dying fish

[tjsmk8]

I've lost a couple of clownfish lately and have only found one thing their deaths have in common. Both occurred within an hour of cleaning my screen. A couple of weeks ago, I cleaned the screen, rinsed it, and started it back up. My adult Occ. clown started swimming erratically and eventually swan under a rock and died. I had owned it for a year and a half (4 months in this tank). A few days ago, I picked up a juvi Clarkii in hopes that it would find a home in my Malu anemone (my Occ would have nothing to do with it). It went straight to the nem and seemed happy and healthy. Today I cleaned the screen. Upon restarting it, the clown started swimming erratically all over the tank (hadn't been 6 inches from the nem before this). Within 20 minutes it had swam under a rock and passed.

The tank is a 40 breeder with a 20 long sump. The screen is about 10x10 and is fed off of the return pump. I leave the powerheads in the tank running while I have the return pump off cleaning the screen. Lighting is two 23w cf lights on each side of the screen. It has been running since Feb. and the gha is finally starting to fill in. The only other fish in the tank are a Mandarin and a Randalli Goby (along with his tiger pistol). The tank also has a handful of soft and lps corals. Everything else seems to be fine.

Any ideas as to what is going on? Could cleaning the screen be releasing something toxic? Maybe the rinse before putting it back into service? Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks.

[SantaMonica]

First time hearing of this. Sounds like something in your tap water, but even if so, it should not be enough to hurt. You should be removing the screen from the pipe, so any buildup in the pipe is cleaned out too.

The algae does not release anything bad... it's the same algae that grows in your tank that the fish eat.

[itzrulez]

how often do you clean your screen?

[tjsmk8]

I clean my screen weekly. After I scrape it, I rinse in fresh water and then quick rinse with ro. It's the same way I clean pretty much anything that goes in the tank.

I think I may have lost my goby this time as well. I haven't seen him since about two hours after last nights cleaning, but he may just be hanging in a cave with his shrimp. I'll update tonight when the lights are on.

Thanks

[itzrulez]

when you clean, whats the color of your screen?
color of algae!

[tjsmk8]

It had been a greenish slime for the longest time, but the gha is starting to fill in nicely now.

[itzrulez]

if it starts to appear yellow algae, clean that time!
the yellow algae produce FENOL(i'm brazilian, and i dont know how to write this in english..)
when you clean, be sure that in the screen you didnt let any yellow algae..

[SantaMonica]

Yellow just means lack of iron. Nothing harmful is produced. It's the same algae that grows in your tank.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Could switching off the return pump while you're cleaning the screen be causing something odd to happen?

Seems unlikely but what else is there?

Co-incidence?

[tjsmk8]

Finally have a little good news, the goby is fine.

I turn my return pump off everyday for feeding, so I don't think it's an issue.

Whatever the problem is only seems to affect more active fish. The Mandarin and the Goby seem to endure it without a problem. The way the clowns would dart around the tank before dying make me wonder if they weren't suffocating for some reason. I did notice the goby breathing a little hard last night, but I thought it was from the clown stressing him out. They normally stay on opposite ends of the tank, but when the clown was darting around, he lunged at the goby a couple of time freaking him out a little.

Please keep the ideas coming. It's frustrating having corals that are thriving while killing off my fish.

Thanks.

[SantaMonica]

Sound exactly like lack of oxygen.

[tjsmk8]

Sound exactly like lack of oxygen.

What do you think the cause of this is? I keep the powerheads in the tank running while cleaning the screen for this very reason (since the return pump is off). I generally have the return off for about 15 mins during cleaning. I turn all flow off daily for about 10 during feeding.

Are hobbyist grade oxygen test kits any good? I'm willing to get one if it's worth it. Is there anything about cleaning the screen that would cause oxygen to drop (other than the return pump being off)?

[SantaMonica]

Just watch the fish and see if they go the surface.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Very odd.

You could try aerating the water while you clean the screen, perhaps for 10 mins before you start.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Is there anything about cleaning the screen that would cause oxygen to drop (other than the return pump being off)?


Algae releases oxygen (when lit) so I guess that cleaning off the algae will reduce the oxygen in the tank water somewhat.

No one else, to my knowledge, has reported problems like this though.

I suppose it's possible that in your particular case, the oxygenation level of the water is at a borderline and that removing the algae tips it into inadequacy?

Seems unlikely but stranger things have happened.

[iggy]

Would really need a full tank description before so readers are not grasping at straws.

How much live rock and sand in tank?
How many fish total?

Breeder tanks usually have lots of surface area so your slow must be bad. They may be sick fish that were stressed instead.

[Dallas reefer]

You probably should have plumbed your overflow with a secondary drain, if you supply your ATS with overflow water. On my set-up as you can see, the middle valve is my secondary drain for when I clean it. The first is for my fuge.

And it's all a cheap set up.


http://tapatalk.com/mu/6c484907-1853-7ae8.jpg

[new2scrub]

maybe toxic algae? maybe tiny toxic jelly fish or some other tiny toxic invert is living in you scrubber and being flushed into the display tank during cleanings? Or maybe something is wrong with you system and when you remove you filter(clean) you get a huge spike?

[SantaMonica]

There is no toxic algae in a tank. Algae is toxic when it blocks the sun from reaching all plant life, and when it dies off in huge amounts and takes oxygen with it. Algae on a screen is a tiny amount, and is not dying, and it is not blocking light from reaching corals.

[tjsmk8]

Thanks for all of the ideas. I cleaned the screen again tonight (8 days). I've not seen anything die, but there is definitely some stress in the tank. Malu nem is closed up (does this on occasion so may not be anything), torch coral withdrawn (very rare), neon trumpet closed (first I've ever noticed), etc.

The screen doesn't seem to be growing like I thought it would (based on net progress pics). I do have quite a bit of chaeto growing in the sump below it. Should I slowly trim the macro back? Could it be hindering the screen? I had expected the screen to starve it out, but the chaeto is definitely winning so far (the screen had a month head start).

[SantaMonica]

Then your screen is not set up right. Pics would help.

[midnight]

I do not think your problem is oxygen related. From your descriptions, it seems to me that your fish are being poisened.

What is the material of your screen? Possibly something toxic is being freed up and released from the screen during the cleaning process.

Are any tools, brushes, sponges, etc. being used in your cleaning process. Could they be contaminated with household cleaners without your knowledge?

Could a coral or other inhabitant be releasing a toxic defense in response to the disturbance to your cleaning?

Do not feed your fish or tank prior to cleaning. Immediately prior to cleaning my suggestion would be to closely observe your aquarium for 15 minutes or more. Then fill a 5 gallon bucket with tank water to serve as a lifeboat if the need arises. You may need an airstone, heater, ammo-lock. Keep notes ang log. Clean your screen. Work systematically. Check equipment like pumps for problems. Return everything to operational status and closely observe your aquarium for a period of time. If your fish appear erratic move them to your rescue bucket. No acclimation necessary. Keep them in the rescue bucket for awhile and then return to your aquarium. Acclimation should not be necessary, however it would not hurt.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Are any tools, brushes, sponges, etc. being used in your cleaning process. Could they be contaminated with household cleaners without your knowledge?


Good thinking!

[SantaMonica]

Another trick... do everyting you would do for a cleaning, but don't clean it... just put the screens back in while still full.

[tjsmk8]

It took a couple of hours this time, but I lost a clarkii last night. It started swimming eratically, darting in and out of the rocks. He stayed in the lower half of the tank so I don't think its O2 related. I clean the screen during it's dark period as well. The screen itself is plastic canvas from Michaels. I clean it with my Kent marine scraper. It's the short one and I just drag it across the screen. Between the tank and the sink, I carry the screen in bucket that is dedicated to aquarium use. Last night I put a couple layers of paper towels in the sink so the screen wouldn't contact the sink or anything on it. I wore gloves, rinsed with tap then ro/di, etc., etc.

I'll try going through the cleaning process without actually scraping in a few days, but I'm just about convinced the scraping has something to do with it. If I don't figure this out soon, I may be finished with the ats project. I truly believe they work, but something must be amiss with mine. It's a bummer because I'm not sure I can support my mandarin without it (although he does pick at frozen and pellet food a little).

Here's a crappy phone pic, but you get the idea.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I wore gloves


What sort of gloves? Could there be anything on them? Not powdered are they?

I read somewhere else that the powder they sometimes put on latex gloves can kill fish.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Here

http://www.thesaltybox.com/forum/help-a ... -fish.html (http://www.thesaltybox.com/forum/help-advice/64075-my-2-dead-fish.html)

[tjsmk8]

They were black nitrile gloves, no powder. It was the first time I've worn gloves for the cleaning process. I wore them to eliminate something from my hands being the problem.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

It's very strange.

This has only ever happened immediately after you clean the scrubber, is that correct?


Impossible to say but I suppose it's possible that you have some unusual form of algae growing on the screen which releases some sort of toxin when damaged, perhaps as a defence against being eaten?

There are enough people using scrubbers now that you'd have thought that we'd have seen this before if this is what's happening, but there doesn't seem to be any other explanation does there?

[tjsmk8]

I agree that it's very strange, and it's driving me crazy. I didn't put the cleaning/death together at first, but I know for sure that the last three fish have died within two hours of putting the screen back online.

[SantaMonica]

Are there silicone gloves without powder?

Another test-trick: When cleaning, replace the screens entirely with a new unused screen. Keep the old ones in some water for a day.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Are there silicone gloves without powder?


Yes

[SantaMonica]

Let's see some pics of the scrubber.