Building a new acrylic scrubber

[DesignsOnline]

I have started to build a new acrylic scrubber for my tank (5ft long 2.5 ft high 2 ft front to back Bowfront)
it is 2 ft long by 15 inches high & 8 inches deep, it is comprised of 3 sections:

a water tight central section made of clear acrylic drilled at the top for 40mm pipe that houses the screens.
This section is 3 inches front to back with a 40mm pipe running the length of this section, slit at the bottom
and housing the screen. The top of the pipe is removable to allow access to the screens.

The screens are 2 x 12 inches wide by 12 inches long

2 end sections with the lighting in. The outside long edges are made of polished mirrored acrylic, with the
mirror facing in to act as powerful reflectors. 3 energy saver bulbs evenly spaced are contained in each side.
Producing and equivilent of 600 watts of light, but actually ony using 120 watts.

The lid is a pushfit design lipped around the center section to keep it watertight , it is removable and allows
access to the screens, pipe, and the lighting in the outer sections.

The ends are drilled top and bottom, with the 40mm pipe entering one side and exiting the other at the top, with
an end cap to allow quick access to the pipe for blockage, and also to allow me to fit an overflow system in case of blockage.

The scrubber is drilled and fitted with a 40mm 90 degree elbow joint comming off the bottom of the scrubber to allow
me to pipe the water either down in to the sump or elsewhere.

The water enters the scrubber via the pipe connected to the weir in the main tank, and is gravity fed saving on power usage.

ANy comments on this design by santamonica before I complete the build would be appreciated.

[DesignsOnline]

Just to add to the details above, the Accrylic I have bought to build this with is 4mm thick clear, except for the 4mm thick mirror.
I was concerned with evaparation, and suspect that with many of the open "in an bucket" style designs a lot of water is lost to evaporation.
Can anyone confirm/deny this?
I also wanted to keep the sound levels as low as possible (as I already have a very noisy tank)

It was these factors that led to me deciding to build a fully contained and boxed in scrubber.
I have all the materials ready and will be starting to build this on Tuesday morning, therefore any tips or pointers on the design or anything else before I start would be very helpful...

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'm a little lost on a couple parts of the design. Are you cutting the slot tube lengthwise so that you can lift the top off and pull the screen up through the slot itself? That will not work if that's what you're thinking. The growth on the screen will make this impossible to do, plus you need to be able to remove the slot tube and clean it (the slot section)

It sounds like you're using 6 20W CFLs, which is about right. Don't worry about equivalent wattage, means nothing w/r to scrubbers - actual wattage is what matters.

The 4mm acrylic will probably do, as long as you brace it properly. Otherwise the heat on one side and water cooling the other side will cause it to box outward toward the heat like crazy. Plus I would go with 1/4" minimum for the watertight box, it's a lot easier to work with and make a watertight bond.

You asked about the link to the SM100, here is the link

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=502 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=502)

plans are shown about 2/3 of the way down.

The mirrored acrylic may or may not work, you lose a lot of light power when you have to go through the material twice (once on the way to the mirror, once on the way back) but it's way better than nothing. Polished aluminum is the best but DIYing it not so easy, but you can mod a stock reflector or make a beer can reflector.

Just a few comments for now. Better not to rush into it, take your time and look at as many designs as you can before actually building.

[SantaMonica]

Need to see a 3d pic. Can't tell from the wording.

[DesignsOnline]

Need to see a 3d pic. Can't tell from the wording.
I dont have anthing to build a 3d pic with.....
2d is the best I can do.....

[DesignsOnline]

I'm a little lost on a couple parts of the design. Are you cutting the slot tube lengthwise so that you can lift the top off and pull the screen up through the slot itself? That will not work if that's what you're thinking. The growth on the screen will make this impossible to do, plus you need to be able to remove the slot tube and clean it (the slot section)

Your right that is what I was thinking of doing. I did think the growth on the screen may make it difficult to remove the screen from the pipe, so I was going to simply make the slot in the pipe a little larger to allow the screen to be removed. I am now going to totally rethink this part of the design.

I will have to make the pipe removable from the top, like the sm100 design you showed me.
This gives me a new problem though, I was going to use the pipe running through holes in the sides of the scrubber unit to hold up the scrubber in place above my sump.
However having the groves in the sides to allow the pipe to be removed means that I will have to find another way of supporting the unit above the sump, and unless I cut just enough space to run the pipe right at the top below the lid then it will also allow for evaporation (I want the center section to be water tight and as quiet as possible.)





It sounds like you're using 6 20W CFLs, which is about right. Don't worry about equivalent wattage, means nothing w/r to scrubbers - actual wattage is what matters.
Will that be enough light? it will be three energy saving bulbs on each side of the screen, spaced out at 6 inches along, 12 inches (in the middle), and 18 inches along, plus the mirror behind the lights facing in to the unit. I know that the further it travels the less powerful the light will be, but the only light that will be reflected back in will be light that would have been wasted otherwise, so it should help to improve the spread of light across the screen.




The 4mm acrylic will probably do, as long as you brace it properly. Otherwise the heat on one side and water cooling the other side will cause it to box outward toward the heat like crazy. Plus I would go with 1/4" minimum for the watertight box, it's a lot easier to work with and make a watertight bond.

You asked about the link to the SM100, here is the link

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=502 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=502)

plans are shown about 2/3 of the way down.

Thanks for the link, I like the way that the light sections are removable in that design, but it looks too complicated for me to replicate, plus im using very different kind of lights.

I hadnt considered the possibility of the box warping, thats a worry as I dont have any thicker material to work with. and the stuff I have got took ages to find...
When you say about bracing what do you mean? (im not a practical person when it comes to building or making things, im a webite designer and a search engine optimisation (http://www.designsonline.co.uk/Search-Engine-Optimisation.html) person)
How would I brace it and what with?



The mirrored acrylic may or may not work, you lose a lot of light power when you have to go through the material twice (once on the way to the mirror, once on the way back) but it's way better than nothing. Polished aluminum is the best but DIYing it not so easy, but you can mod a stock reflector or make a beer can reflector.

Just a few comments for now. Better not to rush into it, take your time and look at as many designs as you can before actually building.

I really appreciate your helpful comments, thank you. Please feel free to make as many more as you think are needed as I dont want to keep making mistakes that could be avoided.
In the meantime, my tank is desperate for the scrubber to get started, my skimmer pupms packed in about a year and a half ago and since then the only filtration has been the liverock and water changes.

[DesignsOnline]

I have had an idea that may help with the problem of heat from the lights a little:

I was going to box in the sections for the lights totaly and drill a few holes in the top of the light sections to let the heat out,
but instead I could add sliding runners in the lid and the base plate and just slide the mirror accrylic in to place front and back but with no sides.
So the sides for the light compartments would be left open to allow the heat to disipate, I could ebven add mini fans to blow along the length of the lighting compartments if needed.

However this would create a new problem, every time I open the lid the whole thing would need to be put back together after, because the mirrored walls front and back would need the lid to hold them in place,
unless I added a partial side to hold the mirror in place when the lid is removed....?

[DesignsOnline]

Modified design to allow cooling, & pipe removal for screen cleaning, any better?
In this version the lid can still be lifted straight off and the central compartment that houses the screen is as watertight as possible still.

[attachment=1:1y4ktk83]scrubber-side.jpg[/attachment:1y4ktk83]

Here is an awful scetch of the side view, (about as close to 3d as im gong to manage lol...

[attachment=0:1y4ktk83]scrubber-length.jpg[/attachment:1y4ktk83]

What do you think of this version, it should allow for cooling to prevent the heat from the lights warping the acrylic dont you think?

[DesignsOnline]

update to original image at the top:

[attachment=0:31bowiu2]scrubber-design-updated.jpg[/attachment:31bowiu2]

[SantaMonica]

1. It'll work, but the spots in front of each bulb will tend to burn since they are so close to the bulbs. Reduced hours will fix this.

2. Warping will occur anywhere that is not supported. If you can push with your finger and bend the material, if will probably warp there.

3. Seems like a complex attempt for a first scrubber, especially since you don't have anything right now. How about just starting with a simple external one first.

[DesignsOnline]

Seems like a complex attempt for a first scrubber, especially since you don't have anything right now. How about just starting with a simple external one first.

Well I could do, but I dont see what this would acheive other than an increased evaparation rate.
We all know that a scrubber works, and I wouldnt want to run a messy system or one that could risk spraying anywhere...

Plus I want to ensure that the lights and the screen are kept very carefully apart.


It'll work, but the spots in front of each bulb will tend to burn since they are so close to the bulbs. Reduced hours will fix this.
I am planing to use the same photo period as my main lights so I can use the same auto timer system.
This will run about 9 hours of light a day....

[DesignsOnline]

Just to make it clear in case I didnt mention it already, the water will enter the scrubber via the central weir, the return pump from the sump to the main tank above is an Ocean Runner 6500.
So there is a lot of flow, the pipe from the weir to the scrubber is 40mm so it will allow for a lot of fast flow over the scrubber.

The scrubber will be 24inches wide by 15 inches high, and the screen will probably be 23 inches wide by 12 inches high, lit both sides (with around 5000 ltrs per hour flowing down it)
with the 3 x 20w energy saver bulbs each side of the screen hanging about 3 inches from the screen with a clear acrylic barrier between the 2 on both sides. (6 bulbs in total)

Does this sound like a good design and an effective scrubber for the size tank it is on? (Equivilant to a 5 x 2 x 2)

[Floyd R Turbo]

A 23 x 12 screen would be good for a 275 gallon tank. You're running what, a 150 or 180 bowfront? You want 1 watt per gallon of system water, so 6 x 20W CFLs is only 120W, you're going to be running a scrubber screen that is larger than your system with light that is lower than your system. Essentially an oversized, underpowered scrubber.

The first thing I would do would be to verify the flow coming from the DT, not by calculating it, but by actually measuring the flow rate in GPH. Then divide this by 35 GPH/in and get your ideal screen width, and divide this into your tank size to get your ideal screen height. Design around the flow available. If you know, for sure, that you're getting more than 800 GPH from your overflow, then a 20"+ wide screen is no problem.

After you have the screen properly sized, then you pick out and design how you are going to light it, with 1 watt per gallon or 1 watt per square inch of screen dimension.

[DesignsOnline]

Well in that case what about if I were to run 4 x 45w bulbs, 2 at the front and 2 at the back:
here are the bulbs: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/45w-225w-Daylight-Energy-Saving-CFL-light-bulb-E27-/280701588129?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&hash=item415b1e52a1

They are 45 watt but are equivillent to 225 watt bulbs!


Or I could run 6 x 30w bulbs (each equivilent to 150w - total equivilent 900w)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/30W-BC-DAYLIGHT-SAD-ENERGY-SAVING-LAMP-LIGHT-BULB-x2-/120558983678?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&hash=item1c11e019fe

It wouldnt be under powered with either of these configurations would it...?

[DesignsOnline]

The algae isnt going to know how many watts are being eatien up running the lights, they are just going to "know" how much light or how many lumens are being produced by the bulb.

A 30 watt Low Energy Lightbulb claims to be Equivelant to a 150 watt ordinary bulb.

The 30 watt energy saver bulb produces 1897 Lumens in 2700K Colour
a standard old fashioned 100 watt incandesent light bulb produces 1,700 Lumens

So in reality it is slightly better than equal to a 100 watt bulb. The wattage actually in reality plays no part in the equasion, it is merely used as a guide im sure.

If you were to run 2 identical scrubbers (of the dimentions that I have given for mine) 1 using 6 of the 30 watt energy saver bulbs each producing 1,897 Lumens,
and another using 6 standard old fashioned 100w bulbs each producing 1,700 Lumens

According to the theory on this site as I understand it, the scrubber using the energy saver bulbs would perform 70% worse than the scrubber using the old fashioned 100w bulbs.
The Lumens and the light spectrum or Kelvin rating is a far more important measurement surely?

[Floyd R Turbo]

The higher the wattage, the more problems you get with hotspots. It is better to use more lamps at lower wattage, because they can be closer and the light is more easily diffused with reflectors.

Equivalent wattage simply means the CFL lamp puts out as much lumens as the comparable incandescent lamp wattage. "energy saver" just means it uses less energy for the same light output. Neither of these mean anything when discussing scrubbers. All we care about is actual CFL wattage.

You have your answer in your last post. Lumens is what matter. CFL wattage and lumens usually go hand in hand, the more CFL watts, the more lumens. They are not directly related, so if you want to get really picky about it you can try to look at the lumens, but you're getting in to way too much detail than what is needed.

You need to just focus on CFL wattage (actual) matching the screen dimensions.

[DesignsOnline]

Well I have made a start on the scrubber build today, so will post up the photos as we go along.
The acrylic isnt too bad to cut with a jug saw, but we have broken a could of sheets by not cutting as smoothly as possible

[Floyd R Turbo]

Are you planning a watertight box? If so, you might have a hard time making that work by using a jigsaw to cut the pieces. You would be better off finding an acrylic supplier and giving them dimensions to cut. You need an edge that perfectly straight and flat in order to bond to the adjacent piece. If not, the weld-on won't wick in fully and you'll end up with gaps, and you'll have to add gussets. Or you could flatten and straighten the edges by dragging a razor blade across it after the rough cut.

Cutting acrylic takes practice, because if you cut too slow, it melts. Cut too fast, it cracks. All fabrication, including welding, induces stress into the material which can weaken the bond strength if done improperly. Now our boxes typically don't fill with water 100% so this is less of a concern, and as long as this is over your sump, it's not big deal. If you had the box off to the side of the tank, you would want it built as if it was an aquarium that needed to hold water 100% full and never fail.

[DesignsOnline]

I only took 4 photos, but I cant move them off the phone on to the memory card!
When I plug it in to the computer it reads the card, but wont access the phone, I will try again...

[DesignsOnline]

Managed to get them off thr phone...

[attachment=2:1nwl5k60]IMAG0017.jpg[/attachment:1nwl5k60]

[attachment=0:1nwl5k60]base.jpg[/attachment:1nwl5k60]

[attachment=1:1nwl5k60]mirrored-4-ends.jpg[/attachment:1nwl5k60]

[DesignsOnline]

4 hours later, we are still just here....

[attachment=0:1tgp0dld]one-side.jpg[/attachment:1tgp0dld]

Then the storm broke out & the rain fell....

[DesignsOnline]

So as I have no tools or building skill everything has been left at a mates house,
and we will pick up where we left off another day (probably next week)

[Floyd R Turbo]

So you're in the UK, right? What kind of solvent welding products do you have there - what are you using? Looks pretty good so far, have you worked with acrylics before?

[DesignsOnline]

Are you planning a watertight box? If so, you might have a hard time making that work by using a jigsaw to cut the pieces. You would be better off finding an acrylic supplier and giving them dimensions to cut. You need an edge that perfectly straight and flat in order to bond to the adjacent piece. If not, the weld-on won't wick in fully and you'll end up with gaps, and you'll have to add gussets. Or you could flatten and straighten the edges by dragging a razor blade across it after the rough cut.

Cutting acrylic takes practice, because if you cut too slow, it melts. Cut too fast, it cracks. All fabrication, including welding, induces stress into the material which can weaken the bond strength if done improperly. Now our boxes typically don't fill with water 100% so this is less of a concern, and as long as this is over your sump, it's not big deal. If you had the box off to the side of the tank, you would want it built as if it was an aquarium that needed to hold water 100% full and never fail.

It has been quite hard going, but the main center section is now done, next comes the lid, & then the bracing for the lighting sections.
I found that pipe weld cement didnt hold it together, so we used super glue, and then put the pipe weld glue over the top of that on the outside
edges. We will the eventually put aquarium silicon on all joins and edges over the top.

[DesignsOnline]

So you're in the UK, right? What kind of solvent welding products do you have there - what are you using? Looks pretty good so far, have you worked with acrylics before?
Thanks, no this is the first time, but I like to get things right the first time if possible...

[DesignsOnline]

I undertook a very complicated woodwork task 7 years ago as my first ever time making anything from wood.
I hired a workshop & showsed my plans for a carved wooden cradle to the guy that owned it, & he didnt think I had a chance of buolding it.
But it came out really well....
(At least my wife & I thought so...)


[attachment=2:3rgk9wsk]DSCF0314.jpg[/attachment:3rgk9wsk]

[attachment=1:3rgk9wsk]DSCF0315.jpg[/attachment:3rgk9wsk]

[attachment=0:3rgk9wsk]DSCF0316.jpg[/attachment:3rgk9wsk]

[DesignsOnline]

I did have some much better photos of it than that, but I cant find them...

[DesignsOnline]

I have reasessed the size of the scrubber based on the screen size.
A local shop sold the screens (7 count plastic canvas) at 20 inches x 13 inches.
So instead of making the scrubber 24inches long by 15 inches high, and having to cut the screens up to make them fit,
I have reduced the size of the scrubber to fit the locally available screens.

So now my scrubber is 21inches long, by 14 inches high. The central section is 3 inches deep front to back
and the 2 outside sections are 2.5 inches deep each.


I havent started on the lighting yet as I want to get it right, and I need it to be as cheap as possible.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is the best wooden baby I have ever seen :lol:

You need to put the brakes on this build right now. Pipe cement is not the proper material. Neither is superglue. Your box will likely come apart under minimal pressure. Aquarium silicone will not bond to acrylic so it will not form a structural bond between 2 pieces of acrylic, unless you prep the edges with a new technique that right now I only know is being used by professional aquarium builders. You really need to go back to the basics and research acrylic fabrication techniques. Solvent welding is the #1 thing that you need to know when bonding acrylic.

I would go to your acrylic supplier and find out if they carry anything similar to Weld-On #3 or #4. I seem to remember reading that these products are hard to come by in the UK, but someone has to carry it. The active chemical is a solvent called Methylene Chloride. Chloroform will work in a pinch also. PVC pipe cement is way down on the list, I think Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) is the active ingredient in that, and pipe cement is that and some other chemicals mixed in.

What you should really do is go find the thread on Reef Central under the DIY forum called "Acrylic Fabrication Questions? I can help". 8+ years of free acrylic advice. I know that someone on there had posted about difficulty finding solvent welding products in the UK due to haz mat restrictions or something, but finding it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack without a metal detector. James/Acrylics might know what you can find there off the top of his head.

[DesignsOnline]

Thanks for the advice, it will be about a week before we continue with the build anyway, so plenty of time to find out about the correct glue etc...

[felps]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Liquid-Plastic-We ... 359dfc4aa4 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Liquid-Plastic-Weld-55ml-Bottle-/230283823780?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_J N&hash=item359dfc4aa4)

My sumps still holding together with it for 12 months so far :shock:

[DesignsOnline]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Liquid-Plastic-Weld-55ml-Bottle-/230283823780?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_J N&hash=item359dfc4aa4

My sumps still holding together with it for 12 months so far :shock:

There doesnt look like too much is in the bottle, how many bottles do you imagine I will need to build a scrubber acording to my design shown earlier in the thread?

[felps]

one bottle will be plenty

Do a search for "solvent welding acrylic" on youtube

here`s one to start you off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Ow_cBTps

[DesignsOnline]

one bottle will be plenty

Do a search for "solvent welding acrylic" on youtube

here`s one to start you off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6Ow_cBTps


Thank you very much for the tip, I have however sourced a jar of Methacrylate and bought 10 needles.
Aparently the public are not supposed to have this stuff but the Acrylic factory sold me a coffee jar full....

[DesignsOnline]

I will be continuing the build on Monday.

I have adjusted the sizes can any one comment of the new sizes please and what size tank it will be good for.

New size is 21 inches long by 14 inches high, with a screen that is 20 inches long by 13 inches high.
(lit front and back)

My tank most likely has deep penetration of phosphates in the live rock as it is covered in detritus and my skimmer packed in well over a year ago.
I want to "over-Scrub" to borrow from a skimmer term, to compensate for how much work it is going to have to do, and to hope to speed up the process...

[Floyd R Turbo]

So did you find out exactly what it in it? It will probably work fine, as will the e-bay stuff. You wick it in between the equivalent of a few drops will bond an entire 12" seam. My dad makes display cases and he goes through only one or two 4 fl oz jars per year

[DesignsOnline]

So did you find out exactly what it in it? It will probably work fine, as will the e-bay stuff. You wick it in between the equivalent of a few drops will bond an entire 12" seam. My dad makes display cases and he goes through only one or two 4 fl oz jars per year

So my coffee jar full is major over kill then....

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, you could build about 100 tanks from that. If it's the right stuff. Does it have an ingredient list?

[DesignsOnline]

Yeah, you could build about 100 tanks from that. If it's the right stuff. Does it have an ingredient list?

Im sure that the original tin did, but the just filled a coffee jar for me, it is clear like water and has some tiny whiteish crystals floating in it...
It is what they use at the factory for acrylic fabrication. (Aparently you are supposed to have a licence to use it, he did say be careful as you can faint from the fumes)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Weird about the crystals, those are probably acrylic shavings or something. I would think those would clog the needles. If he said it could make you faint it's probably Chloroform, which will work, but isn't exactly the best choice. I would think it would be fine for making your scrubber, 100x better than superglue. I don't know if I would make a large aquarium out of the stuff without knowing exactly what it is.

[DesignsOnline]

Weird about the crystals, those are probably acrylic shavings or something. I would think those would clog the needles. If he said it could make you faint it's probably Chloroform, which will work, but isn't exactly the best choice. I would think it would be fine for making your scrubber, 100x better than superglue. I don't know if I would make a large aquarium out of the stuff without knowing exactly what it is.
No it isnt chloroform because he said that they used to use that years ago, it is something else.
I cant remember what he said it was called, there were 2 longish words, one of them was Methacrylate, I dont remember the other one.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Probably something like Hydroxypropyl Methacrylic? Could be something like that. Sounds like some nasty stuff, but so I Methylene Chloride. I was just reading some data sheets on hyrdoxypropyl methacrylic...

[DesignsOnline]

In order to use this stuff I am going to need a syringe and a needle, however getting hold of one isnt so easy.
(Goodness knows how drug adicts manage it...)

Eventually I found a chemist that was willing to sell me one, it was 79p but only holds 0.5ml

[attachment=2:2g2b62y4]IMAG0022.jpg[/attachment:2g2b62y4]

[attachment=1:2g2b62y4]IMAG0023.jpg[/attachment:2g2b62y4]



I thought I would probably need much more than that and also wasnt sure how the stuff would react with the plastic and the rubber bung in the syringe, so I enquired on the cost for a pack of 10.
I was expecting a reply of £7.90 but I was wrong. Turns out that although they are 79pence each it only costs £2.19 for a pack of 10...


[attachment=0:2g2b62y4]IMAG0461.jpg[/attachment:2g2b62y4]

[DesignsOnline]

Close up on the needle tip...

[attachment=0:20mei9ul]IMAG0024.jpg[/attachment:20mei9ul]

[DesignsOnline]

These needles look big and cluncky but in fact they are very small, the width of the syringe body is only 5mm,
so the actual needle is unmeasurable using any kind of measurement tool I have as it is tiny...

[DesignsOnline]

The purpose of showing you all the needles is that if anyone from the UK is having trouble getting a needle for this job, then you could try your chemists and ask for an insulin syringe,
(comes with the needle already in place ).

[felps]

They will block up alot giving u less
control of the flow.
It`s manageable tho

[Gigaah]

Apparently great minds think alike. Here is a picture of a scrubber I built but never used. Its about 12x12. My lights are oriented differently tho. I used magnetic cabinet latches to hold the light sides on. Because you have to remove the sides to unscrew the bulbs for replacement since they are so close. I planned on soldering wires to the plugs ends Then insulating them with hot glue(this works pretty well). Those particular bulb sockets were really cheap at home depot so I devised a way to use them. I didn't really plan on having 10 cords comming out of the scrubber LOL even tho it might look that way.

I used loctite control gel ULTRA to assemble it.Thats why it looks kinda ugly and whitish..but it works. Its a gel rubber modified super glue. Works pretty damn well..its a scrubber..doesn't have to look pretty. Its the only glue that actually works on acyrlic(aside from using chemical to weld acrylic together).

Unfortunately I no longer have a use for this one so it never got finished. Its not perfect anyhow..as you can see. but it would work fine

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://www.craftics.net/ShowItems.aspx? ... Category=3 (http://www.craftics.net/ShowItems.aspx?Category=2&ParentCategory=3)

The needles will work, but the squeeze bottles with needles are better if you can get them, because you can fill the bottle, put the needle top on, squeeze out the air, the turn over and let the pressure off while you position the needle on the joint, then gently squeeze and slide across the joint.

Applying with a needle where you have to push on a plunger will take a lot of practice to get a good bubble-free joint. And the pros use the squeeze bottle BTW.

[DesignsOnline]

http://www.craftics.net/ShowItems.aspx?Category=2&ParentCategory=3

The needles will work, but the squeeze bottles with needles are better if you can get them, because you can fill the bottle, put the needle top on, squeeze out the air, the turn over and let the pressure off while you position the needle on the joint, then gently squeeze and slide across the joint.

Applying with a needle where you have to push on a plunger will take a lot of practice to get a good bubble-free joint. And the pros use the squeeze bottle BTW.


This time round im going to have to run with what I have got.
However if and what this goes well, I plan to build another one for the reef tank at my mothers house, and have an idea for a long thin over tank scrubber/overflow system.

[DesignsOnline]

Well im off to my mates in about half an hour to continue working on the scrubber....
Will post updates in due course

[DesignsOnline]

Just need to do the electrics now...

[DesignsOnline]

Ive got a few more photos for you from the days activity....
Just pulling them off the phone now.

[DesignsOnline]

The main center section is now done...

[attachment=1:w6gd6eau]IMAG0462.jpg[/attachment:w6gd6eau]


[attachment=0:w6gd6eau]IMAG0463.jpg[/attachment:w6gd6eau]

[DesignsOnline]

Next to go on were the bracing sections for the outside lighting areas...


[attachment=2:2xusxdn5]IMAG0464.jpg[/attachment:2xusxdn5]


[attachment=1:2xusxdn5]IMAG0465.jpg[/attachment:2xusxdn5]


[attachment=0:2xusxdn5]IMAG0466.jpg[/attachment:2xusxdn5]

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=2:2oymrrk6]IMAG0467.jpg[/attachment:2oymrrk6]



Put the screen in place with the pipe, (still not cut to house the screen yet though...)
[attachment=1:2oymrrk6]IMAG0468.jpg[/attachment:2oymrrk6]



I left drainage slots at the bottom of the lightling sections in case any water gets splashed in to that section...
[attachment=0:2oymrrk6]IMAG0469.jpg[/attachment:2oymrrk6]

[DesignsOnline]

Another End shot with the pipe in place...

[attachment=1:3jzd8pbn]IMAG0470.jpg[/attachment:3jzd8pbn]



Finally starting to look like a scrubber now with the lid in place too...

[attachment=0:3jzd8pbn]IMAG0471.jpg[/attachment:3jzd8pbn]

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=1:rlob5zcg]IMAG0472.jpg[/attachment:rlob5zcg]


coming together well now...
[attachment=0:rlob5zcg]IMAG0473.jpg[/attachment:rlob5zcg]

[DesignsOnline]

With the mirrored acrylic in one side...

[attachment=0:3ggw3kvu]IMAG0474.jpg[/attachment:3ggw3kvu]

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:23gzdxlq]IMAG0477.jpg[/attachment:23gzdxlq]

[DesignsOnline]

Mirrored Acrylic is now front ant back and also on the sides to bounce light back in to the scrubber...

[attachment=0:1f3m5tfb]IMAG0480.jpg[/attachment:1f3m5tfb]

[DesignsOnline]

Thats the lot for now, I am still yet to plumb it in properly and wire up lighting etc....
I will get more photos of that later and post them up...

[DesignsOnline]

I had hoped to get away without needing to use cable ties, but the flow is so strong that the screen is just pushed right out an bows under the water.
There was a whole inch of screen inside the pipe too with the bottom of the screen resting on the bottom of the scrubber, so if there was not so much water rushing down it, it would stand up fine on its own, but it doesnt...

I now need to find some cable ties...

[DesignsOnline]

They will block up alot giving u less
control of the flow.
It`s manageable tho

They didnt block up, but it was very very slow going...
Some of the larger areas I used a different syringe without a needle, and that was much better.

[DesignsOnline]

Apparently great minds think alike. Here is a picture of a scrubber I built but never used. Its about 12x12. My lights are oriented differently tho. I used magnetic cabinet latches to hold the light sides on. Because you have to remove the sides to unscrew the bulbs for replacement since they are so close. I planned on soldering wires to the plugs ends Then insulating them with hot glue(this works pretty well). Those particular bulb sockets were really cheap at home depot so I devised a way to use them. I didn't really plan on having 10 cords comming out of the scrubber LOL even tho it might look that way.

Mixing saltwater & electrics is always a tricky business, im yet to see how the lighting I have in mind works out...


I used loctite control gel ULTRA to assemble it.Thats why it looks kinda ugly and whitish..but it works. Its a gel rubber modified super glue. Works pretty damn well..its a scrubber..doesn't have to look pretty.
I agree with you there 100%.



Its the only glue that actually works on acyrlic(aside from using chemical to weld acrylic together).

Unfortunately I no longer have a use for this one so it never got finished. Its not perfect anyhow..as you can see. but it would work fine

I see where you were going with that design, it is similar in a way, but the problem I would have with that design is fitting it above the sump under the tank.
I only have a very limited space, and even my 21 inch long, by 14 inches high by 8 inches deep scrubber unit take up more space than I thought it would under there...

[Gigaah]

Yeah I didn't have much of a limit on space when that one was being built. So was able to go really cheap. My new pico scrubber however I am VERY limited on space. So much so I have to head down the LED road.

When I was making the one I posted pictures of. I too intended on mirrors. But some lighting guys chimed in and said that if you can't have a proper reflector white is better than mirror..I forget why..something to do with the way the light bounces around. Shrug.

[DesignsOnline]

Thats interesting...
So they were saying that no reflector is better than mirrors?
I wonder why? It should help with the spread of light....

[jnad]

I would bee very interested in more inputs about mirror as reflector, i am using one :o

Jnad

[rygh]

The white paint / mirror comment might have been me.
It all depends on what you need the light to do, because it is very different.
Mirrors bounce the light in a very specific way, opposite of the way it hits.
White paint bounces the light in a completely random direction.
(Specular versus diffuse)
As far as efficiency, a really high end polished reflector is better. But white paint will beat
simple aluminum foil pretty easily.

For bulbs, where you have light coming out the back, and want to get it bounced around to the front,
you definitely want a reflector.

For LEDs, where all of the light is out the front, there are issues with spotting, and you really just want
to get the light at the sides in, it is probably better to use white paint, to make the light bounce around as much as possible.

That said : My most recent "reflector" on LEDs was a simple 1" PVC pipe, about 3/4" long, glued around the LED.
Worked great. Super simple and cheap.

[DesignsOnline]

Ive read quite a few posts regarding the need for a "Roughed up" screen and people having problems without one,
So I thought it would be an interesting experiment to run the scrubber with half of the screen roughed up and half
as it comes.

It isnt properly wired up yet, but I have had it running for just over a day so far with a couple of temporary lights
hooked up, and can already see some "browning" of the screen...

It has a standard 60watt bulb and a standard 100 watt bulb both on the same side at the moment.
I will let it run as it is for a week or so, while I gather the bits I need to run the 6 x 30watt energy saver bulbs.

[DesignsOnline]

Temporary lights rigged up, and screen in place temporarily...

[attachment=0:25vkkk7x]IMAG0481.jpg[/attachment:25vkkk7x]

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:5u52gnwi]IMAG0482.jpg[/attachment:5u52gnwi]

[DesignsOnline]

Showing the cut off valve at the side that can be opened to bypass the scrubber when changing the screnn or when required...

[attachment=0:21tgrknw]IMAG0483.jpg[/attachment:21tgrknw]

[DesignsOnline]

A close up of the screen to show that some small growth has already started in places.
(I was shocked after 1 day to see any growth...)

[attachment=0:2790nzry]growth-started.jpg[/attachment:2790nzry]

[DesignsOnline]

im getting a very good fast, strong and even flow of water over the screen...

[attachment=0:1o149w21]IMAG0484.jpg[/attachment:1o149w21]

[Floyd R Turbo]

I guess I don't know why you're trying it with part of the screen roughed up. The algae will detach with any weight. You'll get the brown slime / diatom, but anything else will wash back into the DT

[DesignsOnline]

I just thought it would make a useful visual example to show the growth roughed up and not...

[SantaMonica]

I'm glad you are just experimenting. Those incandescent bulbs on that big screen are not going to do anything.

[DesignsOnline]

There is 160 true watts there on one side, how many watts do you believe it needs per side?

[DesignsOnline]

I'm glad you are just experimenting. Those incandescent bulbs on that big screen are not going to do anything.
When you say they are not going to do anything I assume that they wont do any less than they would on a smaller screen, so if the same amount of algae that would grow on a smaller screen will also grow on this larger screen, it will therefore work, and I will have the scope for improvement that wouldnt be there in the case of a much smaller scrubber...?

[jnad]

The white paint / mirror comment might have been me.
It all depends on what you need the light to do, because it is very different.
Mirrors bounce the light in a very specific way, opposite of the way it hits.
White paint bounces the light in a completely random direction.
(Specular versus diffuse)
As far as efficiency, a really high end polished reflector is better. But white paint will beat
simple aluminum foil pretty easily.

For bulbs, where you have light coming out the back, and want to get it bounced around to the front,
you definitely want a reflector.

For LEDs, where all of the light is out the front, there are issues with spotting, and you really just want
to get the light at the sides in, it is probably better to use white paint, to make the light bounce around as much as possible.

That said : My most recent "reflector" on LEDs was a simple 1" PVC pipe, about 3/4" long, glued around the LED.
Worked great. Super simple and cheap.

Hello!

Today i took a white photo paper that is very white and glossy, cut it inn to shape and slided it inn front of my "mirror" reflector. I could not see any improvements in light intensity, at least not with the naked eye.

I do agree that a flat mirror will reflect the light from a flashlight directly to back the light source, and will not be any good used as reflector.

But what if the mirror is bent in a curve just like all ordenary reflectors are made?? Does the mirror then reflect the light in all directions just like a reflector??

Just asking beacuse if my mirror reflector is no good i have to change it. I have used a repare cit for car mirrors as reflector, this mirror is flexible and i have bendt it in a curve just like a reflector.

jnad

[rygh]

If you have a standard CFL bulb, it is essentially a point source, with light radiating all around.
For that, you want a concave mirror behind it, with the bulb at the focal point.

Some links that might help explain it.
http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Reflection.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curved_mirror
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/refln/u13l3c.cfm

[SantaMonica]

Puting a larger screen on the same bulb does not increase filtering; it reduces it, because the extra screen only gets weak light, and weak light only grows dark algae, and dark algae produces more DOC than it does more growth. And since you can't export DOC, it does not really help filtering (although it does feed corals).

You want all parts of your screen to be within the same distance of the light source, which is why T5's are best.

[DesignsOnline]

Pease can you define DOC?

[DesignsOnline]

Have got much more growth starting on the screen today by the way. Im very pleased with the way this is turning out.
Ive ordered some of the electrics from ebay to wire in the lights, but im yet to choose the bulbs. Ive realised that I can get
18 watt energy saver bulbs (claim to be be 60watt equivilents) much cheaper. I could run 6 of those on each side, 12 in total...
Or I could stick to my original plan and run 6 x 30watt (150 watt equivilent per bulb, or 900 watts equivilent total)

[rygh]

IMO : 12 x 18 watts with individual reflectors would be better.
Better spread, slightly more efficient.

Although with a big scrubber like that, really consider T5's.
Again, with individual reflectors, a bit like here http://www.aquacave.com/aquactinics-t5- ... -2278.html (http://www.aquacave.com/aquactinics-t5-reflectors-br-wclips-2278.html)
Or just buy a good fixture.

Maybe LEDs someday. But probably best to experiment more first.

[SantaMonica]

Dissolved Organic Carbon

[DesignsOnline]

Dissolved Organic Carbon
Thank you

[jnad]

If you have a standard CFL bulb, it is essentially a point source, with light radiating all around.
For that, you want a concave mirror behind it, with the bulb at the focal point.

Some links that might help explain it.
http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Reflection.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curved_mirror
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/refln/u13l3c.cfm

Hello!

Thanks for the answer and links.

There was a lot of thecnical english but if i did understand it right it is possible to use a mirror as an reflector, but it has to be curved in a concave shape??

jnad

[DesignsOnline]

So that would mean then that the same principle would apply to using silver foil, it would be no good if it was flat...

[DesignsOnline]

Right so ive ordered a box of 40 x 18 watt equivilent to 82 watt 2700k energy saver bulbs
I will be running 6 bulbs in the front (with 3 higher up and 3 lower down) and the same again on the back of the screen.
As the screen is only 21 inches long and 14 inches high and the bulbs are around 2.5 inches wide there will not be much space between bulbs...
There should be no problems with light now...

Im also going to heat and bend the accrylic mirrors to create highly effective reflectors for the front and back.
Then we will see what this scrubber can really do....

[DesignsOnline]

Ive got some red patches on the screen today...

[DesignsOnline]

My Box of 40 bulbs arrived today....

[attachment=0:1qxogwo3]IMAG0497.jpg[/attachment:1qxogwo3]

[DesignsOnline]

So I popped out and bought the electric I needed and set about atarting to wire up the scrubber...

[attachment=0:2cdcztsr]IMAG0496.jpg[/attachment:2cdcztsr]

[DesignsOnline]

So far I just have the 6 lower lights wired in...
6 more to go, but im waiting for the slip on angled lamp holders to arrive first before I can add those!

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:2zmt5x2u]IMAG0498.jpg[/attachment:2zmt5x2u]

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:34oc7szo]IMAG0495.jpg[/attachment:34oc7szo]

[DesignsOnline]

I have each light wired up seperatly and all plugged in to a surge protected extention socket,
instead of wiring them all in to a single junction box and then having one plug come out from that....

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:1vrnz614]IMAG0499.jpg[/attachment:1vrnz614]

[DesignsOnline]

What the photo above doent show you is the reflectors configuration im using at the moment...
I took the oportunity as I have the scrubber apart to wire up to clean the screen and give it a propper "Rough up" all oover the screen, I couldnt be bothered just growing out part of the screen. so im starting again with a propper screen.
behind the bulds is a slightly curved accrylic mirror tilting back reflecting the light up, and above the lights facing down is another mirror reflecting the light back down on to the screen...

[DesignsOnline]

Each of those bulbs shown in the photo above is now about an inch from the acrylic and an inch and a half to 2 inches from the screen itself...
The bulbs currently are only lighting the lower half of the screen I will be adding 6 more to light the upper part of the screen in between the spaces of the existing bulbs...

[DesignsOnline]

Something strange happened, I changed my photo period from 9 hours to 18 hours as recommended by Santamonica, and over night the screen went from a black/dark red-brown colour to bright green...
There isnt an awful lot of algae growth on the screen yet, but it was covered in a strange dark stuff, which has now all turned green. Im pretty excited...

[Floyd R Turbo]

That was to be expected. If you were running at 9 hours, and now at 18, you effectively doubled your filtering time and this mean lower nutrient water on average, resulting in lighter, green growth.

[SantaMonica]

I am surprised... I had no idea :)

[DesignsOnline]

It looks like im starting again, I used the bypass valve to pass the water through a filter sock and then forgot to switch the flow back to the scrubber till the next day, so the screen dried out, and was baked by the lights.
So now im back to a mostly white screen again..... :lol:

[Floyd R Turbo]

oops.

[SantaMonica]

was baked by the lights.

That's called "making brownies" :)

[DesignsOnline]

was baked by the lights.

That's called "making brownies" :)

Cant say I would like to taste them though.....

[DesignsOnline]

It is coming back much faster though this time round.
I have some green growth on the back of the screen where the light is closer, and loads of dark growth over the screen on the front where the lights are bout an inch further away.
I have this afternoon tried swapping out the acrylic miror for a handmade silverfoil reflector.

Im still waiting for the extra light holders to arrive. When they do I will be doubling the lights from 6 to 12.

[DesignsOnline]

The extra lights I ordered from eBay have arrived now and been added to the 6 existing lights.
So now im running 12 x 18w CFLs 18 hours a day. On Monday I will take the screen out and see what it looks like after its first week.
(The second week will be with 12 lights rather than 6 so I will expect better growth the second week)

[DesignsOnline]

who has experience running red sea Pulsing Xenia and a Scrubber, do they mix well?

Theoretically they should be happier in a scrubber system than a skimmed one as they are filter feeders

[Floyd R Turbo]

They absolutely loved my system. So did Anthelia / waving hand. Spread like crazy. SM said he didn't think they would because they like N and P. My tank has zero N and some P but I think you're right they mainly photosynthetic and filter feeders. I just took all them out because they were taking over my tank, fragged a bunch on to rubble rock & will try sending some to SM so see how they do in his system. If they survive in his, then that pretty much eliminates the only coral group that theoretically would not like the scrubber water. But I think you are right, scrubber water with high amounts of coral food should mean good growth. I run a mixed tank with species all over the board and so far, everything does just fine.

[DesignsOnline]

ok this is week 1 over, so here come a few photos...

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:1do9jcg0]week1-inplace.jpg[/attachment:1do9jcg0]

[DesignsOnline]

The photo above shows the placement of the lighting, and how close the lights are to each other, and to the screen.

[DesignsOnline]

I did find that removing the lid of the scrubber with all the lights hanging from it in this way is a major pain in the rear.
I will need to find a way of holding the lid out of the way in the future.

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:2vc5q2n0]screen-week1.jpg[/attachment:2vc5q2n0]

This is the screen after the first week, it is actually bright green mostly, but for some reason it came out very dark in the photo.
I will upload a close up to show the algae that has grown this week...

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:13uzkfi6]screen-week1-close.jpg[/attachment:13uzkfi6]

[DesignsOnline]

and another one showing a vertical shot of the screen...

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:3w2p34oi]screen-week1-close2.jpg[/attachment:3w2p34oi]

[DesignsOnline]

I have to say it has made an amazing difference to the tank already...

[DesignsOnline]

Here is a photo of the screen cleaned very carefully after the first week...

[DesignsOnline]

[attachment=0:3q0vewo0]cleaned-after-week1.jpg[/attachment:3q0vewo0]

[DesignsOnline]

So what is the general opinion of the state of the screen and the effectivness of the scrubber after the first week?

I noticed there was a patch in the middle that looked burned, also there isnt any 3d growth yet, but it is only week 1
so I dont know if that is to be expected after week 1 or not, what are your expert opinions?

[Floyd R Turbo]

For week one of growth, that's stellar. Your screen holes are already starting to fill in. Even if you don't get 3D growth that's a very powerful scrubber. I wouldn't worry much about the burned spot. It looks like 1/2 your bulbs hang vertically and the others are clip-on that have a slight angle. The tip of the bulb might be getting a little close to the screen, that's all. If you can rig up holes and hang the others that might help.

Great build!!

[SantaMonica]

Need to clean sooner... it got too heavy and let go in that one spot.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hey I just remembered that you had built this thing with 1/2 of the screen roughed up, and the other was not roughed up. Is it still this way, or did you rough all of it up?

You may need to rough-up the part you already roughed up a little more if you're getting detachment.

[DesignsOnline]

Hey I just remembered that you had built this thing with 1/2 of the screen roughed up, and the other was not roughed up. Is it still this way, or did you rough all of it up?

You may need to rough-up the part you already roughed up a little more if you're getting detachment.

No I decided that it wasnt worth wasting time demonstrating something that was already known and accepted, so I roughed both sides of the screen.
However the middle was probably the least roughed up partof the screen. (None of it was roughed up particularly well...
I need to get some heavy sandpaper and rought it all up properly sometime.

The problen is, that a design fault of my scrubber is how difficult it is to get the top open and get the screen out.
It seems to work really well, but it is a major pain in the neck dismantling it.

I thought of the same point though and I think you are right it could very likely be the fact that the screen is not sufficiently roughed up....

[Floyd R Turbo]

You need to use a hole saw and spend about 15-20 minutes on each side of the screen. You should get about 2 tablespoons of material off each side (of a 10x10 section). Sandpaper will not do.

[DesignsOnline]

You need to use a hole saw and spend about 15-20 minutes on each side of the screen. You should get about 2 tablespoons of material off each side (of a 10x10 section). Sandpaper will not do.

Really, I havent got a hole saw, I run a website design and search engine optimisation company, and I have no need for tools generally.
This is why I borrowed tools from a freind for this build...

I do have a spare screen that im going to get prepared, the idea being that once this screen is ready I will put it in the sunp under the scrubber to get it "Live" and ready to put in place after I remove the screen to clean, then I will put the cleaned screen in the sump under the scrubber ready for next week, to replace the dirty screen with etc and keep swapping them over this way.

What do you think are there any reasons why this would not be a good idea?

[Floyd R Turbo]

You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. You just need to go to the HW store and get a hole saw for cutting a hole in a door (like for a handle), which costs probably $5, then get a plastic cutting board, sit outside or in your garage (because it gets messy) for an hour or so and rub that hole saw back and forth on the screen until it's prickly. You need no power tools, only the saw itself.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Miscellaneous/ATS%20Designs/HoleSaw.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Miscellaneous/ATS%20Designs/Canvas.jpg

[DesignsOnline]

I have today done my spare screen, I used a hacksa blade and laid the screen over the back edge of a pastic washing up bowl.
Have acheived a pretty rough surface....

[DesignsOnline]

Im having a similar problem with the centre of the screen bare white area again this week.
Closer examination revealed that the centre is bone dry, the areas where the flow is ok is
thick with growth and the centre is dry.

So I have just opened the slot a little bit wider where the screen is dry. I will be cleaning it
again tomorrow and starting again.

I might just get it perect one day...! :lol: