ATS: Pushing the Limits...

[SeaTurtle]

When i first read about SM's ATS article in another site a couple of years back, i instantly got hooked. There are numerous claims on the web about the wonders of this filtration method and i wondered since then if these claims were true. Fortunately, i now had the chance to experiment on this through my daughter's investigatory project. So, on to the experiment...

DIY ATS specs: single screen (~10" x ~6"), 4 T5 NO's warm white, fed by a 2000lph pump
DIY ATS Thread >>> http://www.reefphilippines.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12984

AUG 1/11
since some of the claimed benefits of an ATS system is that it can also filter out heavy metals and provide the numerous vitamins and minerals needed to support demanding organisms , i decided to make the sw solution out of an ordinary saltmix and tap water...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG1.jpg

inside the ATS...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG1A.jpg

AUG 4/11
i did some tests...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG4TestA.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG4TestB.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG4B.jpg

...frankly i was a bit frustrated when i saw the readings.

AUG 11/11

after 10 days...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG11.jpg

no screen growth yet

AUG 13/11
i put this jar with organic waste in it... kitchen wastes, pingpong ball-sized dog poop :shock: , 2 tablespoons of fertilizer.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG13.jpg

and after a couple of hours here's what happened...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG13B.jpg

AUG 14/11
readings...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG14TestA.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG14TestB.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG14J.jpg

since i can't get the reading that i want, i added half of this to the water...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG14H.jpg

the back label says:
urea nitrogen = 19%
nitrate nitrogen = 19%
ammoniacal nitrogen = 2%
total phosphorous = 19%

AUG 16/11
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG16C.jpg

algae are now visible...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG16B.jpg

AUG 17/11
readings...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG17TestA.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG17TestB.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG17D.jpg

screen growth...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG17A.jpg

AUG 20/11

readings: ammonia continued to rise so as nitrite. but phosphate dropped from 10 to 5 in 3 days since the screen had almost tripled its growth.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG20TestA.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG20TestB.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG20D.jpg

tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG20A.jpg

algae growth: dark green & slimy
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG20B.jpg

AUG 21/11 (cleaning day)

algae growth (before cleaning the screening)...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG21E.jpg

after scraping the screen...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG21D.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG21B.jpg

the screen chamber (before cleaning)
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG21C.jpg

all cleaned up:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG21A.jpg

AUG 23/11

readings: ammonia is at exactly 8.0 compared to the last reading which is darker than 8.0 color guide...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG23A.jpg

the tank: coloration of the tank is still dark even after removing the jar last saturday (AUG 20)...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG23B.jpg

screen growth: algae is starting to build up again...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG23C.jpg

AUG 24/11

screen growth:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG24.jpg

suggestion are very much welcome. ;) i'll post more details later. thanks for viewing!

[SantaMonica]

Interesting that it grew green even with high N and P. The difference here is that urea/ammonia is high too. Of course, that is algae's favorite food.

It will take 5 or 10 screen cleanings to get that many nutrients out of the water.

[SeaTurtle]

yeah i figured that's the reason. i was actually expecting a dark growth...

btw, thanks again for helping me with the design and for sharing this very simple and yet efficient technology to us. more power! ;)

[Floyd R Turbo]

That...is...gross...and hilarious! The dog poop scrubber!

That screen material doesn't have much surface area. I take it plastic knitting canvas is hard to come by in the Philippines?

[SeaTurtle]

That...is...gross...and hilarious! The dog poop scrubber!

That screen material doesn't have much surface area. I take it plastic knitting canvas is hard to come by in the Philippines?

hahaha!! i was under the impression that the ats are now being used to treat waste water. so we've thought of simulating the water in the sewage...

yeah the screen lacks surface area compared to the knitting canvas even after achieving the cactus effect. we have the knitting canvas here but the thing is, i haven't found the chance of going to any store that has it yet due to work. but i'll change them soon.

[SantaMonica]

Yes, algae growth is a standard part of sewage reclamation, coming after the biological filtering stage.

[SeaTurtle]

these are some of the things that caught my interest...
http://continuingeducation.construction.com/article.php?L=227&C=698&P=1

http://www.oilgae.com/ref/report/wastewater_treatment/wastewater_treatment.html

http://www.zeitnews.org/biotechnology/algal-turf-scrubbers-clean-water-with-sunlight.html

[Floyd R Turbo]

I like that scrubber tower in that last article. Now that's a large scrubber!

[SeaTurtle]

i'd like to do the RAC some time... anybody did this before?

[Ace25]

I like that scrubber tower in that last article. Now that's a large scrubber!

That guy in the picture and the system behind him looks a lot like the guy in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebPtG6J-dg

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://www.algaewheel.com/

He tried to make it work for aquariums. Didn't fly.

Other thread on that here

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1273 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1273)

[SantaMonica]

The RAC is just a Bio Wheel for aquariums, from the 90's.

[SeaTurtle]

AUG 26/11

readings: ammonia is off the chart again. but nitrite, nitrate and phosphate decreased. ph remains the same...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG26A.jpg

the tank: still dark...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG26B.jpg

screen growth: the color of the algae lightened somehow...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG26C.jpg

[dtyharry]

That water looks like my local Bristol channel even with the second highest tidal range in the world!

[SeaTurtle]

i won't be surprised if a mutated organism comes out from it...

[SeaTurtle]

I like that scrubber tower in that last article. Now that's a large scrubber!

That guy in the picture and the system behind him looks a lot like the guy in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebPtG6J-dg

yep... it's him. great vid!

[SantaMonica]

More ammonia = more food for green growth.

The waste is still decomposing from organic into inorganic, so ammonia will continue to be produced.

[SeaTurtle]

and the ammonia will be converted directly to plant matter instead of turning into nitrite then nitrate, right? but let's say the ammonia along with nitrite, nitrate and phosphate dropped to 0, what will the algae consume?

[SantaMonica]

Nothing, it won't grow. It must have nitrogen in some form.

[SeaTurtle]

AUG 28/11

readings: ammonia still the same but there are noticeable decrease in NO2, NO3, and PO4 readings...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28A.jpg

the tank: still dark green... and there's a dead lizard floating there somewhere. :lol:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28A1.jpg

screen growth: dark green, slimy hair-like algae
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28B.jpg

cleaning...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28C.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28D.jpg

all cleaned up...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28E.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28F.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28G.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG28H.jpg

'til next log. thanks for viewing!

[SantaMonica]

Might be a reason to not have LR or sand in a FO... will leave more ammonia for green growth.

[Spartacus66]

Love this thread! Keep posting.


Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

[dtyharry]

Think I mentioned something along those lines before. If you had multiple algae screens being cleaned at different times you would not require live rock or sand for any filtration because there would always be algae present to utilise any ammonia being produced before it decomposed further.

[SeaTurtle]

since i can have more space by not putting too much lr's, i think i'll put in one of those castles in my tank next time. :lol:

[dtyharry]

And don't forget the diver with the air tube connected, bobbing about all over the place!

[SeaTurtle]

haha! that would be the centerpiece! :twisted:

[SeaTurtle]

AUG 30/11

readings: something happened... ammonia dropped to 0! i had my doubts so i did a retest and still got the same reading. NO2, NO3, PO4 showed a consistent drop even though the screen hasn't grow much algae yet. honestly, i thought the readings would rise because the screen was scraped off of its algae...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG30A.jpg

the retest... still got the same reading.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG30B.jpg

the tank...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG30C.jpg

the bottom can be seen now...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG30D.jpg

screen growth...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG30E.jpg
2 days after cleaning

[Floyd R Turbo]

Wow, that is very, very interesting. How can you go from 8ppm ammonia one day to 0 ppm 4 days later. That's crazy filtration man! I bet the high point of the ammonia was much higher. You should have diluted the sample with fresh water several times until it got into range so you knew where it was at before.

[SeaTurtle]

hmm... i've never thought of that. so what do you think i should do now?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah sorry I should have mentioned it before. Didn't occur to me at the time. I would see how long it takes to completely clear up the water, if it will even get clear, and see what happens to the algae growth.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Or now that you have a mature screen, you could start the experiment over, and only use the fertilizer this time. Put a measured amount in, let it mix well and then do the dilution tests. Actually I'm going to steal your method if you don't mind and run a few tests of my own.

[SeaTurtle]

Or now that you have a mature screen, you could start the experiment over, and only use the fertilizer this time. Put a measured amount in, let it mix well and then do the dilution tests. Actually I'm going to steal your method if you don't mind and run a few tests of my own.

...no problem. that way we can compare results. thanks!

[SeaTurtle]

AUG 31

since i wasn't really convinced of the readings yesterday despite of testing it twice, i did another test today...

readings: ammonia is still 0 so as nitrite. but nitrate rose by 5ppm. PO4 dropped to 0. :shock:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31A.jpg

the tank: there were bubble formations on the surface of the water that started last night. i found no micro bubbles coming from the ats' outflow so i was wondering what this reaction is all about... any ideas?
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31C.jpg

screen growth:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31D.jpg

and as mr. floyd suggested, i poured in another batch of fertilizer and see how the mature screen will do the filtration.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31E.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/AUG31F.jpg
this was about 50 grams of fertilizer

one question... how do i do the dilution test again? :?

[Mrcgibb]

Bubbles could be a sign of proteins ie same stuff skimmer removes the bubbles look scummy so prob excess proteins in water if you put a skimmer in there it would prob go nuts ;)

[SeaTurtle]

i see... that would probably be it. thanks!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Dilution test is just like it sounds. Mix up fresh saltwater, not much, maybe a gallon or less, all you will really need is about 1/4 cup of fresh SW.

Take a measured sample of the tank water. I have 5mL syringes that come with the Salifert test kits which make it much more accurate to dilute. If you don't have one, just use a medicine syringe like what you use to give babies liquid medicine.

So let's say you have a 10mL syringe. Start by diluting the tank water 4:1, so 4 syringes of fresh SW, 1 of dog poop water, giving 50mL total and 20% original concentration (40+10 = 50, 10/50 = 0.2 = 20%). Test that and multiply the result by 5 (5 * 20% = 100%).

If the reading is too high, then do 5mL tank water and 45mL fresh SW and multiply the result by 10. If the reading is STILL too high, then 5mL and 95mL and multiply by 20. It's always better to use a larger sample, like 20mL:380mL for the 20x test, or 10mL to 90L for the 10x test, less room for error. But don't mix the 4:1 sample, then take 5mL out for the test, and then dilute that sample again, unless you can do the math to account for the 5mL sample removed before you add fresh SW. Easier to just mix a new batch.

I had to do this several times on tanks that had N > 800. It works well and you can put the vials from each test right next to each other and you really start to understand exactly what color on that darn Nitrate test actually means 20 or 40.

[SeaTurtle]

ok i'll try to do that. thanks!

[srusso]

Excellent work! Keep posting the results!! I may need to post this on RC if that is ok with you. Many people need to see the power of this type of filtration!

[SeaTurtle]

...yes that would be fine sir.

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 01/11

a day after the fertilizer reboot, i tested the water to see what's what...

API readings: ammonia rose to 8. there was also an increase in phosphate while pH had a significant drop...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP01A.jpg

the tank...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP01B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP01C.jpg

screen growth...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP01D.jpg

**i haven't done the dilution test yet.

[chrisfraser05]

This is a good read.

I believe your ammo is well over 8.

Can you do the test again, half the vial with half water from the tank and half with clean SW?

Use the same ammount of chemicals and then just double whatever the reading is, ie if your colour chart still says 8 you know its actually 16+

Chris

[SeaTurtle]

yes i'll probbaly do that. i'll post the readings tomorrow.

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 04/11

API readings: ammonia is off the chart again and pH continues to drop...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04A.jpg

i did the 2 sets of dilution tests. on the left is the 4:1 (fresh sw : old sw) and the other one is 2:2. the 4:1 ratio marked @ 4.0... multiplied by 5 and we have a 20ppm reading (i hope i got this right... mr floyd?). the 2:2 ratio had a reading of above 8.0 so i guess that corroborates with the other one.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04A1.jpg

the tank: water is still green but it somehow cleared up... somehow. i also noticed algae growth on the glass...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04C.jpg

screen growth:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04D.jpg

cleaning...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04E.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04F.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04G.jpg

all cleaned up...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP04H.jpg

...'til next log.

[chrisfraser05]

Brilliant :0

Are you making a table to keep a check on the params easier?

[SeaTurtle]

yep i have it all noted down.

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 06/11

API readings: ammonia was somewhat lighter now than 8.0 so i didn't do the dilution test anymore. but nitrite showed a weird reading... the color of the fluid was the same as PO4 2.0. any thoughts on this? nitrate, phosphate and pH remained the same...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP06D.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP06A.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP06B.jpg

screen growth: nothing much yet... i must have cleaned the screen too much.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP06C.jpg

...'til next log. thanks for viewing.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, I've never seen a nitrite reading like that. Very odd. I wonder if there is another compound in the water that is causing a unexpected reaction. I wonder if that is affecting any of the other tests as well. Hmmm...

[SeaTurtle]

hmm... that could be the only logical conclusion to this. we'll see what happens in the next few days...

[SeaTurtle]

for some reasons, i couldn't get log in to the site so...

here are the delayed updates:

Delayed Update: SEP 10/11

readings: algae growth stopped for a couple of days so ammonia was stuck at 8.0. perhaps the amount of the fertilizer was too high and became too toxic for the algae to grow. but that's just a wild guess... nitrite reading is still weird, nitrate had an increase, phosphate is still at 1 and pH is a bit darker than 7.4...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP10B.jpg

the tank: there's a thick growth of algae on the front glass...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP10C.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP10D.jpg

algae growth: nothing much...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP10A.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 13/11

API readings: none of the readings changed except for a slight drop of NO3...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP13A.jpg

the tank: the algae (brownish) on the tank wall is getting thicker... they're more like grass now than an actual algae. i'm thinking of scraping them off tomorrow.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP13B.jpg

although still green, there is a noticeable clearing of the water...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP13C.jpg

algae growth: i didn't clean the screen last sunday because there was too little growth. but algae (green) started kicking in since yesterday and i can only assume that the toxicity of the fertilizer is starting to drop...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP13D.jpg

[chrisfraser05]

cool :)

[srusso]

Amazing! Nice work, keep the updates coming. I think you should cover the front and sides of the tank, to prevent sun light from entering. Thanks for posting.

[SeaTurtle]

yeah i'll do that. thanks!

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 16/11

API readings: ammonia is still @ 8.0 but i have a feeling that it's more than that so i'll do the dilution test again later...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP16A.jpg

the tank: i scraped off some of the algae on the tank wall...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP16B.jpg

and the water turned green... :lol:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP16C.jpg

screen growth: it's not as thick as before and i noticed that my light isn't as bright as before. perhaps that's one of the reasons why the little growth...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP16D.jpg

question: can ats make the water crystal clear?

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 18/11

delayed update: i cleaned off the algae that grew on the tank glass last saturday and disconnected the ats for the meantime to mechanically filter the floating algae debris...

API readings: this reading was taken a day after the clean up. ammonia was darker than 8.0 but i wasn't able to do the dilution test because i ran out of salt mix. nitrate also showed an increase and marked at around 20 - 40. no changes for the rest...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP18A.jpg

the tank: a day after the clean up...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP18B.jpg

screen growth (a day after the clean up): i've noticed that the growth was darker somehow and less than the before...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP18C.jpg

...'til next log. :wink:

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 20/11

after mechanically filtering the algae debris for 2 days, i turned the ats on again...

API readings (before turning the ats on):
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/SEP20A.jpg

the tank: filtering the water with filter foam...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/SEP20B.jpg

ATS online once again...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/09202011817.jpg

algae growth:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/SEP20C.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 25/11

API readings: ammonia's stuck at 8.0+ probably due to poor algae growth caused by poor lighting. PO4 had a slight increase and NO3 is at around 10-20.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP25A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP25B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP25C.jpg

screen growth: under a week of poor lighting, you can barely notice the growth.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP25D.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Are you sure your test kit is reading ammonia? Could it be something else in the fertilizer throwing the test kit off? That's a lot of ammonia and zero algae growth. Light isn't the issue IMO - you're using T5HO, right?

[SeaTurtle]

hmm... i'm not really sure. but yeah, it seems there's something in the fertilizer that's reacting with the test kit. we'll see what happens next.

oh btw, i'm using 4 8-watt t5 NO's only...

[chrisfraser05]

I'm going with the idea that the algae doesn't actually use ammonia but encourages the bacteria and obviously uses the nitrate quickly.

I think you had alot of BB converting the ammo until you cleaned the glass and you've removed it all.

just a thought obviously!

[Vannpytt]

Algae prefers ammonia as a source for Nitrogen

[chrisfraser05]

that's what I thought I'd read on here but cannot find anything about it :(

certainly nothing scientific!

[SantaMonica]

Spend some time on ReefBase.org and you find things

[rygh]

Also, search the web for things like "algae ammonium uptake"
(Note the ammonium not ammonia)

Odd theoretical side effect:
The algae that do not bother with the nitrate-conversion bio-support, and concentrate only on ammonium directly,
will eventually out compete the other, so you can in theory end up with strains that do not really handle nitrate.
Not sure that would happen in an aquarium, but they do mention it in some papers.

[Floyd R Turbo]

oh btw, i'm using 4 8-watt t5 NO's only...

Oh yeah, your lighting is very low, this could be part of it....

[SeaTurtle]

oh btw, i'm using 4 8-watt t5 NO's only...

Oh yeah, your lighting is very low, this could be part of it....

i changed the bulbs last sunday and i'm noticing growth already. one question though, is ammonium more toxic than ammonia?

[Vannpytt]

ammonia/ammonium changes form relative to the pH of the water (and temp). High pH gives more toxic ammonia (If I didn't change them around), but they are come from "the same" source. (and you always have both)

[SeaTurtle]

i see... do they also affect pH directly? because i noticed when we did the second experiment (50 grams of fertilizer) the pH dropped from 8.4 to 7.4 instantly.

[Vannpytt]

That would be carbonic acid in the fertilizer dropping it.

(which is part of another ongoing discussion on the forums atm)

[PlantationMark]

Jeesh . . . listening to that guy (in the video), you'd think all our problems could be solved by algae.

I guess the closed loop is essential for not introducing strains of algae that would grow on the plastic, thus obscuring light from the flowing water.
Really interesting. Too bad it only has 12k hits. Should be on news casts unless there are negatives that aren't mentioned (as there always are).

[SeaTurtle]

SEP 30/11

API readings: ammonia reading is slightly lighter than 8.0 and PO4's @ 1.0. everything else stayed the same.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP30A.jpg

the tank: there's a brown growth on the base of the tank...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP30B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP30C.jpg

algae growth: after changing the bulbs, growth seems to be better than last week.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/SEP30D.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 02/11

API readings: since algae started kicking in again, ammonia is dropping slowly and so as nitrate. phosphate was at 0...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT02A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT02B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT02C.jpg

algae growth:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT02D.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 05/11

API Readings: ammonia is between 4 & 8 but the color is closer to 8. nitrate is now at 5... everything else stayed the same...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT05A.jpg

i did a nitrite test on our tap water and marked @ 0. there's probably a chemical in the fertilizer that is reacting with the nitrite test kit as suggested...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT05A1.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT05B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT05C.jpg

algae growth: the screen isn't getting the right flow because of clogging issues, hence the growth. but i already have the right screen (c/o sir jake... thank you sir again) and i'll change it probably in the next cleaning...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT05D.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 07/11

API Readings: ammonia's color is now closer to 4 than 8...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT07A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT07B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT07C.jpg

algae growth: still with flow issues
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT07D.jpg

[kerry]

Your growth is getting a lot better. Have you figured out for sure what is making your ammonia show so high?

[SeaTurtle]

most probably because of the 50 grams of fertilizer that i've put about a month ago. it even reached 20 :shock:

[kerry]

Was that an accident?

[SeaTurtle]

no i really put it there. this is actually an experiment how the ats will work against heavily polluted waters.

[kerry]

I figured seeing the tank empty it was an experiment of some sort.

[dtyharry]

Kind of interesting but completely unrelated to real world fishkeeping where a level of 1ppm is considered deadly to fish etc. In a 25 gallon tank that equates to roughly 0.1 gram of ammonia. You say you put 50 grams of fertiliser in. I do not know what size tank you have but in the same 25 gallon tank at 3.5% ammonia fertiliser concentration that would be roughly 15ppm ammonia! Would make life for even algae difficult I would imagine!

[SeaTurtle]

unrelated perhaps... but not entirely. as the title suggested, we're trying to go further as to how far the ats could perform.

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 09/11

API Readings: readings were the same. i'm getting the feeling that system has come to a stall... perhaps due to flow issues and toxicity.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT09A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT09B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT09C.jpg

algae growth: i don't get the growth that i used to have even after changing the bulbs. i can only assume that that's probably due to the toxic byproduct of the fertilizer...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT09D.jpg


OCT 10/11

after 2 weeks of no cleaning:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT11D.jpg

i already discarded this and replaced it with the knitting screen...


OCT 11/11

API Readings: nitrate went up by 5 2 days after changing the screen. i noticed a slight change in the nitrite reading and is now leaning towards the color of 0.0
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT11A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT11B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT11C.jpg

algae growth: the new screen...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT11E.jpg

[kerry]

Maybe a test with pure ammonia would be a good idea to push the limits. I would assume not all the chemicals in the fert would be present in a normal aquarium. Just an idea??!! Maybe start with an amount that would be 8PPM in your tank.

[Floyd R Turbo]

After seeing these results, I think I am going to just use ammonia, and maybe urea, for my test of the multi-band LED fixtures. I wonder too if the fertilizer has other things in it that might throw off the test. Though if using straight ammonia, you might end up with an algal growth of only a certain type, so maybe using some kind of mixture of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate but in purified, measurable forms. This is what I was looking for in the first place for doing my tests, and now that I have the fixtures I will have to re-visit that...

[SeaTurtle]

I would assume not all the chemicals in the fert would be present in a normal aquarium. Just an idea??!! Maybe start with an amount that would be 8PPM in your tank.

you're probably right. actually, this experiment is about the ats's capabilities to treat polluted waters and not just tank water.


After seeing these results, I think I am going to just use ammonia, and maybe urea, for my test of the multi-band LED fixtures. I wonder too if the fertilizer has other things in it that might throw off the test. Though if using straight ammonia, you might end up with an algal growth of only a certain type, so maybe using some kind of mixture of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate but in purified, measurable forms. This is what I was looking for in the first place for doing my tests, and now that I have the fixtures I will have to re-visit that...

i think the fertilizer byproducts are hard to treat. that's probably the reason why the algae is somehow growing slower than usual. btw, can you use pure ammonia to cycle a tank?

[kerry]

btw, can you use pure ammonia to cycle a tank?
I have done that a couple times. The last 10 years or so I have just thrown in a couple large peeled shrimps, I figured that was a more natural cycle and would invoke better bacteria but its all just a guess, I am not even sure if I am right or not. It seems to work for me and I do not risk any live stock. Lately, Since I have discovered the ATS method I don't have to cycle at all and I am very happy with that, I just set up and let it run a day a two as a break in to check for leaks or problems then stock away!!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes but you have to use straight ammonia without surfactants. Some are actually ok to use. A surfactant causes liquid to spread out. All soap is a surfactant, but not all surfactants are soap. Rule of thumb is if you shake a bottle vigorously and it doesn't suds up and stay that way, then it's not a soap surfactant. I just get the one at Ace Hardware because it's super concentrated janitorial strength vs walmart or target wimpy stuff. I cycled a 225 gallon tank and did something like 6 teaspoons a day and that kept ammonia between 2 and 4. Cycled in 3 weeks.

[SeaTurtle]

Lately, Since I have discovered the ATS method I don't have to cycle at all and I am very happy with that, I just set up and let it run a day a two as a break in to check for leaks or problems then stock away!!

i'll do this next time i set up a tank.


Yes but you have to use straight ammonia without surfactants. Some are actually ok to use. A surfactant causes liquid to spread out. All soap is a surfactant, but not all surfactants are soap. Rule of thumb is if you shake a bottle vigorously and it doesn't suds up and stay that way, then it's not a soap surfactant. I just get the one at Ace Hardware because it's super concentrated janitorial strength vs walmart or target wimpy stuff. I cycled a 225 gallon tank and did something like 6 teaspoons a day and that kept ammonia between 2 and 4. Cycled in 3 weeks.

...do they leave something like residue or byproducts in the water?

[Floyd R Turbo]

surfactants will leave a coating of soap on everything. If you use ammonia with surfactants, no bacteria will live in the tank. To get rid of it, you have to tear down the tank and scrub it over, and over, and over, and over, and over. And all decor too. Porous rock would have to be tossed.

[SeaTurtle]

sounds like a mess. i'll take note of that. thanks!

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 17/11

API Readings: readings went wild! ammonia dropped to zero while nitrate and phosphate soared beyond the ceiling! :lol: good thing is, the nitrite showed a normal reading of zero. could this mean that the toxins(?) in the fertilizer is fading and that the bacteria is now building up?
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT17A.jpg

i did a retest and showed the same results...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT17B.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT17C.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT17D.jpg

algae growth: day 6 of the new screen...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT17E.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Why would phos go up? Did you add more fertilizer since the last test?

[SeaTurtle]

no i did not. the last thing i did was change the screen and that's it. i was also wondering why the spike...

[Floyd R Turbo]

Something's not right. Phosphate just doesn't appear all on it's own in that amount, does it? IIRC phosphate almost always comes from the food you feed your fish.

[SeaTurtle]

hmm... i'm not really sure what to make out of it. but i can only assume that the fertilizer chemicals are dropping since the nitrite reading turned to its normal reading again. perhaps the reading that i am getting before is somehow inaccurate?

[SantaMonica]

Phosphate can come from algae that is decaying.

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 19/11

API Readings: readings are still the same...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT19A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT19B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT19C.jpg

Algae growth: the algae was only getting 24 watts of light because one of the t5's got busted again...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT19D.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 22/11

API Readings: still the same...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT22A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT22B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT22C.jpg

Algae growth: a day after cleaning. Still on 24 watts of light...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT22D.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

OCT 29/11

API Readings: i'm guessing that the nitrate, phosphate are much higher than the max reading since it's not showing any change despite the algae growth compared to way back when the ats could easily consume 40ppm of nitrate in just 3 days...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT29A.jpg

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT29B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT29C.jpg

Algae growth: 4 days of 24 watts and 3 days of 32 watts...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT29D.jpg

i decided to change the screen again to it's previous size... the surface was scraped using a hole saw.
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/OCT29E.jpg

[SeaTurtle]

NOV 06/11

API Readings: ammonia and nitrite seem stable. nitrate drop to 80 from 160 last week and pH increased a bit. phosphate however is still darker than 10.0 reading...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06A.jpg

the tank: the brown matter at the bottom of the tank disappeared but there's growth on the front glass...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06C.jpg

algae growth: 8 days of growth under 32 watts...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06D.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06E.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06F.jpg

all cleaned up...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV06G.jpg

[subielover]

Thanks for the update, I have read through the thread and have been very impressed with the ATS's capabilities especially under pretty obscene conditions!

[SeaTurtle]

...been very impressed with the ATS's capabilities especially under pretty obscene conditions!

...that makes the two of us. ;)


NOV 09/11: Dilution test

i did a 1:1 dilution test for nitrate and phosphate and it seems i made an error with the NOV 06/11 reading. nitrate marked at 80 so its 160 and phosphate was still much darker than the 10.0 mark so it's probably above 20...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV09.jpg


NOV 13/11

API Readings: pH was slightly lighter than the 7.8 mark...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13A.jpg

did another dilution test for nitrate and phosphate but this time i made it 1:4...

1:4 test with nitrate marked at 40...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13D.jpg

1:4 test with phosphate marked at 10 still...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13E.jpg
**PO4 above 40?

the tank:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13B.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13C.jpg

algae growth: before cleaning
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13F.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13G.jpg

all cleaned up...
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/SeaTurtleDesign/ATS%20IP/NOV13H.jpg