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worley
02-09-2009, 03:06 PM
I would like some feedback on this design I've just come up with.
This is all completely perfectly to scale.
The tank is 72"x24"x24" (6ft x 2ft x 2ft)
http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design1.png
There is a central weir in the middle of the tank at the back, with combs around the top to stop things falling in.
There are two Durso standpipes inside the weir, to help stop rushing water noises and siphoning.
The water goes down these two pipes into one pipe then along through a 20" pipe/screen that becomes the algae scrubber (the green line is the screen from the side).
The scrubber is inside a small, thin tank (22" long x 4" wide x 18" tall) that is placed sideways across the tank, with a 12"x20" screen lit from both sides (lights not pictured, I may have to move it a bit further away from the sump).
the water then overflows through the pipe into the sump and then pumped back out into the tank through the central weir.
I'm looking at a 3500l/h pump, which ought to give 3000l/hour with the head it has to pump it back, giving 150l/h per inch (wow there's a mix of units!) = 40 us g/h per inch

Am I crazy? is there an easier way to fit the algae scrubber in to this design?
My other half is insisting that there are glass covers on the sump to stop condensation/wood rotting in the cabinet as it's solid pine.

Would it be easier to get rid of this first tank, move the sump over, have the algae scrubber screen just hanging over the first part of the sump and make the sump 22" wide??
I really want to stop any splashing or leaking

worley
02-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Just another note, the durso standpipes at 1.5" pipework, are rated to cope with 1500l/hour, so two work perfectly for this setup

worley
02-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Ok, I think I've come up with a more sensible idea... :D
http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design2.png
There is now only one tank in the cabinet, no holes to drill in them either.
There is one set of lights inside the sump, but the area it is in is sealed off and dry, and angled so that there is easy access to the lights if needed.
The overall sump is now much larger at 36" long, 22" wide and 12" tall, but with two panels of glass to protect against splashing

zoa
02-09-2009, 04:39 PM
I like where you are going with this idea. If it were mine I would keep the drains separet. That way if one clogs the other will take the load. If that should ever happen it will not be quite about it so you will know right off there is something wrong.

If however you do decide to keep it the way you have it I would make the section where the two pipes come together bigger. There will be a lot of turbulance there and could creat noise.

What does 1500 l/h make in us. 375-400GPH??

worley
02-09-2009, 05:08 PM
1500l/h = 400 us gal/h roughly

And here we go with another redesign...

http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design4.png

With this design, the two drains are kept separate, with two screens. Because of this, the screens can be 10" wide each, giving the redundancy you suggested too. Also this brings the size of the sump down to 24" long by 12" wide by 18" tall.
The reason the tank is now in the middle is as my other half pointed out, the standard cabinet we're getting has drawers in the middle, where a lot of the support for the tank is held, the sump would also have to fit within a 30" double door area on the right:

http://www.bossaquariums.co.uk/images/tasmancutLW.jpg

The above is made by the same company that I'm ordering from, they bought up a pine furniture company a few years back and make some pretty nice looking tanks at a good price. Not to keen on the colour they have there though.

The only issue is that it's tricky to get to the lights (I'll probably have them on a wooden frame that can be pulled out, but I'd need to pull the whole sump out to do it.

Last issue with this design, how would you recommend we do some sort of mechanical (e.g. foam pads) filtration?

zoa
02-09-2009, 06:02 PM
You could add some bubble traps just after the scrubbers. You are going to loose the ability to have pods go to the display. If you do the rock work right you could breed them up there.


I should add, I really like that design.

SantaMonica
02-09-2009, 08:34 PM
The twin screen is the way to go, since you are doing it from scratch. I see a little trouble getting the screen out of their for cleaning however.

I'd really use no foam pads at all. They defeat a major purpose of the scrubber (keeping food in the water). Remember that N and P will no longer be a problem; that's what most people used foam for before.

kcress
02-09-2009, 11:12 PM
The two TS make more sense to me in the setup you show. SM has a good point, you will need to think about removing the screens in a completely hassle free manner. Not sure you have that covered yet.

worley
02-10-2009, 02:08 AM
Hassle free would be ideal, but I can't quite get the design for that yet lol.
My girlfriend pointed out that we could have the front panel on the sump only 12" high, leaving the top 6" exposed, and giving slightly easier access to the screens. Access in this way is similar to my current scrubber, and it is awkward. I normally cut the cable ties and let the whole screen slide down and pull it from underneath, which would work in this design too, but it's far from completely hassle free.

Can anyone else suggest a design for the two ATS that allows the lights to be close, but protected and eliminate splashing issues?
The other nice thing about the two ATS setup is that the screens will be the same size that mine currently is, hopefully, with more water flow!

Santamonica: Well I'm jumping in the deep end with this tank! I'm going to completely remove all other forms of filtration apart from liverock/sand, this should make a very interesting experiment. There will also be no skimmer from the start.

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 03:25 AM
Don't worry it will run fine. Just keep your standard things nearby in case needed.

As far as screen size, over-size it now while you are in the design phase, by making each screen large enough to operate by itself. Also, giving each screen it's own feed (overflow), and drain, allows one screen to run continuously no matter what you are doing to the other one.

Why not make a slimline acrylic unit? A twin-screen verision of mine. I'm designing a twin now too, since I'm tired of my single filtering less after each cleaning. An acrylic unit would save you a lot of space, and would eliminate splashing, spraying, excess light, sound, etc. It would be 24" long, 12" deep, and 7" high. Leave the top on to eliminate cooling/evap, or take the top off and use a fan.

worley
02-10-2009, 03:26 AM
Turns out that the company is really quiet at the moment for orders and they happen to be coming down our way next week (was expecting 1 month :o )
They're based in Scotland and we're as far away as you can get in the south of England, so it's a long way in UK terms :lol:
They can't make it for some time after that, so I need to finalise the design for the sump ASAP.
There's one more issue, there's only 21" of height inside the cabinet, and it's really expensive to increase the height.
Any fast, bright ideas, would be hugely welcome!

worley
02-10-2009, 03:29 AM
I would go acrylic if I could, but it's really tough to get hold of in the UK, and it's really expensive, on a tight budget here, so want to go glass if I can.
There is however, the same space in the cabinet on the left too (26" long, 21" high, 22" front to back)

worley
02-10-2009, 03:38 AM
Stats of the tank for calculation purposes:
Tank size: 72"x24"x24"
Tank Capacity (filled up to 22" without liverock or sand):
Litres: 623
US Gal: 164.6
UK Gal: 137.1

2x ATS screens: 10" wide by 12" long
Total area: 240 square inches, lit from both sides

Pump: Aqua Medic Ocean Runnner OR3500, 3500 l/hour at 0 head. (942 us gal/hour)
Roughly 3000l/hour at 1.5m head (792 us gal/hour)
Total length of screens: 20", estimated flow per inch: 150l/hour (40 us gal/hour)

Hopefully that would make the right flow (35 gal/hour) over the screens and oversized on square inches of screen.

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 03:56 AM
Well it could be made out of glass, or plastic. Or it could be made and shipped to you.

I just measured mine, and I can get my screen out with only 12" from top-of-sump to bottom-of-obstruction (for me, fan.)

Once you decide to go into the left cabinet, that changes everything.

worley
02-10-2009, 04:06 AM
Any ideas with the left cabinet?
I was hoping not to have another pump, just using the overflow from the tank to have it as efficient as possible and purpose built for the ATS.

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 04:16 AM
Just elevate a shallow tank on the left side. You can do 35 gph per inch, and thus make the screens wider but not as tall. Strive for wide but not tall. Separate overflows for each screen, with a valve to shut one or the other off, so you can work on the other. (each overflow should handle all the flow by itself). Then this shallow tank drains into sump.

If you custom-make this shallow tank, you can shape it around the screens, and thus put the two outside lights on the outside of the tank. Only the middle light would go inside the tank. Or, use two separate tanks, with a light in the middle, and the other two lights on the outsides.

worley
02-10-2009, 05:11 AM
Think I'm following you, don't suppose you could draw a quick diagram of what you mean?
Thanks.

worley
02-10-2009, 05:38 AM
http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design5.png

Something like this?
The issues I can see with this design are:
You have to move the support under the glass boxes that contain the scrubber, then move the glass boxes down to reveal the mesh.
Each of the glass boxes need to be connected to a drain pipe that would then go back into the sump on the right, meaning that there would need to be two big holes and tank connectors/bulkheads on the bottom of each of the glass boxes, then those would have to be disconnected when cleaning the screen. That makes for a fair bit of plumbing to make sure doesn't leak each time you clean the screens.
Lastly, it'll be tough to drill 2 inch holes in the glass close to the edges

worley
02-10-2009, 06:55 AM
Can anyone give me an idea on what sized pipes can handle what flow from gravity feed, e.g. would a 1" pipe cope with say 2000l / hour (500 us gal/hour) just from a gentle slope with a small amount of back-pressure from the water at the bottom of the ATS?
How about max capacity gravity fed for 1.5" and 3/4" pipes?
I can't seem to find this data anywhere on the net! I'm sure someone has done some tests somewhere.

cyberseer
02-10-2009, 07:50 AM
1" pipe will give 600g/h pressureized and straight down. on your design, with all those bends, and gravity feed, it should get about 200 or so, give or take some. 1.5" at full will handle 1000 g/h, so you might get about 400 g/h.

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 09:29 AM
Yes that's the design I was thinking. The glass boxes don't have to be all the way up like that; they only need to catch the water at the bottom... maybe 3 or 4" deep. So you just disconnect a union at the pipe, lift up and pull out. And you could put only one hole in each box; then for backup, set the whole scrubber in a plastic bin that drains to the sump.

worley
02-10-2009, 09:38 AM
400 gal = 1500 l, so that sounds just right, I had read that the durso standpipes at 1.5" with 1.5" bulkheads can cope with 1500l/hour.
Thanks!
Next problem is a UK unique problem...
Fish tank equipment almost exclusively comes from Europe, so tank bulkheads are all in metric, as are the pipes, e.g. 40mm instead of 1.5". Which means the pipes don't quite fit properly unless you get metric pipes too.
It appears none of the local plumbing merchants have any bulkheads, they all have tank connectors, which allow a pipe to go into the tank, but not to put another pipe on the other side.
I think I'm going to have to order all the pipes and connectors online, in metric, but at least they have the external measurements of the bulkheads so I can order the tank with the right size holes.

kcress
02-10-2009, 01:58 PM
Oh, hey, I've got it! You're struggling with the issue of vertical constraints. Your last picture is crazy cumbersome. It also reeks havoc with your under tank cupboard space.

Make your screen sloped slightly or horizontal. If it is flat horizontal you can deliver the water straight onto the center. and the screen will be uniformly awash. Shine the light on from the top. (One sided) This could cover most of the top of your sump.

Alternatively you can slope it at, say, ten degrees. Have the water hit it on the left in your first sketch. It then washes down to the right end of your sump. The sump flows to the left where the return pump picks it up and sends it back up to the tank.

I'd just use a piece of some sort of plastic, you'd want three sides on it. One on the left and two down the sides so the water is diked on it and only falls off the right end. They wouldn't have to be much. Maybe an inch or two. These three sides would lend stiffness to the entire thing. You could arange it so the you just pull it out sideways like a drawer, sort of. The overflow could then just fall onto the left end of the sump or I'd shut off the pump, and and once flow has stopped pull the screen for service. This would be trivial to make from acrylic. Or you might find some consumer device that would work, perhaps a TV tray that you cut one end off of.

You could then use any number of light types. Spots or long linear tubes.

worley
02-10-2009, 05:03 PM
Genius! Well thought, I just did some quick calculations...
The current design would give 2 screens that are 10" wide by 12" long, giving 120 square inches on each side, so 480 square inches

Now, the cabinet has space for a 24" tank that is 20" front to back and 15" high with pleny of room to get in (6"). That gives enough room for a 20"x24" screen on a slope and, guess what? that's 480 square inches of lit screen (or equivilant to 240 square inches lit from both sides).
Same area, much more room to work in, easier to maintain, less piping, can remove the screen and still have the water running, plus still have useable space in the sump.

I was about to post another minor change to the previous design, that involves having the side of the ATS that was covered in glass taken down to just 4" off the bottom and the top piece that was cut could be clamped on to the glass and removed and the screen pulled out when needed.
However, the sloped screen idea (I am awear others have tried it), solves so many issues!
Thanks, I'm all overjoyed now! :lol:

I guess my last issue is how to light it, it's a little tough to find those massive CFL bulbs that are inside a reflector over the pond here in the UK. I do still have all those CFL bulbs from my current tank, but would like something that looks neat.

worley
02-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Got another idea to make this tank that much more awesome!
I'm going to get the company building the tank to build two of the sump tanks (24" long x 20" wide x 15" high) and have the other in the left hand part of the cabinet.
I'm going to get a float valve and place it at the normal water level in the sump on the right, and reuse the peristaltic pump (currently feeding the ATS sump) to do fresh water top-offs!

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Ok, about the sloped design: It has been tried, correct, but there have been no success reports yet. Snail got about as far as anyone did with his LED version. They are space-saving, yes, but they add extra variables which most DIY folks have trouble overcoming. Sagging screens cause puddling; slower water flow decreases efficiency; algae clumps re-direct water flow. I'm sure it can be made to work, but you'd be doing the experimenting for us :)

About the size: Sloped screens are always one-sided, because water will not flow down the bottom side, once algae starts growing. So you have two 10 X 12 screens = 240 sq inches lit one side. Your tank is 160g, which needs 160 sq inches lit both sides, or 360 sq inches lit one side. So I show that you'd be lacking in area. You'd probably be able to get by with 4 days between cleanings, with that size, if of course the sloped design worked as planned.

kcress
02-10-2009, 07:12 PM
SM; If you recall ol' Adey had his screens all slightly sloped,(horizontal), and he used them for aquaculture. So I suspect they will work just fine. Sure they're one sided. But they can cover a larger area without vertical issues. With a three sided acrylic structure they can be tilted backwards and carried to a sink without all the dripping water or the need for a pail that vertical screens cause/need.. A flexible screen would, I agree, be folly.

SantaMonica
02-10-2009, 08:20 PM
Yes most of his were sloped, but the aquaculture ones were dumping designs, and splashed a lot. It's not known how or if an overflow-fed version would splash. It certainly would be a function of the algae that built up directly where the water hits the screen. I guess I see a potential problem in the vacinity right around where the water hits; sort of a metering issue. Since the flow is radially outwards, a small algae blockage near that spot will radiate out and expand. With a "normal" vertical pipe, any blockage only takes out the path directly below it; it does not expand as it flows down. I also have to wonder why there have not been success reports yet. Many have tried them... probably ten... but they never reported back. I hope it does indeed work. I just think that right now they are in the same category that LEDs are, experimental.

worley
02-11-2009, 02:49 AM
Santamonica: you missed the point, I can fit a 24"x20", so 480 square inches lit on one side (same surface area as the other design) by putting it sloped into a large sump.
I guess I could always increase the slope to get a higher water flow, and attach the screen at the top to make sure it doesn't slide/ruck up, and place the old screen on top of it to seed it.
Also with the outlet, I'm going to heat up some plastic 1.5" piping until it softens then squash it slightly so it forms a flatter shape so the water comes out in a sheet, then direct it at the top of the screen using a 45 degree bend, and do the same for both of feeds, this should give an even flow without too much in one point.
Also, I don't believe the actual speed of the water makes much difference to algae growth, for instance, I get about the same growth at the bottom of my screen as I do at the top. What does make a huge difference is the volume of water that flows per second, which doesn't change from the top to the bottom, e.g. at the top of the screen you'd get a higher volume flowing slower, and at the bottom you'd get a thinner sheet of water flowing faster, so same overall flow (otherwise water is coming from nowhere).
So as long as I can get these nozzles to spread the water over the screen evenly and direct the water at 45 degrees so that it's already flowing in that direction (as apposed to just dumping water down vertically on the top of the slope).
Using the nozzles should also effectively eliminate most clogging issues with algae growing (of course, it'll need to be cleaned but not as often as it would if it were touching the screen)

worley
02-11-2009, 03:31 AM
This is what I had in mind (and hopefully what kcress was thinking too!):
http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design-7.png

and the ATS part:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/img/worley-tank-design-7-detail.png

Obviously, I'm going to need to sort something out for the lighting :D

SantaMonica
02-11-2009, 06:38 AM
Ahh 480 is much better. And flowing from the top is better too. You still can isolate each overflow/screen if you want; just put a divider down the middle. It's great to not have to turn the return pump off when cleaning :)

Looks like this is a job for T5s. Probably similar bulbs to mine: 24", 24W (bulbs are physically less than 22" long). 2 per screen (4 total) for low power; this is what I have on my 5" screen. 3 per screen (6 total) for medium power; 4 per screen (8 total) for high power.

worley
02-11-2009, 07:55 AM
wow, that is a lot of light!
I may get a mirror of similar size to the screen and silicon the T5 connectors on to it then suspend the mirror and lights as close to the screen as possible. Being fish tank lights they ought to be easily splash proof.

kcress
02-11-2009, 12:34 PM
Yep, I think that is just what you need!

The deeper you need the sump water the less angle you'd use.

Those are the exact bulb type I was thinking of too. You should find some reflector fixture with those in it.
Remember SM's two strapped on fixtures? I'm thinking those are that type.

Hey SM where'd you get those?

Go forth and learn for us worley! :mrgreen:

SantaMonica
02-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Here are the lighting units:

http://www.marineandreef.com/Nova_Extre ... u01127.htm (http://www.marineandreef.com/Nova_Extreme_T5_Aquarium_Lighting_Current_USA_p/rcu01127.htm)

And here are the replacement bulbs:

http://www.marineandreef.com/ProductDet ... 8&CartID=1 (http://www.marineandreef.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RCU02118&CartID=1)

worley
02-12-2009, 11:03 AM
I have the option of making my screen 30-36" long by 20" wide, does the angle that it slopes by make a big difference, as if I put it at 30 degrees or so, I should be able to fit a much longer screen.
There has been a slight change of plans as one of the guys in the company decided to build the cabinet without getting confirmation, so the sump has to go in the middle of the cabinet, however, they've made room for a 36" long, 22" wide and 15" high sump, so I can now fit a pretty huge 30-36" long by 20" wide screen in there!

kcress
02-12-2009, 01:48 PM
As SM sez within this group of hobbyists we can't tell you absolutely that the slope makes no difference. It is probably safe to say it does make some[/] sort of difference. Will it make a [i]big difference? I doubt it it. When I look around in the ocean,(I spend a lot of time at the ocean) (8 blocks away) I see turf on all sorts of things, many of them (nae-most of them) horizontal.

The biggest difference with horizontal is you will need less flow to cover the surface. Much less. Of course this will deliver less changing water to the turf below it but no one is really clear on how much nutrient is actually drawn out of the moving water each pass of that 'block of water'. From a hydraulic point of view slower water should represent closer to the surface flow exchange which would be a good thing but conversely less agitation which is probably a less desirable thing.

What is going to happen is the turf is either going to do marginally better or marginally worse. The Adey TSs were horizontal but the water was passed across them in bursts. I'm not sure if this was because he was trying to duplicate nature - where the ocean in constant turmoil washes across things in a random matter - or he actually found that it improved nutrient take up. Beats me at this point. Ultimately I think I'd rather have a horizontal unit as is it is a better fit under an aquarium, so I am wishing you much success and would my self proceed down this horizontal path.

So it will work it is just a matter of square inches per gallon possibly being different by some percentage. You might keep in mind that if you want to give surge flow a try (in the future) to keep some space under your setup that you could fit one of the nice auto siphon units I've seen in this forum. Another words don't consume every inch of your under-tank area with just screen.

worley
02-12-2009, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the advice Kcress, I think I may have already consumed all the the space by getting a sump that is the maximum size that would physically fit in the cabinet. There are, however, drawers on each side, that could be altered one day if needed.
I don't think I'm going to go for horizontal, however, I will go with a pretty shallow slope, so there is at least a direction of flow of water, but I will probably make it to suit the sump, to maximise screen area, to make it easier for lighting and keep a reasonable amount of water in the sump.

I can actually see on my scrubber, where there are areas that don't receive as much flow as others there is little growth, but this could equally be due to the fact that it wasn't submerged in water, I may experiment with different slopes to see how it affects growth.
It would be useful to have two screens that can be sloped independantly to get a more fair comparison.

I like to be as scientific as possible about these sorts of things :D

SantaMonica
02-12-2009, 06:16 PM
Make it adjustable. Use a flex pipe to connect to the slot pipe.

worley
02-23-2009, 03:10 AM
Great news!
The tank + cabinet + hood + sump turned up on Saturday!!
Really nice looking tank, with black silicon on the front and the cabinet is really great in real solid pine.
They built it in the first design with the sump in the middle under the weir, so I'm going to need to be a little creative to get the overflow in the direction I want, but not too hard. Also means shorter pipes needed, so that's good.
I shall post some pics shortly, also made some of my fake liverock, came out reasonably for a first attempt lol.

worley
02-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Ok first real issue.
The sump pump is on it's way (Eheim Compact + 5000 sump pump - 2500 to 5000 l/hour adjustable - 660 - 1320 us gal/hour).
I decided to go for a higher flow pump due to the many angles needed on the return pipework, which would recude the flow rate.
However, the pump has a 25mm (1") outlet, that fits eheim 25/33mm flexible hose, and the aquamedic ocean runner 3500 I was looking at uses 3/4".
The problem is that the return pipe hole in the weir is 30mm to fit a 3/4" bulkhead (the holes cut had to be in 5mm steps), and a 1" bulkhead has an external diameter of 32mm, so it's just 1mm too wide all the way around.
Should I risk trying to enlarge the hole?
Should I stay with 3/4" pipework from the weir up and use some sort of adaptor to step it down from 1" hose (I've got 2m of 25/33mm hose on it's way too).
I'm guessing I'm going to lose a whole lot of flow by stepping it down, let alone using 1 T piece and 4 right angles on the weir side (I could get away with a Y adaptor and 6 45 degree angles instead).
Need lots of ideas ASAP as the pump is arriving in around 12 hours and only have a bit longer to put an order in for 1" pipe to get here before the weekend, as none of the pumbing wholesalers suply 1" pipework (as it's not a standard sized pipe for plumbers, it's 3/4" or 1 1/4").
Thanks in advance guys :D

SantaMonica
02-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Wish I could help. Only thing I know is 35gph at the slot.

kcress
02-26-2009, 02:57 AM
Ah man... 3/4" for an overflow is seriously anemic. Sorry to hear.
What happened to the 1-1/2" Durso(s)?

Maybe I'm confused.

Is this glass or acrylic? Both can be enlarged.
It's easier with the right tools. But you can do a hack job too. (Dremel tool)
You should have two overflows one that is you overflow and one that is the backup.

Ah I see you are talking the return.. Here's the deal: don't sweat a narrow pipe a few inches long. The water just cranks up its speed briefly but the actually head loss is not too bad on a very short piece. Can you run 1" up to the fitting then the 3/4" then back to 1"? If you can try to use fittings that are smooth inside, giving a non-abrupt transition, and you will reduce any head loss even more.

worley
02-26-2009, 03:00 AM
Sorry, think you did get mixed up :D, the 3/4" or 1" pipe issue is the return pipe from the sump pump.
The overflow is still the 2x 1.5" Dursos.
Yeah, the trouble is finding 1" fittings, so to get a 1" to 3/4" adaptor is trouble enough let alone to find one with a smooth transition lol

worley
02-26-2009, 03:06 AM
If I wanted to enlarge the hole, How would I enlarge the hole with a Dremel, and which tool should I use?
Also, how safe is it?
I'll post a photo in a sec of the holes/weir plus the rest =)

kcress
02-26-2009, 03:36 AM
Yeah lets see a photo! BTW I'm off to bed. now!(3:30AM)

worley
02-26-2009, 05:27 AM
Tank without hood, before it was set down:
[attachment=6:2v8qriad]TOM_5254.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

The two holes for the 1.5" bulkhead/durso standpipes on either side with the 30mm hole for the 3/4" feed pipe in the middle:
[attachment=5:2v8qriad]TOM_5256.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

Sump cupboard in the middle under the weir:
[attachment=4:2v8qriad]TOM_5260.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

With huge(ish) sump (36"x22"x18"):
[attachment=3:2v8qriad]TOM_5261.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

Overall tank with the polystyrene under the tank for protection and the nice open hood on:
[attachment=2:2v8qriad]TOM_5263.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

The absolutely tiny Eheim Compact+ 5000 sump pump (look at the size compared to the plug!) and the giant 25/34mm Eheim pipe:
[attachment=1:2v8qriad]TOM_5291.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

The hosetail adaptor that came with the pipe:
[attachment=0:2v8qriad]TOM_5296.jpg[/attachment:2v8qriad]

worley
02-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Well, I've bitten the bullet...
I've ordered a 35mm glass diamond hole cutter from a local shop, nice and cheap too, and will be here tomorrow.
I talked to the manufacturer who built the tank, and they told me to just turn the tank upside down, put the diamond cutter over the hole, only press very lightly and keep it constantly wet.
Now, I've cut a 45mm hole in 12mm glass before, and several smaller 6mm holes for the algae scrubber sump's "overflow", and I know fairly well how to do it...
Very slowly! and constant stream of water to keep it cool.

I've also ordered a 25mm bulkhead and all the fittings and piping all over again in 25mm!
I couldn't get a Y adaptor, so I've got what's called a 45 degree T:
http://www.fishfurfeather.com/images/fff/t-pipe45.jpg
The feed will go from the bottom then split into two pipes, and I'm using a 45 elbow to make two parallel pipes that will then come out of the weir and point in different directions.
I may end up getting a valve to control the flow rate coming out of the top so they are both equal.

kcress
02-26-2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the pics!

Wow that's a lot of holes in a small area.... Drilling that out is a little scary from here.

Go very very slowly. Also you need to make a guide. None of this hold it where you want it BS.

Drill a hole in a piece of wood the size of your hole saw or saw a square in a piece of wood that your hole saw will barely fit in. Clamp or duck tape it in place and have it guide your hole saw.

Alternatively use the 3/4" as the emergency overflow and just use one of the Durso holes for your return.

worley
02-27-2009, 04:57 AM
Thanks for the idea with the wood to keep it still, I shall be trying that =)
The glass hole cutter should be at the shop shortly, so I'm going to pick that up later, then I need to put the tank upside down (no small job!) and cut it out.
I've got all the 25mm (0.4mm under 1") pipework, tank connectors, swept bends, 45 degree Ts etc in the post and should hopefully be here tomorrow (but Royal Mail first class delivery has a way of turning up after 2 days rather than 1!)
I had also ordered a load of blue acrylic to go inside the tank and be siliconned on to the back, as well as around the outside the weir with the comb teeth built into the same piece of plastic that the weir "fronting" (not really backing is it?) will be made out of. They're also bending it into one solid piece around the outside of the weir, so no visible joints =).
If everything goes to plan and i have the right plumbing connectors and they all turn up tomorrow I should be able to silicon everything in tomorrow and fill the tank on Sunday or Monday =).
Hopefully I don't have to count this as a water change as I'm enlarging the tank, so all the water from the old tank will make up just under 50% of the water in the new one.

worley
02-27-2009, 12:03 PM
The 35mm Diamond Holesaw, with grooves to pull water in:
[attachment=1:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5304.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]
Tank, upside down, on the floor with towels in the weir to catch the water. (Big thanks to my neighbors Paul and Neil for helping me move the tank again!!)
I've used a jug of water (about 1 litre of water was needed) to keep the glass and drill bit cool to stop cracking.
[attachment=5:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5299.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]
Lined up the new hole with the guide that came with the holesaw (cut slightly to the left as the original hole wasn't in the middle):
[attachment=4:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5300.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]
Used some airline with a small knot in to get about 2 drips of water per second close to the holesaw:
[attachment=3:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5301.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]
Drilling the hole... ZzZzZz...
ZzZzZz... you have to be patient, it took 30 minutes to cut this hole (10mm thick glass), I put virtually no pressure on it at all, just used the weight of the drill, and right at the end even took most of the weight of the drill so it was barely touching so it didn't chip the glass as it came out the other side...
[attachment=0:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5303.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]
Sucess!! Hardly any chipping, in fact, a better cut than the original :lol:
[attachment=2:1v3b2dp5]TOM_5302.jpg[/attachment:1v3b2dp5]

Next step... The acryllic backing / weir cover / overflow comb (all in one) is turning up tomorrow, so I'll be siliconing that to the back/weir, giving it 24 hours, while doing the plumbing, and then I ought to be able to fill the tank on Sunday!!!
Horraahh!
Only thing I'm lacking now is the lights for the algae scrubber, still not 100% decided on what to go for.

kcress
02-27-2009, 12:10 PM
Came with a guide!!

Excellent cut there buddy!

worley
02-27-2009, 02:32 PM
Thanks, I've cleaned it and it looks pretty good.
Looking forward to the plumbing and backing turning up tomorrow!

worley
02-28-2009, 02:26 AM
As expected, this being England, companies can't do what their supposed to do, the acrylic backing and weir cover/comb turned up today.
The side panels for the back of the tank, either side of the weir were fine. The weir cover was a perfect fit around the oustide of it, beautifuly CNCed... however it was only 1" front to back instead of 6"!!!
The company is going to re-CNC the piece on Monday for delivery on Tuesday... Apparently the guy who CNCed it put the wrong dimensions into the computer and the drawing they had for the order was correct. Oh well, looks like I'm not filling the tank tomorrow afterall.
I'm off to go pick up the pipework that has just arrived, lets hope they sent the right parts at least!
Back to plumbing and making fake liverock with cement lol!

worley
03-02-2009, 09:15 AM
Well nearly finished the plumbing, forgot I didn't want to glue the return pipework to the bulkhead, so just waiting on a socket -> glued connector tomorrow. I've finished most of the rest of the pipework apart from the drain pipe that'll feed the screen.

This is where I've just realised something. Do correct me if I'm wrong here Santamonica:
Because this will be a single sided screen water will be flowing over one side of the screen only, normally in the original ATS design the water is split 50/50 between the front and back, so, should the 35gal/hour (132l/hour) be 17.5 (66l/hour) for a single side, as that would produce the same flow that a single side on a normal design would get?

In this case, my 22" wide single sided screen should need a minimum 385 us gal/hour or 1452l/hour?
The sump pump I've got does 5000 litres per hour, it however only coped with around 3500 litres/hour after having a 6ft x 1" (internal diameter) flexible hose put on the end, after going through all the complex pipework I'm expecting to get more like 2500 out of it.
If this is the case, I should have a fair amount more flow than I actually need, which isn't a bad thing unless it pushes the algae off, but I don't think it will.
I've tested my nifty spray outlet and it works nicely, will post some pics (put a short piece of pipe over the oven's hob until it went slightly soft and used some pliers to flatten the pipe)

SantaMonica
03-02-2009, 12:11 PM
You are theoretically correct about the split flow. But, a vertical screen has all the flow moving across the bottom; a horizontal screen might divide the flow to all edges of the screen; thereby reducing the flow at any given edge point. If this is the case, higher flow might be needed for a horizontal. You'll find out easily: After there is thick growth, if the flow is too low, clumps will block any flow from getting around it and downstream of it, and the downstream areas will turn into the yellow plastic stuff.

worley
03-02-2009, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I should be doing it at about a 30 degree slope, so it ought to flow fairly well, so I should still have more than enough flow, yay!

kcress
03-02-2009, 09:20 PM
I think so too. As the water will want to dwell more too not being gravity driven to run off quite as fast. You will also get a deeper penetration of the turf with the water because part of the gravitational vector is pulling the water into the screen.

You may be rewriting the flow spec in the FAQ for horizontal screens!

worley
03-03-2009, 04:02 AM
Well I hope you guys wanted some photos, as I've pretty thoroughly documented this lot! (apologies in advance! :D)
[attachment=19:1pc4o38a]TOM_5306.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=18:1pc4o38a]TOM_5307.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=17:1pc4o38a]TOM_5309.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=16:1pc4o38a]TOM_5314.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=15:1pc4o38a]TOM_5316.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=14:1pc4o38a]TOM_5317.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=13:1pc4o38a]TOM_5319.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=12:1pc4o38a]TOM_5320.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=11:1pc4o38a]TOM_5325.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=10:1pc4o38a]TOM_5327.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=9:1pc4o38a]TOM_5328.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=8:1pc4o38a]TOM_5329.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=7:1pc4o38a]TOM_5330.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=6:1pc4o38a]TOM_5331.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=5:1pc4o38a]TOM_5333.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=4:1pc4o38a]TOM_5334.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=3:1pc4o38a]TOM_5335.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=2:1pc4o38a]TOM_5337.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=1:1pc4o38a]TOM_5347.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]
[attachment=0:1pc4o38a]TOM_5354.jpg[/attachment:1pc4o38a]

kcress
03-03-2009, 12:47 PM
Nice! Thanks for the foto book!

worley
03-04-2009, 06:19 PM
Nearly there!
I'm filling the tank now directly from the RO/DI unit with 40ft of piping on the end of the outlet pipe, straight into the tank lol.
It's only filled 6" of water in around 12 hours, so it's likely to take a few days to half fill the tank, then I'll mix the salt, heat the water and put a powerhead inside, then pump the water across the room from the old tank.
Nearly finished the plumbing in the sump for the algae scrubber, not 100% sure the outlets are going to give an even enough spray over the screen, but shouldn't be too bad.
Next job is to get the glass cut to hold the panel of glass at an angle to support the screen, should get that done tomorrow, then the very last job is to get some powerful lights for the screen!
I'll probably run the tank without the lights, or some temporary lights for a few days while I sort it out and have the old scrubber that's still in the loft, connected via the 60ft of RO pipework =)
P.S. I just did a scientific test on the waterflow from the sump pump to the tank through all that 25mm (3/4" internal diameter) pipework.
I placed the pump with pipe in a bucket next to the sump, at the same height, I added water into it until it just covered the pump.
I then got another bucket, filled it up to the 10 litre mark, and added that to the bucket with the pump. Timed 15 seconds from the time the pump kicked in to drain 10 litres down to the same height (just above the top of the pump).
10 litres / 15 sec = 2/3 l per sec = 40 l per min = 2400 l per hour, which is bang on what I wanted (at least to start with, not so much now I realise it's one sided lol).
This is from a 5000 l/hour rated pump (with no head), but the pipe it's going through is about 3ft too long, so it may be a bit faster.

zoa
03-07-2009, 08:31 PM
That looks really nice. 8-)

This is where I have a hard time with forums. I can never express what I mean through type. Really nice.......kinda falls short of the work you have done. Very well done I am waiting to see it in action. Keep up the good work. :ugeek:

worley
03-08-2009, 04:15 PM
Thanks, the tank is now full up to the overflow point of the weir, I've filled the weir and there's no leaks from the bulkheads (I ended up taking them apart and putting a ring of silicon around each side and put them back, well worth it as I tried to fill the weir first without and it leaked.
I've made the sloped glass supports for the large glass panel inside the sump now, only trouble is that the plumbing comes down too low to do the U turn it needs to get the water to go down from the top, so going to have to make the plumbing more compact, or use a piece of pipe with a line cut down it as per most algae scrubbers (but not have the pipe connected to the screen directly)

kcress
03-22-2009, 12:12 AM
and.... so....

worley
03-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Lol I'm still waiting on the lights, getting the same as last time (PL fitting CFL) but 8 36w bulbs instead of 4 18w. I've had a few plumbing issues, just with the route the overflow pipes take, currently get in the way of easily removing the screen for cleaning. Anyhow, I'm on my iPhone, on the train and about to go through a tunnel and loose signal haha.

kcress
03-24-2009, 12:03 AM
LOL! :lol:

worley
03-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Well! got the lights, ballasts, 40m of cables and the fittings, now I need to build a frame for them, sillicon the fittings in place and put glass either side so I can get them as close to the screen as possible (and mirror the back)

worley
04-13-2009, 04:17 AM
Well, I've built the frame, got the glass cover for the lights cut and the mirror for the reflector cut with holes drilled so I can unscrew it and replace bulbs if I need to.
Just need to wire it and get some hooks so I can chain it up to the underside of the tank in the sump so that it'l be suspended around 1" from the screen...
Now that I've got the lights lined up where they're going, it looks like an awful lot of lights:
All 3500k:
4x 36W PL-L
4x 24W PL-L
That's 240W of compact fluroescent light, and it'll be around 2" away from the screen, with the relections being around 4" away. It's around 16,000 lumen of light!
That's more power than my two T5s and metal halide put together in the main tank!
At least this way there should be no competition for light between the scrubber and the tank.
Has anyone found that the lights can actually be too bright? Obviously if left on 24x7 it doesn't work, but can you put too many cfl bulbs too close to the screen?

Rumpy Pumpy
04-13-2009, 09:10 AM
Cool!

I wish I had the tools and skills to build something like that!

SantaMonica
04-13-2009, 10:07 AM
Well mine is 96W, 8000 lumens, for about 100 gal, and about 1.5" away from the screen. So it seem correct.

worley
04-13-2009, 06:35 PM
So double the light/lumens for 180gal should be spot on, if only slightly brighter per square inch.
I still think this is going to be as bright as a few mini stars going supernova in my sump ;)

worley
04-16-2009, 05:01 AM
I've built the frame with glass at the bottom, wooden frame siliconed to the glass with metal mirror corner clips to make sure it stays on, and the light fittings for the PL-L style fluorescent bulbs siliconed on to the wooden frame. A mirror is screwed on to the wooden frame so it can be removed to get access to the lights. Then a small hole through the wooden frame with the cables going to the electronic ballasts that are velcroed to the non-mirroed side (top) of the mirror. Lastly, there are a few extra holes in the mirror for hooks to go into the frame so it can be suspended on chains from the underside of the cabinet inside the sump.

Now, the problem...
At the moment, there's 4x36W PL-L bulbs connected to two ballast, the lights, when on for about half an hour make the glass and mirror so hot that it's only just possible to keep your hands on them, and the ballast get a bit hotter than that (they're rated up to 75C).
Cutting holes in the wood is probably not a good idea as splashes from the screen could get in, the only things I can think of are:

1) cut two holes in the mirror and place two fans, one to blow air out, and one to pull air in
[list:2nw1ks92]Cons:
a) difficult, and time consuming
b) Requires a power adaptor for the fans
c) More electrical contacts around water
d) More expense
Pros:
a) Likely to cool it well
2) Use longer screws and have some sort of spacers between the wooden frame and the mirror to let air flow natrually over the lamps
Cons:
a) Risks splashing directly on the PL-L bulbs/fittings and water collecting inside the frame
b) won't be as cool as a fan solution
Pros:
a) not much expense
b) easy
c) no more cables
[/list:u:2nw1ks92]
I'm leaning towards option 2). I could probably rig something up to protect the contacts getting wet and drill a small drain hole in the wooden frame at the lower end (as it's at a 30 degree slope roughly) in case any water does collect.

Any comments or other ideas?

P.S.
I think 140W will actually do for the moment, it's immensely bright, easily enough to light up our entire living room (and then some) and so bright it's hard to look at it.
P.P.S.
I just put it on top of the tank and put the 150W metal halide on, and it's almost exactly as bright, but different colour temp and no halide "shimmer".

worley
04-16-2009, 05:06 AM
I guess with a higher colour temp (which always appears brighter), the lights would be maybe slightly brighter than the halide.
Interesting to know that the halides aren't really that much less efficient than the compact fluorescent bulbs.

SantaMonica
04-16-2009, 03:44 PM
How about drilled holes, but no fan? Just passive flow. Would work if one hole were higher than the other. You could cover it with window screen to help keep splashes out.

Aquagold
04-18-2009, 12:04 AM
One of the most interesting areas in ATS design is the lighting. It never grabbed me like this when I was putting lights over the tank.
I need more time like you guys so I could tinker a bit more..... might have to plan it into my working day... :)
One question - will the fans 'de-gas' the water or will they help deliver some added CO2?
I used a degassing tower on a Abalone farm I managed.
Would be interesting to see the results before and after.

Rob

SantaMonica
04-18-2009, 10:59 AM
Scrubbers add oxygen, and remove C02, from the water.

worley
04-18-2009, 02:19 PM
Well I've taken the ballasts off the back of the mirror and they don't get anywhere near as hot now, I've also added some small spacers (about 3-4mm) between the wooden frame and the mirror to let air through, and it does appear to be running slightly cooler now.
I'm going to collect 2x 80cm computer case fans (roughly 20 cubic foot of air/min) tomorrow and hook them up to an old computer power supply and drill two sets of holes in the back of the cabinet where the sump is to blow/extract air, which should keep it cooler.

kcress
04-18-2009, 04:33 PM
I just noticed the mirror... If this is a typical glass mirror it is a reflective joke. They reflect only about 45% of the light that hits them... Slightly, (very slightly), better than white paint. They' are "second surface" mirrors which are horrible. On the bright side you look 55% less ugly in the bathroom mirror than you actually are.

What I'm getting at is if the mirror/glass is part of the cooling issue ditch it for a much better reflector, a "first surface" mirror. That's like they use in commercial lighting fixtures or our lighting hoods for that matter. This metal will conduct and dissipate the heat way better. It's called spectral aluminum or aluminum reflector.

worley
04-18-2009, 06:38 PM
I've spent about 20 minutes searching in the UK and I can't find anywhere that supplies sheets of spectral aluminium (or aluminum ;) ), I've found a few products that use it in the reflectors for lights, and I've found plain non-polished aluminium sheets. If you know where I could find any (preferably in the uk) or what sorts of places would stock it, that's be helpful =D
Thanks
Tom

kcress
04-18-2009, 09:32 PM
I've spent about 20 minutes searching in the UK and I can't find anywhere that supplies sheets of spectral aluminium (or aluminum ;) ), I've found a few products that use it in the reflectors for lights, and I've found plain non-polished aluminium sheets. If you know where I could find any (preferably in the uk) or what sorts of places would stock it, that's be helpful =D
Thanks
Tom


Tom; A common source for spectral Al is solar space lighting parts. You buy an extension tube and use the material. These are often 90++% percent reflective. They are actually kind of shockingly reflective. They will re-define your understanding of reflective. Check at any of your large building supply places. Do you have Home Despots there? Places like that now carry them.

Example:http://www.solatube.com/en/solamaster.htm

Spool down to the "extensions". I don't think they show much more on that page but that's what I'm talking about. You just get an extension and open it at the joint or cut it with tin snips.

worley
04-19-2009, 03:52 AM
Tom; A common source for spectral Al is solar space lighting parts. You buy an extension tube and use the material. These are often 90++% percent reflective. They are actually kind of shockingly reflective. They will re-define your understanding of reflective. Check at any of your large building supply places. Do you have Home Despots there? Places like that now carry them.
Despots! :lol: was that an intentional typo? Funny either way :D
I've got a B&Q (http://www.diy.com - that domain name must have cost them a fortune, or they were massively lucky) and Homebase (http://www.homebase.co.uk) near me.


Example:http://www.solatube.com/en/solamaster.htm
Spool down to the "extensions". I don't think they show much more on that page but that's what I'm talking about. You just get an extension and open it at the joint or cut it with tin snips.
I was hoping for a sheet of the stuff, as the mirror I have is roughly 3ft x 2ft (a bit under)

kcress
04-19-2009, 12:59 PM
Despots! :lol: was that an intentional typo?

I always refer to them verbally as "despots" but accidentally typed it. I then left it. :lol:


I was hoping for a sheet of the stuff, as the mirror I have is roughly 3ft x 2ft (a bit under)

And a 12" diameter tube when cut and laid out flat is how wide, hmmMMMmmmm? :?:



It's very hard to find in sheets.
Be prepared, this stuff is hard to make so it isn't free.. :( But it's impressive.

worley
04-19-2009, 04:22 PM
Well the good news is that I probably won't need to get any as I think I have the cooling situation sorted, obviously the mirror will reflect less...
I've got 2 large 120mm holes cut at the top of the back of the cabinet above the sump at each end, where I've put 2 120mm (12cm/5") PC case fans that will blow fresh air in and extract the hot humid air out of the sump/cabinet area and will replace all the air in the cabinet sump area every 40 seconds or so.
This is bound to increase my already high evaporation (around 1.5-2 litres per day), but in the coming summer ought to help keep temperatures down.
Also got two holes cut either side of the sump and used some spare 3/4" pipework as conduit for the sump pump and heater cables on one side, and the cables coming from the electronic ballast for the scrubber lights on the other. That way, the ballast can be outside of the cabinet, keep cooler and easily access on the side of the tank, also helping hugely with the heat issue.
Lastly, I've got the mirror slightly padded away from the wooden frame so there's a gap all the way around to let air naturally flow over it, with the large computer fan extracting air near the light's highest point.
I'll take some photos to explain when the fans and lights are all fully wired in, I should finally have my diagonal single sided semi-horizontal scrubber up and running within the next 2-3 days.
I think I'll actually use the entire screen from the old scrubber that is still running in the loft through the 6mm pipe and place it at the top of the scrubber and connect it to the new screen so it keeps working as it would before (except better because of more light and water flow and it will no longer be a recirculating scrubber) and will help seed the extra screen nice and quickly (I'll probably cable tie them together tightly)

kcress
04-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Well the good news is that I probably won't need to get any

yeah... you're just afraid to do the math! :D

(2piR)





Some pics would be nice as I am not picturing you're setup at all.

worley
04-22-2009, 10:28 AM
It's ALIIIIIVVVE!!!
Sorry, couldn't help it, had to post the fact that I've finally got the new uber scrubber running with lights, screen etc!
Photos to come shortly :lol:

worley
04-22-2009, 06:38 PM
So here's the photos I promised!
[attachment=5:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-1.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
[attachment=1:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-2.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
[attachment=0:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-3.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
[attachment=4:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-4.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
[attachment=3:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-5.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
I can't emphasize how well these two computer fans do their job, absolutely no condensation in the cabinet, the mirror behind the lights was getting nearly too hot to touch after just 30 minutes, now after running 6 hours with the two fans on it's barely luke-warm. Open the cabinet after hours of the lights being on, expecting to feel a blast of hot air, and instead get met with a gentle breeze of room temperature air!
[attachment=2:3hrx278l]scrubber-v2-6.jpg[/attachment:3hrx278l]
I've already thought of ways to improve the spread of the water as it's not quite even. First of all, I could re-do the plumbing so that there's a standard pipe with the end blocked off and a line cut down it, secondly, the entire glass panel could be laid nearly flat with a very slight (5-10 degree) slope, and a 1-2" strip of glass on the highest point on the left to allow the water to pool slightly and flow off the other end, that way it would all be submerged, but be at enough of a slope to give reasonable flow.
The only downside to this design is that the lighting unit ways a lot, and is very hard to lift out of the sump to get the screen out, and there's a few dead zones of water flow due to the screen rucking up slightly :roll:

SantaMonica
04-22-2009, 06:47 PM
The dead spots on the screen will be self-correcting, because the lower areas will fill up first, causing water to then reach the higher areas.

worley
04-22-2009, 06:51 PM
The dead spots on the screen will be self-correcting, because the lower areas will fill up first, causing water to then reach the higher areas.
Yeah, that's possible, hopefully it should grow down from the old screen on to the new one pretty quickly.
I know it's taken me 4 months or so to get the plumbing, sump, pump, electrical, lighting, screen, lighting box etc. sorted, but it's finally running!! WOOOOO!
Yes, that does also mean as I took the screen from the old scrubber out that it is no longer running and it's only running on this, no skimmer etc.

Jay1st
04-22-2009, 11:24 PM
Very nice design !!!!


Btw, what does the outlet coming from the tank look like ?
Is with a signle slot or holes ?

worley
04-23-2009, 02:15 AM
Very nice design !!!!
Thanks, but it's far from perfect.


Btw, what does the outlet coming from the tank look like ?
Is with a signle slot or holes ?
Neither, it's two pipes that come from the durso standpipes (the white ones in the picture), that then have a section of pipe that I heated over the cooker and flattened:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/download/file.php?id=108
Same as this, but with larger pipe and instead of pushing it flat, I used two thin nosed pliers to pull it flat from either side. I'll get some photos later if I can.

kcress
04-23-2009, 04:00 PM
Looks great! The mirror looks nice.

Do you have any vent holes in the light box? I can't figure it out.

Any chance you could PM me a full size picture of the one picture showing the backed off, door open, shot of the running TS. Fifth one down. I can't see enough of it to feel satisfied with what I'm seeing.

worley
04-23-2009, 04:43 PM
Looks great! The mirror looks nice.
Do you have any vent holes in the light box? I can't figure it out.
No, if you look there's the red foam pads that are used to seperate panels of glass/mirrors when they're cut, I've just used that to space it off the wooden frame enough to give a little natural air ventelation all the way around.


Any chance you could PM me a full size picture of the one picture showing the backed off, door open, shot of the running TS. Fifth one down. I can't see enough of it to feel satisfied with what I'm seeing.
Lol, I'll do one better and take a better photo tomorrow (lights are all off now and the flash would scare the hell out of the fish)

worley
04-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Ooops, ok forgot to take a photo today, sorry!
But good news, there's a light yellowly-brown covering over the entire of new part of the screen.
I was expecting the old part to creep on to the new at the top, but not at all so far.

However, I tried a little experiment, I dug a few pieces of hair algae off the old screen with my nails and jammed them into various parts of the new screen, they all stuck in place and didn't fall out, and better still, they've doubled in size in 3 days, sounds like a good way to seed the plastic canvas screens!
When I clean it next week, I'll probably do that all over the screen, should get it up and running really fast.

ocean rock
05-09-2009, 12:16 PM
hi m8 went to morrisons they have compact fluorescent light bulb 30 watts £2.49 each just thought id let you know

worley
05-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Nice, bargin! Will pop down past ours soon, thanks.

worley
05-21-2009, 06:18 AM
Just to let people know, the 30 degree slope design, lit from one side does actually work!
I'm getting at least as good growth as I was on the vertical design, and got fairly thick hair algae covering all of the new part of the screen. It's a little bit tricky getting even flow over the entire width, but not much more so than the standard design.
Only downside to my particular design is that the return pipe goes over the top of the lighting unit box, and as it's a flexible hose, it needs a bit of clearance, so I need to pull it off each time I clean the scrubber to get the lights out of the way so I can get in to the screen. It's not ideal, and if the company had waited to build the cabinet so the sump was on the left or right it would have worked perfectly.
As before with my recirculating scrubber, I'm not getting 0 Nitrates yet, but the scrubber isn't completely mature, it's getting there though, I've been leaving it a bit too long between cleans which is probably the cause (10 days on a few occasions)

kcress
05-21-2009, 02:50 PM
That's great to hear. Probably be my style too. Hey where are those pics you promised us?! :twisted: :lol:

worley
05-22-2009, 05:20 AM
LOL, ok, I'll take some more :D

worley
05-27-2009, 04:33 PM
Ok, still haven't got around to taking pics!
I've just done a weekly cleaning, and pulled off 4 times more than I ever have, so much you can't hold it in two hands together. All pretty thick.
I can definitely say that slopped scrubbers can certainly work, I'm getting at more growth than I was on the previous standard upright design, I do however have twice the load on the tank, nearly twice the lighting and 3 times the flow over the scrubber.
I can't however say if it would work better if it was half the size, double sided and vertical, I don't know, but if you have space constraints, it's a good way to get a decent sized algae scrubber in a very cramped space.
I've also doubled up the plastic canvas, hopefully more of it will survive cleans, as it tends to pull a lot of it off, more so than a clean to a double sided scrubber does.

PHYTO4LIFE
05-31-2009, 12:30 AM
that's a good high powered design

worley
06-14-2009, 03:26 PM
Ok thought I'd update everyone on my ATS.
I've just increased the bulbs from 144W to 216W today by adding 4 more bulbs (half the size, from my old scrubber), I can easily change them from 18W to 36W bulbs as they are the same fittings and just replace the starters.
So currently have: 4x36W and 4x18W and 4 twin starters.
I also doubled up the screen to make it twice as thick a few weeks ago and it just starting to grow roots down into the second layer, this should really help with the one sided design as little is left after cleaning.
When doing this, a week ago I decided to take the two foam pads out of the power heads in the tank, which was a silly mistake to do both at the same time, I got a big ammonia and nitrite spike for the last week which the ATS hasn't managed to take up the slack with yet, so I've gone through a bottle of Seachem Prime and got a damn ich outbreak =(, hence the light upgrade today. I've put both foam pads back in, but they were cleaned pretty thoroughly, so will have to re-colonise.
I also got the chance to clean off 3 month's worth of salt on the glass panel protecting the bulbs, and re-stick some of the bulb holders back.
FYI, silicon doesn't stick plastic to wood for long, "Grabs like nails" works really well and very strong.
Also nearly lost a few corals, they certainly looking really bad, but since the lighting upgrade there seems to be a noticeable difference already.
Saying all that, I've been getting really pretty good harvests out of the screen, yet nitrates are still around 5-7 ppm and still a little algae in the tank. I'm hoping this light upgrade should help everything. I think I'll upgrade it all to 288W of CFL bulbs soon (and probably replace all the bulbs at the same time).
Also going to see if I can get hold of some polished aluminium sheet to replace the mirror

SantaMonica
06-15-2009, 12:04 AM
What are the foam pads for?

worley
06-15-2009, 02:16 AM
What are the foam pads for?
They were there only for biological filtration before I had the new ATS up and running.
I've also added a powerhead (without pads) to the sump under the ATS so that nothing settles on the bottom and that any un-eaten food gets passed back into the tank.
Everything was going fine until the day after I pulled both foam filters from the power heads (they're more like Fluval filters really), I guess there wasn't enough light on the ATS and it was also the same time that I did a cleaning on the screen so half of it was nearly bare. All generally bad timing!
I think the fact that the nitrate hadn't fallen to 0 still was an indication that the scrubber wasn't up to the job yet, hopefully the extra light will help. Also I still don't think I roughened up the screen enough (I still get growth within a day of cleaning, but I'm sure it'll help), so I may go over the areas I clean in a few days.
I've also redirected the flow more evenly over the entire screen with the two overflow outputs so should get more growth on the edge areas (also the new lights cover one side where the old lights didn't cover as well), so all in all there should be more growth.

worley
06-26-2009, 04:48 AM
Sort of had a mini disaster. This is how I think it happened.
I pulled the foam pads from the powerheads.
I had missed a few 7 days cleanings by a day or two, so the screen was a little overgrown and possibly not pulling everything up it should.
Started to a small amount of some ammonia.
This stressed out the soft corals. Could well have leached toxins into the water, which in turn stressed out the hard corals.
I put the foam pads back in after doing a clean (they had been cleaned under tap water originally, but then rinsed out and put into the sump just in case.)
The foam pads took 2 weeks or so of suspended food in the water and started processing it.
The food rotted in the pads, which weren't properly populated with bacteria, releasing ammonia.
This in turn pissed off the soft corals even more, which pissed off the rest of the corals and stressed out the fish.
Started to get an outbreak of ich (pretty sure it's cryptocaryon) (don't have the room for a Q tank unfortunately, so have relied on healthy fish and good water quality).
Added some bacterial starter.
Started to get some nitrites.
Gorgonia and some SPS started to die (which really sucks as they had grown massively, quadrupling in size in 3-4 months), releasing more toxins.
Whitespot/ich/cryptocaryon got worse and last night I lost my bannerfish :shock: (almost exactly at the same time that Michael Jackson died - freaky... yes he's dead, wake up and watch the news!).
Again, bad me, I was a day overdue on the cleaning, I took the screen out and it was completely covered in thick brown slime algae, which had choked the algae underneath, which had started to rot and make things worse.
I removed only a little of the turf algae as after I blasted the screen with the shower and the slime algae came off, there was no new grown underneath that from the previous cleaning.
Then did my first water change in 10 months, did 20%. (calcium, hardness, ph etc. have all been fine, only needing minor supplements).
All this time I've been dosing Seachem Prime to keep down the ammonia/nitirite, but it's not been enough.

I'm happy to say that tank is looking somewhat better after the screen clean last night, but the surviving corals are all still in and a few fish still smothered in ich (to be expected for a week or so).

I know that the problems are not caused by the scrubber, only the lack of correct maintenance (been stupidly busy with work for the last month). I was however considering some non-mechanical backup biological filtration to be a backup in case I make another silly mistake like this. Something like a fluidised sand bed filter, which shouldn't remove any suspended food, yes it's likely to keep the 'trates up a bit I guess.
I think it explains why my nitrates were never 0 but always very low (around 5ppm normally), more than likely it was the foam filters in the powerheads that were making the nitrates that were then being soaked up by the algae on the scrubber, rather than the scrubber soaking up the ammonia directly and bypassing the nitrate stage.
I'm a little wary of removing the foam filters at the moment as the fish are fairly stressed and don't want to loose any more. It's probably irrational, but hey.

All in all, this comes down to a few mistakes:
When removing biological filtration, don't do it all at once.
Putting the pads back in after 2 weeks or so of not having them - causing food to rot.
NOT CLEANING THE SCREEN EVERY 7 DAYS WITHOUT FAIL!!!!

SantaMonica
06-26-2009, 09:34 AM
In my continuous-liquid-feeding experiments, I was able to get almost the same results you accidentally got. Details aside, I got to about 100 times normal daily food amounts, and was starting to see your results, which are typical for increased ammonia and nitrite (not nitrate). Immediate fix is to stop feeding, turn on a UV if you have one, put in lots of carbon, lower the temperature, start dosing vodka (only if you have studied how), then put a filtersock on the overflow and start vacuuming/blowing the entire tank. Then clean out the sump, and clean the sock twice a day. You can have zero ammonia/nitrite in one day if done correctly. Water changes won't help... the dying corals/animals put in much more ammonia than the water change takes out (so be sure to remove anything that's dying). Since your scrubber (like mine) is just a regular-sized one, it's not too hard to over power it with lots of ammonia (the recommended size is the smallest size that works OK).

You might still do some of these things to get you back to normal. I dont' think a few extra days on the scrubber caused it. It would have to really accumulate for it to be the cause. But certainly the scrubber was unable to help, since as you said it was thickly covered with slime.

worley
06-28-2009, 09:53 AM
I figured as this is no longer a design and it's been built, that I'd move it to the main forum now :)
Well good news, after the cleaning the filters and scrubber a few days ago I put some carbon yesterday and today the tank is looking nearly back to normal and actually looks pretty good again!
I think another factor that didn't help things was that in the last 1-2 weeks it's got pretty warm, I also setup the air-con unit in the living room with the tank 2 days ago.
The tank had settled around 24-25C until it started getting warmer a 2 weeks ago, and it started to get to 25-26, then 26-27, which was when everything really went wrong all at once. I had to turn off the halide and only have the T5s.
The tank has now settled at 25C, even with the halide on, when it's 30C+ in the rest of the house (and a pleasant 22C in the living room! :D), the fish still have a fair bit of whitespot, but are all eating well and very active, the corals are recovering well now. All in all, the temperature increase was likely to just stress the tank out even more.
4 days after cleaning the screen, it's completely covered in brown slime algae and this long stringy brown algae, the same stuff that was smothering it before, so I'm going to do an early clean tonight, I'll probably just blast it with the shower to get rid of most of it rather than scraping it, as I don't think there's much growth under the brown algae.
Still, everything is look much better now, I think the brown algae is just growing because of the high ammonia/nitrite, going to do a test now, but from the way things look, pretty sure they're very low now. Hopefully that will cause the brown algae to slow down and give the turf some chance again.

ocean rock
06-28-2009, 10:21 AM
sorry to ear about the mishaps m8 hope you have it all under control very so , also do you have any pics :(

worley
06-28-2009, 10:24 AM
sorry to ear about the mishaps m8 hope you have it all under control very so , also do you have any pics :(
Well, it's getting better very quickly, so it's looking good.
I've not taken any since it started going a bit pear shaped, but there's the post with the slightly older ones on:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=205
I'll take some of the screen before I clean it again with all the brown algae.

worley
07-14-2009, 03:09 AM
As I mentioned in the other thread, I've moved all inverts out into a Q tank (after dipping the coral in iodine dips, and rinsing the rest), and treating the main tank with Seachem Cupramine (copper based).
After a week with the full dose of copper, it's working great, almost no sign of ich in the tank, and oddly enough the slime algae seems to have vanished from the screen (maybe due to the copper?) and the turf is growing very well.