2 SM 100's on a 180 reef

[180rftank]

A bit of history first:

Ran a horizontal scrubber with so so results for the last year. Then, about 6 weeks ago, moved the tank to new home, and set up 2 SM 100's after the move was complete. As of right now, I'm getting a lot of yellow and dark growth on the screens. I'm on my 4th cleaning. I had very little algae growth in the main aquarium when I moved it. As of today, I'm getting a lot of algae growth throughout the tank, as well as some red algae in a few places.

Phosphates 3 days ago....07
Phosphates today....03
Nitrates...not detectable
calcium...450
PH...8.15

I've never been able to figure out how to phost pic's, so here is a link to my screen just before cleaning a few minutes ago:

http://s997.photobucket.com/albums/af91/jm2drvr/

[180rftank]

Any help or thoughts would be appreciated. I am in the process of getting all the pieces together for a 450 gal reef tank. I have everything now except the tank, and the hole in the wall where it will be installed. However, I first want to get my 180 up and running successfully with these scrubbers before I start the next project. I plan on using 3 scrubbers for the new tank.

Thanks again for any help, or suggestions.

[SantaMonica]

If you have been cleaning every week, then it looks like the lights are not being left on for 18 hours.

[180rftank]

I confirmed timer set for 18hrs

[SantaMonica]

How much are you feeding?

It looks like nitrates or iron might be limiting. You should have some iron anyways, like Kent's Iron+Manganese, for later when the scrubber is growing bunches. The screen does not have that bright yellow look that usually means lack of iron, but it can't hurt.

For nitrates, you need to find out if they really are "zero", by using another kit, and lfs test. It would be very rare, but if it's the case you can try adding some calcium nitrate from AquariumFertilizer.com, or I can mail you a dose instead. If nitrates were limiting, and you added nitrate, the display algae would increase too for a short bit while the scrubber caught up.

The other way to "add" nitrate is to feed more, which is why I ask how much you are feeding. Feeding adds both nitrate and phosphate, but since you already have plenty of phophate, it does not matter; the nitrate will be brought up from "zero".

So for now get the nitrate tests and a bottle of iron, and count your feedings.

[180rftank]

One thing that I failed to mention is that I have done a few water changes over the last week(90 gal total). As my oldest corals have started to bleach out, I got scared, and the only common sense thing to do when you are dealing with coral loss is water changes to get rid of whatever is killing them. Also, I really havent been feeding all that much. Maybe a few cubes every other day, as well as a bit of reef nutrition phyto feast and oyster feast on the opposite days. All in all, probably average out to 3-4 cubes a day. I have been afraid to feed an more as the red and green algae in the main tank is really starting to bloom. I have already been adding iron for the last couple of weeks. With that being said, is your advice to still get a new nitrate test kit, and feed a bit more?

[SantaMonica]

Well the corals can only eat tiny particles, so the cubes would have to be rotifers to do any good. Hold steady for a week, and let's see pics of the screen before and after cleaning. Make sure all the bulbs are working, and make sure the ON time is not accidentally the OFF time. The screens look exactly like they would look if they were only running 6 hours, or on one bulb.

[180rftank]

Thanks for the advice! The second scrubbers 7th cleaning is due on Saturday, so I will shoot some more pics then.

[180rftank]

Here are a couple of shots of the screen before cleaning on Sat.

http://s997.photobucket.com/upload/albums/jm2drvr/

Test results as of this today...

Phos - .11(previously tested at .03 two days ago)
Nitrates - not detectable
Cal - 450
PH - 8.0

A couple more big chunks of my pink Monty's have bleached out as well. The Monty's use to grow so fast that I would break pieces off and throw them away. There is absolutely no polyp extension for over two weeks on any of the sps corals in the tank. The glass and rocks are really being taken over with GHA. The red algae has almost gone away completely. I have been feeding about 4-6 cubes every other day, as well as phyto feast in between. I have 30 gal of RO mixed and ready to go if anyone thinks or reccomends that I do another water change. I'm sure the question will arrise about flow over the two scurbbers. I am pretty confident that there is at least 700gph for both scrubbers as there is good coverage on the screens, and a good 1.5" of water on the bottom of the scrubbers as well.

[SantaMonica]

Pics did not show.

[180rftank]

oops...here ya go...

http://s997.photobucket.com/albums/af91/jm2drvr/

[SantaMonica]

Well the scrubbers are just now starting to filter; so up untill now there has been no filtering. Nutrients are high, as the phosphate test shows, and all the nitrates are being used up. Looks like it needs iron; you can switch to feeding nori until you get some; nori has lots of iron.

Your moving houses probably killed a few things; that plus no filtering = increase in nuisance algae in display. I'd stop the liquid food for a few weeks, until phosphate starts going down.

[180rftank]

I've been adding iron for about a week now. Will keep adding and give it another week. Should I keep feeding cubes, or just feed nori for a few days?

FYI...just received all my AI LED"S for new tank. I installed 5 of them on the 180 just to see how they are. All I can say is WOW! I've got 3 Lumatec balasts w/ sunbrite fixtures and 2 month old pheonix 14k 250 watt bulbs if anyone is in need. Paid over a grand for all of them, will sell them for 175 each.

[SantaMonica]

If you are adding iron, then that is best; add more slowly until the screen darkens. Watch any soft green corals (especially bubbles)... they seem to be the first to be affected by too much iron.

You might have had phosphate in the rocks, and now it's coming out, which would explain the low nitrate.

[180rftank]

This mornings Phos reading: .33 That's up .20 from a few days ago.

I stopped feeding all liquids, and fed only 8 cubes of rotifers the last two days, along with a little bit of flake food. Should I stop feeding altogether for a couple days or more?

[SantaMonica]

No you should be fine the way it is. Will take several weeks for the scrubbers to catch up.

[180rftank]

This morning's phos reading...back down to .03...kind of strange how it can drop that quickly.

[SantaMonica]

If the scrubbers were growing strong green, they'd be able to make it zero in a few days.

[180rftank]

Most of the red algae is gone, and the green had stopped spreading. Looks as though they the tank is turning a corner. For some reason this last week, my calcium level is off the charts(high). I'm gonna guess around 500-525. I can only guess that with the polyps from all my LPS not extending, no absorbtion was happenning, and therefore the reactor was just dumping calcium in the tank that was not being used. Coralin algae has just started to appear, so maybe that will absorb some of the excess. Does calcium seep into the live rock, and take a long time to dissipate?

[180rftank]

Phos is back up to .40...really haven't been feeding that much at all.

[SantaMonica]

Seems your P tests are varying. Could be coming from the food. Try to measure before you feed.

Calcium does not seep into rock, it only gets used by coralline, hard corals, inverts, etc.

If you are starting to grow coralline, then regardless of what the P test says, the P is going down.

[oildalemonkey]

What are you using to measure your phosphate? Hanna meter?

[180rftank]

Hanah meter

[180rftank]

this morning's reading...

.01

Algae is not growing in main tank, and I see pieces of it floating around as though it's releasing from the rocks. I guess patience at this point is the key, and just let the scurbbers do the work for you.

My calcium level is just wierd right now. I can only think that since I have my reactor dialed way back, that the drip coming out is incredibly high in ca content. I turned my co2 tank off for 4 days, I'm dosing about 1 drip every 15 seconds, and when I test the levels, it's off the chart. Coralin algae has only just started to appear, and pryor to moving, I think that was soaking up most of the calcium that the reactor was puting into the tank.

Koralin 1502 reactor
with additional precision marine affluent chamber

[180rftank]

today's reading..

.03...

No less algae growing on he rocks, but no more that's for sure. Still, minimal polyp extension on all corals, and zero growth... and all other water perameters seem to be perfect now. Calcium level down to 450. I have postponed the in wall construction of the 450 gal tank to see if I can get better results with the scrubbers. Still on the fence. Another month of running the scrubbers then I will have to decide as the new tank is just sitting in garage and I'm getting ancy!

[Floyd R Turbo]

The way you post pics from Photobucket is to go to the album, and mouse over the picture. You will get a pop-up surrounding the pic with a bunch of code links below it. One say "IMG" next to it. Click on the code in the bar and it automatically copies it to your clipboard. Then come back here and paste it "CTRL+V" or right-click, paste. You can also paste the HTML here. Most sites will only allow IMG or will limit to 6 or 8 pics per post. Here it's unlimited.

[Floyd R Turbo]

PS where are you located? PWCs and even topping off with RO/DI during the winter-runoff season can and will cause tank problems. The water is so nasty coming from the water treatment plants that it will even overwhelm an RO/DI system. Happened to me. My LFS does a huge PWC on their 600 right before snow melts, then they wait for 3 months to do the next one, because they lost the entire tank one year.

[SantaMonica]

If removing phosphate (and algae) from the rocks is the goal, it will take many months. The scrubber have to be growing green for several weeks to begin with.

[180rftank]

mission viejo, CA

[180rftank]

Lost another lg piece of Purple Acro that I've had for over 5+ years. Just started to bleach out in one spot, then went quickly shortly thereafter. I am not seeing any growth on any of my sps corals, and zero polyp extension. Here are the latest test results.

Phos...all week between zero and .01
PH...8 - 8.2
Mag...1500
water temp constant 77 degrees.
Salinity...1.025
Nitrates...zero
Calcium...500

Anything I'm missing

[SantaMonica]

Lack of food. Polyps have no need to come out if there are no food particles to get. You'll want to start the coral feeding again when the tank is ready.

[180rftank]

When you say "tank is ready" what does that actually mean. With two SM's, how much should I actually feed?

[SantaMonica]

Ready as in when your nuisance algae problems are gone.

With two 100's I can feed 48 ml/day of thick oysters (about 2X thicker than Oyster Feast), plus 10 square inches of nori a day, plus a dead 3" silverside per week.

[180rftank]

so basically I have to feed just enough right now to keep my sps's alive, while waiting for the rest of the main tank algae to go away. Once the main tank algae is gone, I should be able to increase my fedings. Is that kind of the way it works? Can you give me your recipe for what you are feeding again, and how do you store it?

[SantaMonica]

Pretty much. I always lose corals when I stop feeding.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153)
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1152 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1152)

[180rftank]

Maybe I missed it, but what happens to the food that sits in the tube for a while un-refegerated?

[SantaMonica]

Rots into N and P

[180rftank]

How is this solved...is the only solution to make the tube as short as possible?

[SantaMonica]

Yes. Is not that much really. And the more you can feed, the less time it stays in the tube.

[180rftank]

Over the last couple of days I have lost about 75% of my sps's, some of which I have had for 15 years. I only hope that it was contributed to the lack of food in the tank, and not something else. All water perameters seem perfect other than the Phos jumping back up to .1 from zero, but that is probably due to the fact that I started feeding a bit more. Since most of my corals are bleaching out, I will minimize feeding to really get rid of the algae in the main tank, and then start over with a few sps polyps and see how that goes before starting the new 450 gal tank. My wife is pissed cuz I have a hole in the side of the house for the new tank, but I just can't go forward with setting up the new tank until I am sure the 3 sm100's are the best way to go.

[Floyd R Turbo]

How do you run your AIs? I have read posts from many people that have a large bleaching events like you are describing have the problem when they switch to LEDs, because they crank them way up for too long during the day. One post I read said that they only have them on 100% for about 1 hour/day, and the other 3-4 hours on either side of that is ramp up and ramp down. That in combination with not feeding your corals to try and squeeze out the DT algae could have been a bad combination.

[SantaMonica]

When you move and re-position the rocks, many of the rocks no longer have the same flow or light that they had before. This causes most of the life ("periphyton") on the surface of that rock to die. Although 0.1 is not terribly high, a move is never easy, in combination with new lights. If your phosphate were in control right now, I'd say feed more to offset the bleaching.

[180rftank]

I started the AI's at only 42% in which I was told it's about the same output as a 250w halyde. Three weeks later i'm only up to 50% power, so really doubt that's the issue. I'm pretty much over trying to save anything now. Every SPS has spots that are bleached out now, It's too late to save anything in the tank. Even my 2' x 2' pink tipped 15 year old frogspawn LPS has started to fall apart. Not sure what to do. I know there have been some great success stories with these scrubbers, but I'm surely not one of them.

[180rftank]

What hurts the most, the LFS that I purchased my new 450gal from said "I told you that wouldn't work"...Ouch!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Right, because it had absolutely nothing to do with moving the tank and changing the lights. It was all the scrubber's fault. I'm slamming on the LFS not you. Everyone wants to point a finger but in reality, when something like this happens, it's likely a combination of events that causes it. I just wish we could pin it down, because it sounds like you're doing things right.

I hadn't considered the "life on the surface" issue. I would say you could have some chemical warfare going on as everything sets back into it's relocated home. Might want to run some carbon. I'm not a fan of carbon but it has it's place in temporary situations. Forgive me if you already tried this, didn't have time to read back through the thread. Also you could run some Rowaphos to knock down the P and then start feeding like crazy.

So you fired up 2 brand new SM100s right after the move? What happened to the horizontal scrubber, were you still running that also?

[180rftank]

no, just running the two sm100's. I'm just going to follow SM's advice, and keep trucking along and feed a bit more and see what happens. If feeding a bit more while keeping the levels in check doesn't even things out, I'll have two sm100's for sale here in the next couple of months.

[180rftank]

I've chopped off a few frags from some of the really large pieces of SPS's that were bleaching out at the base. I saved a lrg amount of the tips from my favorite purple tort. Does anyone think that target feeding these frags will help the cause?

[SantaMonica]

Yes it's difficult to identify when there are three big changes at ones. Tank-moves by themselves are enough to devastate a system. The cutting and saving of frags is good; maybe even a temp frag tank with regular lights could be set up.

[180rftank]

tonights phos reading is .16 Been feeding about 1 mil of oyster feast about every 4 hours so I'm sure that what has brought the Phos reading from .03 to .16 in a week. Complete tank wipeout of sps corals. All bleached out. Even the pink monti that I thought was indistructable are bleaching. Now only thing that is left are a few colt corals, some frogspawn frags from the mother piece and that's it. Should I continue feeding even though there is hardly nothing left to feed? Other tank readings...

Just a trace of nitrates
calcium...still a bit high...600
mag...1500
ph...between 8-820

[SantaMonica]

At some point it has to stabilize from the move. This is assuming of course that there is not some other problem like a pest or poison or a penny in the water. And even if a penny or poison, algae/bacteria will remove it eventually, although not in time to save the current corals.

I recently turned off 3 of my 5 powerheads to save energy. The 3 were behind the rocks, pointed down, and did nothing for circulation for corals; they were originally only there to "keeps waste from settling". I did not know at the time that the high flow behind/under the rocks would develop a huge amount of non-photo life back there. When I turned them off, nutrients shot up super high, scrubber growth turned dark, and even some softies started to die/detach. That's how much life ("periphyton") there can be attached to the rocks if they have food and flow and a tiny bit of light.

Also, sps can't "turn into the flow" like a softie can, since it is a hard growth. So in their original orientation in the old tank, they were grown to maximize food collection. But in the new tank, although the lighting is probably fine, the flow is coming from new directions (thus lack of feeding polyps), and the nutrients have increased (from dying periphyton, and dying corals).

Given a choice, you still want to feed, since 0.1 should not kill anything by itself.

[180rftank]

just strange though that a few weeks after the move, everything was back to normal...good polyp extension, sps growth was good, and now a month later everything just died. I do think the lack of feeding may have started the sps loss, but why now that I am feeding more would there be a continued loss?

[SantaMonica]

Well, as with cycling, the biggest nutrient spike comes about a month afterwards. Mine did too. So what I'm saying is that your tank had a mini-cycle.

[180rftank]

I'll post test results in am...some of my completely bleached out acro's are showing signs of coming back. However, the algae in the tank is also returning. I'll test in the morning and post results. It does look like about 95% of the sps corals are gone for good though.

[180rftank]

Phos .11
nitrates...not detectable
Was feeding about 8 mil of oyster feast a day, gonna cut back to 4 mil. Not a lot of growth in scrubber. Both screens are covered, but really slow growth.

[SantaMonica]

Pics of tank algae if you can

[180rftank]

I'll get some pics up tonight(hopefully)...been outa control busy at work. I do have another question. Is anyone out there using biopellet's in conjunction with a scrubber. I was thinking since I have been having limited success(if you can call it that) with scrubbers, maybe I could do one scrubber on my new 450gal tank, in conjunction with a biopellet reactor. The reading I have been doing on them seems to be very positive.

[180rftank]

Pics of Algae coming back strong in tank. This is a shot of only two different rocks, but this stuff is popping up everywhere.

This AM readings:
Phos....02
Nitrate...not detectable
calcium...575
PH...8.0

The only thing left alive are some really fat fish(yellow tang, blue tang, gobies, file fish) and some zoos that really don't open up all the way, and a piece of bubble coral. Everything else is dead. I have only been feading about 4 mil of liquid food per day. I'm about to go postal haha!!! :evil: :o

http://s997.photobucket.com/albums/af91/jm2drvr/

[SantaMonica]

That's some thick algae on the rocks. That's why tests looks good. Unfortunately that rock-algae is getting to the nutrients as they come out of the rocks, before the scrubber does. And the nutrients got to the corals first too, since they were attached to the rocks. Your tanks is going through a pretty big cycle, sort of like mine is since I removed 3 of the powerheads from behind the rocks... mine is going on three months of cycling. All the dead stuff will need to rot and dissolve out of the insides of the rocks before it will start getting better. When your scrubbers start growing thick green, you will know that the cycle is ending. You can't really tell from the tests.

Cycles like these (from tank moves, or from changing powerhead flow) can be worse than new-tank cycles, because the rocks have had time to grow lots of things inside and on them.

[180rftank]

continue to feed, don't feed? Water change? I can do a 30gal water change and siphon a lot of this algae right off the rocks without loosing any of the algae back inside the tank.

[maglofster]

About running in conjunction with biopellets. I have that running in my two tanks. I'm starting to think that growth is affected when I'm not feeding a large amount of food everyday. It seems like the BP:s are competing with the algae and the algae looses (with slower growht as a result) at least in one of my tanks where I have a very oversized scrubber (flow, wattage and screen rated for 1800 liter - tank is 600 liter). So this weekend I'm thinking about removing the BP:s.

[itzrulez]

magofster please post your setup?

[SantaMonica]

I'd say leave it the way you have it. You are not feeding much, and waterchanges just remove the food. As your tests showed, the water was fine (although you could test for ammonia if you want). The algae on the rocks will get to the ammonia hopefully before it gets to the remaining corals... sort of an on-site scrubber. Eventually it will go away, and be replaced by scrubber algae. Come to think of it, maybe some Prime or similar might help... to remove the ammonia before the ammonia can get to the corals.