The new Upflow Algae Scrubber (UAS)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah but that defeats the purpose of the screen staying submerged when you lose power. The system would back-siphon and empty the box.

[Othello]

Yeah but that defeats the purpose of the screen staying submerged when you lose power. The system would back-siphon and empty the box.

wouldnt the risk be similar in top-bottom flows as well? in the event of a power outage (and we get LOTS of them in here) and by the time the generators have powered on, the box would have drained by the action of gravity...right? or am I missing somehting?

[Jason]

Yeah but that defeats the purpose of the screen staying submerged when you loose power. The system would back-siphon and empty the box.

If the pump stays submerged and the exit tube as well, there will be no back syphon at all.
As no air can get in it :)


PS:

Look at this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=likPrEnWi9A&feature=relmfu

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah I saw that one a week or so ago

Mine is a UAS

Waterfall scrubbers will inherently drain and dry out on an extended power outage or pump clog (which happened to me once). With a submerged screen this cannot happen.

Maybe you're talking about something else, but with a box above the tank or sump and a pump feeding it, if the outlet from the pump into the scrubber box is at the bottom of the box, when the power goes off the flow will gravity feed back down through the feed hose and drain the box. This is why my pump outlet is at the top above the water level. There's zero chance of the screen drying out. The power would have to be out for 3 days before the screen starts to die.

Now if you're talking about a box that sits beside the sump, then on power outage the water level would equalize.

[Jason]

No, i'm talking about having the "box UAS thingy" sitting above the sump level (it's ugly to have stuff around a nice looking tank).

If the pump feeding it is below water level, and the hose coming back down from the "box UAS thingy" is below water as well it will not drain.
Of course it needs to be a sealed "box UAS thingy" .......

[RkyRickstr]

Hey guys as far as reflective materials.. what are we talking about.. mirrors?.. whats reef safe?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Jason, you are missing something here. If you have a box that sits on top of a sump, with the pump in the sump and the outlet for that pump at the bottom of a box that sits on top of the sump, such that the water is fed into the bottom of the box and exits/drains out the top, when you cut the power to the pump the water has no choice but to drain out through the supply hose. There's just no other way around it, unless you out a check valve in place, or unless you have the feed pipe go up over the top edge of the box and down to the bottom, then add a siphon break.

If you do as you just described, there's just no other conclusion.

If you had a "sealed" box for your UAS, you wouldn't be able to pump water into it because there would be no exit. If there was an exit, air would get sucked back in through the exit, unless the exit line was underwater in the sump as well. But then the air from the venturi would cause this and that and whatever. Your logic is completely failing me.

[alargoen]

It came into my mind before! You worked it out, amazing!

[kotlec]

Jason

No need to seal anything. Both inlet and outlet has to be made in upper part of box. Nothing in the bottom.
To make flow on screen to go upwards you will need to add one bafle at the inlet end. Done.

[Jason]

Jason, you are missing something here. If you have a box that sits on top of a sump, with the pump in the sump and the outlet for that pump at the bottom of a box that sits on top of the sump, such that the water is fed into the bottom of the box and exits/drains out the top, when you cut the power to the pump the water has no choice but to drain out through the supply hose. There's just no other way around it, unless you out a check valve in place, or unless you have the feed pipe go up over the top edge of the box and down to the bottom, then add a siphon break.

If you do as you just described, there's just no other conclusion.

If you had a "sealed" box for your UAS, you wouldn't be able to pump water into it because there would be no exit. If there was an exit, air would get sucked back in through the exit, unless the exit line was underwater in the sump as well. But then the air from the venturi would cause this and that and whatever. Your logic is completely failing me.

OK, so I guess I badly express my self, and it's pretty obvious to understand......

So read carefully what I say:

http://osmosisaquariums.gr/images/stories/2.jpg

LOL I did not say much actually :)

I this easyier to picture ? instead of a U shaped tube, you have a sealed box with the entry point connected to a pump, below water level in the sump, and the exit comes down below water level in the sump as well.........it will NEVER empty as air cannot go in, SIMPLE.

As for the bubbles, they will stop being produced as the same time the pump stups, because the pump + venturi is making them.

[Jason]

Very crude Paint drawing to explain my idea....... "sealed" upflow air scrubber (pump has venturi) and the algae will stay in water with a loss in electricity.


2213

[mess7777]

taggin along, this should be interesting.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I get it, I'm just saying there's no way the box won't empty. You would have to seal it with silicone or something, or a rubber gasket and locking flange like on a reactor. Plus then how are you going to get into it to clean and service the screen? As for air not getting into the box - airstone/venturi! You're going to be constantly blowing air into the box, then when you lose power the water will I guarantee drain out because the water is heavier and will just end up creating a vacuum unless the box is always devoid of air.

[Jason]

That is why I was saying "SEALED" with a gasket under the lid held down by some nylon screws.
As for the bubbles they'll be flushed out with the water flow.If there is no flow there is no point doing this in a sealed box outside of the tank or sump no ?

And I did not say at anytime an airstone, just venturi.

There will be a "layer" of air at the top, for sure, but the screen will definitely stay in water.

For the vacuum forming, it's kind of "non measurable" as both sides are connected to the same water level and it will balance.
Of course if this thing is a couple of meters above the water line that's an other story :)

[kotlec]

No way this would be easier than "old" style.

[SantaMonica]

Is there anything else to expect to come out tomorrow

No, one new thing per month.


mirrors?.. whats reef safe?

Plastic mirrors seem to be ok. Any metallic chemicals would probably be absorbed by the algae.

[Jason]

No way this would be easier than "old" style.

I agree, but if it's more efficient why not ?

And it's just an idea anyway.

And it's just the assumption of "the water will drain out no matter what " that upsets me, and according to our current laws of physics about pressure equilibrium in fluids it will not drain.

So, finish for me about this "single brain storming" development idea.

[kerry]

No way this would be easier than "old" style.
I had an in tank test unit going in less then three minutes after I rounded up the parts. No if I can just get it to grow algae LOL. I got my SW HOB unit growing algae and my FW is trying to but my pleco really likes it.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I guess if you sealed it perfectly, including all bulkheads/etc, thumbscrews, etc that it might work. I still think though that with a pocket of air at the top, your box it going to at least partially drain, and if the seal isn't 100% then the only time you will find out is when the power goes out. If there's a slight leak in the seal, and the box is running, the water level won't be affected because the excess air would just get pushed out by pressure and water would go down the drain. When the power goes out, your box drains.

Also I just thought of this. If you have a 100% sealed box with a drain at the top, and you push in an air/water mixture, you're going to create an air pocket at the top. This air must go somewhere if you want to continue with flow through the box. With the box sealed, there is only one place for this air to go: down the drain. Your drain is not going to be full of water, it will be full of air, as the air will never get fully purged from the box.

Eventually, the air in the box would collect and pressurize and one of two things would happen: The air would get pushed down the drain pipe and "blurp" out every once in a while (during which time, little water would flow) or the box would get "airlocked". This is what happens to household sump pumps when they are improperly plumbed (I know). The pump pushing the water ends up fighting air compression, and cannot pump any more water. To minimize the risk of airlock, you would need to terminate the drain pipe just below the sump water level. The problem here is that when you lose power, the drain pipe is mostly air and this will try to suck up water as the pressure in the box drops from the water wanting to fall. This will cause a rapid suction up the drain pipe and if there's air anywhere near that termination point, it's going to suck it in until the water level in the drain pipe is at the level in the box and a balance is achieved. So to minimize that, you have to terminate the drain lower in the water, but then you run into airlock.

The solution to this would probably be to snake an airline down the drain pipe all the way to the sump, so that the air had a lower-pressure route to escape when this situation arises. I'm not sure that would work or not, but it makes sense.

I still think that it's more trouble than it would be worth to make a sealed box than it would just to do what I did, which is just pump it into the top and use an airstone. You could also just put in a check valve to prevent backflow instead of sealing the box and relying on that. But, either way, you're relying on something functioning properly to prevent the box from draining.

[DennisC]

OK, so I guess I badly express my self, and it's pretty obvious to understand......

So read carefully what I say:

http://osmosisaquariums.gr/images/stories/2.jpg

LOL I did not say much actually :)

I this easyier to picture ? instead of a U shaped tube, you have a sealed box with the entry point connected to a pump, below water level in the sump, and the exit comes down below water level in the sump as well.........it will NEVER empty as air cannot go in, SIMPLE.

As for the bubbles, they will stop being produced as the same time the pump stups, because the pump + venturi is making them.

That looks remarkably like a Tunze overflow box to me.

Dennis

[DennisC]

I didn't see the second page going when I wrote that...

All great ideas but I have a feeling after a year of working on various designs, you're going to see these ideas released in a few months. Doesn't mean you can't build one now.

FYI this is my build and you'll probably be seeing a thread on it soon

2208

2209

2210

Apart from the water pipes, that is exactly the same as my Ats

[Floyd R Turbo]

So what are ya saying Dennis? LOL

I came up with this general box design (1/4" black acrylic light blocking on all 4 sides extending out from the core center) over a year ago, but never started building them because 1) I was too busy and 2) screen sizing guidelines changed and 3) I got hinted about the new design so I held off. This is my type-I L2 scrubber box converted to a type-II. It nearly completely blocks the LED light with the lid on. On the tank, with the room dark, my monitor on my PC outshines it 20 to 1 easily.

2215

2217

2216

The side outlet is standard on the type-I box (emergency drain), I just didn't drill the bottom drain and I sealed over the slot tube notches, drilled a hole for the pump input, and a hole for the airline through the lid.

[DennisC]

Great minds think alike mate.
The only difference is that my box is 18" long to allow it to rest on the sump dividers, but I did drill 2 drain holes in the base

Dennis

[submersible]

Anyone have any pics of a uas in action?

[SantaMonica]

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?17-The-new-Upflow-Algae-Scrubber-(UAS)

[jacob.morgan78]

Okay, is this what we were waiting on for May 1? Is there anything else to expect to come out tomorrow?

This is great! Do you clean this in the same way as the old ats? (with tap water and everything?)

Bump.

I'm curious because I want to start planning for my first scrubber and don't know exactly what to go with because of all the ideas floating around.

[srusso]

Bump.

I'm curious because I want to start planning for my first scrubber and don't know exactly what to go with because of all the ideas floating around.

Yes, its a little confusing for some b/c the dates are weird. A few of us got plans a month early for testing. This is the new scrubber design, very much in a testing phase right now. Your looking at the "Upflow Algae Scrubber" or UAS...

[SantaMonica]

Why not just do a test tank to start with.

[RkyRickstr]

I think I'm picking up a 5g tank.. light it up from both sides... and drill an over flow.. done!...

Any specs on how close the spotlights have to be to the scrubber?..

[SantaMonica]

None yet. I believe however that lights will be able to be placed closer, with higher power, but we'll have to see.

[Floyd R Turbo]

on mine, the screen drifted in the box so it's literally right against the acrylic with the LEDs 1" or less away. No difference in growth between the sides. After the screen starts, it's looking like you can put the lights as close as you want which is very interesting.

[Othello]

on mine, the screen drifted in the box so it's literally right against the acrylic with the LEDs 1" or less away. No difference in growth between the sides. After the screen starts, it's looking like you can put the lights as close as you want which is very interesting.

what about having around 20cm distance from the light? in a previous post I was thinking of placing the UAS on the sump dividers and let it dangle in the water in the middle chamber of the sump...lights would have to be at both sides of the sump as per the drawing :

2226 (this is a top view of my sump)

does anyone think it would be an issue? I guess lighting power would have to be increased....so the watt per sq in rule might need to be adapted a little??

[Othello]

what about having around 20cm distance from the light? in a previous post I was thinking of placing the UAS on the sump dividers and let it dangle in the water in the middle chamber of the sump...lights would have to be at both sides of the sump as per the drawing :

2226 (this is a top view of my sump)

does anyone think it would be an issue? I guess lighting power would have to be increased....so the watt per sq in rule might need to be adapted a little??

I found this table on another site (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/105774-par-vs-distance-t5-t12-pc-2.html)

2230

I will try to use this to work out the best lighting distance....algae experts out there, is it safe to assume that algae and plants share the same lighting needs?

[kotlec]

You try and tell us :)
Unfortunately no LEDs on this chart.

[SantaMonica]

The biggest variable is probably the spreading of the light without reflectors; not the amount of water it has to go though. If you used lenses it might help. Just make it change-able. Also, covering as much surface with reflectors as possible, including the top, would help.

[whites]

just a thought... but look at the light reflecting on the top of the water....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv4G6xCOkao&feature=relmfu

maybe these could be custom made

[whites]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-Fish-Tank-White-12-LED-110V-220V-Airstone-Bubbler-LED-Lights-Lighting-/160782831062?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item256f674dd6

sorry should of added this one too..

[RkyRickstr]

hey guys quick question... obviously the easiest way to do this while we wait for the prettier ones is to do a one sided screen right.. so double the streen area. double the watts on one side.. and done. you have the same size scrubber as before.. am I right?

[dtyharry]

That sounds logical!

[Othello]

That sounds logical!

i think there is an issue with single sided screens and roots not beibg abke to attach furmly enough. at least this is what I understood ...

[jaczal]

And why not give air to the water flowing from the top of the screen. I just plugged pomke - so far without dice aerators - and the effect is great. Water flows down the screen foamed.
And this is my box, screen and lighting - LED current on the tapes smd5060. The whole works without problems for almost 1.5 years.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EETB7--LUsvGhe3GkeDCudMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directli nk
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dyiUdtDyolT4l4AdpzltXtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ED7oAUQPEV_EygqgM8mzuNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

[jbowser]

Hello everybody,

This is my first post here, I currently have a 6 month old 5g tank with just a small internal filter and a powerhead as means of filtration.
I'm currently gathering ideas and equipment for my 15g tank and I would really like to keep it as simple as possible so I want to give the new ats design a shot!
Currently I have 3 designs utilizing the uas principle:

1) I call it "intank uas"
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/intankuas.jpg

This is the simplest and smallest design I could think of.
It is just a small box for the screen, either lit by the display light or through the glass with leds.
A small pump should be used to feed the scrubber with nutrient rich water.

2) slim HOB uas.
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/HOBuas1.jpg
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/HOBuas2.jpg

This design has a pump in a small overflow box and the water flows through the uas much like it would in a regular HOB filter.
The Hob filter should be designed to accommodate a heater so the dt is less cluttered.

3) less slim HOB uas.
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/HOBuas4.jpg
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/HOBuas3.jpg

Pretty much the same as design 2, but the overflow box is just larger and could house a heater.
The screen box is just way smaller then design 2.

Some more info about this build:
either a 10x10cm screen (4x4") or a 7,5x10cm screen (3x4").
Will lit it with a diy 9x1W led fixture (6x 660nm, 2x 630nm and 1x 460nm).

All input is welcome!

Jb

[Garf]

Air flowing down the screen, on a submerged screen !

Do you mean this http://http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1838-Co2-turbo (http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1838-Co2-turbo)

If not, please explain how you do it.

[SantaMonica]

I like them :)

[jbowser]

Thanks! I didn't really knew if I should post it here, but I guess I should have :P

I'm closely following Doompie's progress, because we both live in Holland.
He has given me some pointers and ideas which I took into consideration with my own designs.

One of the goals I hope to be able to accomplish is having a pair of mandarins in this tank, so I sure hope that the uas will house lots and lots of pods!

Jb

[SantaMonica]

An interesting test would be to let the mandarins into the screen area; they would not eat the algae, but would target the pods.

[Garf]

Perhaps just let them into a small portion of the screen.

[jbowser]

That is an interesting thought, but how could I do that? the only option I see is putting the screen in the display before a cleaning.
All other options would stress the fish or cause problems with light spilling (I'm biased towards option 3 right now).

Jb

[SantaMonica]

I was thinking of an all-mandarin tank. Otherwise the other fish will eat the algae, like my tetra who has found a home there.

[MorganAtlanta]

#1 may not need the pump since the current generated by the airstone should circulate water. That's pretty much the design I'm going to try, when I get the time...
You might want to put a lid on the designs to control salt creep. All those bursting bubbles will create a mess if there is no top.

[Garf]

You will probably find you don't need to expose the screen at all. I had a mandarin for 5 years. If you have a supply, ie an algal screen, the pods will proliferate and survive in your rocks for long enough to feed this beautiful fish. A supply of fresh pods to the display is the key. Considering your on an algae site, your probably gonna be ok.

[Doompie]

Welcome here :D

As stated before, I like your designs very much. Well though off and I think will perform..Too add a lid seems like a good idea.

[jbowser]

I was thinking of an all-mandarin tank. Otherwise the other fish will eat the algae, like my tetra who has found a home there.

Yeah I was thinking a pair of blue mandarins or lsd mandarins and a couple of pretty inverts.


#1 may not need the pump since the current generated by the airstone should circulate water. That's pretty much the design I'm going to try, when I get the time...
You might want to put a lid on the designs to control salt creep. All those bursting bubbles will create a mess if there is no top.

I left that out of the rendering ;) Also a small hole in that lid should reduce the noise of the bubble a lot!


You will probably find you don't need to expose the screen at all. I had a mandarin for 5 years. If you have a supply, ie an algal screen, the pods will proliferate and survive in your rocks for long enough to feed this beautiful fish. A supply of fresh pods to the display is the key. Considering your on an algae site, your probably gonna be ok.

What do you mean with an algae site?

Jb

[Garf]

This site, ie an "algae site" obviously has people interested in algae scrubbers. Algae scrubbers are a haven for juvenile copepods, these then get dispersed throughout the system to feed delicate eaters like mandarin.

[kerry]

I let my screens set in my 10G before I clean them because I have a mandarin in that tank that is fat an happy now. Nice designs to, I made a HOB but am battling the bubbles, I like your way of sorting out the bubbles, I was going to put mine in a sump with baffles.

[jaczal]

Exactly! Had not noticed your topic. It seems that this would enhance the growth of algae.
Sorry for the spelling, but I use Google translator.

[jbowser]

And why not give air to the water flowing from the top of the screen. I just plugged pomke - so far without dice aerators - and the effect is great. Water flows down the screen foamed.
And this is my box, screen and lighting - LED current on the tapes smd5060. The whole works without problems for almost 1.5 years.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EETB7--LUsvGhe3GkeDCudMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directli nk
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dyiUdtDyolT4l4AdpzltXtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ED7oAUQPEV_EygqgM8mzuNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

How are those leds working for you? I was only able to find 630nm leds like that...
For my design a slim light fixture is essential.

Jb

[jaczal]

@jbowser I am white 3000K. Also, I can not buy 660nm. I did tests with red tape (630nm) and blue (430nm), but were not satisfactory. I used the tape because of the simplicity of the structure. Lighting panel located in the depths of my 15mm. A box thus has a width of 110mm.

[jbowser]

@jbowser I am white 3000K. Also, I can not buy 660nm. I did tests with red tape (630nm) and blue (430nm), but were not satisfactory. I used the tape because of the simplicity of the structure. Lighting panel located in the depths of my 15mm. A box thus has a width of 110mm.

So how many leds are you using and how big is your screen? I guess these leds have a few advantages over hp leds, although its a shame they don't have more wavelengths...

Jb

[jaczal]

300 LED Strip, 150 per page. Two 170mm on 90mm screens. Yes, the basic advantage is simplicity of design lighting panel and requires no heat sinks.

[Othello]

300 LED Strip, 150 per page. Two 170mm on 90mm screens. Yes, the basic advantage is simplicity of design lighting panel and requires no heat sinks.

jaczal can you please post a pic of those LED strips? I have seen some strips at the local Hard Ware store and was wondering if they are the same and can be used...the ones I saw need no sink and come in a long strip that can be cut to length and powered up by souldering powr cable to two spots...

[jbowser]

I believe he has 3528 ledstrips, there are also 5050 ledstrips.
They can be powered by any 12V walltransformer (if the wattage is sufficient off course).
As far as I know there are 2 version of these strips, 60 leds per meter or 120 leds per meter and they can always be cut per 3 leds (so either 5cm length or 2,5cm length).

Some specs I've found on a 120 leds per meter strip:
Color temp: 2400-2700K
Flux: 800 lumens per meter
Power: 9,6W per meter

I think these leds would do a great job, because instead of lets say 9 1W leds I could have 120 0,08W leds, they loose lumens wise but beat the hell out of hp leds if you look at spread and if they are placed as close as possible to the screen they should be good. The disadvantage is that they don't come in the exact wavelengths we would use with hp leds...

Jb

Ps. here is a pic of a small fixture I tried on a 1g tank.
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/e5737b4c.jpg
Those are 3528 leds and 60 leds per meter.

[Othello]

I believe he has 3528 ledstrips, there are also 5050 ledstrips.
They can be powered by any 12V walltransformer (if the wattage is sufficient off course).
As far as I know there are 2 version of these strips, 60 leds per meter or 120 leds per meter and they can always be cut per 3 leds (so either 5cm length or 2,5cm length).

Some specs I've found on a 120 leds per meter strip:
Color temp: 2400-2700K
Flux: 800 lumens per meter
Power: 9,6W per meter

I think these leds would do a great job, because instead of lets say 9 1W leds I could have 120 0,08W leds, they loose lumens wise but beat the hell out of hp leds if you look at spread and if they are placed as close as possible to the screen they should be good. The disadvantage is that they don't come in the exact wavelengths we would use with hp leds...

Jb


I think that these are the leds they have altho havent checked the specs yet...will do so during the week...and will try to take some pictures

[thatgrimguy]

Is the new UAS more efficient than the old design or just easier to build Is there any reason to tear apart my SM100s and convert them?

[mess7777]

Is the new UAS more efficient than the old design or just easier to build Is there any reason to tear apart my SM100s and convert them?

This seems to be very much in testing mode still. I wouldn't rip down your existing one....if it ain't broke don't fix it!

[thatgrimguy]

This seems to be very much in testing mode still. I wouldn't rip down your existing one....if it ain't broke don't fix it!

That's what I figured. Just wanted to hear someone else say it too!

[kerry]

Is the new UAS more efficient than the old design or just easier to build Is there any reason to tear apart my SM100s and convert them?
Hello Grim,
Its nice to see you over here. As mentioned there is still testing going on still for this design. I would keep your SM100 intact for now. You could DIY a test unit on a different tank if you have one.
Looks like Master Yoda should have his finished up pretty soon. I think he is doing the waterfall design.
Kerry.

[thatgrimguy]

Hello Grim,
Its nice to see you over here. As mentioned there is still testing going on still for this design. I would keep your SM100 intact for now. You could DIY a test unit on a different tank if you have one.
Looks like Master Yoda should have his finished up pretty soon. I think he is doing the waterfall design.
Kerry.

Kerry!

I figured with it all in and working it wouldn't make sense to swap. I do need to replumb mine though. I'm not getting nearly enough flow to it and the micro bubbles in the tank are driving me mad. Time for a new plumbing scheme. But, I figured if I was going to do all that, it may make sense to wait and see the new design.

Once a good way to make this look good in DT is established, I'll add one to the 150g I have at my business that is sump less.

[SantaMonica]

Overall I'd say to consider upflows and waterfalls chemically the same. Later on we can see if the bubble/carbon delivery of the upflows really do fix the limiting carbon issue.

[Floyd R Turbo]

So by that are you saying that the bubbles might reduce the scrubber's tendency to suck up bicarbonate when CO2 is lacking, since it is getting CO2 from the bubbles? I dose Alk like crazy and it is disproportionate to Cal so I know it's the scrubber. I think it was Ace or Kerry that got better growth just by putting a fan on the screen so it seems that blowing air into the slot tube on the waterfall scrubber would reduce bicarbonate uptake as well.

[SantaMonica]

Totally.

[Garf]

So by that are you saying that the bubbles might reduce the scrubber's tendency to suck up bicarbonate when CO2 is lacking, since it is getting CO2 from the bubbles? I dose Alk like crazy and it is disproportionate to Cal so I know it's the scrubber. I think it was Ace or Kerry that got better growth just by putting a fan on the screen so it seems that blowing air into the slot tube on the waterfall scrubber would reduce bicarbonate uptake as well.

Floyd R Turbo - please look at post 272

[joelespinoza]

Totally.

This is when we know SM was replaced by a 19 year old valley girl.

[kerry]

This is when we know SM was replaced by a 19 year old valley girl.
Thats Totally Funny!!!! Love it.
I get the same Floyd. I thought about trying the fan but my 40G is an open top and I already top off at LEAST 1/2 gallon a day. Maybe I could try to add a hose to the feed pipe to the slot pipe like a power head has and pull air in that way.

[greenmachine]

what about dealing with bubbles? any air stone bubbles would be a pain to remove in a saltwater set up. especially if in the display. or am i missing something?

[whites]

What would benifit from the air injection the most? Air direct to the roots or the leaf? and what part is actually taking up the nutrients?

The reason I say this is if you could run the bubbles up the center of the canvas essentially having 2 back to back but with a gap. say the distance of pvc pipe (Floyd style) at the bottom where the air is exiting the stone or possible direct from the tubing with pin holes (pending on what size bubbles are more benificial). With the top of the canvas actually joining or an even smaller gap say half of whats at the bottom like a chimney / \

[kerry]

what about dealing with bubbles? any air stone bubbles would be a pain to remove in a saltwater set up. especially if in the display. or am i missing something?
Your not missing nothing. I am trying to deal with micro bubbles in my HOB test unit. The HOB has venturi air injection that creates micro bubbles like a skimmer. I might have to not use this feature and put air stones at the bottom instead.

[jwoyshnar]

Got mine put together last night. My bubbler and screen is mounted right above the slotted pipe I have coming from my overflow. Plenty of bubbles/flow going across the screen. It's lit by a 100 watt cfl for now til I build a led fixture for it.

[jacob.morgan78]

First, I've never had an algae scrubber of any type and have a one year old "typical" reef tank. I plan to keep my skimmer running at first but have it on a timer to only run during a certain time of day. I would eventually phase it out hopefully. I also have the typical reactors: GFO, GAC. I would phase out GFO but keep running carbon more than likely. I currently have a stand alone 10 gallon refugium with some LR, chaeto, and gracilaria... no sand. It's fed with a small MJ style pump and drains to my sump into the return section, skipping the skimmer. The UAS would go into the stand alone refugium. At first, what time a day do you think would be best to schedule my skimmer to be on? and for how long?

Now to my plan for the UAS. I'm trying to decide between two ideas. First, I could just use the airstone and tie the screen to it very similar to Scott's pictures here: Thanks Scott! http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1904-Scott26-s-UAS-Test

My second idea would be to feed my refugium with a MJ1200 with the venturi hose attached. The water/air output of the MJ would go through vinyl tubing to the bottom of my refugium. I would attach a small diameter (undecided on size) pvc to the vinyl tube. I would cut a slot in the pvc for the water/air to be pushed out of. I would attach the screen to the pvc (undecided on how) for the water/air to move up the screen. I'm also undecided on screen size and bulb wattage. The screen would be lit from behind the refugium and be one sided for now.

My main concern here is bubbles and salt creep. I plan to insert a thin, flexible piece of acrylic into my sump to act as a baffle before my drain. It would fit snuggly into the tank against each side and rise above the water line but not above the height of the tank. I'm also going to get a piece of glass cut to fit perfectly on top of my refugium above the section before the baffle (the only part that should have bubbles in it). This glass top should keep most (I hope) of the salt creep from getting out of the tank.

I would keep the rock in there along with the other macro algaes. I would expect the UAS to out-compete them for the nutrients and things would kind of take of themselves.

A couple of things. I have a one year old and my wife is less than thrilled with me spending a bunch of time with my tank (which I'm fine with because I'd rather spend time with the family anyway). What I'm getting at is don't expect this to move along very fast. I do what I can, when I can. And, I'm battling an issue with my Apex at the moment which demands my free time. Second thing, feel free to rip my ideas a new one!!! :-) I'm okay with constructive criticism and welcome it seeing how I'm new to algae scrubbers and not an expert (yet) on reef tanks :-)

Thanks for taking a look!!!

[SantaMonica]

Air direct to the roots or the leaf? and what part is actually taking up the nutrients?

Both. Any algae that grows needs turbulence, CO2, and light.

[jacob.morgan78]

First, I've never had an algae scrubber of any type and have a one year old "typical" reef tank. I plan to keep my skimmer running at first but have it on a timer to only run during a certain time of day. I would eventually phase it out hopefully. I also have the typical reactors: GFO, GAC. I would phase out GFO but keep running carbon more than likely. I currently have a stand alone 10 gallon refugium with some LR, chaeto, and gracilaria... no sand. It's fed with a small MJ style pump and drains to my sump into the return section, skipping the skimmer. The UAS would go into the stand alone refugium. At first, what time a day do you think would be best to schedule my skimmer to be on? and for how long?

Now to my plan for the UAS. I'm trying to decide between two ideas. First, I could just use the airstone and tie the screen to it very similar to Scott's pictures here: Thanks Scott! http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1904-Scott26-s-UAS-Test

My second idea would be to feed my refugium with a MJ1200 with the venturi hose attached. The water/air output of the MJ would go through vinyl tubing to the bottom of my refugium. I would attach a small diameter (undecided on size) pvc to the vinyl tube. I would cut a slot in the pvc for the water/air to be pushed out of. I would attach the screen to the pvc (undecided on how) for the water/air to move up the screen. I'm also undecided on screen size and bulb wattage. The screen would be lit from behind the refugium and be one sided for now.

My main concern here is bubbles and salt creep. I plan to insert a thin, flexible piece of acrylic into my sump to act as a baffle before my drain. It would fit snuggly into the tank against each side and rise above the water line but not above the height of the tank. I'm also going to get a piece of glass cut to fit perfectly on top of my refugium above the section before the baffle (the only part that should have bubbles in it). This glass top should keep most (I hope) of the salt creep from getting out of the tank.

I would keep the rock in there along with the other macro algaes. I would expect the UAS to out-compete them for the nutrients and things would kind of take of themselves.

A couple of things. I have a one year old and my wife is less than thrilled with me spending a bunch of time with my tank (which I'm fine with because I'd rather spend time with the family anyway). What I'm getting at is don't expect this to move along very fast. I do what I can, when I can. And, I'm battling an issue with my Apex at the moment which demands my free time. Second thing, feel free to rip my ideas a new one!!! :-) I'm okay with constructive criticism and welcome it seeing how I'm new to algae scrubbers and not an expert (yet) on reef tanks :-)

Thanks for taking a look!!!

Ooops, I'll copy this over once the actual build starts or is complete. My bad... Still let me know what you think though!!!

[greenmachine]

on reef tanks that use an overflow and sump,,,would it be possible to capture and re-direct the bubbles coming out of the drain,,,and use them to "feed" the upflow scrubber in the sump? almost like an up side down reverse durso? No airstone or pump required! see where i am going with this? We all have tons of flow AND bubbles coming out of our drains..........

[SantaMonica]

Yes. Taken care of :)

[vahegan]

Hi!
How often do you have to scrape the tank glass in front of the screen? Do you have to scrape the tank glass daily?

I mean, as soon as there is any algae growth on it, it'll have a huge impact, blocking the light falling on the screen. And as soon as there is any growth on the glass, it must be growing like crazy as the amount of light there is much higher than on the screen.

[Wopadobop]

Hi everyone. I have always been a proponent of turf scrubbers. and this new up flow thing has my diy juices flowing. Since I just started a new system and am not really using a skimmer or gfo reactor. What if i took the venturi pump off my skimmer and used that for an upflow? does it need the bubbles or are the bubbles just making the water flow up past the screen?
wouldn't that be a kick in the pants to the skimmer companies to take one apart and turn it into a scrubber :}

[Doompie]

Yes that would work, but it's just the air that is making the water flow, so just an air pump is more plancton/living food friendly..

[Floyd R Turbo]

I.E. I've got a patent on that LOL

[SantaMonica]

How often do you have to scrape the tank glass in front of the screen?

Just the same as the screen.


blocking the light falling on the screen

I've let it over-grow a few times, and the screen kept on going.


does it need the bubbles or are the bubbles just making the water flow up past the screen?

Needs the bubbles (air; CO2; carbon)

[Wopadobop]

I.E. I've got a patent on that LOL

so mixing the two (air, water) over a screen for an upflow is good? I don't want to build anything comercially just have very limited space in my sump and if I can use my skimmer for a clay pigeon than it would kill two birds with one stone(or shotgun shell)

[jbowser]

Hello all,

First of all I would highly recommend led-dna! I ordered 9 660nm leds about a week ago and I got them already! (less then a week from hong kong to europe!)
I thinking about ordering a dimmable driver so I could further fine tune the uas.

I'm aso considering going AIO, this is the simplest and best design I could come up with:
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/aiouas3.jpg
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/zenoah/aiouas.jpg

The compartment will be 5-8cm deep and will either be placed on one of the ends or on the back, depending on where I'm going to place the tank.

For now I'm still waiting for my tank to be completed..., but I know for sure that my light fixture is on its way!

Jb

[Garf]

I would definitely go for a dimmable set up so you don't risk over exposure.

[Techbiker]

I am very new at this alge escrubber, i went to some one house, and I almost went crazy to see the results that she achive with this system.
So since I am moving everything from my 55 gallon mix reef to a new 75 rimless I will give it a try, hope dont bother no one with my silly questions
First i have a pump for bubles that has 2 outputs, can i just added to a a pipe as in the picture above and if so how the wholes should go?
Second; if i dont close the end of the t the presure for the bubles will escape, or not

[kotlec]

jbowser,

How water will be moved through your filter setup? Do you expect air bubbles to move enough water ? Or you will be adding return pump ?
Your baffles could be improved if down section would be wider. You want water to go down very slowly to give time for bubbles to separate.
Function of last baffle is unclear for me too.

[jbowser]

jbowser,

How water will be moved through your filter setup? Do you expect air bubbles to move enough water ? Or you will be adding return pump ?
Your baffles could be improved if down section would be wider. You want water to go down very slowly to give time for bubbles to separate.
Function of last baffle is unclear for me too.

From left to right:
Water enters at the top, goes down through filtermedia.
Goes up through the uas, most bubbles will pop at the top, but some will go down with the water.
The last baffle forces the water to go up again for the last bubbles and on the bottom of compartment 3 A return pump will pump the water back to the dt.

Hope this makes any sense.

Jb

[kotlec]

Hope this makes any sense.

Jb

Absolutely

[fitopharmer]

I am really interested in the new UAS design. I have a few problems to overcome since the only place a scrubber will fit in my system is the sump. There is too much flow in the sump and all the electrical equipment is very close. I would like to add some salt spray protection and flow restriction to make the scrubber more effective and less messy. This is the first prototype I have come up with. Please forgive my poor sketch-up skills. I need some suggestions on how to proceed. :D
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q184/bcreefmaker/UASproto1.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q184/bcreefmaker/UASproto2.jpg
Are the air bubbles and sump flow in the bottom enough too keep the nutrients in the scrubber the same levels as the tank? Or will I have to have to add some flow into the box? I was thinking about a small 30-50 GPH supply line/pump if needed.
If the screen is going to be less then 12" square and the display tank is only 20G will four 10k leds work to light this? I would prefer these over red since there is often frags/corals ect in the sump.

[Ace25]

Nice design! I think if you put holes on the entire plate where the airstone sits on, not just the 3 holes you see in the picture, then it would be fine without an additional pump. What is the top hole for? Just to release gases? I think if you just stuck that in a sump and lit it on both sides (which seems to be one of the more difficult aspects to this UAS design) I think it would probably function properly.

Sadly, 10k LEDs are probably the worse color for growing algae. If your only choice was using white, I would pick a combo of warm to cool white, similar to red/blue, so if using 4 white LEDs, I would pick 3 warm white (to cover the red spectrum) and 1 cool white (to cover the blue).

[fitopharmer]

Yeah that is a good idea, or to go even further I guess I could just use 2 or 3 cross braces to hold up the airstone. That way there is the least amount of acrylic impeding the flow.

[Wopadobop]

So I was sitting in my living room with a sheet of screen in my hand and an idea struck me. Why am I thinking 2 dimensionally . BANG! I roll the screen into a tube. I think I may be on to something. So I grab an old skimmer I had laying around and pop the top off it. Drop the screen in.. progress. Tomorrow I will run to the local diy box store( home defunko or low e's) and finish the build with a sealed top. right now it is just using the old collection cup lid.

Some photos of the process. here is the tube of screen I made. This should in effect keep me from ever having to cut zip ties everytime i want to clean the screen and can be done with a brush.

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/stuffs003.jpg

In case you are wondering why I had random zip ties sticking out of the screen. I used the lock part for spacing to keep the screen off the plastic tube.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/stuffs004.jpg

The water level sits just at the top of the screen with no adjustments and the bubbles move up the whole section equally.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/stuffs006.jpg

A few things.
1) how do i light this design ? I was thinking led strips wound around the tube and dipped in liquid plastic. problems being if they burn out it would be a bitch to replace them and possibly heat.

2) I think I may need to remove the inner tube from the bubble plate as it is currently not exposing the bottom of the screen to I.M.O. enough bubbles. But it is late and My creative juices are leaking out of my head. So tomorrow perhaps.

Thoughts? Feelings? Bad good ugly doesn't matter . Just trying to get people thinking 3 dimensionally.

[gmoney243]

so is there an advantage to the UAS as oppose to waterfall style scrubbers? like mainly i mean growth and scrub power?

[jbowser]

@Wopadobop

I think your "3d" design is just complicating things more.
And even more if your gonna place the whole unit IN the tank or sump! Lighting should be waterproofed and be roubd, which should be fine if you used ledstrips but not so much if you want to use hp leds...

In my opinion 2d is the only easy way to go, but who knows maybe the algae will grow like mad in there!
Why not give a jbj fuge light a try? From inside the tube and leave the outside as is?

My 2ct ;)

Jb

[kerry]

The strip LED idea has been brought up before but the intensity/power of the light was questionable. Great idea, I use a HOB with an air venturi to put air to the scrubber. You can see the whole post of my HOB test here, its after SM's post: http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/freshwater-general-discussion/64795-lowest-cost-easiest-way-eliminate-green-hair-bubble-turf-slime-algae.html

[SantaMonica]

The circular version will work but is 1-sided unless you have lights on the inside and outside. If you can keep the screen 10 to 20 mm away from the plastic, it might help give growth room.


so is there an advantage to the UAS as oppose to waterfall style scrubbers?

Aside from the obvious mechanical advantages of being able to place it in the display or sump, and not needing a water pump, chemically it should have the advantage of not being limited by carbon/CO2, and being less limited by matting-down.

[SWhite]

I had seriously considered an ATS before but as I have a large amount of macro in my system,that I didn't want to lose, I chose to try vodka dosing. After several months of that my cyano and hair algae are no longer a problem buy not I have this creepy translucent stuff growing everywhere. So now I'm back to considering an ATS again instead of continually chasing my issues with vodka/biopellets,/ skimmer/etc.

My biggest issue is the amount of light. I'm assuming 120 square inches and 120w. But 120w seems like a massive amount of light. Plus I'm not eve sure how to get that much light in a 10" x 12" single sided area. Thoughts?

[jwoyshnar]

I had seriously considered an ATS before but as I have a large amount of macro in my system,that I didn't want to lose, I chose to try vodka dosing. After several months of that my cyano and hair algae are no longer a problem buy not I have this creepy translucent stuff growing everywhere. So now I'm back to considering an ATS again instead of continually chasing my issues with vodka/biopellets,/ skimmer/etc.

My biggest issue is the amount of light. I'm assuming 120 square inches and 120w. But 120w seems like a massive amount of light. Plus I'm not eve sure how to get that much light in a 10" x 12" single sided area. Thoughts?

The creepy stuff more than likely is a bacterial bloom. Be careful with that as it depletes the oxygen in your tank. I would stop dosing vodka now

[Garf]

Vodka's for drinkin' not for dosin'.

[SWhite]

The creepy stuff more than likely is a bacterial bloom. Be careful with that as it depletes the oxygen in your tank. I would stop dosing vodka now

I've been dialing it back for a couple of weeks now. I didn't want to suddenly stop using it as I don't want anything to spike in my system. Plus the weening period will give me time to get my ATS/UAS set up.

And I can't 'drink' so the vodka was just taking up space, heh.

[Garf]

Don't think your cheato tumbler would fair well with a scrubber if it's on the same system. If you can't decide to go ATS waterfall or UAS, personally UAS seems cheaper and easier if you haven't already spent loads of time setting up an ATS waterfall.

[SantaMonica]

My biggest issue is the amount of light. I'm assuming 120 square inches and 120w.

So far, recommendations are the same for UAS as with a waterfall: Based on feeding. Are you really feeding 10 cubes a day?

[SWhite]

Don't think your cheating tumbler would fair well with a scrubber if it's on the same system. If you can't decide to go ATS waterfall or UAS, personally UAS seems cheaper and easier if you haven't already spent loads of time setting up an ATS waterfall.
Oh I'm assuming that all of my macro will eventually die. But I'd rather have a healthier system than the macro. I'm looking to add a few more horses this summer and if my current system has issues keeping up with the current 4, 7 would cause real issues. I can go either way, ATS vs UAS, I've got a number of available spaces to set up either.

EDIT: I'll be giving away my macro when the times come so hopefully there won't be much left to die off.


So far, recommendations are the same for UAS as with a waterfall: Based on feeding. Are you really feeding 10 cubes a day?
I'd be aiming at a one sided screen with a likely 5 cube daily feedings after I get the additional horses.

EDIT the 2nd: I'm likely aiming at using LEDs, but I find humor in that I'd have more LEDS on the scrubber than I do over my 75g.

[jbowser]

EDIT the 2nd: I'm likely aiming at using LEDs, but I find humor in that I'd have more LEDS on the scrubber than I do over my 75g.

More watts on your scrubber then on your dt? you know you need like 1/6 of the watts if you go leds on a ats/uas?

Jb

[SWhite]

More watts on your scrubber then on your dt? you know you need like 1/6 of the watts if you go leds on a ats/uas?

Jb

Really? I had read it was 1/2. 1/6th would make it a no-brainer.

[SantaMonica]

Actually it's not really clear how much LED it would need. But I put 1/2 so that they could be run less hours if needed.

[Garf]

Have you got a rock / horse combo, would love to see pics of that.

[SWhite]

Have you got a rock / horse combo, would love to see pics of that.

Added link in my sig with pics.

[Garf]

Added link in my sig with pics.

Your rocks seem devoid of life. Is this a brand new set up? I think you need to do a UAS / ATS ASAP.

[SWhite]

Your rocks seem devoid of life. Is this a brand new set up? I think you need to do a UAS / ATS ASAP.

Tank has been up just shy of a year. Everything grows very slowly at my temps, so there is very little spread. As well I don't blast my tank with light as you would a reef tank as I just need illumination, not blind seahorses. Plus I don't have any SPS or LPS as they are potentially bad tank mates for seahorses. I don't supplement any Ca so the coraline grows very slowly as well. I trim back the macro regularly so it doesn't get out of control. So all that is left is softies, which grow slowly. But I've got 5 different types/colors of mushrooms, 2 different zoanthids, 6 different leathers, 6 different macro algae, 3 different anthelia and a couple patches of tiny clove polyps. EDIT and some GSP that is actually spreading fairly fast-ish. Lots of stuff, just doesn't grow real fast. Just added a quick full tank shot to the pics.

Sorry for derailing the thread. So would a happy medium be like 1/4 of the wattage in LEDs with the potential to dim or reduce light phase? Oh and I miss calculated, I have 84w in LEDs over the tank which would be less that the 120w of CFLs.

[Garf]

Tank has been up just shy of a year. Everything grows very slowly at my temps, so there is very little spread. As well I don't blast my tank with light as you would a reef tank as I just need illumination, not blind seahorses. Plus I don't have any SPS or LPS as they are potentially bad tank mates for seahorses. I don't supplement any Ca so the coraline grows very slowly as well. I trim back the macro regularly so it doesn't get out of control. So all that is left is softies, which grow slowly. But I've got 5 different types/colors of mushrooms, 2 different zoanthids, 6 different leathers, 6 different macro algae, 3 different anthelia and a couple patches of tiny clove polyps. EDIT and some GSP that is actually spreading fairly fast-ish. Lots of stuff, just doesn't grow real fast. Just added a quick full tank shot to the pics.

Sorry for derailing the thread. So would a happy medium be like 1/4 of the wattage in LEDs with the potential to dim or reduce light phase? Oh and I miss calculated, I have 84w in LEDs over the tank which would be less that the 120w of CFLs.

Even soft corals require calcium, they form spicules within their internal structure that forms their shape, these are formed from calcium. I think "stuff, just doesn't grow real fast." is something you need to pay attention to. This will be a problem for you long term unless you take action. Pretty sure horses use lots of calcium too, but don't quote me on that!

[SWhite]

Even soft corals require calcium, they form spicules within their internal structure that forms their shape, these are formed from calcium. I think "stuff, just doesn't grow real fast." is something you need to pay attention to. This will be a problem for you long term unless you take action. Pretty sure horses use lots of calcium too, but don't quote me on that!
You know before a bunch of life stuff happened, as of a few months ago, my numbers were low but acceptable. Hadn't tested in a while and thanks to your post I tested again and now my Ca and Mag are quite low...Ugh now something else I have to get squared away. Oh the life of a marine aquarist.

[Garf]

Glad to be of assistance

Start a new thread on horses with ATS/UAS.

[SWhite]

Glad to be of assistance

Start a new thread on horses with ATS/UAS.
Once I am ready start adding the equipment I'll create a progress thread.

[SWhite]

To help increase bubble contact on a single sided screen what about a slight tilt in the screen? It would seem to force contact while not giving up much in the difference of distance to the lights top to bottom. The heatsink would be where my LEDs would be.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/armorbimbo/tilted.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Yes, that's what I did with the CFL screen... it touches the glass at the front. Thick algae gets compressed, however. Also I had two tetra's get stuck there.

[Floyd R Turbo]

They got stuck in the algae mat?

[SWhite]

They got stuck in the algae mat?
I'm assuming that with the top against the glass the fish were caught in the upstream between the glass and screen.

[SantaMonica]

Yea they got pressed and stuck.

[Floyd R Turbo]

dumb tetras

[srusso]

SM, when are we going to get this months addition?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Nothing more until June

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1783-Availability-Schedule

[steve]

Ok, apologies in advance if this has been posted and trialled already but at 37 pages thats a lot of reading!!!:

I couldn't find a wooden airstone of any length in the UK, only the blue things which disintegrate after a short period in salt water and then I had a thought....why do I need an airstone, why don't I just cut a slot in the airline and slot the screen in there? Just trialled a very basic version and it seems to work just one side really well but I literally just threw the screen and airline in a jug of water as I don't have any airline long enough!

Since airline is plastic, all you need is a stanley knife and ruler to cut and cable ties to fix screen to airline similar to what you do with a standard waterfall design. My thought is to pass the airline through some PVC piping which will cause the airline to sink to the bottom of the sump

Has this already been tried?

Steve

[Floyd R Turbo]

I thought about doing that, kind of like the bubble walls. That's exactly what they use, just a piece of airline tubing with holes in it. I don't see why it would not work. You can get hard tubing in larger diameters too and could poke holes all over it with a hot pin or something. I sure would like to try that one of these days when I get any free time. Oh yeah, I don't get that. Darn!

[jnad]

I am using a pvc pipe with holes that i made with a needle.

Did also try to drill 1mm holes, but 1mm holes seemed to be a little to big, using a needle was making about the right size holes.

Have anybody tried the wooden air stones used in protein air skimmers? they make very small bubbles, could small bubbles be better than big bubbles?

[SantaMonica]

Or just put the screen into the slot in the tubing.

[jwoyshnar]

I have slots cut in my overflow pipe which my screen is attached.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't think he meant like in a waterfall scrubber, he's saying take a piece of the hard airline tubing and cut it lengthwise and just put the screen into the 'slot' created. Not PVC pipe slot hanging from above, airline tubing on the bottom.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh dang. You could just take flex hose airline tubing and slice it lengthwise. SM I think you just dropped a hint you hint dropper you

[SantaMonica]

Well actually I think that one was already posted a few days ago.

[jwoyshnar]

I knew what he meant. I have my pipe running down and across the bottom with the slots pointing upward. I get tons of air sucked down with the overflow that it's like a bubbler. I tried it first with the air stone and didn't need it. If slots are done right, you won't need a air stone, no pump needed and really nothing extra.

[greenmachine]

would cleaning the screen(above) be a PIA? what about having the air stone affixed to the bottom of a chamber and having a seperate screen that slides into a channel, when it's time to clean simply remove the top(cover) and pull the screen out?? wish I knew how to draw what I am thinking of:(

[glarior]

What about a soaker hose with an air tube going into it? Add a tight slot for the screen and supply air? I have not tired.. just thought about it a few minutes ago. What you think?

[SantaMonica]

They actually make hoses for underwater bubbling.

[vahegan]

Hi!
Can't find whether this has been answered yet: when I turn OFF the lights for 6 hours in an UAS setup, do I also turn down the air supply on the screen, or does the air turn ON all the time?

[kodiak66]

Hey.. Just thought if It will help you guys.. I was wondering if create a baffle say 3 inches width and length wherever you want, make the two baffles to be a triangle sicilione glue them on bottom of sump? be sure to included air stone inside the triangle, top of triangle are slightly open for needle canvas screen insert in the triangle.. that way it will control air bubbles swim upward straight sides of screen?
Just thought...

[geosquid]

Has anyone had issues finding the right kind of air stone?

I've tried two different models so far and they both don't seem to work properly. The first one is flat with a plastic base and only bubbles from the top. It's 10" long and the bubbles are pathetic. So, I tried a "bubble wall" version that is like a thin tube and green but the bubbles are super fine and it just seems to sort of fizz. Any specific brands people are using?

[SantaMonica]

Leave the air on all the time.

You can get a larger pump to get more air than fizz.

[glarior]

Design question/idea.... I am going to use a 30g long tank, raise it above my sump but still under my aquarium, add two 8"x22" screens attached to bubblers, 27 LED's per screen (660nm), bring water in from one end and have an overflow box on the other end for return to sump. That should give me about 44g of food per day or 1.56oz of food.

What do you think of this setup? The screen will be placed ~2" from the LED array on each side of the tank.

Is there a lph guideline for bubbles?

Do you think those underwater hose bubblers are good for the UAS?

[SantaMonica]

No lph guide yet. Seems that more is better.

1 cube is about 3 grams. So 44 grams is about 14 cubes. Needs about 176 square inches, with up to a total of 88 watts of LED.

[glarior]

No lph guide yet. Seems that more is better.

1 cube is about 3 grams. So 44 grams is about 14 cubes. Needs about 176 square inches, with up to a total of 88 watts of LED.

Okay, added a few more LED's and think I have a good plan to start with. Will order parts tomorrow.

What bubbler setup has been found to work best so far?

[Garf]

I have seen posts where small fish have been seen eating the screen algae, but in the absence of fish, has anyone seen mysids eating the copepods on the screen ( or at least prowling around the screen ). Seems this screen could well mean a mysid heaven / breeding ground.

[whites]

My pump could be double maybe even triple the out put imo, It is very quiet (happy) once the cabinet door is closed it is on par of the noise from the bubbles bursting, I would assume that double the size double the noise or close to it.

Im using the flexi hose air stone 30cm in length on this unit. Also I have found that the smaller the distance the air has to travel the more air/pressure you gain.

The length of the air hose is approx 50cm I could shave more off this as well by raising the pump above the water line which is recomended. The flexi stone is sitting just under the water line.. not at the bottom like some. My canvas lays over a baffle with water running over it a glass plate on top with led sitting on this the hose sits up stream leting the bubbles run over the canvas. I dont want to go on about the way im doing it just a bit of a talk about the pump as this is one of 4 factors in this design. Bubble size is small and cost of pump was $24 au

Spec below

Hailea Aco-6602
power 2.5W
pressure 0.013mpa
output 4L/min (240L/hr)
noise <40db
flow is adjustable (I have it all the way up)

This is the second from the bottom in the range they have 2 more above this one the next one up in the range doubles in output 8l/min then the top one is 10L/min

I hope this has helped.. I will edit this post to add what I have seen in growth.. Its not an ideal set up but I was getting loads of pods on it before the added air. It will just be interesting to see the diffrence with the changes I have made.

Should a thread be started on just air pumps and airstones?

[acorral]

Tinkering around this design:

2350

All feedback is welcome...

[kotlec]

You will waste a lot of light with this reflector setup. Direct beam is the best thing you can want for lighting algae.
Another problem can be sediment on the bottom. Even small amount will reduce light even more.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think this is a top down view

[kotlec]

Looks like im too tired today . :)
First note still in business.

[acorral]

I think this is a top down view

Indeed that's a top down view... so, kotlec, the sediment is not a problem...

I know it's not the ideal but it woudl be an easy way of doing a 2 sided screen UAS on the simple side...

What do you think about it Floyd?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well the issue is that the LEDs have a peak intensity that is like a bell curve right in front of the LED. So if that is not pointed directly at the screen, then you lose a lot of intensity. You would need to make the reflector a 45 degree angle or maybe just take the reflector you show (I know, it's just an example) and widen it and play with the arrangement to get the best coverage. Then you have to take into account refraction, etc. Not to get all into calculus and physics but the bottom line is that it could work, but you're going to lose quite a bit of intensity I would think, so account for that

[acorral]

Well the issue is that the LEDs have a peak intensity that is like a bell curve right in front of the LED. So if that is not pointed directly at the screen, then you lose a lot of intensity. You would need to make the reflector a 45 degree angle or maybe just take the reflector you show (I know, it's just an example) and widen it and play with the arrangement to get the best coverage. Then you have to take into account refraction, etc. Not to get all into calculus and physics but the bottom line is that it could work, but you're going to lose quite a bit of intensity I would think, so account for that

I guess if we don't want to get very mathematical it would be matter of testing... I'll continue with the first trial I'm conducting to have a baseline to compare with... and maybe later try this design.

Thank you Floyd

[SantaMonica]

Although a reflector does lose light, there is a great benefit of 2-sided growth.

[acorral]

Although a reflector does lose light, there is a great benefit of 2-sided growth.

Santamonica, which factor woudl you consider outweights the other?

one sided screen efficient light transfer vs two sided lose light transfer

[SantaMonica]

2-sided is more important.

[Floyd R Turbo]

SM, could you maybe start a thread that links to all the other sites where you have posted the UAS threads?

[SantaMonica]

Probably not a good idea, since it makes it easy for the haters.

[jacob.morgan78]

Would haters not make it easier to track progress and make improvements? Or would they be too big of a PITA?

[SantaMonica]

Pain.

[spideybry]

So I was thinking of a way to create some sort of way to force more bubble contact with the screen. I was debating on using an acrylic build kind of what someone else built, but my acrylic isn't my forte. http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1778&d=1331687632

A modified version of that is what I will be making. Ideally creating a U out of the mesh with a choke point to force the bubbles closer to the screen will promote more algae growth, and is simple enough for any one to make. I also plan on putting some sort of blocker so light doesn't get to the U part or the air stone. Before I make it, I want to experiment with other ideas of catching bubbles onto the net, but I have no idea where to even start with something like that.

Thoughts and comments appreciated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/Screenshot2012-05-18at22335PM.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/Screenshot2012-05-18at23507PM.png

[MorganAtlanta]

Just make the U out of solid/black/opaque plastic and you don't need the light blocker. It should be easy to bend a piece up, even if acrylic isn't your forte. Spend $2 on a plastic clipboard from Walmart and give it a try. You might be able to find flexible solid/opaque plastic-- maybe flexible cutting board material or shelf liners.

[spideybry]

Just make the U out of solid/black/opaque plastic and you don't need the light blocker. It should be easy to bend a piece up, even if acrylic isn't your forte. Spend $2 on a plastic clipboard from Walmart and give it a try. You might be able to find flexible solid/opaque plastic-- maybe flexible cutting board material or shelf liners.

Hmm one of these? I don't really have a blow torch lol. I guess I can try to use a blow dryer. I will go to Walmart today and see what I can find.

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/HqNH_GT0XhiPb_j4BwwNMEB1uRVktFxIatmzhIUPELUV2accS0 s_zPmdO5WIMLYkhEmjypVmO9bYIX588q4gTuMcV6QFr7daQus8 rIcafG0dMOYCG3DndXbZTQlPwtRRaU3hu4f1IpTGo1r5h02KbC EmZNpCA_7OS10btW0IjNUV9iF5dXubk0e_FMso62qsOs7mjE2L RuTzt8Cl-bdJE49QN7Ibt5ccEfsiPM6nVrHHBP0IUZ6jn5wypQP-jVLLh2GU4kf-inOemicG8wNSqZQm0QSXN9qDHuTV

[MorganAtlanta]

Give it a try. You'll only be in for a couple bucks.

A hair dryer might work, and like wise I've heard of people using curling irons, regular irons or just heating in the oven to 300f.

[jnad]

You can try one of them black flexible cutting board for use in the kitchen.

[spideybry]

I wound up not using the U, just because there is not enough space to make it efficient with the water level I have to work with. I will just wind up cleaning the air stones regularly. This is something that would work great in a sump though.

Here is a video of the scrubber before getting rid of the slotted pipe (was debating on doing both for a while till I cut myself and got pissed at it lol).
http://youtu.be/nS8XdWh6AjI


Here is after I got rid of the slotted pipe, and added another air stone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fNvm29LzaY


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/75d54f02.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

What I am planning is similar to this. I'm going to cut a slot in a piece of PVC pipe just smaller than the air wand I use, the wrap a piece of clear plastic (like what you use in a report cover) and then slide the wand into the pipe with the plastic over the whole screen. The idea here is that is will 'hug' the screen, which forces the bubbles to rub the entire screen all the way up. Then when the screen grows out, the plastic will flex out with the growth but it won't allow the bubbles to bypass the screen.

[spideybry]

What I am planning is similar to this. I'm going to cut a slot in a piece of PVC pipe just smaller than the air wand I use, the wrap a piece of clear plastic (like what you use in a report cover) and then slide the wand into the pipe with the plastic over the whole screen. The idea here is that is will 'hug' the screen, which forces the bubbles to rub the entire screen all the way up. Then when the screen grows out, the plastic will flex out with the growth but it won't allow the bubbles to bypass the screen.

I like that idea, more confined=less space for bubbles to disperse. I wonder if doing that will restrict growth too much though. So you are thinking of bending really thin acrylic to do that?

[Floyd R Turbo]

No, like I said I will be using a sheet of plastic like you use for the cover of a report, like paper thickness

[spideybry]

No, like I said I will be using a sheet of plastic like you use for the cover of a report, like paper thickness


Gotcha, will they be hard, or flowy like paper?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Like the consistency of x-ray paper but clear

[spideybry]

Cool, let me know how that turns out. Def want to see the plans on paper.

[SWhite]

What are people doing to help prevent the massive amounts of salt creep from popping bubbles?

[Garf]

With the apparent problems with light intensity on the UAS instead of buying diffusers, couldn't you send another load of bubbles up to refract the light ( further away from the screen ). Then when you wanted to intensify the lighting, the light diffusing bubble set could be turned down or off. Sorry if this has already been talked about.

[SantaMonica]

What are people doing to help prevent the massive amounts of salt creep from popping bubbles?

Waiting for the next version :)


couldn't you send another load of bubbles up to refract the light

Bubble do scatter the light more (like a prism), but I don't think they reflect light (like a mirror). So if the screen is green in some areas and not in others, more bubbles would probably help. But if the whole screen has no green, you probably just need to reduce hours. Or maybe increase hours. Still unshure.

[Garf]

Actually a fair portion bounces around the inside of the bubble and ends up going all different directions, effectively distancing the light source from the screen. I have even named this method of light control as Garfs Intensity Transformer, or GIT for short.

[Nmcgrawj]

Is the upflow design proven that it should be better than a waterfall design? Or are we just hoping to keep tweaking it so that it performs better?



Seems like all the screens I have seen are not nearly as impressive as even poorly built waterfall designs.

[Floyd R Turbo]

This is really a version for people to test and try out. Further refinements will likely enhance effectiveness. Like the one I just made LOL

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/UAS%20Test/DSC01222.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/UAS%20Test/DSC01223.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feKNYV7QCcw

[Nmcgrawj]

May have been discussed but has anyone looked at using skimmer with the air turned down to reduce the bubbles/skim production?

[dryworm]

has it been determined yet if bigger bubbles are better or more smaller bubbles are better?

also in regards to getting more bubbles to touch the screen, how about trying to crowd the box full of bubbles. i see the screen tied to a

12 inch wood stone. can you just put two more wood stones in, one on each side of the first wood stone. or more depending on the size of box.

that way the bubbles would fill up the whole box and would push the bubbles together

pressing against the screen.

[SantaMonica]

I think more air is always better, but it's not proven. And I not sure yet about bubble size, although larger bubbles would penetrate and move the hair algae better.

[dryworm]

i found a youtube video that shows the concept of what i was thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en7tQisoA8g&feature=related

2397

[SantaMonica]

My intuition tells me that those micro bubbles are not going to work. At the very least, if growth gets thick, those bubbles would not be able to move the gha about, and thus the deeper layers would die sooner due to lack of light and flow. I'm sure there is an application for such a fog though...

[Floyd R Turbo]

What is the original purpose of that bubble generator?

[srusso]

My intuition tells me that those micro bubbles are not going to work. At the very least, if growth gets thick, those bubbles would not be able to move the gha about, and thus the deeper layers would die sooner due to lack of light and flow. I'm sure there is an application for such a fog though...

See the last part?! "I'm sure there is an application for such a fog though..." a clue!

See what the "fog" seems to do to the light?! You would think it would block all/most of the light... but if you see it kind of fills saturates the water column with light... it may not be able to most the algae but what if you make flow do that...?

Dryworm... your on to something think you for sharing!

[srusso]

See the last part?! "I'm sure there is an application for such a fog though..." a clue!


a clue... I think I have been watching to much "Blue's Clues" with my son....

[Garf]

See the last part?! "I'm sure there is an application for such a fog though..." a clue!

See what the "fog" seems to do to the light?! You would think it would block all/most of the light... but if you see it kind of fills saturates the water column with light... it may not be able to most the algae but what if you make flow do that...?

Dryworm... your on to something think you for sharing!

This is what happens to light through bubbles. The end bit is of interest;

http://www.philiplaven.com/p8h1.html

[herring_fish]

As we say, the bubbles are there for moving the turf algae around (turf algae being a class that includes GHA) so I agree that the micro bubbles in the video aren't great for that but to speak to your point of light dispersion, you can get just about as bad of a sun burn on a somewhat cloudy day as on a clear one right? That is largely do to refraction.

I kind of thought that at least a glory effect would take place without refraction but I guess that, if I'm reading it right, this article shows that flashing, glitter lines and water caustics do not occur with bubbling.

Of course, setting aside increased light absorption for a moment, light disbursement away from a 2-D surface can also lower the total lumens getting to the algae. On the other hand, we have a 3-D growth environment in this design so as algal growth is more mature (longer), the total light delivered to the algae increases.

I would think that light is delivered down to the root of those strands that are successfully separated by the bubbles. Some of this light would arrive normal or perpendicular to the surface of the strands for optimal penetration of the cells and therefor good utilization. It's like pumping little flash lights down deep into the algal mass instead of straight rays of light.

[RkyRickstr]

How bout we send the air pump to keep the skimmer company?

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q198/Ansphire/IMAG1109.jpg

[dryworm]

Hey guys as far as reflective materials.. what are we talking about.. mirrors?.. whats reef safe?
i checked out the hydroponic grow websites to see what the best reflective material they recommened. 1. foylon 2. mylar 3. flat white paint. i dont know if foylon or mylar is aquarium safe or not. but there is krylon fusion flat white spray paint. krylon fusion is aquarium safe. so you could even spray it on the inside of your acrylic. and if your using a cfl with the dome/bowl reflector you could spray paint the inside of that also. cheap and easy.

has anyone ever tried to make their own air stone? take a piece of pvc pipe cap both ends. drill a hole in one cap and silicone the tubing to it or an airline adapter. then you could experiment different types of holes in it. drill different hole sizes. use a dremmel tool and make dashes ---- - - - or l l l l or / / / or whatever. maybe use two air pumps and silicone tubing in the other side too.

[herring_fish]

I remembered when I was researching a splash cover for the light on my old scrubber that glass doesn't transmit as much light as Plexiglass. Neither were great so I went without one and just cleaned the straight VHO's often. There is a tranmittance issue that has to be compensated for. It looks like for 1/4 inch of tank glass it would be something like 20% loss in light transmission. Here is a study that was done on 1/8 inch glass and acrylic.

Measured light transmission of standard soda-lime glass (typical
window/aquarium glass) and poly(methylmethacrylate) acrylic -
"Plexiglass" brand.

Wavelength (nm) % transmission
Glass acrylic

600 90 90
500 92 90
400 93 89
375 90 69
350 78 9
325 20 0
300 0 0

The thickness of the glass was 3 mm (glass thickness is metric in Canada)
The thickness of the acrylic was 1/8 " (ca 3 mm).

Borosilicate glass (pyrex) is transparent well out into the UV (at least
to 300 nm) but I don't know if it is available in sheets at a reasonable
price.

Different types or brands of "acrylic" may be different.

Kirk Marat
Dept of Chemistry
U of Manitoba

[kerry]

Are these measurements by a white light or was each test spectrum specific like from an LED?

[herring_fish]

I didn't look in depth so that is all that I know. I just thought about it and did a quick search. This is probably not the BEST study in the world. I picked it because they use aquarium tank glass, whatever that meant to them at the time. Most of the ways that they could have done it, the results would have been about the same because they are measuring the amount that goes in and what percent comes out. If you search under light tranmittance(tech term) or light transmition, more of the studies want to show that their glass transmits less light so the numbers would be worse.

If someone has concerns, they can do more Googling but you can just over build if this study is backed up by others. I would think that it is in the ball park. You can see that it transmits bluer and greener light very well but as you go redder, that the tranmittance problem goes up just a little. Yellow and red is not as good but still not bad. This is what you would expect. When you look through an empty tank's glass, it looks greenish blue. The tranmittance goes down quite a bit in the ranges that you don't need anyway. I always over light my scrubbers anyway. That way, I can always back off on the hours if I need to. If you over build, this shouldn't change anything

[kerry]

The only reason I asked is this would be typical of a white daylight florescent type bulb. These bulbs have much less reds in them so the test would show less. I might google it later. A good test should have showed a test at say so many inches without the glass or plexi then a test with the glass and plexi at the same distance. I know in water that blue penetrates the farthest but this is based on the sunlight and it has more blue anyway. Maybe on of these light guys can chime in and give us the scoop.

[herring_fish]

The week point of the study is that it doesn't go up to 6 1/2 or 7 hundred nm's but I'm sure that the methodology would stand up regardless of the light source. I just use this stuff as a rule of thumb anyway. If you go to a big pet store and look through a row of aquariums, what you can see through them drops to zero after 5 or 6 tanks. Like I say, I would just add 20% to my calculation as a safety factor whether I as going through glass or not.

[jwoyshnar]

So far I'm not liking the new style. Salt creep is horrible, I'm always cleaning the glass in front of the scrubber which when blocked inhibits the growth.

[SantaMonica]

Yes the original test version requires glass cleaning with each screen cleaning. Salt creep is just a design parameter, however; the next version has very little.

[SWhite]

Yeah the glass cleaning might end up being a deal breaker for the UAS as right now mine is in an acrylic sump.

[jnad]

Hello!

I am running an "in tank" version, and as SM say the salt creep is just an design parameter. I have no salt creep, no bubbles escaping to the tank and no cleaning of the display glass :)

Even though the design is an "in tank" version is is made as an closed box with plexi glass to let the light get to the screen. The whole scrubber box have to be cleaned of algaes though, but that is easely done when cleaning the screen, just lifting the whole box out of the tank and clean it in the sink when cleaning the screen.

jnad

[jwoyshnar]

Yes the original test version requires glass cleaning with each screen cleaning. Salt creep is just a design parameter, however; the next version has very little.

I look forward to seeing that. The idea of the UAS is great. That is why I'm holding out on building anything right now of more permanent design. Thanks for the reply

[acorral]

When are we having the new design SantaMonica? couldn't you just skip a few days and publish it today ? come on man !! don't play hard

[SWhite]

A general scrubber question: Do you all rinse/thaw your cubes of frozen mysis before feeding the tank? I know that seahorse owners are STRONGLY suggested to rinse before feeding to cut back on 'waste' products entering the system that isn't consumed by the seahorse.

But I wonder if the scrubber ratings are for the entire content of the cube, not just the mysis itself, if my scrubber wouldn't have to be as large. Or would it be in my interest to feed the entire cube and let the extras be food for corals/etc until they are converted down to the scrubber?

Any thoughts?

[Floyd R Turbo]

If you're talking PE mysis and a coldwater non-coral seahorse tank, that is pretty specific conditions and I would do whatever is suggested by seahorse keepers (I believe rinsing is in order). I even rinse that stuff before adding to my DIY reef food, it's greasy stuff. But the stuff from Brine Shrimp Direct or the like is much less to worry about, just thaw & pour off, maybe a quick rinse in RODI but that's it.

[SWhite]

I have a bunch of soft coral and I'm wondering if they would gain benefit from the extra "stuff"...

[SantaMonica]

Sizing does not matter, drained or not. The nutrients are the same, and are all in the solid food, which are converted quickly into urine by the animals. Urine (ammonia/ammonium) is mostly what grows the algae.

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1795-Phosphate-in-food-article-by-Randy-Holmes-Farley

[RkClimber]

has anyone ever tried to make their own air stone?

Yes, I have with fantastic results. :) I'm designing my scrubber now and using one of my acrylic air stones. I'll show you it once I'm done.

[thepotz]

Instead of going through all this trouble making an upflow algae scrubber, and getting the bubbles to contact the screen evenly, why not just make a large co2 reactor, and put your standard waterfall algae scrubber inside it. then the algae will have all the co2 it wants.

[acorral]

Instead of going through all this trouble making an upflow algae scrubber, and getting the bubbles to contact the screen evenly, why not just make a large co2 reactor, and put your standard waterfall algae scrubber inside it. then the algae will have all the co2 it wants.

What about PH ?

Bubbles also serve as circulation and agitation not just CO2 delivery as far as I understand

[thepotz]

There is agitation and circulation in a waterfall scrubber. It's my understanding that algae responds best to nitrate, nitrite, phosphate, CO2, and light. all i'm saying is if you use CO2 already in your water column to grow plants, just make a large co2 reactor, and grow algae in it.

[herring_fish]

If you have a CO2 reactor already, using it will help stimulate growth if properly applied. That is true.

Please forgive me for sounding like a broken record but part of the point of having an up flowing bubble system is to create randomized turbulence, which helps prevent algae strands from sticking together. Strands that are stuck together can reduce the light that gets to the lower strands but the most important point is, in my opinion, that strands that are stuck together will begin to suffocate. If water can flow by all of the strands, the growth can increase by 50%.

Additionally, when matting is forestalled by agitation, algae death does not return nutrients to the water column. This means that while peak growth is not maintained when harvesting is delayed, algae will continue to grow and take up nutrients instead of going backwards.

So, if you can use CO2 while preventing clumping then all the better but clumping is a bigger issue.

Signed Mr. Turbulance :-)

[thepotz]

OK, now I am understanding why turbulance and agitation are important!
Thanks!

[SantaMonica]

The new Hang-On-Glass UAS with bubble remover:

http://www.algaescrubber.net/Post2.jpg

[RkyRickstr]

Looks good, now with the vent holes out of the water how do u make sure you have water flowing in and out of the scrubber chamber?

[SantaMonica]

Water comes in the bottom, sucked in by the upflowing bubbles. It goes out of the spaces in the sides, or you can make holes in the sides.

[RkyRickstr]

ok.. did you make a corner version of this one?

[SantaMonica]

No, just this simple 1-sided one.

[ruddybop]

No, just this simple 1-sided one.


Your design is pretty much the same thing I came up with after I posted my first video of my test 10 gallon.... Great minds think alike.... :)

[herring_fish]

When?

[ruddybop]

When?

It doesn't matter when ... I just think it's neat that SM,s design and mine are similar and him and I didn't do any communication together until I posted a Vid on Monsterfishkeepers.

I'm not here to start an argument....SM has the patent on it anyway...Congrats SM.....cheers.... :)

[SantaMonica]

Patent pending :)

[herring_fish]

I'm not tying to start and argument. I have a similar mind as well. I was just wondering then.

[SantaMonica]

The HOG was a nice little idea from last year... was going to wait until later this year to post it but some other folks were almost there already :)

[Sly]

That looks like a very good design. I may have to try this on a nano tank I have. I ran an algae scrubber for years and finally had to tear it apart because it worked too well... It produced so much algae that I couldn't keep up cleaning it. My tank looked spotless but the problem I had was my algae scrubber kept overflowing. This was just a design problem and I intend to fix it and get the scrubber back up and running. Good site BTW!

[SantaMonica]

Yep the cool thing about an in-tank UAS is that overflowing = stuffed fish :)

[Bubbabobobbrain]

OK. So I'm completely new to the algae scrubber scene and am interested in trying one. I have a 20 gallon sump on my 75 gallon reef tank and it seems that no matter what I do I can never seem to keep my nitrates and phosphates in check. I was wondering exactly what do I need to get one of these started? Is it just a screen, air pump, air stone strip, and light? And I see that the screens are angled, so I'm guessing that the air stone goes behind the screen so the bubbles roll up the back of the screen right. Sorry I have so many questions but this seems very cool and was highly recommended by a friend in my reef club. Thanks in advance for any advice and guidance.

[SantaMonica]

Yes they are that simple. Screen does not have to be tilted, however:

http://www.algaescrubber.net/Post1.jpg

[Bubbabobobbrain]

Cool! Thanks. And to do 2 sides I just throw on a mirror or 2 for reflectors and add another light? And does a scrubber replace a refugium? I would need to take all the rock out of my sump to use a scrubber. Does the scrubber replace all other gear besides my Skimmer? Can I change my sump to just having a drain, Skimmer, and scrubber and not use the refugium?.

[ruddybop]

I'm not tying to start and argument. I have a similar mind as well. I was just wondering then.

I made my test scrubber in the beginning of February And posted my video on Utube one month after growth in March.

Forgive me if I offended you, but your when with a Question mark ( When?) ... Looked like a prove it to me question....That's the thing about typing it can be taken this way or that way... :)

[SantaMonica]

2-sided is always better, preferrably with a light; second best is a reflector.

Replaces a fuge. Leave the rock in. Replaces all other including the skimmer.

My fav sump is no sump. :)

[BK_Malik]

Are the new scrubbers for sale anywhere? Is anybody building algae scrubbers to sell?

[Ace25]

It doesn't matter when ... I just think it's neat that SM,s design and mine are similar and him and I didn't do any communication together until I posted a Vid on Monsterfishkeepers.

I'm not here to start an argument....SM has the patent on it anyway...Congrats SM.....cheers.... :)
I am certainly no patent attorney but I would bet his patent would not hold up in court/re-examination since the design was posted on this very forum 2 years before SM announced it and it appears other people have patents for similar ideas. I am very curious to actually read Santa Monica's patent to see exactly what he was able to get a patent on.

Look at this thread by herring_fish from November 2009 and tell me that isn't the same idea as the UAS.
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?363-Plankton-Without-Green-Water

11-4-2009: How about the old algae scrubber in a simpler form?

Off the top of my head, my first design ideas starts with a small to medium tank. I would add a removable black plastic plate about 2 or 3 inches from and parallel to the glass at the end of the tank.

It would go from front to back but would not reach the bottom and not go all the way to the water level. A bubble bar, place between the plate and the glass would forms a wall of bubbles that should cause a gentle role of the water in the tank and should agitate the algae strands to break down the boundary layers. Hopefully this would increase the efficiency of the algal growth and nutrient uptake.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8021/7325689114_b916fbae9d.jpg
When I do a patent search I see quite a few different people having patents on algae type filters. As an example here is one I found when I was searching for patents for the idea I had for a HOB Super UAS filter. This patent was filed in 2008.
http://www.google.com/patents/US7682503
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&q=algae+filter&btnG=

[SantaMonica]

Reminder that mine are pending, not issued.

Nevertheless the folks in-the-know have interesting ways of drafting claims in view of the prior art landscape. I have a hard enough time just explaining to them what I want :) BTW, Joe Norris is a member here.

[ruddybop]

[QUOTE=Ace25;21490]I am certainly no patent attorney but I would bet his patent would not hold up in court/re-examination since the design was posted on this very forum 2 years before SM announced it and it appears other people have patents for similar ideas. I am very curious to actually read Santa Monica's patent to see exactly what he was able to get a patent on.

Yes it would be interesting to see SM,s Patent request... I made a spinning Algae Scrubber in my 10 gallon just experimenting around. I did a search and a similar one has a patent on it.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=EUIAAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

Not that I'm trying to patent my ideas. I just want my fish healthy with the easiest/cost effective way....

Look at this thread by herring_fish from November 2009 and tell me that isn't the same idea as the UAS.
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?363-Plankton-Without-Green-Water

And Herring_Fish did you try your idea even though SM had doubts with it in the beginning. That would have encouraged me to try it... :)
And if you did try it how did it work...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8021/7325689114_b916fbae9d.jpg

[WAK]

Take a look at this one ruddy looks like the old aquariacare company were onto the wheel design also.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=JpsaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=algae+filter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ClXLT8PgBsfH0QXap_TKAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=algae%20filter&f=false

[ruddybop]

Take a look at this one ruddy looks like the old aquariacare company were onto the wheel design also.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=JpsaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=algae+filter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ClXLT8PgBsfH0QXap_TKAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=algae%20filter&f=false

Yes... I just saw that one this morning and told the wife that my motorized design was already made and had a patent.... That patent uses the same gear pattern that I also came up with.

Funny how most of our/peoples ideas have already been thought up...

Wonder why none of these are out for sale at fish stores......

[WAK]

Yes, with the amount of patents on the filters i wonder why its never gone mainstream

[herring_fish]

WAK: I would think that all of the patents held the ATS back. Dr. Adey was the inventor, the top authority and the big proponent of the scrubbers, started in the early 90's. He also took most of the flak that was more like a firestorm over it as well. He licensed it but the market was too small in the environment of all of the criticism that the ATS received. Of course turf is a group of plants that include GHA and Adey grew that.

Unfortunately, he decided not to personally produce his scrubbers for the hobby market and instead pursued the commercial market where the money was/is. Throw in a sprinkling of royalty wars and the ATS fell out of what ever favor that it had because the only people that could say that they had one were the people that could build one. Some of his most efficient designs were complicated and you had to have some design and building savvy to get one.

I'm a designer so I built one while I was reading the book and then went on to version 2 which I still use today. I was just on here getting advice on interim lighting for it. http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1915-Lighting-the-Dump-Bucket I had some articles publish that featured it but I was a reed in the wind. You can see them on my web site although they are very out dated. You can also see that design of the ATS and renderings of my old and new tanks on my web site. http://asaherring.com I only saw a few other articles that got published. In case you can't tell, my avatar is a rendering of the splash from that dump bucket on my old tank.

Then the Miracle Mud guys came out with there system that featured caulerpa as the biggest part of there design but the mud was the thrust of their marketing, not the algae. I feel that for that reason, it was not ridiculed as much as the ATS. Between that and the refugium that Adey proposed, algae slowly gained ground and algae, mainly cheato gained acceptance as a means of removing excess waist that the skimmer couldn't handle.

Actually since algae had gained general, although reluctant acceptance, SantaMonica's "scrubber in a bucket" rekindled interest in the ATS. It was easy to make and cheap so lots of people started playing with it. He also got a firestorm of criticism as well but not nearly as much. That, in part is why he is here.

Patents are a two edged sword. I think that the last of Adey's Patents run out this year. It is hard to make money while working around patents and money drive advertizement and articles. The scrubber in a bucket does not fall under any patents that I know of.


Ace25 and ruddybop: Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes people forget where they saw something first. It probably didn't saulve a problem that he was interested in at the time and when the new problem did come up, so did the idea! It is nice to get the credit for what you do. I'm sure that he has improved the UAS but since then.

ruddybop: I never built it. I moved on to a better way to grow plankton in tall tubes along the wall in the garage. I built a 2 axis CNC type robot to feed the cultures and that has taken a lot of my free time. You can also see that design, renderings and video on my site.

[dryworm]

is there a reason why the hog is black. i thought black absorbed light and white reflected light. would it be better if it was white?

[ruddybop]

ruddybop: I never built it. I moved on to a better way to grow plankton in tall tubes along the wall in the garage. I built a 2 axis CNC type robot to feed the cultures and that has taken a lot of my free time. You can also see that design, renderings and video on my site.

Yes.... I actually saw that video on youtube ... Very time consuming designing and engineering a small cnc for feeding a unit of tubes. Setting it up, building it ,programing the plc parameters.

I didn't realize that was your video. Nice Job...

[SWhite]

is there a reason why the hog is black. i thought black absorbed light and white reflected light. would it be better if it was white?

The box for my LEDs is white, assuming that I'd want to reflect rather than absorb it.

[SantaMonica]

HOG is black so ask to block out all light. I'm looking into making the inside white. Only red escapes the vent holes, and through the glass.

[WAK]

i understand what your saying herring_fish ,maybe all the patents on different designs have held it back.

[kcress]

HOG is black so ask to block out all light. I'm looking into making the inside white. Only red escapes the vent holes, and through the glass.

There is a type of acrylic for signs that is white on one side and black on the other. The object is to allow someone to route out the white side just down to the black to create very high contrast lettering. (of course you can also route thru the black to have white lettering.) That would probably provide your white inside black outside.

[SantaMonica]

Yes that sounds like one good way of doing it.

[TickyTy]

I have been tagging along for a while now and I have started an UAS in my sump. I have some pics that I will post but I am now intrigued by the new concept. I had decent growth after 10 days but I also had some cyano in an adjoining chamber of the sump. I left the filter sock in place which meant less flow in that section and the light was penetrating through the plexi. I have since removed the sock and have the screen in the same section as the return is discharging. Pics to follow.


Could a LED Moon light strip be used as a light source? I had growth on one of them previously and was wondering if I had found a new use for it.

[acorral]

I have been tagging along for a while now and I have started an UAS in my sump. I have some pics that I will post but I am now intrigued by the new concept. I had decent growth after 10 days but I also had some cyano in an adjoining chamber of the sump. I left the filter sock in place which meant less flow in that section and the light was penetrating through the plexi. I have since removed the sock and have the screen in the same section as the return is discharging. Pics to follow.


Could a LED Moon light strip be used as a light source? I had growth on one of them previously and was wondering if I had found a new use for it.

I wouldn't use a moonlight as the light source, better to use red or warm light