My new ATS Please Help

[sublime]

BASICS OF MY NEED FOR HELP:

Tank: 90g display with 240lbs of live rock and ~75g of actual system water. 14 fish and lots of coral that is not grown out. I consider that I feed heavily. Phosphates are ~.01 and nitrates are ~5ppm currently. Tank will be 2 years old in February.

I have 2 simple questions that I know have complex answers. Any information that is needed to answer this question thoroughly please let me know and will gladly reply.

#1 is a 9.5" x 10" too large? (Lit with 42w 2700k CFL's on both sides. I feed 3-4 frozen cubes per day, 2 cubes of frozen cyclopeeze per week, sheet algae for tang once a week and spot feed corals with additional food 1-3 times per week.)

#2 Can I run without a skimmer and still have a healthy tank? (I REALLY want to run w/o a skimmer because that was the whole point of the ATS. So, if it is not safe, what can I do to make it safe?)

BACKGROUND AND TANK INFO:

I am catching a LOT of flack about my decision to run my tank without a skimmer. The easiest way to see everything I have done is to use my website where I document everything. This page shows the ATS and has a 4.5 minute video outlining everything about how I set things up.

http://truzul.com/ats

I am lighting on both sides with 42w 2700k CFL's. I built this thing over the past 6 months because I was only able to work on it here and there. I notice the sizing recommendations have changed dramatically. I have a 550 gallon per hour pump hooked to the ATS but am only running about 400 gallons per hour through it right now. I will ramp it up (or down) as needed.

Right now I have a 90 gallon tank with 240lbs of live rock and about 75 gallons of total water volume. My phosphates are barely readable and my nitrates are ~5ppm. I hate my skimmer and do not want to run it. It is a HOB Octopus BH800s. It is loud and stinky and the entire reason I built this ATS was to get rid of the skimmer. I do run carbon 24/7 and change it out every month or so. I also do 25-40% water changes every two weeks without fail. (I have been known to let it go to three weeks every once in a while but I then do a 40% water change.) I have 14 fish in the tank and it is fairly well stocked with coral except it is not grown out. I also have a RBTA (quadricolor) in there. On my site you can see a lot more pics of the tank and stats, however, I do have SPS corals. Nothing that is super hard to keep in my opinion. If any more information is needed please ask or look on my site. (It is probably there.)

Regards,
Brandon

[sublime]

Here is a basic image. For more details please visit my take website: http://truzul.com/ats

One of my main concerns is that someone said I should worry about 'algae exudes' making my tank crash and that SPS will brown out and/or die.

Another concern is they say if the pump fails while I am away that my tank will crash.

http://truzul.com/images/ats/full.sump.area.shot.jpg

[MorganAtlanta]

"One of my main concerns is that someone said I should worry about 'algae exudes' making my tank crash and that SPS will brown out and/or die."
There's another thread on browning, but that's still unresolved. Some people have great colors without running GAC, others may run GAC to lower DOCs.

"Another concern is they say if the pump fails while I am away that my tank will crash."
That's no different than if your main pump fails or your skimmer pump fails.

The first thing I see in your pics is that you don't have reflectors on the lights. You are only capturing 20% or so of the light output with your screen, so you are wasting a lot of energy, and you may not have enough light going to the screen for good growth. Try tinfoil or a hacked up soda can as a reflector if nothing else.

[kotlec]

If pump will go south you will have problems aither way I thing. Anyway if your ATS will dry out, not try just to switch pump back on and wait for miracle. You need to clean dead algae away before, or make new screen.


Another concern is they say if the pump fails while I am away that my tank will crash.

The same with skimer . No ?

[sublime]

"One of my main concerns is that someone said I should worry about 'algae exudes' making my tank crash and that SPS will brown out and/or die."
There's another thread on browning, but that's still unresolved. Some people have great colors without running GAC, others may run GAC to lower DOCs.

"Another concern is they say if the pump fails while I am away that my tank will crash."
That's no different than if your main pump fails or your skimmer pump fails.

The first thing I see in your pics is that you don't have reflectors on the lights. You are only capturing 20% or so of the light output with your screen, so you are wasting a lot of energy, and you may not have enough light going to the screen for good growth. Try tinfoil or a hacked up soda can as a reflector if nothing else.

So, run activated carbon and I can solve the issue of "algae exudes" ? Also, yes, I have not installed my reflectors yet. I have some white ABS I am going to use as reflectors and I may possibly add some tin foil to that.

I am most concerned with the fact that people say my SPS corals will not do well and within a year may die off if I do not run a skimmer.

[SantaMonica]

Most important is you are losing most of your light (and filtering) out the side and back. That is why your chaeto is not dead yet. Get good reflectors, pull the skimmer and GFO, stop the waterchanges, and you will be good to go. Nutrients should stay low, scrubber growth should quadruple, and coral growth should increase.

Yes algae "exudes"... vitamin C, amino acids, carbohydrates. The things corals need to grow, and the same things reefers buy and dose.

Your feeding will be limited by the liquid; it delivers more nutrients to the water more quickly, so a small increase in liquid feeding can overpower a scrubber quickly.

[dtyharry]

Most important is you are losing most of your light (and filtering) out the side and back. That is why your chaeto is not dead yet. Get good reflectors, pull the skimmer and GFO, stop the waterchanges, and you will be good to go. Nutrients should stay low, scrubber growth should quadruple, and coral growth should increase.

Why stop the water changes, surely that can do harm?

Why remove the carbon or as Ace25 said a better alternative such as purigen. It does no harm and keeps currently for hobbyists unmeasurable DOC at natural levels which is what corals have evolved to live in.


Tank: 90g display with 240lbs of live rock and ~75g of actual system water. 14 fish and lots of coral that is not grown out. I consider that I feed heavily. Phosphates are ~.01 and nitrates are ~5ppm currently. Tank will be 2 years old in February.

Why did you decide to use so much live rock, does it not create dead spots where detritus will build up?

[SantaMonica]

unmeasurable DOC at natural levels which is what corals have evolved to live in.

Good try.

Sublime... dirty harry has forgotten what he's read many times here... the oceans have very high doc levels, so you are fine.

[sublime]

Most important is you are losing most of your light (and filtering) out the side and back. That is why your chaeto is not dead yet. Get good reflectors, pull the skimmer and GFO, stop the waterchanges, and you will be good to go. Nutrients should stay low, scrubber growth should quadruple, and coral growth should increase.

Yes algae "exudes"... vitamin C, amino acids, carbohydrates. The things corals need to grow, and the same things reefers buy and dose.

Your feeding will be limited by the liquid; it delivers more nutrients to the water more quickly, so a small increase in liquid feeding can overpower a scrubber quickly.

First, thank you very much for the reply. Second, I have already installed some kick butt reflectors and put tin foil completely around the tank on the outside to keep light trapped in the sump for two reasons. One, to keep as much light on the screen as possible and two, because too much light was leaking into the living room.

#ONE
Why stop the water changes? That scares me. I feel that consistent water changes are key to the success I have seen with my system. I have excellent growth and colors. Also, water changes helps to put all levels of trace elements back into equilibrium. I am happy with everything you have said except for stopping the water changes. I would not have a problem lowering the percentage though. Perhaps to 15 or 20 gallons but then I would make SURE to do that every 2 weeks.

#TWO
Can you explain to me why other people state that over time without a skimmer, my SPS will end up dying off and that the tank will end up yellow and badly discolored. What is your reason for taking out the carbon? I need the carbon to help battle the chemical warfare that my softies vs lps vs sps vs anemonies are waging.

#THREE
Last question. The usable area is 9" x 10" -- This is oversized compared to your new dimensions. Is that okay? I do feed A LOT.

Thank you very much for the replies from all so far.

Brandon

[sublime]

Why did you decide to use so much live rock, does it not create dead spots where detritus will build up?

I wanted a back wall look. And NO I have zero dead spots and that was very hard to achieve :) -- I have about 7000 gallons per hour of pump drive in that tank and there isn't a quite spot in the tank. There are still a few spots that are slower than others, which is perfect. I took a long time and two complete re-aquascapes to reach this point, however, things are looking VERY good now days and there is a LARGE volume flow throughout the tank with MANY highly erratic flow currents.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate any help I can get on this topic.

[dtyharry]

unmeasurable DOC at natural levels which is what corals have evolved to live in.

Good try.

Sublime... dirty harry has forgotten what he's read many times here... the oceans have very high doc levels, so you are fine.

Come on santa you know what I meant! I did not mean that doc was at an unmeasurable level, I said that hobbyists are unable to measure the level of doc in their system because the device used to measure it costs many thousands of gold coins. In the absence of knowing what your levels are apart from surface froth, slime etc which would point to it being a lot, what is the harm in using something like carbon or purigen, carbon was shown in those advanced aquarist studies to keep the doc levels roughly in line with what a coral would experience on a natural reef?
Carbon, purigen etc has no effect on the working of the scrubber so for me it seems like they would work together hand in hand and provide peace of mind and might even bring an end to all these doc discussions!!

[SantaMonica]

1. If you are dosing cal, alk, mag, and str, then everything else you need is in the food you feed. So, waterchanges are just removing food. And costing money. And adding metals.

2. They don't don't what does what. And/or, they are involved in the mfg or selling of skimmers. Bacteria will eat the "warfare", unless you have lots of softies.

3. How much is a lot.

[sublime]

1. If you are dosing cal, alk, mag, and str, then everything else you need is in the food you feed. So, waterchanges are just removing food. And costing money. And adding metals.

2. They don't don't what does what. And/or, they are involved in the mfg or selling of skimmers. Bacteria will eat the "warfare", unless you have lots of softies.

3. How much is a lot.


#2, So, I don't have to worry about my SPS dying without a skimmer as many other suggest out of fear and ignorance? So, the bottom line... I am completely safe removing my skimmer completely from the system TODAY? -- (Also, note that the ATS has only been setup as of Sunday.) What should I watch for to know if I need to install the skimmer again?

#3, I feed 3-4 cubes of frozen food daily. I feed 1 cube of frozen cyclopeeze 2 times per week. I spot feed the coral with additional food between one and three times per week. Mostly, I just feed the corals once per week. I also use selco and seachem fuel and some concentrated home cultured phytoplankton (.75ml 1-2 times per week and as little as once a month). Other than that, I try to feed 1/2 sheet of nori at least once a week possibly twice per week.

I would feed more if I could do it safely. Is this screen size oversized? Also, can I run it in "high wattage" mode only 9 hours per day given my current setup or would I need to double the bulbs up? (If so, I will just run it 18 hours because it will cost the same.)

Brandon

[kerry]

I have kicked my skimmer habit a long time ago and have never looked back!!!!! I do not think you screen is out of line at all. My 40G has a 9x6 ish or so and it does fine.

[sublime]

bump.

Can anyone wrap this up for me?

[Ace25]

This reply just going off your first and second post and your questions above..

Short answer: Yes, in my opinion you can remove your skimmer without any worry at all.

Long answer: This is because of your maintenance routine and your use of carbon. Carbon does the same thing as a skimmer and does it better in regards to taking out the bad things in the water. This biggest argument the skimmer side uses is "skimmers are a one time cost but carbon you have to always keep buying and will eventually cost more than the skimmer". While true, it would take many years to get to that point, in which time your skimmer would probably need some parts, or you would want to upgrade anyway, and the entire time the skimmer is doing 50% less than carbon and using power to do it. When using 42w CFLs I think doing the 9hrs per day may be better. I just switched mine over to that yesterday because I am not happy with the 18 hour results.

Question, do you have enough flow for your tank? 240lbs in a 90G tank is a lot, and needs some serious flow to keep clean.

[SantaMonica]

You are feeding a good bit, for a new screen. When you are getting some good thick green harvests, you can remove all other filters.

If you cut back your feeding to a cube a day, and stopped the liquid feeding, you could remove everything today. Then after you get thick green, you can up the feeding again. The liquid is what really puts nutrients into the water.

There is no indication for re-installing the skimmer. It does not remove any nutrients at all, so it would not help. But it would remove more food, if you want to buy more food.

No sps will die; they will grow faster.

There is no oversize, or undersize. There is only the correct size, for how much you feed. Use the guideline.


Carbon does the same thing as a skimmer and does it better in regards to taking out the bad things in the water.

GAC removes DOC's... Vitamins, Amino Acids, Carbohydrates, etc. Skimmers do not remove these very well. After you remove them, you'll need to buy and dose more Selcon in order to put them back in.

[sublime]

This reply just going off your first and second post and your questions above..

Short answer: Yes, in my opinion you can remove your skimmer without any worry at all.

Long answer: This is because of your maintenance routine and your use of carbon. Carbon does the same thing as a skimmer and does it better in regards to taking out the bad things in the water. This biggest argument the skimmer side uses is "skimmers are a one time cost but carbon you have to always keep buying and will eventually cost more than the skimmer". While true, it would take many years to get to that point, in which time your skimmer would probably need some parts, or you would want to upgrade anyway, and the entire time the skimmer is doing 50% less than carbon and using power to do it. When using 42w CFLs I think doing the 9hrs per day may be better. I just switched mine over to that yesterday because I am not happy with the 18 hour results.

Question, do you have enough flow for your tank? 240lbs in a 90G tank is a lot, and needs some serious flow to keep clean.


Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, I have ~7000gph of flow in the tank with all the powerheads, closed loop circulation pump spray bar and sump. I have water moving behind the rocks, next to the rocks over the rocks and in front of the rocks. Everything is doing great and I just tested my nitrates again today, undetectable using an API kit. I have a Salifert kit I am going to test with tomorrow.

Again, thanks for the answers, and lucky for me, they were the ones I wanted to hear! :)

[sublime]

You are feeding a good bit, for a new screen. When you are getting some good thick green harvests, you can remove all other filters.

If you cut back your feeding to a cube a day, and stopped the liquid feeding, you could remove everything today. Then after you get thick green, you can up the feeding again. The liquid is what really puts nutrients into the water.

There is no indication for re-installing the skimmer. It does not remove any nutrients at all, so it would not help. But it would remove more food, if you want to buy more food.

No sps will die; they will grow faster.

There is no oversize, or undersize. There is only the correct size, for how much you feed. Use the guideline.


Carbon does the same thing as a skimmer and does it better in regards to taking out the bad things in the water.

GAC removes DOC's... Vitamins, Amino Acids, Carbohydrates, etc. Skimmers do not remove these very well. After you remove them, you'll need to buy and dose more Selcon in order to put them back in.


Wonderful :) -- Thanks for the reply and I will put this to rest. I am not worried about the feeding right now because I can do water changes and most of the stuff in the tank has done fine with nitrates hanging around 15ppm and even up to 20ppm. However, I do not want that to happen again of course, my point is that the scrubber will catch up fast enough for me to not worry about things. However, I will cut back on a few things and not use any liquids for a while.

I appreciate the information and I am excited and anxious to step into the world of ATS!