Miracles 144/125 Rimless

[Floyd R Turbo]

I started my first scrubber on a tank for one of my clients, and ran this thread on it:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=743 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=743)

Went through the first design in a few months, the second is still running, but has been modified for the new tank. The old tank, a Tenecor 120 Long, developed a crack through the bottom and I had to remove everything and set it up at my house. The scrubber ran on top of the tank, which allowed me to come up with a few different ideas based on the way I had that set up. So without further adue, here is the new system:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-11-18%20Tank%20Build/DSC03307.jpg

The tank is was made by Miracles in Glass (Canada) and is 66 L x 21 W x 24 H, all 5/8" glass except for the front which is 3/4" Starphire, rimless (except for trim on the bottom, which I wasn't expecting), with a notched and tempered left end and an external overflow box with a BeanAnimal Silent and Failsafe Overflow system

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-11-18%20Tank%20Build/DSC03313.jpg

And a custom acrylic sump that I made, specifically for being able to re-use the scrubber

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-11-18%20Tank%20Build/DSC03316.jpg

The return pump is a Reeflo Dart

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-11-18%20Tank%20Build/DSC03379.jpg

And I made a plenum return with 12 outlets and 20 jets, and a lot of Loc-Line

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-11-18%20Tank%20Build/DSC03382.jpg

I had a few problems: #1, the pump housing leaked due to a fabrication issue, which Reeflo quickly replaced, and #2 I had a leak in one of the PVC joints on the plenum, which I patched successfully.

I put in most of the rock, gravel (special grade reef sand) and fish last weekend (12/10)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03573.jpg

Got the rest in a few days later

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03598.jpg

Then started to modify the scrubber. I laminated a bunch of 1/8" black acrylic to the old box

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03587.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03592.jpg

Made some covers to go over the reflector sections

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03593.jpg

Modded the internal box; before I was using a male/female connector set on each corner which led to a drain pipe. This caused excessive noise (gurgling). When I took those off for the top-of-tank version, I noticed there was zero gurgling. So, I siliconed in a couple of 1" PVC plugs (1/2" length, roughly)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03594.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03595.jpg

And made this 1.5" PVC drain pipe that sits underneath the scrubber drains. This way there is an air gap and no gurgling/sucking/noise (and it worked wonderfully)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03596.jpg

I extended the bracket on the end that sits on the sump

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03597.jpg

I added a stand-off for the other end (since it can't hang on the edge on one end)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03603.jpg

Added a strainer around the pump made from Plastic Canvas (the unsung wonder aquarium product)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03631.jpg

Here's the drain in action, you can see I added a second tee below the first one, pointed toward the back of the sump, and inserted a piece of plastic canvas into that section. I also have a small section of PVC pipe under the bottom tee, and then a small piece of foam under it. The canvas insert breaks the fall of the water out of the drain system, and helps direct the flow out the tee. The foam on the bottom of the pipe allows water to flow out but prevents bubbles from flowing out. There is a 'loop' of canvas attached to the tee that helps disperse the flow out of the pipe. Then, to finish it off, there is a cylinder of plastic canvas around the whole assembly that does an extremely excellent job of preventing bubbles from escaping, even with 3000 GPH blowing by it.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03646.jpg

I cut a new slot tube on my table saw (took a couple of practice runs, but I got it...)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03630.jpg

This slot is 14" long versus 20" long (previous build) which falls in line a little better with the new feeding-based sizing requirements. This screen should be able to handle 6-8 cubes per day (about 14 x 7, lit by 4 24W T5HO 3000K lamps). I noticed that the old screens had about 2" on each end that grew very little green, mainly red turf, so I just cut those out and centered the screen on the lamp.

So here it is, all set up and running!

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03643.jpg

I also added an auto top off system from Autotopoff.com and a Tom Aqualifter pump and pre-filter. The 5g bucket will eventually contain Kalkwasser, once I pin down evap and uptake rates. I sucked down about 2.5-3 gallons from Saturday night to Monday morning, so right now it looks like it's about 2 gallons per day.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03645.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03647.jpg

Electrical is pretty crowded. I've used all 4 outlets, and only have one more accessible plug on the 2 power strips in use

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03648.jpg

light, timers in the distance

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03583.jpg

Timers take up so much space on power strips. But oh well. Those Brinks timers from Wal-mart are the most reliable anywhere, and only $8 or so each. So they're worth it.

Here's the overflow box, with an acrylic insert and nylon screen I added to help keep buddies/anemones/anything else large from the overflow box.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03584.jpg

Note the use of plastic canvas, again. This time it prevents bubbles from pushing into the siphon line by breaking the fall of the water into the box. Great, great product.

Even with all of this, one of the clowns already made the trip down the pipe though. He was pretty tired when I was found.

Oh, I can't forget, another use for Plastic Canvas, in the sump, with the high rate of flow I have an narrow space to cram everything, the flow in the intake section is very turbulent. This helped calm the top of the water down quite significantly, and I get no spray from popping bubbles when I crank up the flow now

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03582.jpg

Of course I had to slice it up quite a bit once I put the scrubber and feed pump in there, but it still does the job very well.

I also now use it in the lower left corner of this picture, where the filter pad and filter sock (with carbon in it) are shown

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03632.jpg

There is a section of egg crate there on the last baffle (which is structural, but creates a nice barrier as well) and the plastic canvas is the 'line of defense' to prevent anything of significant size from getting to the pump intake.

So far, so good. The Engineer Goby is having one hell of a time moving the sand around. So far I've sucked about 1/4 of what I put in the tank back out, and he keeps digging it out and putting it in the front. It's a darn good thing I put the base rock down first, THEN the sand!!

[Ace25]

I love those guys (engineer gobies), even more fascinated by them after seeing a documentary and it showed how they live in the wild (never come out of the hole, their kids by the thousands go out and get food for the parents). I learned that lesson early on when I first got an engineer goby, caused a rock slide in the tank in no time. That fish was actually the reason I made a "floating reef" on my 75G, so all the rocks are floating above the sand so no possibility of a rock slide.

Nice looking setup, only thing that would drive me nuts is all those loc-line adapters hanging in the tank. Doesn't seem much better than having powerheads/cords in the tank, still a lot of unsightly mess to look at, but to each their own, if the owner is happy that is all that matters.

Dang, I just realized you made that sump yourself! WOW!!! That is such a super pro job! Well done! I could never make something that clean, especially without practicing on 20 sumps before hand.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Thanks, and would you believe that this sump is the very first thing I ever made all by myself? Of course, I have this router/gluing table

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Miscellaneous/Router%20Table/DSC02561.jpg

and read the entire acrylic thread on RC!

The goal was no power heads as the tank in this location has historically had temp issues. The temp was maintaining around 79 until I added the scrubber, now it's up to 80 midday. Summer is when it starts to be a concern, at times it would not cool below 82 overnight, and get up to 86 during the day. I will be installing some fans for active cooling on this system, mainly to pull the heat from the light fixture out of the cabinet system (it was all trapped heat before).

With the upper doors closed, you hardly see the loc line. Those door cover the top 2" of the tank, so if you're sitting down you can see them, and if you're a kid...but kids could care less...

[SantaMonica]

Very nice build. I use the same kalk topoff pump at about 1 gal a day; the pump will need cleaning in vinegar every few months.

[new2scrub]

nice job! that loc-line would drive me nuts too. maybe after they are encrusted they will blend...? Nice neat sump too! :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Here's how it looks from a little bit more of a distance, standing up

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/2011-12%20Tank%20Build/DSC03638.jpg

Most of the loc-line is out of view. Plus that big red cap draws your attention away from it :)

[kerry]

Real nice set-up you have going there!!! Looks great!!

[tebo]

It's really great, nice job

[Floyd R Turbo]

So I installed the scrubber on 12/17 (Saturday) and cleaned it for the first time yesterday (12/26 Monday). I only have pics from my cell phone and when I download them, you'll be amazed! I got a solid handful of thick, bright green growth! It was so thick that it was difficult to scrape off the screen, which hasn't been the case in a while (the top-of-tank temporary setup was not ideal)

The amount of algae harvested easily matched record growth for this system. What is interesting is that this was done on 30% less screen material (14.5" vs 20").

Also, the most interesting part - PO4 tested 0.01. It's never been below 0.09 (due to Nitrate limitation), so time will tell if this is a trend!

[SantaMonica]

Yes the smaller screen size, for a give amount of nutrients, causes the growth to grow "out" instead of "sideways" because it can't grow sideways because there is no more screen. So by growing "out" it gets closer to stronger light, and gets more 3D flow, which increases filtering even more.

When there is endless screen available, it just grows sideways and never gets closer to the light (actually, it gets farther from the light), and it stays 2D. In the ocean this endless-area does not matter, because growing sideways does not reduce the light

[Floyd R Turbo]

That makes perfect sense. I only wish now I had done this months ago.

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyq77XhvUw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl14nclROCg

[Ace25]

I am not a fan of Deep Sand Beds at all any more. I did a DSB several years ago, it did fantastic for the first 12 months, seriously I couldn't speak highly enough about them the first year, second year, not as good but no major problems, then year 3 hit and the sand just turned to a solid mass on top and under it was all black (hydrogen sulfide). I tried and tried to get the DSB back to "working condition" but never could so finally I just siphoned out most of the sand. As I have found out through experience and research, it takes A LOT of work to make a DSB sustainable. Talking constant stirring of small sections on a monthly basis (never stir more than a 6"x6" patch at a time), use several different size grains of sand from sugar size to pebble size to make different layers, and most importantly, constantly restock the sand bed with critters that make the sand bed their home. Without lots and lots of critters to constantly stir up the sand it quickly loses it positive aspect (talking critters that will bury in the sand, not things like sand sifting gobies or starfish). Also another thing I have found to be necessary is to replace at least 10% of the sand (top layer) on a yearly basis, on top of what gets dissolved through calcification (since aragonite is calcium, it will slowly dissolve over time, about 3/4"-1" a year depending on different factors).

Anyway, enough of my DSB rant, tank looks great and sounds like everything it doing fantastic.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well, I don't have a DSB in this tank, not really. It's the engineer goby moving it all around, and I've sucked out a full bucket of sand. it's bare bottom in the middle.

[Ace25]

Ah, my bad.. I guess I just focused on the giant mounds of sand and totally forgot about the engineer in that tank.. now it all makes sense. :D Teach me to click the video without doing a recap on the thread to re-familiarize myself with the setup. LOL

[Floyd R Turbo]

Screen growth, first harvest 12/26/2011, 10 days growth:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011815.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011816.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011822.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011821.jpg

Phosphate has crept back up to 0.10. Same issue as before, this tank has to be Nitrate limited. I am going to start working in some Calcium Nitrate and see what happens. First though, I have to get a handle on Alk and Cal uptake and switch to Kalwasser. Anyone have a handy calculator for that?

The system sucks down 2g of water per day out of the ATO. I add 6 fl oz of BRS Alk to every 5g bucket and this seems to be holding the Alk steady, dropping a little every week. Started out high (11.2) and is now around 10 or so, each time I test it drops a little bit. Calcium is dropping about 10 points per day or so, I don't have quite as good of a handle on that though, need to be testing a little more often and writing results down. It seems that I add about 10 fl oz of BRS Cal twice a week, just upped it to the max 19 fl oz dose today. Also had to boost Mag the full 100 points which I haven't had to do in a long time, all indication of some serious growth happening!

[Floyd R Turbo]

This got cut out in "the move" (or I forgot to post it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyq77XhvUw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl14nclROCg

[Aeros]

Screen growth, first harvest 12/26/2011, 10 days growth:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011815.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011816.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011822.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20125%20Reef/ATS%20Weekly%20Growth/1226011821.jpg

Phosphate has crept back up to 0.10. Same issue as before, this tank has to be Nitrate limited. I am going to start working in some Calcium Nitrate and see what happens. First though, I have to get a handle on Alk and Cal uptake and switch to Kalwasser. Anyone have a handy calculator for that?

The system sucks down 2g of water per day out of the ATO. I add 6 fl oz of BRS Alk to every 5g bucket and this seems to be holding the Alk steady, dropping a little every week. Started out high (11.2) and is now around 10 or so, each time I test it drops a little bit. Calcium is dropping about 10 points per day or so, I don't have quite as good of a handle on that though, need to be testing a little more often and writing results down. It seems that I add about 10 fl oz of BRS Cal twice a week, just upped it to the max 19 fl oz dose today. Also had to boost Mag the full 100 points which I haven't had to do in a long time, all indication of some serious growth happening!

Use Kalk to top off, and correct with BRS. As for calculating you'll have to see what others are doing for an approximation then tailor the dosage to your needs. Kinda wish I had a separate ATO tank so I could play with Kalk.

This should keep you more consistent.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Here's the 3rd harvest from yesterday

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0113021219.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0113021231.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0113021233.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0113021236.jpg

Gooey and smelly. I wouldn't call it "rubbery" because it doesn't feel this way, but sure looks that way. This is what I'm talking about when I say your growth can vary. The second harvest was about 1/2 way between green/bushy and this.

I cut the lights back 1 hour on each end, so now they're about 16 on and 8 off. We'll see how it looks when I get back from a week of vacation.

On the "OH CR!!!P I DID NOT JUST DO THAT" side, after finishing this up I went to clean off a few things in the sump and had to undo a nylon nut/bolt fitting and what did I do on the day before vacation? I dropped the nut in the sump, and it got sucked into the pump. I heard 'click...click' then normal running...I about shad my pants. I came back a few hours later, armed and ready to disassemble the pump and found the nut

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/Misc/0113021631.jpg

as I suspected, not big enough to get through the impeller. It was wedged in there so there was actually no way it was going anywhere. But now I can lay on the beach and be completely relaxed. Ahhhh.

[reeftanknewbie]

got to love murphy....he hates it when you try to get some much needed down time I noticed. This is a great looking build. what did you use to cut the acrylic with?

[Floyd R Turbo]

What acrylic? If you mean for the sump, I have an acrylic fabrication shop in my garage. If you mean the overflow insert, that came with the tank.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I find myself in a conundrum. Look back in this thread and you'll see that the first week with the new setup has great green growth, and since then it has steadily declined. Here are pics from the last 2 sets of cleanings:

01/23/2012

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021731.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021731a.jpg

The gooey yellow and slimy brown stuff came off with a light swipe and was kind of straw-like I suppose in that it felt like I was scraping a credit card across the 'hooks' side of a patch of velcro, and beneath it was this:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021742.jpg

Here is the 'goo' layer

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021742a.jpg

...and here is the rest of what I scraped off

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021744.jpg

barely enough to cover the palm of my hand

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0123021745.jpg

The next cleaning was yesterday 2/2/12 and wasn't much different

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0202021721.jpg

other side

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0202021721a.jpg

beneath the goo layer

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/0202021722.jpg

This type of growth has a rather pungent smell to it. I have to make sure that I come in after the office closes to clean it, because while I'm used to it, let's just say the staff is not! The stink disappears as soon as I put the goo layer down the disposal.

This time I left most of the green on the screen and scrubbed the top and bottom inch to clear the slot and red turf.

My lights are currently 16 on 8 off, lamp are only a month or so old, 4x T5HO, screen is 14.5" wide and about 6.5" tall (effective) so that's about 7 cubes a day max, and the tank is being fed about half of that probably. I am also getting a lot of slime coming off the screen and it tends to build up on the bubble-blocker basket I have surrounding the outflow (which is made of plastic canvas) and then I have a baffle section with white egg crate and more plastic canvas that grows a nice colony of the thin, brown slime tendrils every 10 days, which I believe to be dinos. The top of the water in the pump intake section is stagnant and grows a nice layer of foamy goo which resembles the goo layer of the screen.

The N is rock solid zero and P was 0.06 2 days before cleaning. It was 0.01 a week or so back. Alk 8-9, Cal 400-425ish, Mag 1350, Salinity 34ppt, pH 8ish. Corals and fish doing just fine, no nuisance algae in the tank.

I am starting to question my use of the plastic canvas through the system. There is another thread on here regarding algae growth on white egg crate and also a reference to Sanjay's carbon dosing experiment where he found Brute trash cans and other plastic containers seemed to breed bacteria well. I am wondering if this could be the case in this system, using lots of canvas in several areas is leading to a bacterial colony feeding ground? I use it in the overflow box to break the fall of the weir, then in the intake/baffle section of the sump to prevent salt creep (and it works awesome), then the scrubber screen (obviously), the outflow tee has some inserted into it, the basket surrounding the outflow from the scrubber, and in front of the last baffle (#5) to snag any big stuff.

Anyways, any thoughts?

I find myself on the other side of the fence here. Normally I would tell someone in this situation that they do not have enough nutrients and they should feed more or downsize the screen, or cut the photoperiod. I downsized the screen once and I suppose I could shave another inch or so off. But I think I would rather down the photoperiod if that is a fix. Since I'm not using "double the light" is this OK to do? Should I just keep bumping down the photoperiod until the nutrients start to rise?

I'm also wondering if the brown slimy dino growth is a result of the algae not being able to get to the P since there's no N, and something else then uses the light to process whatever is available. Any thoughts on that?

Just trying to throw some ideas out. I come across this type of issue on RC, people saying they're just growing slime and I'd like to figure it out.

[Ace25]

I believe this is the article your referencing in regards to Brute trash cans being a bacteria feeding ground. I was actually suprised it took this long for something to be published about it because I would think anyone who has used plastic trashcans for mixing water and left a little at the bottom for a week or so would have seen this problem. I know I have. Actually, just yesterday I pulled an old white 5G water jug out of the closet to fill up with 1.018 SW for my rotifer buckets and there was about 1/4 cup of saltwater still in the bottom. Probably sat for over a year, and it was just a solid geletin mass.

Still, plastic is plastic and I really don't see how using egg crate would be that much different than canvas other than it would have less surface area for bacteria to colonize on. This is one of the biggest reasons I also tell people they shouldn't carbon dose when using at ATS because I do think the ATS provides plenty of opportunity for bacteria to grow without the need for extra dosing, liquid or solid. When I ran a dual screen / dual layer setup I had a ton of bacteria in the sump, like you describe, but probably 10x worse since I didn't use a basket to catch most of it. I could literally take a net and scoop out about 1/2 gallon of "snot" from the surface and walls of the sump every couple days on my original ATS setup. Another problem I had though was I was using a rubbermaid container as a sump, again, all plastic, so the entire sump was also food for bacteria. Then I made the fatal mistake of adding a Bio-Pellet reactor during this time.. talk about a quick tank crash. I did all this before the article was published and I had my suspicions it was the plastic (more so once bio-pellets came out and I saw it was plastic that feeds them) and the article was the final straw that pushed me into getting rid of as much plastic out of my system as I could. I still have questions about ABS though, I am curious if that also feeds bacteria since I use ABS for baffles and making ATS boxes out of.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

On the scrubber pictured, my opinion, I do think reducing the light hours will make all the difference. I would drop it down to 12/12 for now and see how that works for you before making any other changes. I would put $ that you would not get nearly as much "goo" and a lot more green.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Very interesting. So I might in effect be carbon dosing my system to some extent? The plastic canvas has such a great surface area so this would make sense I suppose. I wish someone would take Sanjay's article and dig into the plastic question. I guess I could make more of the parts out of acrylic and see if that helps get rid of the dark slime layer on top of the algae mat and the stuff in the sump. I'm kind of bummed out now though because that plastic canvas is very useful for everything I described. It seems there is no real easy answer because I even have some of the 1/4" nylon netting right at the weir and that grows slime on it too. Seems that anything plastic is a bacterial magnet.

I'll knock the light back a couple more hours and see what happens. Thanks!

[kerry]

I have to clean my screen this weekend Floyd and will try to get pics. My screen cleanings are similar to yours but not that bad and the only plastic I have in my system is the canvas screen, pump, pvc and fittings.

[SantaMonica]

The lack of green now is from lack of nutrients; you've pulled them down as far as your design can do. So the goo grows instead.

The smell is dead roots under the goo, which cannot get light/flow.

The solution is to clean a bit more often, but if you can, reduce hours a bit so the roots don't die.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Thanks. I usually try to stop in an check the growth a couple times in between cleanings. The yellowish growth seems to dominate lately throughout the entire growth cycle, and the brown coating (looks like dinos to me) is what I thought was making it smell, but I could be wrong. I'm guessing that the yellow bubbly growth does a good job of blocking light, but it doesn't block it enough to cause detachment, at least not yet. I have been going 10 days between cleanings, I will probably go 8 and see if that makes a difference.

I thought that since I was getting some green growth underneath that there might be benefit in stopping in at the 5 day point and doing a quick surface scrape of the yellow stuff. I don't know if that would encourage more green, since like you said, it's pulled the nutrients down pretty well.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have reduced the photoperiod to 11 hours on, I cleaned the screen yesterday for the first time since running this photoperiod for the full 10 days. The growth in the box (that attaches to the acrylic) has diminished, which is nice. At the last cleaning, I left a good portion of the GHA on the screen and this seemed to help, but I am still getting a lot of the slim growth which I think it detaching and being caught in the bubble-trap basket I have set up in the sump.

Here's pics of the screen before cleaning

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00004.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00003.jpg

And here's the bubble-trap basket before cleaning

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00002.jpg

I am in the process of uploading a few YouTube videos. This first one should be done in about 5 minutes. The others will take a bit longer, I'll post them as they come.

First one shows the system before I shut it down to clean. Second shows cleaning of the goo layer (and it's long, so probably will take 30 minutes to upload). Third shows the after scraping the screen.

[kerry]

Floyd, that stuff you have is much more different then my dark algae. My dark stuff is really a dark green. Next time I clean I will try to remember and spread out the scrapped algae to show the color against the white sink.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well the #1 vid failed for some reason. Here's the long one though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efRuI4JcMx0

[Floyd R Turbo]

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tot-LtNJRN0

[kerry]

Nice vids Floyd!! My dark algae is not slimly or snotty like that. Its just really dark green short hair algae.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok got the first one uploaded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6a0M3EEhDk

[SantaMonica]

I think more light is needed.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I was knocking it back because it was growing yellow goo. 2 screens about 7x7 each, roughly, and feeding probably 2-3 cubes/day of DIY food, and I'm sure he forgets to feed at least one day a week and they're lucky to get fed on the weekend. So I'm guessing it averages out to 2 cubes/day or less. Lucky for me, my LEDs and heat sinks come in this week...

[Floyd R Turbo]

Here's a few pics from today. Tank is doing great!

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00017.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00027.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00028.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00029.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00031.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00033.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-02-24/DSC00043.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Also I switched to Kalkwasser in the ATO today. Mixed up a batch of saturated solution using vinegar in the RODI first, then diluted to 30% strength. Check Alk and Ph of it today against what I was using (3 fl oz of BRS alk in 5g) and the pH and Alk are about the same, so I'm not too worried about anything, and will probably increase the concentration at some point. Lots of testing in order over the next week!

[kerry]

It sure is!!! Thats great Sir. That coral on the very far right front, looks like the (softy) Nepthea. Is that what it is?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, I had to look that up but it is a Colt Coral and I guess now I know it's Nepthea. It's gotten pretty big over the last year. Before I moved the tank due to the impending failure in May, it was maybe 4" tall.

[Ace25]

That is an amazing amount of coraline algae growing on the back glass in such a short period.. just going off that I would say the tank appears to be VERY happy. :D

[SantaMonica]

Makes me want to try more softies again.

[Floyd R Turbo]

They do frickin great. Check out the cabbage coral on the far left and the one in the center behind the tri-color valida. Those are in hog heaven. Same for the 'shrooms, they split like mad

[kerry]

I have all soft except for my two brains coral and they all so awesome.

[Floyd R Turbo]

New additions today

7" Deresa Clam

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-03-03/DSC00067.jpg

Yellow Tang, shown here being greeted by the Scopas Tang, who is saying "check out my tail barb!"

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-03-03/DSC00070.jpg

Majestic Angel hiding in the back corner

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-03-03/DSC00069.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Screen cleaning yesterday at 9 days, the scrubber box was about 1/3 to 1/2 full - there was so much goo growth that both 1" drains were significantly blocked. I will be switching back to 7 day cleaning

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00065.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00064.jpg

This is the goo off both screens, with one screen shown for reference. The green hair on the screen came off very easily, probably due to light blockage. I would mess with this scrubber more if I wasn't building an LED one to replace it right now.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/ATS%20Growth/DSC00066.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Video of the tangs & tank overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjV64FR6ORQ

[SantaMonica]

I need to get clams again too. I killed my 3 previous ones with various methods.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Wow I haven't updated this thread in a while. Since the last update coral growth has continued to keep steady, but a few fish were lost when something tripped the GFCI breaker and the went without power for 13 hours. Lost the Scopas Tang and Flame Fin Tang, and a shrimp. Everyone else made it. next week of growth on scrubber was really good. LOL.

The old scrubber tended to get algae filling in the bottom so much that it would threaten to clog both of the drains (2 1" drains, and they would still back up the box by the end of the week). I was uncomfortable leaving this scrubber for more than 7 or 8 days between cleanings, and I was getting ready to leave for a week, so I hurried up and replaced it with an L2 scrubber.

Here are some videos of the installation


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fjA9TlAF58


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROAOYL4AkwU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j83F0Izq4k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0LBL1O3BDQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCPZBJkQNtw

[Floyd R Turbo]

Update today, I went in to check on the system after installing the L2 LED Algae Scrubber on Friday, June 29th before I left for the week, so the scrubber had 9 days of growth. The tank had probably been fed on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. There was one mishap where the ATO line was not completely in the sump, and about 2 gallons of water made it's way onto the carpet, but other than that, things looked great.

I tested the water and was quite surprised to find:

Alk 9.3-9.5 (higher than the normal 8.0-8.5
Cal 400 (about right for a weeks w/o dosing)
Nitrate 0.0 (rock bottom, as usual, but this scrubber is 1/4 the size)
Phospate 0.00 on Hanna Checker

The last one was the biggest surprise, because the previous scrubber could not get P below 0.06-0.09 on a regular basis. So we'll see if that hold up, but I am obviously very happy with the results. The tank looks nice and clean, no algae on the front glass (I'm assuming it was cleaned on Friday) and all the fish and corals looked happy, including the frickin Anthelia which I will have to prune back ASAP.

The screen was mostly green, in pics they don't look as green as the video, must be the flash. Still some yellow, but I expect that after a full week of feeding (including today) this will become less. However I may have to knock the photoperiod back a little more. Right now it's running a split 8 hour period, on at 6pm, off at 10pm, on at 2am off at 6am. I did that to help keep the pH from swinging down too far at night. I may switch this to 4x 2hr periods or even 6-7 1 hr periods.

I removed the 1-1/2" spa flex and added a 1" to 3/4" reducer and a 3/4" ball valve and tuned the drain. It is now dead silent, the only thing you hear from the system is a faint gurgle of water flowing through the sump at 3000 GPH.

Videos are uploading...will post as soon as they're done.

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCd8MDwGTwY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bE-C78PnVA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbQ1HWcoYds

[Floyd R Turbo]

Been a while since I updated this thread. I have a backlog of pictures and videos to post and I'll get to them when I can. It is rather satisfying, because in the month since I posted last the L2 is growing consistently and today I tested the water pulled from the tank before cleaning the screen and N=0 on Salifert and P=0.00 on Hanna Phosphate Checker. The water in this tank has only tested 0.00 on P 2 other times since I got the checker - one week after putting the old scrubber back on after setting the tank up again in December, and one other time but I can't recall when that was.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well here's a very long overdue update covering several cleanings since the last set of videos posted on 7/8....

7/15 cleaning

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05218.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05219.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05220.jpg

7/22 Cleaning

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05231.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05230.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05232.jpg

7/31

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05290.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Lg2VM9MjA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEIeAL5sRqY

8/8

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/0808021820b.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/0808021820a.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/0808021820.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/0808021821.jpg

8/16

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05357.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05361.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/L2%20Algae%20Scrubber%20Pics/DSC05362.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eFxFgRFmCg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgKSV0Y2l5c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y27baWGjxY0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpJgXea5aIg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Tested water today - cleaned screen 5 days ago

P=0.03
N~0.5

So there is a slight rise. Going to continue testing at mid-week and end of week before cleaning.

[Smitty]

You have the screen way up into the tube feeding water. I only have a small amount into the tube. Does it make a difference how much screen goes up in the tube?

I hope I'm explaining that good enough.

[Garf]

Smitty - shove it all the way in, then it don't flop about too much.

[Floyd R Turbo]

smitty, it doesn't matter how you do it, if you do it like you are (I did it that way on my larger old scrubber) then you just support it by the edges of the screen. If you only use one tie, you have to put it in the middle and then the screen is kept "square" by the top of the screen holding against the inside of the top of the slot pipe, that's all. IMO either way is fine and doesn't affect flow, but I have noticed that the in-tube screen tends to be a home for crustaceans. If you are feeding via overflow, I would choose the 2-tie method like you are using for the reason that if something were to make it down the overflow and into the pipe, it might snag on the screen if it were inserted all the way into the pipe, whereas if it is not, then water pressure would push it to the end of the slot pipe.

[Garf]

Obviously Floyd is vastly more experienced than me in this. I find that shoving the screen all the way in, held semi tight with 3 ties allows for adjustment. When the screen grows heavy green it can buckle. Subtle movement of the ties can redistribute even flow to both sides of the screen ( my screen is 13 inch wide though ). I see you crustacean point Floyd. I got extra folded screen in mine to even out flow and not had and problem yet though but saying that, mine is not overflow fed directly.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Do you have a pic of this folded screen thing? Didn't understand that the first time I saw you mention that

[Floyd R Turbo]

A couple videos that I took yesterday, the first one is a overall tour of the tank and system


http://youtu.be/ocbz3y0X6jA

Second is a beginning-to-end cleaning video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IG8sZgchwg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Cleaning after 10 days since last cleaning. This is still running a Rev 1 L2.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBAQR10xNc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3L5AwsSMZs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lstuqDpw9yo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSeibU0Et4

4th is still loading and will be viewable shortly

Tested water pulled before cleaning scrubber:

Alk 9.5
Cal 370 (bumped it up)
N 0
P 0.02
Salinity 1.027 / 36 (high)
K 330 (low)

[tebo]

Nice man