26.5"x26" cheap lighting ideas?

[joelespinoza]

Hey guys, I just found this board, however I have been designing my first saltwater tank which is a 55 with a 40 breeder sump, and was planning on using a deep sand bed, live rock and a algal screen filter as my only filtration. This is going to be a FOWLR tank. I am a college student so everything has to be done as cheap as reasonably possible.

The sump sticks out the back further than the display tank, so I made my 1.5" return go horizontally accross the back of the 55 tank and the screen will hang from it into the sump, to create a waterfall. I was planning on flowing about 1000gph and figured 2 sections 13.5" wide would work for the screen, but it is a 26" drop, so I am looking at a ~27"x26" screen.

My issue here is I am not sure where I should start with lighting this, and I can realistically only light it on one side (welll... kinda... it would be akward and funky to light both sides) And with the size of this screen it would seem I would need a TON of light. So does anyone have any recomendations on cheap lighting, or on the design as a whole or any aspects of it? I am pretty good DIY kinda guy and am willing to attempt about anything.

Thanks in advance for your time!

[joelespinoza]

With a fixed amount of light, is a smaller screen better than a larger screen? I could drop the top of the screen down, and perhaps lower the screen size to maybe 27"x10", that might increase the flow pressure some, since there would be more weight pressing down on the water at the top of the screen. Would this be more effective if my light is limited?

Here is a picture that shows my situation to some extent, I will try to get a better one later, the screen will hang off the 1.5" pipe that goes the length of the top tank:
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/229718_250414721649295_100000423081766_902730_1520 906_n.jpg


This is my faacebook album of the project, should be visable to everyone who has a facebook account, sadly I dont know how to make it visible to the general public: http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?s ... 0423081766 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.250414191649348.66675.100000423081766)

[SantaMonica]

Smaller screen with brighter light are always better than vise versa. And 2-sided is always better than 1... for the same wattage, 2-sided provides twice the filtering. You really only have room for 1 sided, however, unless you turn it 90 degrees and make it narrow.

It looks like you can fit CFL's in there... the utility light version:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/UtilityLight.jpg

[joelespinoza]

I saw these today 24" 17w Grow Light, they cost 10 bucks each at the local wally world: http://www.conservationmart.com/p-431-l ... oogle_base (http://www.conservationmart.com/p-431-loa-24-17w-grow-light-stick-7020gl-under-cabinet-light.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=Product_Search&utm_campaign=google_base)

They have them in several color temps, not just grow lights, or would grow lights be better? Or would CF lights with utility reflectors be better?

[SantaMonica]

That's only 17 watts of light, which would be good for a 17 gal tank, and only if all parts of the screen were within 2" of the bulb; preferably 1", since it's a weak bulb.

I'd do 2 or 3 CFL bulbs instead.

[joelespinoza]

Sorry I should have made it clear I was thinking more than one of them. I was thinking more like 4-6 of them. Would the CF have better light projection?

[SantaMonica]

Ok if you stack them up one inch apart, it would work. The last 2" of the bulbs don't do anything, so you can make the screen shorter.

[joelespinoza]

What do you think of adding something like this to them? http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Rosco ... ory=552363 (http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Rosco-Cinegel-3801-Roscoflex-M?sc=25&category=552363) It comes in strips the right length, The minimum order looks like 2, and I think 24"x40" of reflector would be sufficient, although I plan to call them and ask some questions about it.

Here is their page for their reflective media sheets: http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Stage ... ve-Media_2 (http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Stage-Lighting-Store/Reflective-Media_2)

My other option for lighting both sides (the funky version) is to cover the wall and the back of the fish tank with aluminum foil (or the above listed material if it is somewhat water resistant) and overdrive 24" t8 bare bulbs (~$2 each) with a 48" shop light ballast from wally world (~$10).


EDIT: While I was thinking bare bulbs for water resistance... I guess I could just use the 48" fixture, take it apart, cut it down by 24" and then put in the 24" bulbs. Each one would produce easily produce 3x-4x the light of the other fixture I was looking at and would cost about $14 each... hmmmm

Either way.. would 2700-3000 bulbs or "grow" bulbs be better for algae growth?

[Floyd R Turbo]

What about the SunBlaze strips from Sunlight supply? You can daisy-chain 10 of them together, T5HO 24" 24W lamps

https://www.aghydroponics.com/product-p ... 960315.htm (https://www.aghydroponics.com/product-p/litt5strip-960315.htm)

And you can get their reflectors too but they're not very reflective. I would laminate that flexible stuff to them.

Also I would strongly suggest making a good acrylic shield if you're going to hang your slot tube in the open along the back of the tank like that. Plus a union for removing the tube and cleaning.

[joelespinoza]

I wonder if 24w T5HO bulbs put out more light than 17w t8's overdriven to 32w....? Anyone have a guess on that? The dual T8 fixtures will cost me $11 each, not sure how much bulbs are (for T8 or T5HO), or even if I can get them locally.... I have read that the light range prefered is sub 3000k, anyone know if that is superior to "grow" bulbs with the high red/blue content?


On a side note, how do coated/baked screens compare to just scratched screens? I was fooling around and decided to bake used carbon onto a screen, seems pretty viable, but would have worked better if I had a bit more carbon:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0064Large.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

So far, I think the roughed up screen is superior. But you're only the second one I've seen do that. I would not have used carbon, since once it's used up it can leech unwanted compounds back into the water column. I would have used aragonite, and a, extremely light coating, because you don't want to block the light that comes from the other side. i.e. don't fill the holes.

[SantaMonica]

I'm sure the surface is rough enough, but it's 1-sided, which will require twice the total wattage to get the same filtering.

[joelespinoza]

I did some thinking and some revising of my plan, I dropped the overflow pipe down to keep things under control, and I got 2 of the Sunblaze strips that Floyd R Turbo mentioned, I had ordered 4 and and was going to get that reflective material I linked in an earlier post, but they only had 2 lights in stock and that company with the reflective material has not replied to any of my E-mails.

Anyway heres what I currently have going on, these pictures are MUCH darker than reality, even with only 2 of those lights its VERY bright back there:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0077Large.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0078Large.jpg

Those are 2 full size 10.5" x 13.5" screens, with the water flowing over the length of the screen, so 21" of total width. Eventually I will try to get another 2 lights, some reflective material, and a plexi shield over the pipe and screen, probably 2 thin plexi sheets that bend over the pipe on top and then fall straight down into the sump, so I can lift it off.

This is my first saltwater tank, and I made a very simple overflow, thinking that this would work for now:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0076Large.jpg

I was clearly wrong there, this 1.5" overflow pipe does not flow NEARLY enough water, unless it hits a full siphon, then it sucks the tank down a couple inches, flings water everywhere and sounds like the toilet of doom being flushed. So right now I have the sump return pump throttled way back, until I can figure out how to fix it. Sadly this means my water flow over the screens is not nearly enough.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this setup as a whole or any parts of it are greatly appreciated.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I was clearly wrong there, this 1.5" overflow pipe does not flow NEARLY enough water, unless it hits a full siphon, then it sucks the tank down a couple inches, flings water everywhere and sounds like the toilet of doom being flushed. So right now I have the sump return pump throttled way back, until I can figure out how to fix it. Sadly this means my water flow over the screens is not nearly enough.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this setup as a whole or any parts of it are greatly appreciated.


Buy one of these or make a similar one if you can.

I had one, worked great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSYqSeW1mQg


Here's one running, just like the one I had

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H2WSz3Fd-o


http://www.glass-holes.com/Super-Nano-O ... cstrfrnt06 (http://www.glass-holes.com/Super-Nano-Overflow-Kit-ghsnanokit.htm;jsessionid=12613974B1406CEE641A150F 915D6127.qscstrfrnt06)

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Or.... you might try pushing a bit of airline down the pipe that you already have and using a little airline valve to control the amount of air that can get sucked into it.

Not sure that will work for what you have there but if you can get it so it allows just enough air into the pipe (at a level a few inches lower than the water intake, you might find that the air will displace some of the water in the pipe and slow down the water flow so that only water is taken into the funnel thing you have there and cuts down or eliminates the slurping.

Not 100% convinced that'll work for what you have but it's worth a try for the cost of a bit of airline.

[joelespinoza]

The airline does seem to help with the flushing action, so that helped. I cant run it at max compacity of the pump, but at least I can run more without it waking me up every 5 minutes.

I am not a master of flow dynamics, however I dont see how that type of overflow could flow more than mine through the same sized pipe.


Here is a video of my overflow, hopefully it makes clear my point. Maybe this is just how much a 1.5" overflow is capable of handling? On another forum I was told 1400 GPH was about max for a 1.5" overflow, but perhaps they were just wrong.


Click the image to play the video
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/th_PICT0077_mpeg4.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/?action=view&current=PICT0077_mpeg4.mp4)

[SantaMonica]

You are going to need to do a lot of work on the lights. All the light is being lost to the sides, and, it's too far from the screen. Try to stack the bulbs every 1.5 inches, with individual reflectors around each bulb (not one big one behind it). Since those are normal output T5, they will need all the reflecting they can get in order to power the screen.

Actually, it looks like you have enough room to hang a CFL...

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/PaperPlateFoil.jpg

[joelespinoza]

Are you sure they are not T5HO? They say that, but they may be lying.

There is 8.5" from the wall to the tank stand, and I do plan on adding at least 2 more lights and reflectors, I could certainly move the lights closer to the screen but I am somewhat worried about overspray, especially once the flow gets cranked up.

As much help as my lighting needs, I dont think the lighting is my biggest issue right now. The low flow is my primary concern at the moment, at a rough estimate I am probably getting 400-500 GPH flow right now, if it is 450 GPH that equates to about 21 GPH per inch of screen. I think if I get the lighting cranked up before I fix the flow I will just burn the algae. Also keep in mind I currently dont have any livestock in this tank and my display lighting is (temporarily) a crappy t-8 shoplight. So for the moment it does not have a ton of nurtients to get rid of, and the screen algae does not have much competition from the display tank lighting.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0078Large-1.jpg

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Here is a video of my overflow, hopefully it makes clear my point. Maybe this is just how much a 1.5" overflow is capable of handling? On another forum I was told 1400 GPH was about max for a 1.5" overflow, but perhaps they were just wrong.


Your sump is quite large. With that in mind what you might try is to take off the funnel thing & add a 90 degree bend but have it pointing downwards. Then remove some water, reducing the level in the sump so that when the return pump is off the sump has room for the water which drops from the display tank to the sump (ie, so the sump doesn't overflow).

This could mean that you'd have a syphon effect all the time and would give you a lot more flow.

You'd need to have some find of strainer over the inlet to stop any small fish or snails from going up there though.

You'd also need to drill a hole in the top of the 90 degree bend just large enough to tightly fit your length of airline into it so that you don't get an airlock causing a flood when your pump comes back on again. If you fit the airline with a little valve you'll also be able to fine tune the flow so you don't get any slurping (or at least reduce it).


Personally though I'd go for one of the glass-holes overflow boxes. As I said, I've had one & they do work very well.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Those are T5HO Fixtures and if the lamps are 24W then they are T5HO lamps. Usually the ones that come with those are 5000K or 6500K IIRC. You want 2700-3000K aghydroponics.com PlantMax Red/Bloom lamps is what I use. I'm personally very concerned with your overflow system. That's an accident waiting to happen. If it were me, I'd take the tank down and re-work the whole overflow system before worrying about the scrubber, but that's just me.

[joelespinoza]

personally very concerned with your overflow system. That's an accident waiting to happen. If it were me, I'd take the tank down and re-work the whole overflow system before worrying about the scrubber, but that's just me.

Thats about my thoughts as well, I am still considering what I should do about said overflow....

I am not THAT concerned about the level of noise, I actually like the sound of continous flowing water, the current sound of the tank in my room is great white noise at night. However I cant have the sound changing, I dont want to wake up every 10 minutes with the fear my tank is overflowing, that just wont do.

I could do a box like the glass holes overflow, that would be simple enough, but honestly I still dont see how it will outflow mine, unless it switches back and forth between siphon and non siphon flow, and I can have that for the above reason.

So right now I am considering how to do a dual overflow (or triple overflow ala http://beananimal.com/projects/silent-a ... ystem.aspx (http://beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx)) I guess the simpleset method would be to leave my existing overflow as it is and start a full siphon overflow of a smaller size, perhaps 3/4". That way I could have a full time siphon, and my existing overflow as the catch all for anything the siphon cant flow. Does that sound fairly safe? Or like an accident waiting to happen?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't see how you can do it though without tearing the tank down and drilling it and adding an internal weir.

[kentth]

You can build an external overflow box, like this one http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/overflow.html That is what I have been using for years.

If I was going to start all over. I would have holes drilled in the tank and us an internal overflow box, very easy to build. The external one works great, except your overflow portion really needs to be made out of smoke or black acrylic, Algae will grow in the overflow and blocks the flow, I put electrical tape over it. I have to soak the unit in vinegar about once a year, and get the coralline algae out of it. You so need to attach a siphon line to the top of the overflow to draw off any air that will get trapped.

This weekend I upgraded my pump from a mag 3 to a mag 9.5, my overflow box cannot handle the pump capacity, since it is only 7" long. I have double 1" return lines, so if I could get the water through the overflow portion, then it should be able to handle the 700 GPH that pump sends out. So instead of 700 GPH I am running 500 GPH, better then the 250 I had previously. You could also build a longer over flow box, for 700 GPH it needs to be about 11" long.

Kent

[joelespinoza]

I don't see how you can do it though without tearing the tank down and drilling it and adding an internal weir.

Not sure why I would have to tear it down? I'll just turn off the pump, lower the water a bit and drill a hole in the glass....

[Floyd R Turbo]

Good luck with that. When you drill a hole in glass, you have to have it lubricated and horizontal, and under no pressure. Try drilling a hole in a partially filled tank with no lubrication or just spraying it with water and the tank will explode.

[joelespinoza]

Good luck with that. When you drill a hole in glass, you have to have it lubricated and horizontal, and under no pressure. Try drilling a hole in a partially filled tank with no lubrication or just spraying it with water and the tank will explode.

Ehh its not hard. I drilled the other 2 holes with the tank setup, cant see how a 3rd would be an issue. For the big hole I kept the water level right at the bottom of the hole, when the drill spins it self lubricates nicely. For the small one I used a condiment bottle that I use to clean the tank. If you wanted to get fancy you could set a big container full of tank water and let it siphon through an airline tube on to the bit.

Either way with a tank this thick its not a problem, although a tank with thinner glass (like a 5-10 gallon tank) could be trouble, but on the other hand a tank that small is easy to tear down.

[joelespinoza]

I heard back from the guys about these reflectors: http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Rosco ... ory=552363 (http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Rosco-Cinegel-3801-Roscoflex-M?sc=25&category=552363)
http://www.stagelightingstore.com/core/media/media.nl?id=49554&c=689066&h=df16575c4858edbfa406

To: advisor@stagelightingstore.com
Subject: Water/heat resistant reflective material?
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:13:34 -0700

Hi I work with saltwater aquariums and am curious how well Rosco Cinegel #3801: Roscoflex Mirror - 20” x 24” Sheet holds up to water and heat? Can it be submerged? or at least handle overspray? Or could it be used as a reflector for T5HO lighting, possibly even touching the bulb?

Joel



HI Joel,

Thank you for contacting the Stage Lighting Store. I forwarded your question to Rosco and here was the response:

Per Mike Wagner, the product manager. The product isn’t intended for or tested for salt water, but he can’t think of why it wouldn’t work.

Thanks,

Tad Wiggins
Stage Lighting Store
Lighting Sales Advisor
3061 N Philips Hwy
Suite 102
Jacksonville, Fl 32207

[SantaMonica]

Looks nice... someone try it.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Good luck with that. When you drill a hole in glass, you have to have it lubricated and horizontal, and under no pressure. Try drilling a hole in a partially filled tank with no lubrication or just spraying it with water and the tank will explode.


Someone on my local reefing forum did this and got away with it. Said it was easy.

I've drilled a few holes in glass tanks and certainly wouldn't fancy doing it that way though.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, I would personally never attempt it. It's a pain to tear a tank down, but if one thing goes wrong, it becomes full-out panic time!

[joelespinoza]

As I said before I wouldnt do it with thin glass, like single or double strength (3/32 or 1/8"), but this is 1/4" plate. Glass is a bit like steel, thicker is actually more forgiving. Here is 2 videos of me drilling over an existing hole with a larger hole, I also had to drill another hole for the return line in the middle and had to do that at a VERY akward angle from the back, I didnt take a video because I had my hands full.

That makes 4 holes I have drilled in this tank so far without an issue. Its really not hard as long as you go slow, keep water flowing over the bit, dont push hard, and keep the drill square the the glass. I find it also helps to work the drill around in a circle a bit, that augers out the hole a little and there is less chance of binding, avoiding binding is also why I turn the clutch all the way down.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/th_0903111332.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/?action=view&current=0903111332.mp4)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/th_0903111343.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/?action=view&current=0903111343.mp4)

[joelespinoza]

Here is my finished plumbing and the first light, I am going to put his twin directly above him and work out something else for the wall side. Sorry if they are to big, usually they resize automatically, but not today it seems...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0904112002.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0904111955.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0904111955a.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0904111955b.jpg

[joelespinoza]

Turns out I can barely fit a walmart reflector back there if I heavily modify the base.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0924111700.jpg

[SantaMonica]

That's not too bad. Reduce hours if you have to.

[joelespinoza]

Here is a better shot with my digital camera instead of my phone, I also got the second 24" tube mounted back up. I had to repair it after it fell in the sump.... The 2 tubes are each 24 watt T5 HO and the spiral bulb is a 26 watt (the highest they sell at the local walmart) they are all set to 16 hours a day.

Oddly enough the screen has never grown any substantial algae, even when I had both tubes up for a couple weeks I barely grow more than slime. There is nothing currently in the tank, and I havent fed it anythign since I added all the dead starter stuff a few months back that caused my algae plague (I hadnt realized the starter bacteria, copepods, live sand and live rock had all died in shipping, I blame Texas summer). I have been hoping that the screens will out compete the algae slime in the tank but to no avail, we will see what happens with these new lights.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0001Medium.jpg

These 2 shots are of the display tank, the algae has gone down somewhat since the original plague but its still a huge mess.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0004Medium.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/PICT0005Medium.jpg

[SantaMonica]

The new light will do it. The old lights won't do anything.

[joelespinoza]

Ok last lighting question I swear..... I went to walmart to get another 8.5" reflector and found some 2700k 55 watt spiral compact light bulbs on clearence. I set them up like the pictures below and removed the tube lights, the 24" tubes are just way to sensitive to salt overspray and are now doing a great job lighting my 30 gallon freshwater tank.

Do you think I am better off with the 2 55 watt lights at an angle like this? Or the 2 26 watt bulbs straight on like in the previous pictures? The back of the tank is WAYYYYY brighter than it looks in that picture, but you can see the setup and light consistantly here, I also get more light on the other side of the screens with this.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0926111929aMedium.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0926111841Medium.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Straight-on is better. The larger bulbs are loosing all their light to the sides.

[kerry]

Cut part of the reflector and insert it to the front of the screen. It appears if you just trimmed off a bit of the cone shape on the screen side you could slide it in further so it would be in front of the screen.

[NarkyMark]

I found some cheap Brackenheath 36w portable floodlights on eBay, £9.95 each Plus a single postage charge of £4.95 so less than £25 for 72W
I ended using some Arcadia Arc-Pods with cheap 2700k G23's because I wanted my AS to be a feature and they do look nice :) :roll: :)

Here are my Brackenheaths (I just removed the worklight framing and modified a little and made a glass mounting rail and bolted them to it, a waste of time I know, but they will get used for something one day :) ) :

http://www.nwaf.eu/images/Brackenheath-36W.JPG

HTH

Mark

[NarkyMark]

Doh.....Just re-read I though by your OP title you were asking for ideas, my bad :oops:

[SantaMonica]

Wow that is a perfect light... what is the model number

[NarkyMark]

Hi Santa, do you mean of the whole light unit or the bulb? Eitherway I will have a look for numbers now! :)

[NarkyMark]

This is from the back of the light unit:

http://www.nwaf.eu/images/bhlight.JPG

I think if you Google Brackenheath Floodlight you will find them, as all the ones I have seen are a 36w spiral CFL.....

HTH

[joelespinoza]

Ok, so I have had the algae screens going good for a few weeks now and I cant seem to grow any green hair algae. All I get is the brown diatom sludge... and a bit of green cyanobacteria, I have yet to see a single green hair.

I have no measurable nitrates, nitrites or ammonia.

Any thoughts what I should do?

[kerry]

I am in the exact situation as you!! It works but its not green???

[SantaMonica]

More light, less hours.

[kerry]

And good range of how much more light and less time? 100%, 50%, or 25% more? What about time, I run about 16/8 hour schedule? Anyone have any good starter suggestion that has worked so we can make a more informed change to our routines? I run 2 23W cfl bulbs one on each side of a 9x6 screen. Thanks!!

[SantaMonica]

Twice the watts, half the hours.

[dirtefish]

This is from the back of the light unit:

http://www.nwaf.eu/images/bhlight.JPG

I think if you Google Brackenheath Floodlight you will find them, as all the ones I have seen are a 36w spiral CFL.....

HTH

These lights are awesome and perfect fit for what I would like to build. But there only available from UK?
Anyone know of a similar set up cheaply available in the states? I have searched for about 45 min and not found squat.

[kerry]

I did the same thing after I saw the post, nothing here that I found either.

[dirtefish]

Ya its weird there are a few different UK suppliers, but absolutely nothing like it in the states. Which sucks cause I really like that light design and would fit perfect into what I was designing.

Back to cfl bulbs and beer cans :(

[kerry]

I have great luck with the aluminum bottles by miller light, I also noticed coors has the same thing now to. All you do is cut the cap threads off and it fits the CFL bulb perfect.