No water changes.. pls help.

[RkyRickstr]

Guys over the past three days ive read so many threads here.. and i see so many people skipping water changes all together..

I wanna be there... But im scared.. lol.. seven years doing waterchanges.. u can immagine..

I understand that the food we feed and the scrubber will provide thw trace ellements.. but how do i make sure.. besides kalk (already dose) what other stuff you guys feed and in what ammounts?

I have a 120 mixed tank.. lps sps zoos plates favias.. you name it.

Is there a trace ellements mix that cqn take care of these?...

Thank you so much for your support in these uncertain times.. lol

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[kerry]

I had to take that big leap to! It was hard to digest but upon taking my water tests it all was good, and a week later still good, then a week later even better, then another week and my nutrients were zero-ish! You just need to get some test kits so you can see what you need to dose. Some post on here had a comment by SM about using some kind of pickling powder for dosing. Maybe one of the veterans could make a list of supplies and dosing amounts of alternate home / kitchen supplies that can be used at a better cost. Such as for my FW Africans pH adjustment, I use baking soda, Epsom salt, and instant ocean mix to boost the pH to 8.2ish.

[RkyRickstr]

Thanks kerry

I test my ca alk phosphate mag and nitrate.. readings:

Ca 480
Alk 8.5
Phos undetectable
Nitrate undetectable

Those readings are great.. i just need to make sure corals get what they need.. should i test for stonium or something else?

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[kerry]

I know they add strontium to, I need to get that test as well. I dose it just as the bottle says but I have no way to measure it yet.

[Aeros]

I haven't done a WC in almost a year. I have an almost all SPS tank 120g with 20g sump.

I have a pH monitor, and before my recent calcium reactor upgrade i dosed bulk reef supply Calcium, magnesium, and carbonate.

The pH probe is a life saver when you dose sodium carbonate (soda ash, washing soda) as your pH sky rockets. Also, you can also see the daily swing. Fun to see it go up with the window open, and down when you use the oven.

Bulkreefsupply.com has a calculator for kalkwaser (calcium hydroxide). Measure your weekly usage. Then calculate what you need to hit your target. Theres your weekly dosage.

As for "trace elements". Theres a fantastic article i can't reference at the moment in advanced aquariust that compares natural sea water levels to those in reef tanks for heavy metals, or "trace elements" as marketers want you to think. To summerize: reef tanks had a lot of heavy metals compared to NSW. And is suspect in old tank syndrome, as well as acclimation death of fish.

"It has the eletrolytes plants crave!"

Just as you don't down a bottle of mercury for breakfast, you shouldnt add any "trace" or "essential" elements. Everything needed is in the food.

Dont use calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate for more than minor adjustments or over a long time. As the calcium and magnesium get used up you are left with free chloride ions and sulfate. Over time these build up to toxic levels. Also, increasing your salinity (specific gravity).

Calcium hydroxide is great stuff. Keeps your pH up and doesnt raise salinity while maintaing your carbonate levels. Too much work for me though.

Also, you will have to run carbon at least once a month. I do. Too much coral food from the scrubber makes my corals look like poop and my water look yellow.

Best is the look on other reefers face when you tell them its been a year without a single water change and you have impossible to keep acros growing like weed (lol). Then let them ask what kind of skimmer you use. Hah! Love it.

[RkyRickstr]

Lol.. already there.. no skimmer??? Are you crazy???.. i look at the tank for a few seconds and say does it look like im crazy?.. lol... Love it.

Ok that all makes sence.. my only other question is... When i feed my piglike fish dont let a single pellet go to waiste... They snatch them all... How does coral benefit from that?.. unless you are talking about feeding food specificaly for corals.. in that case i have some reseqrch to do cus. Only feed cyclopheze.

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[SantaMonica]

If yellowing is occuring, it means the roots are dying.

[RkyRickstr]

Sm wat u talking bout?.. lol.. i did more reading today and found out d scrubber feeds corals.. so .... Any of u guys feed aditional coral food?

[kerry]

Many of us blend up our own homemade mix. I feed my tanks a lot more now since I am scrubbing, I do not rely on the scrubber to feed mine 100%.

[RkyRickstr]

Home made sounds good.. what do u put in it?

[kerry]

I use my mix for my FW and SW fish as well so I use shrimp, canned peas and canned carrots, then gelatin from the cheese cake/jello section at your store. I use a 1/2 pound of shrimp and a can each of peas and carrots. I blend the shrimp into a fine pulp and wait for the peas and carrots to heat up. Once its hot I blend the peas and carrots into the mix and add two pouches of gelatin mix right at the very end. Once the gelatin is mixed I pour it into flat seal-able containers at about 1/2"-3/4" think layer, about 3 containers most time. Now I put them in the fridge for a couple hours to setup the gelatin and then I put the extra containers I am not using in the freezer. The freezer makes the gelatin release so a quick heating in the microwave after thawing then a return to the fridge to set the gelatin again. Many people use some sodium alginate instead of gelatin, that seems to be popular as well. Here is a thread on home made food. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153&hilit=blend (http://algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153&hilit=blend)

[SantaMonica]

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1153)
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1152 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1152)

[RkyRickstr]

thanks guys!.. I wonder if I can do this using an aqualifter pump???... that way I can use the reefkeeper as a doser.. you guys think it will clog the pump?

[SantaMonica]

You'll just need to thin it out more, since 1.0 ml doses are quite large.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Dont use calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate for more than minor adjustments or over a long time. As the calcium and magnesium get used up you are left with free chloride ions and sulfate. Over time these build up to toxic levels. Also, increasing your salinity (specific gravity).

Aeros, I had not heard this before. I have been using BRS 2-part (I don't know why they don't call it 3 part) solutions for the past year to keep Alk up (no prob there) but have also been using Cal and Mag, which are comprised of exactly what you list above. I don't dose much Mag, for some reason mine don't drop hardly at all, but I probably add about 10mL of Calcium per week or so.

I understand the mechanism you are describing, but i was not aware that the buildup of free ions did anything but raise your salinity, in which case I would just remove some water and add RO/DI.

Can you further explain this issue for me?

[Aeros]

Dont use calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate for more than minor adjustments or over a long time. As the calcium and magnesium get used up you are left with free chloride ions and sulfate. Over time these build up to toxic levels. Also, increasing your salinity (specific gravity).

Aeros, I had not heard this before. I have been using BRS 2-part (I don't know why they don't call it 3 part) solutions for the past year to keep Alk up (no prob there) but have also been using Cal and Mag, which are comprised of exactly what you list above. I don't dose much Mag, for some reason mine don't drop hardly at all, but I probably add about 10mL of Calcium per week or so.

I understand the mechanism you are describing, but i was not aware that the buildup of free ions did anything but raise your salinity, in which case I would just remove some water and add RO/DI.

Can you further explain this issue for me?

I had a long scientific reply all typed out and it didn't send... So I'll summarize.

1: You cannot correct ionic imbalances replacing tank water with RO/DI. It must be correctly balanced (or close) mixed salt water.

2: Specific Gravity is just how much of a volume of water is filled up and is not an indication of imbalance. Not being able to maintain cal/carbonate/magnesium levels is though.

3: Ions are measured as a part of total ions in solution by mass (Read:Molar Mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_mass)) ,this is independent of total volume of solution (Read:Molar Concentration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_concentration). Five gallons or five hundred only changes the about of time it takes to skew ratios.

4: If we continue to add an ion that is not used that will skew the ratio found in NSW. This will artificially suppress the amount of usable ions.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I still don't get it. There have been people maintaining various types of systems and not doing PWCs over the years. There is one tank at our LFS that went 10 years without a water change because the LR did all the denitrification and their filtration system was well maintained. There are other cases of tanks in all kinds of different scenarios that have achieved long term balance, yet I've never read of this being an issue. So I'm going to need a better explanation. I'm trying to fully understand this. It's the engineer in me. Sorry your long explanation didn't go through...probably would have been good to read

[new2scrub]

yes , more on this please! does sm have ant thoughts on this?

[Aeros]

Ok. Wrote that last bit at work in a hurry.

We've all heard the marketing term "ionically balenced". Despite being on a product label it has an actual meaning in reef aquaria.

In natural sea water there is a fairly consistant ratio between all major constituents. Exceptions by river deltas, glaciers, where runoff, and human input alter the ratios.

Evaporation does not change ratios of ions. Even down to zero water (dry salt) the ratio of chloride to sodium to cal etc. remains the same.

Staying with the dry salt analogy. In a bucket of salt: If you took out some calcium, and some magnesium, leaving the rest behind, and needed to replace them, but by only using a chloride bound ion of each. You would have a net increase of chloride in your salt bucket.

Repeted enough times your bucket of salt would eventually fill to the top and there would be no room left for adding anything. And the bucket would be void or very low on anything you took out while full of what you did not. And fairly useless as a salt mix, if not outright toxic to aquaria.

Removing 50% of the salt from the bucket to continue the process only worsens the problem.

Of course, how soon you "get to the top of the bucket" depends on usage and dosing.

The LFS you mention likely wasn't using a chloride bound Calcium/Magnesium additive. Or there usage of each was so minute to never need much correction.

The whole problem is moot if chloride/sulfate bound additives are used sparingly. Instead, Calcium Hydroxide, and Dolomite can be used. Neither leave excess ions behind when consumed. I use a calcium reactor mixed ~10:1 dead coral skele and dolomite. Of course also it isn't an issue at all if WCs are done.

I don't ever plan on any non emergency WCs so this is important to me. There are also a lot of scrubber who don't either. This should be made known to the scrubber community.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok, so if you add BRS Calcium Chloride, and the calcium gets used, you end up with excess chloride. But then wouldn't this be reflected by your salinity increasing? Then if you simply remove some water and add RO/DI to bring the salinity into balance, what is then still out of balance?

[kotlec]

Ok, so if you add BRS Calcium Chloride, and the calcium gets used, you end up with excess chloride. But then wouldn't this be reflected by your salinity increasing? Then if you simply remove some water and add RO/DI to bring the salinity into balance, what is then still out of balance?

You cant make tank water of pure chloride + RO/DI ? Can you ?

[Aeros]

Ok, so if you add BRS Calcium Chloride, and the calcium gets used, you end up with excess chloride. But then wouldn't this be reflected by your salinity increasing? Then if you simply remove some water and add RO/DI to bring the salinity into balance, what is then still out of balance?

Specific gravity is the "top of the bucket"...35 g/l (1.025 SG) is a full bucket.

Your total gallons is how big your "bucket" is.

Your ionic balance is the ratio of Sodium:Chloride:Magnesium:Calcium...etc.. in NSW.

Corals use Calcium, Magnesium, Strontium, and other "trace metals", but not Chloride, Sulfate, Sodium, or Borate.

If you replace the used Calcium or Magnesium ions with a bonded Chloride ion (as in BRS 3 part) you will overfill "the bucket" and your SG will go beyond 1.025 because you are adding more "salt" and it is not being consumed.

For every Calcium/Magnesium ion you replace you add one Chloride ion.

In this case, the number of Chloride ions will be out of ratio to NSW. Because you added a whole bunch of Chloride with that Calcium and Magnesium.

The Chloride now takes the place of the Cal/Mag when you test your SG, but your Cal/Mag test low. You are running out of room at 1.025 SG for Cal/Mag. In order to maintain your Cal/Mag your SG has to go beyond 1.025.

If you remove salt from the "bucket" via a RO/DI PWC you remove a percentage of everything. Not just Chloride. This does not correct the skewed ratio. The amount of chloride in the mix is still above what NSW is. Only now you have more room to further skew the ratio before you hit your max SG.

If you could repeat this practice you would eventually end up with a pure chloride solution at 1.025 SG.

This is regarding Chloride only, and not the myriad of other "additives" that help throw things off.

I hope that explains it.

[SantaMonica]

What about when you also add baking soda... doesn't the sodium combine with the extra chloride to add extra salinity?

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is making more sense now, I'm following the logic.

So this is what I do in my system, you tell me if there is an issue here:

I add BRS Alk Soda Ash several times a day (this is Sodium Carbonate) - I add about 2 mL of this per day (tank goes through it FAST) <<<--OOPS I meant 2 Fluid Ounces or 60ml/day

I add BRS Cal (Calcium Chloride) at roughly the same rate, just not every day.

Put those 2 together and I am adding both sodium and chloride, am I not? People use dosing systems and use this stuff all the time in this fashion, if this was an issue I think it would be more widespread.

I keep levels of Alk around 8-9 and Cal around 420, and I rarely have to adjust Mag.

"Salinity Creep" has been mentioned on here but I don't think anyone has raised this issue, in fact I've never heard of this anywhere.

[Aeros]

That is making more sense now, I'm following the logic.

So this is what I do in my system, you tell me if there is an issue here:

I add BRS Alk Soda Ash several times a day (this is Sodium Carbonate) - I add about 2 mL of this per day (tank goes through it FAST)

I add BRS Cal (Calcium Chloride) at roughly the same rate, just not every day.

Put those 2 together and I am adding both sodium and chloride, am I not? People use dosing systems and use this stuff all the time in this fashion, if this was an issue I think it would be more widespread.

I keep levels of Alk around 8-9 and Cal around 420, and I rarely have to adjust Mag.

"Salinity Creep" has been mentioned on here but I don't think anyone has raised this issue, in fact I've never heard of this anywhere.

I only used Chloride as my example. But I listed, Sodium, and Sulfate as two other major additions that can throw off ratios.

My assumption as to why this isn't an issue raised around here is:

People are still doing water changes, and even a small PWC compared to the amount being dosed is significantly more. This brings ratios close to NSW again.

The amount of Chloride/Sodium/Sulfate they are dosing is small, due to light load of calcifying stock in their tanks.

They are using Kalkwasser or other methods that do not add extra ions.

They are misdiagnosing their low Cal/Mag/dKH.

I was dosing over 100 ml of BRS Cal a day and could not keep up with demand (doubtful), or my Cal was precipitating out. I don't know, but I added 30 gallons of new salt water (linked a new tank) and a Calcium reactor. Cal/Alk now sit at 420/10 all the time.


What about when you also add baking soda... doesn't the sodium combine with the extra chloride to add extra salinity?

Some will bond if they get close enough, but only a small amount. It's the same reason why Calcium reactor effluent doesn't form calcite when it hits the higher pH of the tank water. Even if all of the Chloride bonded to Sodium and you did a fresh water reset to 1.025 the ion ratio count would be off by whatever margin it was off when you did the fresh WC. On account of other ions being precipitated, used, removed with a FWC.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I corrected my above example. What I am currently doing is dosing roughly 2 fluid ounces per day of BRS Alk and Cal.

Looking at this then, I am replenishing the Alk and Cal in a form that then provides both Sodium and Chloride ions in proportion, am I not? Thus the net effect would be an increase in salinity over time, but the sodium and chloride ions would still be in balance. So removing a few gallons from a 100 gallon system and replacing that with RO/DI would essentially dilute everything in the tank by a percentage, and the continued dosing would raise it up again, and the cycle would repeat.

So in that example, over a very long term, I could end up with a solution containing the correct balance of Sodium and Chloride, and the levels of Cal and Alk would be maintained, but pretty much everything else would be out of balance. Then if Mag was occasionally adjusted, this would introduce additional free chloride and skew the ratio.

So what are the other things that would be out of balance in the above scenario, and how would this affect the life in the aquarium?

You mention misdiagnosing cal/alk/mag, are you speaking of misinterpreting tests, or are you saying that an artificially skewed ionic ratio can cause erroneous test readings?

This seems like a very good argument for using Kalkwasser or other methods. It also may be a good argument for the 10% monthly PWC argument. Thank you for your continued explanation of this. This is of great benefit to the scrubber community and I wish to fully understand this. I think the purists find issues like this to scoff at us and I wish to overcome this.

[Aeros]

Looking at this then, I am replenishing the Alk and Cal in a form that then provides both Sodium and Chloride ions in proportion, am I not? Thus the net effect would be an increase in salinity over time, but the sodium and chloride ions would still be in balance. So removing a few gallons from a 100 gallon system and replacing that with RO/DI would essentially dilute everything in the tank by a percentage, and the continued dosing would raise it up again, and the cycle would repeat.


The only problem with with the above is that as your SG increases you push out of solution other ions so that more of the solution is taken up by Sodium/Chloride. If you could continued to does BRS 2 part and reset your SG to 1.025 you would end up with a pure solution of Sodium/Chloride eventually. There wouldn't be any room for the Ca/Alk or other ions. They would precipitate out faster than you could add them. Doing a fresh WC only makes the problem worse, while masking the issue.

See: Composition of Sea Water by mass (http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm) . All of the other constituents of the mixture will get squeezed out, and won't be able to be added back in untill the ratio of Chloride/Sodium are reduced.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Good to know. So basically, the answer for long-term success here is:

1) Don't rely on various alk/cal supplements for maintaining appropriate levels of Cal/Alk/Mag unless you are doing so in conjunction with regular PWCs

2) If not relying on regular PWCs, use Kalkwasser or another form of supplementation that does not bind the additive to free chloride/sodium

3) if levels are depleted faster than what can be supplemented with Kalk in top-off water, and BRS or the like is necessary, incorporate PWCs into the regimen.

As to #2, forgive me for a newbie question but I'm still learning many things along the way here, but what are the various methods of maintaining Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium that do not result in a skewed ionic ratio that may be used in conjunction with a minimalist PWC routine?

As to #3, are there products that can be dosed in the same manner (with a dosing pump) that do not skew the ratio? This may be the same as the question above I guess...

[RkyRickstr]

Wow i had to read it six times but this acually makes sence.. i wonder what can i do if kalk and waterchanges then cant keep up?

[Aeros]

Good to know. So basically, the answer for long-term success here is:

1) Don't rely on various alk/cal supplements for maintaining appropriate levels of Cal/Alk/Mag unless you are doing so in conjunction with regular PWCs

You got it. Small adjustments here and there won't be much different than using different brands of salt mix, or even different batches of the same brand as far as ion ratios are concerned.


2) If not relying on regular PWCs, use Kalkwasser or another form of supplementation that does not bind the additive to free chloride/sodium

3) if levels are depleted faster than what can be supplemented with Kalk in top-off water, and BRS or the like is necessary, incorporate PWCs into the regimen.

As to #2, forgive me for a newbie question but I'm still learning many things along the way here, but what are the various methods of maintaining Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium that do not result in a skewed ionic ratio that may be used in conjunction with a minimalist PWC routine?

As to #3, are there products that can be dosed in the same manner (with a dosing pump) that do not skew the ratio? This may be the same as the question above I guess...

Only Calcium Hydroxide (Kalkwasser), or dissolved Calcium Carbonate (Calcium reactor, or Kents "Liquid Calcium Reactor"). The cost of a decent dosing pump is about equal to a DIY Calcium reactor, and is by far the best cost over time ratio. If you are set on using a doser, the Kents Liquid Calcium Reactor (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=7362&cmpid=03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525406215) can be found cheaply, but is pricey in my opinion. Kalkwasser is great, if you love constant adjustments and tinkering.

There are some more difficult to acquire calcium additives, but there not worth the effort; search Advanced Aquariest.

[Floyd R Turbo]

So that covers calcium dosing. What about alkalinity?

As I understand it, Kalk covers both, and if your evap rate is enough and constant, you can just mix it in your top-off water.

[Aeros]

All the options I listed cover Calcium and Carbonate in ratios used by our critters. Kalk can be used in top off, or dripped, or dosed, depending on it's concentration.

[Floyd R Turbo]

The cost of a decent dosing pump is about equal to a DIY Calcium reactor, and is by far the best cost over time ratio.

Wait...are you saying the dosing pump or DIY reactor is best?

All in all...I think I'm going to be doing a PWC right quick. This might explain a few issues my system has been having. They're not huge, but after well over a year of using BRS 3-part, and the last year of no PWCs...

[Ace25]

I have always used Kalkwasser as my primary means of dosing, usually 1/2 strength in a 5G bucket of top off water. 5G lasts about 3-4 days on my tank. Been doing that for over a decade myself and works great for smaller tanks with a sizable consumption load. I never had anything get outside acceptable parameters but when one gets slightly off compared to the other I use BRS 2 part to make minor adjustments. Never felt the need for a CA or Kalk reactor due to my size tanks, but if I had a larger tank a CA reactor would be one of the must haves for me. I do think I will need to start checking Mg more often now since I am trying to do the "no water change" thing myself.. but so far, not really sold on no water changes, but I am still giving it a go. Luckly I have enough Mag suppliments to last me another 10 years from which I have collected over the years of going to reef shows and getting free stuff. I always seem to come home with some type of Mag suppliment that I have never had a use for since water changes always kept my Mag at acceptable levels.

Personally, I think B-Ionic is still the best 2 or 3 part out there, it is more than just the basics, it has the trace elements in it as well. Once I run out of BRS 2 part I will be going back to B-Ionic. It does cost more but I think it may be worth it in the end due to the extras it contains.

[Aeros]

The cost of a decent dosing pump is about equal to a DIY Calcium reactor, and is by far the best cost over time ratio.

Wait...are you saying the dosing pump or DIY reactor is best?

All in all...I think I'm going to be doing a PWC right quick. This might explain a few issues my system has been having. They're not huge, but after well over a year of using BRS 3-part, and the last year of no PWCs...

I meant a DIY Calcium reactor is the cheapest long term. Then there's the set it and forget it bonus too.


Personally, I think B-Ionic is still the best 2 or 3 part out there, it is more than just the basics, it has the trace elements in it as well. Once I run out of BRS 2 part I will be going back to B-Ionic. It does cost more but I think it may be worth it in the end due to the extras it contains.

I didn't mention B-Ionic because of cost. It's almost theft in my book. For a small system you can dose all-in-one Kents liquid cal reactor. The price to performance ratio blows B-Ionic out of the water. And it doesn't get more "extra" then what's in disolved coral skeleton.

For a magnesium suppliment, I use dolomite mixed in a ~10:1 ratio with coral skeleton in my reactor. It's almost pure magnesium. It's what is comonly used as landscape decor rock.

My reccomendation if your'e going without WCs is to get off the BRS stuff ASAP and find a cheaper and more stable method. So pretty much DIY ca reactor, or kalk stir if you have a big system. For small systems find the cheapest doseable, my vote is Kents stuff. Otherwise, a monthy PWC is a good idea.

[Ace25]

I didn't mention B-Ionic because of cost. It's almost theft in my book. For a small system you can dose all-in-one Kents liquid cal reactor. The price to performance ratio blows B-Ionic out of the water. And it doesn't get more "extra" then what's in disolved coral skeleton.
How do you figure the Kent Liquid CA reactor stuff is the cheapest? $34.99 for a 64oz container vs $11.99 for a 4.5 POUND jar of BRS Kalkwasser (that will last YEARS! Believe me, I bought one, 5 years later still have 1/2 the jar). Add in a little bottle of Trace Elements and Magnesium, and you have a home made Kent product for a fraction of the cost. Heck, even B-Ionic is cheaper than Kent at Marinedepot. 2 1Gallon jugs of B-Ionic is $35.49, 50cents more and 4x as much product. Or to compare Apples to Apples, $20.99 for 64oz of B-Ionic vs $34.99 for the same amount of Kent.

These are products that we know what it contains, it isn't some mystery/proprietary information where 1 company can make one better than another. They are minerals, either they are in the bottle (in correct ratios) or they are not. So I am not sure how one would actually be any better than the other unless your talking about making a comparison between BRS 2 part vs B-Ionic, where BRS is just Calcium and Alkalinity, no other minerals, vs B-Ionic, Kent, etc that have extra minerals added.

[SantaMonica]

So what happens to the extra sodium from the baking soda, if it does not combine with the extra chloride from the calcium chloride?

[Aeros]

I didn't mention B-Ionic because of cost. It's almost theft in my book. For a small system you can dose all-in-one Kents liquid cal reactor. The price to performance ratio blows B-Ionic out of the water. And it doesn't get more "extra" then what's in disolved coral skeleton.
How do you figure the Kent Liquid CA reactor stuff is the cheapest? $34.99 for a 64oz container vs $11.99 for a 4.5 POUND jar of BRS Kalkwasser (that will last YEARS! Believe me, I bought one, 5 years later still have 1/2 the jar). Add in a little bottle of Trace Elements and Magnesium, and you have a home made Kent product for a fraction of the cost. Heck, even B-Ionic is cheaper than Kent at Marinedepot. 2 1Gallon jugs of B-Ionic is $35.49, 50cents more and 4x as much product. Or to compare Apples to Apples, $20.99 for 64oz of B-Ionic vs $34.99 for the same amount of Kent.

These are products that we know what it contains, it isn't some mystery/proprietary information where 1 company can make one better than another. They are minerals, either they are in the bottle (in correct ratios) or they are not. So I am not sure how one would actually be any better than the other unless your talking about making a comparison between BRS 2 part vs B-Ionic, where BRS is just Calcium and Alkalinity, no other minerals, vs B-Ionic, Kent, etc that have extra minerals added.

I meant bang for the buck vs B-Ionic. I've used both products, B-Ionic is a thin solution like BRS mixed Calcium. Kents is much thicker, like chalk water sludge. The price per gal is more, but the dose is less to achieve the same effect. Meaning you could dilute Kents to B-ionic strength getting 10x or more product than B-ionic. I have tested Ca after dosing either, but don't remember the ratio... was a while ago.

Feel free to make your own comparison. I bought a 1/2 gal of Kents about 2 years ago and still have a quarter of it left. It's just a pain to dose, so I switched to BRS, which sucks just a little less.

As for Kalk, only a Ca reactor can compare. But Kalk has its own special challenges as we all know.


So what happens to the extra sodium from the baking soda, if it does not combine with the extra chloride from the calcium chloride?

It either bonds with Chloride, fluoride or some other non metal, or remains a free ion. Ionic bonding not does not change it's mass ratio to other ions. More Sodium is still more.

[Ace25]

It sounds like the Kent stuff is similar to "Purple Up", thick white milk looking liquid vs clear water. I haven't used the Kent stuff, so I have no comment on how well it works (though from reviews online it seems to work great). I was just assuming it was the same thing as B-Ionic, ie. clear liquid. Your comment makes much more sense to me now that I know it is more concentrated than B-ionic. Thanks for clarifying.

[SantaMonica]

But wait a minute... regular salt, when added to water, breaks up into sodium and chloride ions. So how is this different than sodium ions from baking soda, and chloride ions from calcium chloride?

[new2scrub]

did a little research on this and it seems to me that in order for you to replace all of the ions with chloride ions via dosing it would take you a LONG time. lets say on a 55 gallon tank you dosed 30ml of each 2-part every day,,lets say that half of the solution was chloride so 15ml. At a rate of dosing 15ml per day to a 55 gallon aquarium it would take you 38 years to replace other ions with chloride. please check my math and chemistry :)

most 55g tanks dose about 30ml of alk&ca p/day

assuming 50% of the calcium chloride is chloride that would be 15ml of pure chloride dosed per day

55 gallons is 208198.00ml

13879 days or 38 years of dosing 15ml of chloride per day = 208198ml or 55 gallons (everything replaced by chloride)

so as you can see it would take a L O N G L O N G time for 2-part to cause any issues IMO

[kerry]

So if one changes a couple to few gallons a year one would be ok.

[Floyd R Turbo]

it would probably take longer than that. It's not a pure solution of 50% chloride and 50% calcium. It's mostly water, about 90%, with the calcium chloride dissolved into it.

So yes it would take a long time to skew the ratio completely, but remember we're talking about keeping things in balance here. So 5% out of balance could be considered to be a situation that could affect the health (positively or negatively) of certain organisms, and you have a cascading effect throughout the entire system.

[new2scrub]

for it to be 5% out of whack ,I think that would take 1.9 years. Think I will just do a 10% w/c every 2 years if that's the case.

We need a chemist to tell us at what % is considered "out of natural seawater range"

[Aeros]

But wait a minute... regular salt, when added to water, breaks up into sodium and chloride ions. So how is this different than sodium ions from baking soda, and chloride ions from calcium chloride?
It's no different in that sense. Again, it comes down to the ratios of ions to each other. Nothing consumes Chloride/Sodium in aquaria. It's an easy way to think of if you pretend you're just adding Sodium and Chloride without Calcium or Carbonate.



did a little research on this and it seems to me that in order for you to replace all of the ions with chloride ions via dosing it would take you a LONG time. lets say on a 55 gallon tank you dosed 30ml of each 2-part every day,,lets say that half of the solution was chloride so 15ml. At a rate of dosing 15ml per day to a 55 gallon aquarium it would take you 38 years to replace other ions with chloride. please check my math and chemistry

most 55g tanks dose about 30ml of alk&ca p/day

assuming 50% of the calcium chloride is chloride that would be 15ml of pure chloride dosed per day

55 gallons is 208198.00ml

13879 days or 38 years of dosing 15ml of chloride per day = 208198ml or 55 gallons (everything replaced by chloride)

so as you can see it would take a L O N G L O N G time for 2-part to cause any issues IMO

You forgot the Sodium Bi/carbonate and the Magnesium Chloride. As well as any in food items (likely close to nothing, but.)

I absolutely agree that this is a long term "chronic" issue, and that small periodic WCs will "fix" the issue, or at least get it close enough. Also take into consideration stony coral stocked tanks. As in mine. I quit dosing 2-part before I hit 200ML a day. That's with all medium (2-4" colonies) in a 120 tank. In six months I could see doubling that dosage, then I'd also be water volume limited, and would have to go to 24/7 dosing (which I did via Ca reactor).

I have aprox 100 gal (~378542 ML). With approx 200 ML dosing a day at 1.025 SG I will displace ~19.3 Gallons of anything that is not Sodium or Chloride in a year. Not cool. But only a big deal if you don't WC

[SantaMonica]

Nothing consumes Chloride/Sodium in aquaria.

I think if you acclimate a few gallons per year, you are fine and back on track.

[RkyRickstr]

Pooooff!!!! There goes my brain.

So my intake from all of this:

Have a scrubber, a ca reactor and do a pwc once in a while.. am i right?

[kerry]

Thats what I gathered Rick. I use the Kent stuff anyway so I do not have a Cal reactor. I have yet to even need to add the Kent Cal. since the tanks have been up. One is more then a year and Cal is 400?

[subielover]

Don't forget the kalkwasser as well Ricky! It really should be just about everyone's first supplementation, IMO. Good information here!

[kotlec]

Pooooff!!!! There goes my brain.

So my intake from all of this:

Have a scrubber, a ca reactor and do a pwc once in a while.. am i right?

I find this reading interesting as I am scared of pressurized tanks in my living room. Its a very good option if your tank is not very big. (and even if it is big :mrgreen: )
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[Aeros]

Pooooff!!!! There goes my brain.

So my intake from all of this:

Have a scrubber, a ca reactor and do a pwc once in a while.. am i right?

I find this reading interesting as I am scared of pressurized tanks in my living room. Its a very good option if your tank is not very big. (and even if it is big :mrgreen: )
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

In that article it's the same as BRS's bulk stuff. And just like this graph:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/r ... age010.jpg (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/images/image010.jpg)
Figure 5. Sulfate concentration as a function of time when performing daily water changes equivalent to 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month (in other words, 0%, 0.25%, 0.5% and 1% per day). In this example, sulfate starts at a natural level of 2710 ppm, and the model assumes the usage of a moderate amount of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to maintain calcium and alkalinity, and Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to maintain magnesium.

Your Chloride and Sodium levels will trend the same, while your other ions get pushed out of solution. Funny how the graph is from the same article talking about excess Sulfate ions, then tells you to add extra Chloride and Sodium :?

If you run a Ca reactor you should never have to do a PWC for non emergency reasons (depending what you use as your reactor media that is). And I keep my CO2 tank in my basement and run a line up with the ATO. The line feed averages about 10 PSI but the line itself is considered zero PSI due to it not being sealed on one end.

[SantaMonica]

What about the consumption of sulphate, as in sulphur reactors? From:
http://www.reef.edu.au/asp_pages/secb.asp?FormNo=2

"Sulphate-reducing bacteria live in places where there is no oxygen, plenty of sulphate and some organic matter present, in sediments for example."

"Sulphate-reducing bacteria are widespread in marine sediments where there is plenty of sulphate. The reason why marine environments are not poisoned by the presence of hydrogen sulphide, which these organisms produce, is that under normal conditions their activities are limited by the supply of organic matter."

"Bacteria in the marine environment are mainly grazed upon by protozoa and invertebrates, particularly polychaetes."

...which then feed the corals and small fish.

[new2scrub]

santa: you lost me :)

so do we have to change any water or no?

[Aeros]

What about the consumption of sulphate, as in sulphur reactors? From:
http://www.reef.edu.au/asp_pages/secb.asp?FormNo=2

"Sulphate-reducing bacteria live in places where there is no oxygen, plenty of sulphate and some organic matter present, in sediments for example."

"Sulphate-reducing bacteria are widespread in marine sediments where there is plenty of sulphate. The reason why marine environments are not poisoned by the presence of hydrogen sulphide, which these organisms produce, is that under normal conditions their activities are limited by the supply of organic matter."

"Bacteria in the marine environment are mainly grazed upon by protozoa and invertebrates, particularly polychaetes."

...which then feed the corals and small fish.

Sulphate is only part of the issue, and a small one at that. Magnesium Sulphate is not dosed nearly as often as Ca, or Carbonate, as such Sulphate's percentage of total solution is low, and may even precipitate out. As for the bio usage, I can only add: the amounts added via dosing would not likely be used up faster then they are added. I base my conclusion on the observation that SG does not decrease with dosing. That it supplies a particular food chain is great to hear. I wonder what typical usage is.

Sulphate aside (I linked the chart above as an example of dosing sans PWCs), the clear point I wanted to stress is: Based solely on analytic conclusions, If you do not regularly perform WCs, AND you dose 2-Part (3-Part), you probably should do PWCs.

I plan on picking up a Chloride kit to see what my months of recklessly adding BRS 2-part did.