Dino plague in scrubbed tank.

[joelespinoza]

I am having a problem with a dino plague in 55 gallon tank where my only filtration is the scrubber. It seems like the only usable advice for getting rid of the crap includes lights out and increased filtration (protien skimmer etc) but what do you do when the lights ARE your filtration?

Here is what I am fighting:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/th_PICT0122_mpeg4.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/?action=view&current=PICT0122_mpeg4.mp4)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/th_PICT0123_mpeg4.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/?action=view&current=PICT0123_mpeg4.mp4)

I tried everything I could think of (increased PH via kalk, manual removal, H2O2 treatment, lights out for a week) but nothing kills this shit. Suggestions?

[SantaMonica]

Need pics of scrubber, and how much you are feeding.

Lights out is not the answer.

[joelespinoza]

The scrubber is 2 full sized screens that each have a 26 watt 2700 CFL bulb about an inch or less from them, you have seen several pics of them in the other thread I have about lighting ideas. I feed the tank almost nothing, all I have is a mandrin goby and 1 damsel, I put a small amout of shrimp roe in every couple days (maybe a mass the size of a dime or less daily) I ahve never had any measurable nitrates, nitrites, ammonia since right after I got everything set up, I also dont have any phosphates.

Each of the screens has the CFL like this one but I removed the T5 tubes based on your suggestion.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/0924111700.jpg

[SantaMonica]

What surfaces is it growing on.

[joelespinoza]

All of them, but its worse in areas with higher light, my screens and the upper rocks are the worst, it can get up to half inch thick on those.

[jimrawr]

Are you sure its Dinos? It doesnt really look like it to me

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/mantisfreak/Fish027.jpg

[joelespinoza]

Im sure, it starts to look brown and bubble like that if given enough time. Also keep in mind there are millions, if not billions of different kinds of dinos. They dont ALL look alike.

[SantaMonica]

Which screens

[joelespinoza]

My algae scrubber screens, it grows prolifically on them.

[SantaMonica]

Let's see pics of the screen right before cleaning, from a few different angles.

[joelespinoza]

I actually cant send you any pictures, I ripped apart the whole thing.

I threw out all the sand, I scrubbed and scoured every surface in the display and sump, removed every bit of the crap and drained the entire tank. Then I filled it up with chlorinated tap water, turned on the pump and put 32 ounces of H2O2 in it just to make sure everything was dead. The next day I drained all that and filled the tank up with RODI water and added all the salt I have (enough to bring it up to SG of 1.010) and I added some freshwater Malasiyan Trumpet Snails (I am going to test how well they can acclimated to saltwater). Then I ordered some more kent reef salt online, which I am still waiting on.

I put some throughly scubbed live rock in a 5 gallon hex tank on my kitchen counter (that also has a mini algae scrubber that runs off the display light) I also have my few corals frags and my mandrin goby along with my damsel in there. I have been treating it daily with about 5 ML of H2O2, and even still that shit is growing in that 5 gallon tank, and I wont be able put my livestock back in the main tank until it is all dead. However I need that to be relatively soon since I am basically starving the fish in that tank to avoid feeding the plague.


EDIT: The stuff starts off growing in a clear slime and gets thicker and thicker, it is about the consistancy of snot, but smoother, without lumps. I dont think it is actually brown, I think it just gets that way from collecting crap, and it is clearly either photosynthetic or just likes light, because it definately grows better in light. On my algae screens it was about 3/8ths of an inch thick on both sides of the screen, and grew in a perfect circle where the circle of light was. It takes a while (a week maybe) before it starts gathering or producing bubbles and sending up strands like the other picture posted, but it gets there.

[RkyRickstr]

Wow.. guess u had enough.. lol

I faught that stuff for two months. Eventually it died.

[joelespinoza]

I have been fighting it since July, it showed no signs of slacking off. When I ripped apart the tank a couple days ago, it was at its most overwhelming. I probably removed 3-5 gallons of that shit from the tank and sump, and I had just cleared as best I could (without tearing it apart) about a week and a half before that.

[SantaMonica]

Sounds like almost nonexistent scrubber lighting. If the only scrubber growth on near the bulb, and the growth was only slime, this sounds like a 5 watt bulb.

[joelespinoza]

I think we are getting off the point here. These dinos are a plague and I am trying to get rid of them, this is not just normal slime growing on a little area on the screens, it is clear dino slime growing in nearly a perfect circle, slightly larger then the reflectors, covering nearly the whole screen. If they were ONLY growing on the screen I would not be bothered, but they grow EVERWHERE and smother EVERYTHING in both my tank and sump, and I cant put my livestock back in my steralized tank until I figure out how to get rid of it.

What I am is wondering is how do people with scrubbers get rid of infectious plagues like this? Since it seems H2O2, no light and increased filtering are some of the only things that even slow it down, and all these things are directly in opposition to algae scrubbers.

These are my exact bulbs, and they were replaced less than a month ago:
http://media.toolking.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/G/E/GE_74203_2_Count_26_Watt_Soft_White_General_Purpos e_Spiral_Light_Bulb.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Dino's require N and P to grow. Without it, they die. Dino's tend to grow when the light is very weak, or on a brand new screen. The other extreme would by the light is way too strong and close, and is only allowing a yellowish jello to grow there.

[joelespinoza]

Let me repeat, there are no nitrates or phosphates, there never have been the entire time I have been testing the tank (the last 6 months)

I have 2 full size screens each with a reflector and a 26 watt CLF 2700k bulb running 14 hours a day. The lights are about an 1-1.5 inches away from the screens.

What I am growing clearish, slightly white slime that grows on everything, it starts off looking EXACTLY like the fungus that grows on decaying matter in a freshwater tank. Anyone who has come home to a dead freshwater fish and seen the clear/white capsule knows what I am refering too.

It is the consistancy of thick snot, it grows much better and thicker in areas of high light, on the screens and on the tops of of the upper rocks. It is denser and not as thick on the screens (maybe 1/4-3/8 inch), probably due to the high flow, and thicker and less dense on the top rocks up to 1/2-5/8 inch, but clearly the same crap.

When it is left alone for a week or more (not being scrubbed off) it will start to turn brownish (and produce or collect bubbles and get those upwards bubble tendrils.

[felps]

live sand activator http://www.ipsf.com/livesand.html

Is that the source of excess N and P feeding dino`s,cyano whatever it is

Im guessing your live sand is now rotting and fuelling the dino`s

[joelespinoza]

It is not impossible, I have dumped all the sand in my main tank in the trash, we will have to see how the 5 gallon livestock tank does, because there was no activator put in there.

[RkyRickstr]

Sure your n and p will test zero, because that crap is consuming it all.. if you get your scrubber working correctly then it can starve the crap and it would die.. your focuss should be improving your scrubber.

Thats what sm is trying to tell you.. if your p and n where TRULY zero then you wouldnt have that crap.

[joelespinoza]

The problem is my scrubber works fine. Even though that crap smothers everything I still had some GHA growing on the scrubber, and I removed at least a pound of that crap a week from the scrubber screens. I have probably removed something like 20 gallons of that shit since July. Since I only feed the a dime sized amout per day, something doesnt add up. The idea behind nutrient export is removing growth that is consuming nutrients, well if this shit was living off phosphate and nitrates it would have long ago starved itself to death.

Perhaps its a rare type of dino that doesnt need as much in the way of phosphates or nitrates to grow more mass. I dont know. But I do know that never having ANY measurable waste products in your tank and removing that shit by the bucket full every week isnt going to cut it.

Hopefully it will no longer be an issue since there is now NOTHING for it to feed on, but eventually my fish will have to eat again.

[new2scrub]

I think we NEED a picture and a proper id,,without them we are all guessing, could be anything,fungus,algae,diatom,dino,,,,anything.....

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Is it possible you have a source of silicates in your system?

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatom ... uarium.htm (http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatomandslimemicroalgae/a/A-Simple-Cure-For-Brown-Algae-In-Your-Saltwater-Aquarium.htm)

[joelespinoza]

I think we NEED a picture and a proper id,,without them we are all guessing, could be anything,fungus,algae,diatom,dino,,,,anything.....

Did you watch the 2 videos I posted?


Is it possible you have a source of silicates in your system?

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatom ... uarium.htm (http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatomandslimemicroalgae/a/A-Simple-Cure-For-Brown-Algae-In-Your-Saltwater-Aquarium.htm)

Anything is possible, I have removed all the sediment from my tank for that very possibility, I am now going bare bottom until I am sure the issue is resolved.

[iggy]

I am actually satisfied with your identification in the first photograph. It is very characteristic of dino's! Hate this thread redirects aquarists to square one. The frenzy with running an ATS has led to forgoing some fundamentals.

According articles on Reefkeeping.com, dinoflagellates are effectively treated by increased pH on about half of cases. However I would also run skimmer during treatment of dino's. You need to remove particulate when it dies. How do you intend to do this? Hmmm

[SantaMonica]

Removing food particulates does not remove N or P. If you do use a skimmer to remove food particles, you still need to increase removal of N and P.

If you just remove enough N and P from the beginning, you can leave all the food particulates (and food DOC) in the water to feed the corals.

[iggy]

The dying dinoflagellates particles is not likely a good food source.

[SantaMonica]

Why not, especially for phyto-loving gorgs, and algae-hungry copepods.

[Aeros]

Hydrogen Peroxide dosing has shown to be effective on dino outbreaks. It will also kill sponges and "pods" so buyer beware.

[joelespinoza]

I pulled the whole thing apart and cleaned the crap out of everything including removing ALL the sand. I then kept everything in 5 gallon buckets in the dark and treated it with H2O2 for a couple weeks, including filling the tank up with tapwater and 32 ounces of H202.

Then I drained the tank, filled it back up with fresh RODI water and salt, then put everything back in. I am thinking it might have been my deep sand bed supplying nutrients, it was mostly well rinsed galveston sand.

I think the organism was actually what is called "golden alga" (a type of dino) its possible I picked it up from sand/rock/peppermint shrimp I got off the beach here.

It has been a while now and everything seems ok. Hopefully it will stay that way. Scrubber is still working great and never any signs of N or P.

[MorganAtlanta]

If you used sand from the beach in Galveston, you probably got silica sand rather than aragonite sand. This result sounds like all the dire warnings I've heard about using silica sand.

[joelespinoza]

If you used sand from the beach in Galveston, you probably got silica sand rather than aragonite sand. This result sounds like all the dire warnings I've heard about using silica sand.

I am not convinced that quartz sand is any more dangerous than a quartz sand based tank (every glass tank ever made) or the silicone based sealant, which is likely more soluble than either, and seals just about every glass tank ever made.

I have read discussions and arguments on both sides about this issue, and most of the warnings I have read against quartz sand have been made much the same way warnings against witchcraft were made in Salem, with nothing resembling proof and lots of mindless fear. However, many of the arguments I have read for why quartz sand makes no significant impact on free silicates in a reef tank tend to be well thought out, logical, and even include a bit of proof via chemistry.

In the end I am not sure what the issue was, my sandbed was too deep, and it may have had rotting organisms, even though it was throughly rinsed in freshwater, dried out for weeks, and then rinsed again before being put into the tank. I do think its likely that the organism originally came into the tank via something in galveston, but what that was I still dont know.

I recently found out I was using refractometer that was causing my tank salinity to be WAY high. That could have even been a significant part of the issue. In the end there is just no telling.

[SantaMonica]

Dino's or diatoms cannot grow if N and P are low.

[joelespinoza]

Dino's or diatoms cannot grow if N and P are low.

Until you suffer a severe dino outbreak you cant get rid of, you will never understand how frustrating, useless and annoying it is to have EVERYONE tell you that.

My tank never had ANY measurable anything. It also had no visible source of anything that could have led to N or P. The maximum amount of food I fed the tank in that span of months was not even an ounce (all the while nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and phosphates were unmeasurably low), the amount of dino crap I removed was well over 35 lbs (easily at LEAST a 5 gallon bucket full, probably more like 10+ gallons)

Anyway, if anyone else ever suffers this, good luck. All the advice you hear will probably be useless. I know it was for me. Mechanical removal of everything you can, less/no light and 1+ml of 3% H2O2 per gallon/per day for several weeks was the only thing that helped me.

[kerry]

Do we even have a positive ID on the type of algae it is??? Maybe its not even algae but bacteria instead. Dont diatoms have huge growth when silicon or silica is present? Are you on top of it yet? I have heard Algae-X by pond champs works pretty good, never used it though. It is copper based though.

[joelespinoza]

Do we even have a positive ID on the type of algae it is??? Maybe its not even algae but bacteria instead. Dont diatoms have huge growth when silicon or silica is present? Are you on top of it yet? I have heard Algae-X by pond champs works pretty good, never used it though. It is copper based though.

A: It was toxic to snails, hermits and dalmation mollies. It looked like a dino, it smelled like a dino and it killed livestock like a dino. It was probably a dino, but if not it was still a nasty ass, toxic, at least partially photosynthetic, organism that smothered everything. It had to go.

B: This will be a reef tank someday, I would sooner dump in a gallon of bleach rather than copper. At least the aquarium and rocks can be reused as a reef tank if I just dump in bleach.

[kerry]

Sounds like an awful mess either way. I read a thread on another forum about a guy that used it on a reef tank and only lost one coral???? Seems hard to believe but thats what it said. Here is the thread. Its ultra algae-x, I guess different from what I thought algae-x was. Here is the link: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090179 .

[joelespinoza]

I realize it is a convenience thing to call something a "dino" or a "diatom" but it does kinda amaze moe how many people have told me what I had does or does not look like a "dino" just to educate the masses a tiny bit.... I am a marine biology student at Texas A&M Galveston, I am surrounded by doctors who work on this stuff for a living.... Those doctors (and science community in general) often cant decide what to call something even if they can identify every bit of its morphology under and electron microscope, and every bit of its genome. The classifications are simply not as clear cut and well divided as most people assume.

Reading this gives you a small idea of how complex naming and classifiying any single celled organism is, especially a "mixatrophic" one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate

[Enigma84]

I'm having a problem with this dino stuff to plague proportions. It started as I didn't have strong enough light, but don't think it's going to correct itself, now I have the stronger lights. I was considering using this fauna marin ultra algae x, but didn't know whether after the problem had subsided, I would be able to grow hair algae on the screen again. Does this stuff attack the algae or the food source, and if its the Algae, are the affects on hair algae permanent?

[SantaMonica]

Probably is not permanent.

But the question is how good the screen is growing.

[Enigma84]

Santa Monica, you were in on the other thread I made about increasing the light and the hair growing brown. I had to clean it today, which was three days from the last cleaning and all I got off it was brown snot like slime. I think I'm gonna have a long job waiting for the scrubber to clear it. I would say the volume of dinos is at least double, and have today turned the dt lights down to 7 hours to try and help combat it. I do have a number of sps frags, and don't want them to die. This is the reason for considering this durastic solution.

[Garf]

What's your pH like?

[Enigma84]

Well, through the roof actually. I figured it was high as I am using the bottom of the bucket from d and d without properly stirring it first. Have done an awful lot of water changes to try and reduce without any success. 8.5-8.6 peak

[Garf]

Well, through the roof actually. I figured it was high as I am using the bottom of the bucket from d and d without properly stirring it first. Have done an awful lot of water changes to try and reduce without any success. 8.5-8.6 peak

I would rectify this first, by excessive aeration to get some co2 into the water column. Are you not running a skimmer ?

[Enigma84]

Yes, running a turboflotor multi sl. Is it best to run this at same time? It's pulling a fair old bit of crud out.

[Garf]

Yes, running a turboflotor multi sl. Is it best to run this at same time? It's pulling a fair old bit of crud out.
Are you able to adjust it so that it just aerates, not skim. Fully aerated saltwater has a pH of 8.2. Are you using kalkwasser?

[Enigma84]

Can do. Would it not benefit me to remove all waste that might contribute to dino food? I think it's just because I didn't stir the salt and got to the bottom. I was manually dosing but haven't done that for a month as my levels were good and ph was 8.3-8.4

[SantaMonica]

Dino's won't have food if your scrubber is growing. Dino's are the first to go.

[joelespinoza]

Dino's won't have food if your scrubber is growing. Dino's are the first to go.

Sadly its not that easy. There is more species of "Dinos" then their are of vertebrates, making a broad statement like that is not unlike saying something along the lines of "a warm water bath and mild soap kills vertebrates". While it is not a completely false statement, if that was all anyone prescribed for getting rid of vertebrates, then the individual with the infestation of humans would be ready to climb a clock tower with a rocket launcher after about the the millionth time they had been fed the line: "Why dont you put them in a warm water bath and add some soap? If only you did that the problem would go away, because that is how you kill vertebrates, if it did not kill them, then you clearly did something wrong, try again".

Anyone who has been fighting an algae outbreak like this for any length of time has probably read "Lower N and P and that will fix all algae issues" ad nauseum, saying it again will not help them, it will only make them more frustrated.

BTW: My dinos ate my scrubber. It did no good at all. The only thing that helped in my case was scrubbing the hell out of everything and removing any possible places where it could be hiding, then peroxiding the hell out of everything and then leaving everything in the dark for several days, with peroxide daily.

Your mileage may differ.

[Enigma84]

Well, I have just finished a 21 day cycle of fauna marin algae x, and now I obviously have to restart my scrubber from scratch. It seemed to have done the trick though. I will let you know if there is any change.

[SantaMonica]

Any scrubber that was overtaken by dino's was very under-lit.

Every properly built and operated scrubber knocks out dino's first, and gha second.

[Nick28]

As long time viewer of this forum its about time I registered.

I've been experimenting with dinos for a long time with my UAS. So far too much light absolutely causes them. I currently have a 10 watt cfl on a 25 sq inch screen and its growing green very well 3 inches away only on 9-10 hours a day!

Dinos also seem to become toxic under phosphate limitation as i've observed all fish dying when i added a phosphate remover or lack of feeding and slow scrubber growth basically drying the tank out of phosphate. There are also lots of published scientific articles that say this as well.

i've done tests with 10,13,15 and 23 watt cfls varying in closeness and hours. 23 watts caused the most dinos.

as far as hours and intensity go, theres a limitation to desired growth and too much energy for a given amount of time regardless of total hours with a UAS at least.

dinos can process higher light intensities.

[Garf]

Welcome Nick28 - interesting about the higher light intensities causing dinos. This fits into my research which suggests (to me) its the stuff in the algae exudate that can feed (or deter) dino's, obviously you get more of this at higher light intensities due to extra photosynthesis.

[Ace25]

Any scrubber that was overtaken by dino's was very under-lit.

Every properly built and operated scrubber knocks out dino's first, and gha second.

Another 100% completely FALSE statement.

[Nick28]

yea dinos seem to grow right on top of the green algae like a day after the bulb instensity is increased.

23 watt bulb on 12 hours, at an inch away had about 4 sq inches of green 1 per edge (it cut back the green that was growing with my first bulb the 13 watt one). The unlit side had a lot more green front was covered in dinos smelled really bad and the center was bald.

as i moved to lower intensities green started closing in on the center. Some type of brown hair is surrounding the center (center is green) but it is slowly fading with the current bulb. brown algae possible Diatoms are growing at edges of white box (off screen) and in the back. I think its good to have some diatoms growing in a controlled location though. coralline is growing fast in tank.



I will try and post pics tomorrow.

[Nick28]

Another 100% completely FALSE statement.

it can be really confusing sometimes, I'm just sharing what I observed with my UAS. A waterall scrubber may be different, varying N and P and silica (you cant have a lot of diatoms with low silica), light intensity, light time, light closeness, flow, and carbon delivery can change whats dominant i suppose.

Sometimes dinos would stray from my tank after blowing off corals and live in the uas for like a day or 2 and then fade away. They do seem to like high flow more than low flow.

[joelespinoza]

Any scrubber that was overtaken by dino's was very under-lit.

Every properly built and operated scrubber knocks out dino's first, and gha second.

Once again, this is simply not accurate. You think a proper scrubber gets rid of all dinoflagellate colonies? Here is a good example to prove how wrong simple statements like this are: all known photosynthetic corals are primarily fed by dinoflagellate symbionts. If a scrubber could somehow magically get rid of all dinoflagellate infestations, that means that it would also kill all photosynthetic corals. This is clearly not the case.

Dinoflagellates are a group of critters that covers the entire gambit of resource acquisition. Read this short blurb off wikipedia:

"The dinoflagellates...are a large group of flagellate protists. Most are marine plankton, but they are common in fresh water habitats, as well. Their populations are distributed depending on temperature, salinity, or depth. Many dinoflagellates are known to be photosynthetic, but a large fraction of these are in fact mixotrophic, combining photosynthesis with ingestion of prey.[1] Dinoflagellates are the largest group of marine eukaryotes aside from the diatoms..... Some species, called zooxanthellae, are endosymbionts of marine animals and play an important part in the biology of coral reefs. Other dinoflagellates are colorless predators on other protozoa, and a few forms are parasitic (see for example Oodinium, Pfiesteria). Some dinoflagellates produce resting stages, called dinoflagellate cysts or dinocysts, as part of their life cycles."

Photosynthetic, heterotrophic, mixotrophic, symbiotic, parasitic.... Quite a few dinoflagellates are attracted to light, and probably some of those can eat hair algae, or at least graze on it, some can probably do both at once, some can infect fish or corals if they are deprived of light, and some can just cyst up and hibernate for centuries at a time until conditions improve.

Long story short, you cant claim any one thing can kill all dinoflagellates, at least not anything that wont also kill every other living thing in the tank.

[Devs]

Long story short, you cant claim any one thing can kill all dinoflagellates, at least not anything that wont also kill every other living thing in the tank.

You mean like a skimmer :)

[Garf]

Started an Allelopathy thread a while go, but it was ignored. Still seems the most likely candidate to me. That also includes the apparent removal of display algae when running a scrubber, although the nutrient levels are not limiting.

Abstract
The effects of fresh thalli and culture medium filtrates from two species of marine macroalgae, Ulva pertusa Kjellm (Chlorophyta) andGracilaria lemaneiformis (Bory) Dawson (Rhodophyta), on growth of marine microalgae were investigated in co-culture under controlledlaboratory conditions. A selection of microalgal species were used, all being identified as bloom-forming dinoflagellates: Prorocentrumdonghaiense Lu sp., Alexandrium tamarense (Lebour) Balech, Amphidinium carterae Hulburt and Scrippsiella trochoide (Stein) Loeblich III.Results showed that the fresh thalli of either U. pertusa or G. lemaneiformis significantly inhibited the microalgal growth, or caused mortality at theend of the experiment. However, the overall effects of the macroalgal culture filtrates on the growth of the dinoflagellates were species-specific(inhibitory, stimulatory or none) for different microalgal species. Results indicated an allelopathic effect of macroalga on the co-cultureddinoflagellate. We then took P. donghaiense as an example to further assess this hypothesis. The present study was carried out under controlledconditions, thereby excluded the fluctuation in light and temperature. Nutrient assays showed that nitrate and phosphate were almost exhausted inG. lemaneiformis co-culture, but remained at enough high levels in U. pertusa co-culture, which were well above the nutrient limitation for themicroalgal growth, when all cells of P. donghaiense were killed in the co-culture. Daily f/2 medium enrichment greatly alleviated the growthinhibition on P. donghaiense in G. lemaneiformis co-culture, but could not eliminate it. Other environmental factors, such as carbonate limitation,bacterial presence and the change of pH were also not necessary for the results. We thus concluded that allelopathy was the most possible reasonleading to the negative effect of U. pertusa on P. donghaiense, and the combined roles of allelopathy and nutrient competition were essential for theeffect of G. lemaneiformis on P. donghaiense.

[SantaMonica]

You are forgetting that dino's inside of corals are fed ammonia from those corals; after all, they live inside the coral tissue. Not to mention that the coral controls the amount of light and water flow that those dino's get. The environment that those dino's live in has nothing to do with the environment that nuisance dino's live in. Matter of fact, the whole structure of a reef community is based on the pooling and recycling of nutrients within and between the coral tissues, coral branches, and neighboring corals. Comparing the environment of a coral dino to a nuisance dino is similar to comparing the environment of earth and space.

[Garf]

Ah well, ignored again. I suggest that if dino's disappear when your running a scrubber, great, the Allelopathic substances are deterring it. If they do not disappear when running a scrubber, or get worse, then the screen may be encouraging it. In this case you should try the tested methods for removal instead.

[Floyd R Turbo]

yea dinos seem to grow right on top of the green algae like a day after the bulb instensity is increased

When I was first starting my UAS test unit, this is precisely what I experienced. It took a long time for GHA to establish on the screen because dinos were rampant (in the UAS box)

[Nick28]

3838

no bubbles
3839

i forgot to take pics before cleaning it was only 4 days of growth the canvas was sort of hard to see this is 10 watts of cfl 9 to 10 hours 3 inches from screen.

mostly green but no dinos on screen, only in display.

i want to try the 15 watt one more time. to see the growth pattern

[Nick28]

ok, I already see were this is going dinos slimed up the screen mostly in the center. Dinos increased in DT corals look unhappy.

I rinsed the screen and siphoned out dinos. Now I want to try a 6500k 13 watt (best for refugiums)

I did some reading on how yellow light might inhibit chloryphyll or chloroplast formation in plants maybe it will do the same to green algae. 2700k bulbs are highest in the yellow orange area.

I know there are many many waterfall scrubbers that use 2700k and grow green well but, maybe gravity and high water flow create poor conditions for dinos to hold on.


which reminds me, when i first came to this site i was amazed at all the scrubber designs . I then started to build my own it was a 4x9 horizontal scrubber that fit nicely on the surface of my medium cpr fuge pump was rated for 144gph and the light was 7100k. bulb was 36 watts (bulb was a few months old) and 2.5 inches from the screen (some light was not directly over the screen though). The first thing to grow was green and only green.


Because i can't stop tinkering with s***. I bought a 3000k and upgraded the pump to 295 gph maxijet. within 3 days all green algae was gone. dinos grew on the screen, first time i ever had dinos.

Based on the spectral graph 6500k has less yellow-orange (dino's might be using this) a little less red, more green, blue and violet.

[Ace25]

Just an FYI, those are very generalized statements you are making about Kelvin. I can make a 2700k light that has no yellow in it, and make a 6700k light that is mostly yellow. So you can't go off Kelvin ratings alone, or at all for that matter. You have to look at the spectral graph because 2 2700k bulbs made by different mfg can have an entirely different spectral output, but still when combined equals that kelvin.

[Nick28]

Just an FYI, those are very generalized statements you are making about Kelvin. I can make a 2700k light that has no yellow in it, and make a 6700k light that is mostly yellow. So you can't go off Kelvin ratings alone, or at all for that matter. You have to look at the spectral graph because 2 2700k bulbs made by different mfg can have an entirely different spectral output, but still when combined equals that kelvin.

Yea I know
GE 2700k cfl vs GE 6500k cfl

38523853

thanks for the reminder looking at these charts again,
red is not that much lower on the 6500k but blue is significantly higher

(Edit again!) wait a sec the red spectrum in the 660nm section appears to be higher in the 6500k.

[Ace25]

Looking at those 2 graphs, honestly I would pick the 2700k, it looks to have more of the correct spectrums for photosynthesis (not much wasted energy on greens). Neither are ideal IMO but if I had to pick I would pick the 2700k based on those graphs. Notice how it peaks at 200 at 600nm for the 2700k but only peaks at 150 at 600nm for the 6500k.

[Nick28]

Looking at those 2 graphs, honestly I would pick the 2700k, it looks to have more of the correct spectrums for photosynthesis (not much wasted energy on greens). Neither are ideal IMO but if I had to pick I would pick the 2700k based on those graphs. Notice how it peaks at 200 at 600nm for the 2700k but only peaks at 150 at 600nm for the 6500k.


3855
according to this chart 600 is not good for green algae. 620 to 680 is.

Phycocyanin has a peak there which is good for cyano (maybe dinos as well).

it doesn't matter though i need to try something different and adjusting the light seems to change results.

so trying a completely different specrtrum may work

[Floyd R Turbo]

I know there are many many waterfall scrubbers that use 2700k and grow green well but, maybe gravity and high water flow create poor conditions for dinos to hold on.

There might be some truth to this. However I did get a fair amount of dino growth on my vertical screen for some time. I think it was related to the food mainly. One of these days I will make a compilation of observed patterns. Dino on top of a waterfall is a dark slimy layer that rinses away easily and has a distinct smell when the water is not running over it. I get zero of this under LED but I used to get a lot under T5HO. The waterfall dinos are probably a stronger strain. The UAS dinos (at least initially) were easily detached when the bubbles were stopped then started again.

[Nick28]

ok well judging by this graph no wonder i couldn't get green to become dominant i was using a feit electric

feit electrical spectral output 2700k3857
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/8/aafeature
theres like almost nothing green algae can use from this bulb:mad:

i made a mistake with the bulb im using now the 6500k although the 10 watt was GE the rest were FEIT electric

im using a sylvania 6500k micro twist 13 watt http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/CF048_bare%20CFLi.0deb804f-fcc7-4c30-8201-6ccabf63d365.pdf 6500k is at the bottom

not impressed either:eek: but maybe the blue side will do something

[SantaMonica]

All these bulbs were used for years on waterfalls with good results.

[Nick28]

All these bulbs were used for years on waterfalls with good results.

i've been having the best results with the lowest wattage but best spectrum GE 10 watt on a 25 inch screen UAS

if the 6500k doesn't work. The GE reveal looks good its a cfl with a lot of red.3858

waterfall designs once established give a poor substrate to dinos thats my guess.

[Ace25]

That 'GE Reveal' bulb is the best looking CFL bulb/spectrum I have seen for photosynthesis, and it isn't even designed for that purpose. Anyone with a CFL scrubber want to test those bulbs and report? I am very curious, and optimistic, to see the results from them.

[Nick28]

That 'GE Reveal' bulb is the best looking CFL bulb/spectrum I have seen for photosynthesis, and it isn't even designed for that purpose. Anyone with a CFL scrubber want to test those bulbs and report? I am very curious, and optimistic, to see the results from them.

I definitely will try it in a few days. 6500k is doing ok its only been 2 full days. Some dinos though.
Theres a thread on reefcentral
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1619925&highlight=dinoflagellates&page=2

on page 3 a member states dinos have a C:N:P ratio of 3000/19/1

a lot of people are getting blooms under what appears to be phosphate limitation below .01 some people are adding phosphate and its going away!

This is what I have in the display although its a little deeper brown probably because of a different spectrum (not my tank in pics)
38653866

Floyd-when you had dinos on your UAS screen did they grow in your display?

not feeding enough could be my problem. At one point I was limited in something as caulerpa and chaeto were not growing and pods were not present in my fuge (not iron though I dose it once in awhile) dinos still persisted even with phosguard

combine that with the fact that my coraline is growing very fast I may be phosphate limited. Halimeda is even growing out of my rocks never saw that before.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Floyd-when you had dinos on your UAS screen did they grow in your display?

Honestly I can't recall - but I don't think so.

[Nick28]

2.5 days under 6500k 13 watt 10 hours

26 sq inch screen 6.5 x 4 3 inches away from screen
3869

[Nick28]

5.5 days less green brown increased in center from higher wattage or poor spectrum.

I got a GE reveal cfl 15 watts http://www.sears.com/g-e-lighting-g-e-lighting-63508-ge-reveal-15-watt-bright-from-the-start-cfl-bulb/p-SPM6251014103?pageInd=product&PRODUCT_TITLE_BRAND=g-e-lighting-g-e-lighting-63508-ge-reveal-15-watt-bright-from-the-start-cfl-bulb&currentProductTitle=g-e-lighting-g-e-lighting-63508-ge-reveal-15-watt-bright-from-the-start-cfl-bulb&prdNo=7&isSEOCanonURL=true&catgroupId=SPM6251014103&catalogId=12605&blockType=G7&storeId=10153&partNumber=SPM6251014103&blockNo=7&i_cntr=1359151403000

the way this bulb is built the spread will be more even. But due to the higher wattage i'm pulling it back to 5 inches.

[Enigma84]

I would like to thank Santa Monica for the advice. After increasing the light to my scrubber, on his advice, I got a dino plague which if I'm honest, I was quite annoyed. After clearing the screen every few days, for a few weeks I have five times the depth of growth and a lot tougher hair algae. I'm running 17 x 3w 660nm and 2 x royal blue 3w per side on a 10" x 8" screen. I am very happy with the extra growth and think Santa Monica seems to know what works. Tip top. Thought I'd play devils advocate. Cheers buddy