The new Upflow Algae Scrubber (UAS)

[SantaMonica]

This new test version of the algae scrubber is much easier to build than the waterfall version. This new scrubber has never been posted before May 2012. It works in both freshwater and saltwater.

If you are like most aquatic hobbyists, nuisance algae is an ongoing problem. You try to feed your livestock, and the next thing you know, you get algae. You've already tried many fixes; some work but are expensive; some kind of work but you're not sure; and some just don't work at all.

Think about what is happening: Your aquarium is accumulating nutrients (nitrate and phosphate) because of the food you feed. Algae eat nitrate and phosphate to grow, so the algae are having a great time growing in your water because they are eating all your nutrients! What to do?

Well think about this: In order to grow, algae must be provided with nitrate and phosphate. So why can't you just use the algae to consume all the nitrate and phosphate? The answer: You can! How? With a simple device you build called an Upflow Algae Scrubber. It's simple, cheap, and you can make a small one in just a few minutes with parts you probably already have. Here are some pics of the most basic test design; it probably won't be your final version, but it will get you started:


http://www.algaescrubber.net/Post1.jpg



An "algae scrubber" is a simple filter that actually grows algae in the filter, so that the algae do not grow in other parts of your aquarium. Simply put, the conditions for algae growth inside the filter are better than the conditions in the rest of your aquarium; thus the algae grow in the filter instead of your aquarium, and then you just remove the algae from the filter and throw the algae away. But in order for the algae to grow in the filter, the algae need to consume nitrate and phosphate; so guess where the nitrate and phosphate come from? Your water!

If you stop and think about it, algae always grow in certain spots, and not in others. This is because some of the three growing conditions (light, flow, nutrients) are better in some parts of your water than they are in others. An "upflow algae scrubber" simply optimizes these conditions, and does so at a place where the algae can be easily removed and thrown away. And once the nitrate and phosphate have been removed from your water, all other nuisance algae such as green hair, bubble, turf and slime, will have a hard time staying alive.

So where have these filters been all this time, and why haven't you heard of them if they work so well? Well the original waterfall version (posted in August 2008) was hard to build, and was not really for sale anywhere; so unless you liked to build things from scratch, you had no choice but to buy some other kind of filter. All the filter really needed to do was to create good growing conditions (light, flow, nutrients) for the algae, by flowing the water across a piece of rough material, so that the algae would grow on the material instead of somewhere else in the aquarium. The waterfall algae scrubber did grow lots of algae in the filter, and it removed lots of algae from aquariums: Over 1,000 people built their own waterfall algae scrubbers, and reported their results on various forums during a 4 year period; almost all of them wiped out their nuisance algae within 8 weeks, and many did so in 4 weeks. And on other forums that I never posted on, an estimated 10,000 people built their own waterfall algae scrubbers with similar results.

A little over a year ago in April 2011, another idea came along: Instead of letting the water flow down a screen like a waterfall, how about you let the water flow up the screen using air bubbles? Why? Because as good as waterfall algae scrubbers are, they still need a place for the water to drain "down" to. This means that you need to have a sump below the aquarium, or you need to have the scrubber up above the aquarium. This is not easy, and is very difficult for a nano aquarium which usually has no sump below it, and no room above it. Also, the waterfall version requires it to be out of the water (in the air), which takes up extra space. The new "upflow" version, however, can be placed inside the aquarium, so that it takes up no extra space at all, and it needs no external plumbing or water pumps at all. Only air bubbles.

The Upflow Algae Scrubber (tm) (UAS) provides the best growing conditions for algae in your tank: Air bubbles provide rapid turbulent flow; Strong lighting provides the light; and the nutrients that are already in your water provide the nitrate and phosphate. All that's needed is a place for the algae to attach to, and that is provided by the roughed-up plastic screen. Thus the algae start growing on the screen because the flow and lighting are stronger there than they are in the rest of your aquarium; nitrate and phosphate are consumed in the process. This causes algae to start disappearing from your aquarium and start re-appearing on the scrubber screen, so that you can throw the algae away every week or two.

The most basic way to set up an Upflow Algae Scrubber, especially in small aquariums, is just to put some air bubbles beneath a vertical screen. If inside an aquarium, you just put a light on the outside of the glass, so that it shines inside to the screen. And if you want better performance (which means better filtering), just add a reflector to give the screen some light on both sides. The screen is best made with 7-mesh cross stitch plastic canvas that you get at sewing or craft stores, or online. Also, don't forget to rough up the screen with a sharp object like a hole saw; the screen should be so rough that the screen holes are almost filled in with all the little pieces of plastic that you roughed up.

One thing to remember is that an Upflow Algae Scrubber (or any algae scrubber) will not cause more algae to grow in your aquarium. Instead, the algae will disappear from your aquarium, and will start to grow on the scrubber screen instead. You then just remove the screen and scrape the algae off. And here's a surprise: Watch out for your fish or snails eating your filter! There's nothing tastier than live green algae, so your fish or snails may keep your screen from getting very thick. The simple solution is to just put some mesh or extra plastic canvas around it.

There are a couple of requirements that have been learned since August 2008 which will get you started quicker. The size of the Upflow Algae Scrubber that is needed is based on how much you feed, and not how much water you have, because the nutrients that cause algae to grow come from the food you feed. The following updated picture has size guidelines:

http://algaescrubber.net/Sizing.jpg



And the following updated picture has examples:

http://algaescrubber.net/Examples.jpg



Thanks to floyd, russo, worley, spidey, rumpy, morgan, marksfish, doompie, kerry, jnad, and tebo for doing early testing. When posting your build pics, start a separate thread in this section, and title it "Username UAS Test".

[srusso]

[QUOTE=SantaMonica;18337]Here it is...

whaaaa....?

[srusso]

are you kidding me! WOW! I may have the most perfect 70 gallon tank to do this on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MorganAtlanta]

Air flow rate per inch of screen?

[SantaMonica]

No recommended air flow available, but a regular small air pump seemed to be more than enough for that 3" airstone.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Dude this can totally be done with an enclosed box. I can take the boxes I am making for type-I (which are built well enough to remain constantly full) or the SM100 even and plug the hole in the bottom, pump water into one side and let it drain out the other. Also since mine have a emergency drain bulkhead about 1/2 way up one side (that fits a uniseal or a 1" ABS BRS bulkhead) all I would need is an upturned elbow for a surface drain. This is totally do-able and so frickin stupid simple why didn't I think of this man!! Lucky for me I can easily convert all my designs over for literally nothing.

[SantaMonica]

Yea I guess you could pump water to it, and put it anywhere then.

[MorganAtlanta]

Are the lighting wattage and feeding specs roughly the same as the waterfall?

I must say, I'm really surprised that this would work, but it will be revolutionary if it does and it scales up.

[SantaMonica]

I think specs will be the same; my tests show they will, but I'm just one tester. If anything, growth will probably be a bit better, due to better delivery of carbon via the bubbles.

[spideybry]

This is a super interesting concept. My only worry is scaling this up for larger tanks. For nanos this seems like an ace in the hole. I haven't really seen air stones large enough for bigger tanks. I guess the biggest I have seen them is around what 4" long?

I also see that we are going to be limited to one sided lighting for nanos if this goes in tank, so a painted black backing on a cube will make this hard to implement unless it is externalized. My guess is that lighting from the main tank will help algae grow.


Dude this can totally be done with an enclosed box. I can take the boxes I am making for type-I (which are built well enough to remain constantly full) or the SM100 even and plug the hole in the bottom, pump water into one side and let it drain out the other. Also since mine have a emergency drain bulkhead about 1/2 way up one side (that fits a uniseal or a 1" ABS BRS bulkhead) all I would need is an upturned elbow for a surface drain. This is totally do-able and so frickin stupid simple why didn't I think of this man!! Lucky for me I can easily convert all my designs over for literally nothing.

This is my plan eventually with something like this. Seems like it is more efficient. You could totally get away with a standpipe-ish type drain and keep the hole in place and just keep the new modified box.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok well I have a 120 gallon tank with no filtration at all right now, just a few power heads. I was going to put one of my L1 scrubbers on it for a tester for that. now I'm thinking that I should build the box w/o the bottom drain and try top of tank again with this new design. Since I won't have to deal with massive flow through the box creating microbubbles in the tank I bet it would work much better. Going to be hard keeping that secret if I have someone come over to pick something up and they want to look at my tank.

I also have a couple 10g tanks and could do some FW. might get to it this weekend.

This is great
no slot tube
can't dry out on outage
no need to shut off flow to clean
I could go on

Main question though is related to my scrubber boxes I am building now. This is my prototype L2 without the bottom hole for the bulkhead, which I forgot to drill before bonding.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/L2%20Type-I%20Algae%20Scrubber/DSC00363.jpg

(Looking back on it, I'm thinking that forgetting this hole was somehow meant to be)

I can't see how there are any implications for me selling this box as a type-I scrubber. Converting this to a type-2 is simple as I previously described. However the second this hits the general public in May I guarantee you I am going to get people wanting one made for the type 2 scrubber (i.e. no bulkhead in bottom, etc). So how do I handle that with all your embodiments etc?

[SantaMonica]

Well this is Technology #1 Embodiment #1. You would just do a $5 diy reseller license for each one you make that uses it.

[MorganAtlanta]

You can get airstones as large as you want. Here's a 12-incher for $2.99. They make them for ponds that are huge. You can also get bubble tubing that you can shape.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok, so I can package this however I want, make an acrylic box specifically for the bubble-up scrubber and an LED light fixture, and since T1E1 uses just an airstone and screen then I am not stepping on any tech toes?

[SantaMonica]

Yes scaling up will not be a problem.

[srusso]

is there any reason the screen has to be attached to the air stone?

[SantaMonica]

Yes I think the box you described is a generic box, and not a planned embodiment. Would help to see pics though.

[srusso]

any issues with very tall designs or long ones?

[SantaMonica]

No it does not have to be attached; the bubbles just have to rub the screen.

[SantaMonica]

Any size works very similar; cleaning is the main issue.

[srusso]

Any size works very similar; cleaning is the main issue.

why do you say that?

[SantaMonica]

You want to be able to clean it easily. Remember that the window is under water, and will need cleaning.

[srusso]

Holy COW!!! I just came up with a great design in my head!!!.... I will not be able to sleep tonight....

[srusso]

You want to be able to clean it easily.

Yeah, thats why I dont think attaching the screen wouldnt be any good. Screen should be suspend above air stone for easy removal. Simple drop in design.....

[srusso]

Do you think you Larger setups should have light from both sides?

[MorganAtlanta]

SM-
What's the "gallon" rating on the pump you are using on your 3" air stone?

For example this one comes in 10/20/40/60 and 100 "gallon"
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3669+12911+12738&pcatid=12738

[spideybry]

Cleaning the screen will be the easy part, if it has a compartment in the tank, cleaning the glass will be a challenge. For nano applications do you think this is going to be visually appeasing to keep in their tanks? I am trying to wrap my head around how to get this in a tank and have it look good as well.

Eventually I will be modding my SM100 to meet these needs. I think it will be a great way to get this done. Removable standpipe for cleaning sides and screen. Below is a rough sketch of a modded sm100.

[srusso]

Can you give us the background? When did you think of this? I know it kind of shoulda stupid because the answer almost seems too odvious, can you explain in your words why and how this design works?

Would confining the bubbles close to the screen help?

[SantaMonica]

Lights are always better on both sides.

No gallon rating that I saw; just a cheap one.

For nano's this is just the ugly, but cheap, one. Future ones will look better.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I wonder if using a screen that is larger than the feeding size will be a problem with this design. I guess time will tell, but for some reason I don't see this screen growing yellow rubbery algae or black slime. in a tank I "maintain" at a chinese restaurant, the whole tank is a green forest and the N and P are off the charts. Nothing grows yellow rubbery or black slimy I think that is inherent to the vertical waterfall design. My gut tells me that this may eliminate one of the biggest problems with oversized screens, not enough flow, too much/not enough lights, etc - growing the wrong type of algae. Wow.

Spidey that is basically what I will be building.

[SantaMonica]

Came up with it over few days, about one year ago. It works because of the better delivery of carbon to the algae:

2161

[Floyd R Turbo]

holy crap you could easily do a slanted screen. that might even be better. Bubble rubbing for longer and pushing through the screen. booyah

[MorganAtlanta]

Given that future ones will be prettier, I guess we shouldn't put too much effort into trying to make our first test one look anything but ugly.


Lights are always better on both sides.

No gallon rating that I saw; just a cheap one.

For nano's this is just the ugly, but cheap, one. Future ones will look better.

[kerry]

HOW KEWL IS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Floyd, your remember my scrubber you thought was unsafe right!!!!? Its on now brother, its me and you!!!!! Let the algae growth begin!!!!!!! Yes that's a challenge Sir!
I am not sure how the horizontal would work, it would be fine until the algae started to fill in and then the light would be blocked. Just a suggestion but, maybe someone will prove me wrong. I have some of the best horizontal growth with the regular scrubber so maybe its time someone else did better with this new one.
OK, here it is!!! WHO can top this growth, that card is regular size credit card type. Yep, that's the best horizontal growth pic I have seen with the old type scrubber. So lets just say this is the bench mark. Lets see what you can do with this new stuff. Bring it on as Floyd says!!!!! LOL. You are invited to Floyd!!
I had to repost the pic, sorry.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Excellent concept SM. And so simple.

I'm away on holiday atthe moment but will definitly be having a go at one of these when I'm back home.

Thanks for thinking of it.


I wonder if there would be any advantage in injecting a little CO2 into the airline?

[SantaMonica]

It would really drop your pH. It seems to grow good already, so there is probably no need.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well before our Spring Frag Fest here in Des Moines, I knocked out a prototype of my "L2" scrubber here

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/L2%20Type-I%20Algae%20Scrubber/DSC00363.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/L2%20Type-I%20Algae%20Scrubber/DSC00364.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/L2%20Type-I%20Algae%20Scrubber/DSC00365.jpg

Dollar bill for scale. Inside box dim is 3"

As I mentioned, right after I bonded the bottom on I realized that I forgot to route the hole in the bottom for the bulkhead. Like I said, maybe that was fate LOL.

My plan all along was to add a secondary drain on the side, about 1/2 way up, and put a Uniseal bulkhead in there and a 1" street elbow, but the hole for that also fits a 1" BRS ABS bulkhead. Also not shown yet is a 1" strip of black 1/4" acrylic on either side of the bottom window, which will support a false bottom over the drain which blocks light in the lower inch of the box and routes the water to either side of the bottom and around to the drain underneath vs the screen running right into the drain. This proximity to the drain is what causes thick growth to block it and cause an overflow, so that was my solution. Also since this didn't require a lot of flow (6" wide x 35 GPH = 210 GPH) it only needed a $33 Eheim Compact 1000 pump, which so conveniently has a flow adjustment slider on it.

So given this setup, and since the box is watertight, conversion to a UAS is simple:

1) plug the drain or, more preferably (but less reversible) seal over the bulkhead hole
2) move the bulkhead to the side and put in an elbow on the inside, turned up or at a 45 (probably the latter)
3) hard pipe (or vinyl hose) the drain from the side to the sump or tank
4) run the hose from the pump into a hose barb-to-NPT adapter and into a 45 or 90 elbow inside the box via one of the pipe support cutouts and route that to the bottom of the box somewhere (with a siphon break) or just the opposite end of the box from the side drain to maximize turnover
5) put airstone in with screen attached (same screen used for the downflow algae scrubber (now known as DAS)) in the bottom of the box and attach air pump, which sets on top of the box
6) mod the lid (not shown in pics above either) to compensate for bubbles popping causing water to condense on the underside of the lid and escape the box (lid would also block the other slot pipe cutout)
7) possibly mod the false bottom so that it has a 'tray' to keep the bubbler in position and also block light from it (I see the airstone growing algae and needing cleaning)
8) use same LED lights, same screen as DAS

The main reason for the last one is...I have 9 sets of heat sinks that I bought for making DAS scrubbers. LOL.

So if this works, the next step is to make the chamber much narrower, like 1", do away with bulkheads completely, and build in an internal overflow box basically so that the water just gets skimmed off the top of the box internally on one end. The challenge there is making it so you can cleanly pipe it down to a sump or back into the tank, but I have mad crazy ideas in my head about how to make that happen as I am a mad crazy acrylic engineer.

Since there is no air layer, I'm guessing that burning algae with intense light is not so much of an issue. Also making the box thin cuts down (however insignificant) light loss through water. Theoretically you could have the LEDs right against one side and the algae right against the other side without a problem.

Then the issue become algae growth in the box, particularly on the acrylic windows. I would be recommending cleaning by removing the box from the system when needed and soaking in vinegar for an hour and scrubbing with a toothbrush, which would eliminate potential scratching.

I'm excited to get all this going now. This is exactly what you said it would be, simple and effective. I'm excited to not have to clean a friggin slot anymore.

Also if you make a enclosed box with a screen that is smaller than the box, I forsee that you could go weeks without cleaning the screen. This is HUGE for maintenance companies. HUGE. hell this is huge for me as I maintain 3 tanks and hardly have time to do anything on 2 of them but bring in top off water and change a filter pad/sock. With this I can clean the screen in 10 seconds in a 5g bucket with a gallon of RO/DI in it, at the tank, or just show them how to do it. I was kind of dreading having to maintain scrubbers on 3 tanks, not any more man. So what if they forget to do it for a while, the roots will get water and light and won't die so no harm done. Damn this just keeps getting better.

[jnad]

Hello!

Whooow, this is a great consept, it is just stunning, have to congratulate you coming up with this SM.

I think i will try to do a simple in tank first to test out the consept, i do think this is the idea with this test tread tatt SM made, this test group that we are in testing the consept by just making simple scrubbers first to Get some results.
I did a small in tank scrubber beafore that did not work, but that scrubber might just work with SM bubble idea, i might eve use the same light as i used beafore.
Do you think i can use this scrubber with some modifications? Here is a link to the scrubber:
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1468-Temporary-Scrubber&highlight=Jnad+scrubber

There is a couple of problems that has to be solved that i think of when using a in tank scrubber:

1. Snail problem: with my previous in tank scrubber the screen ended up full of snails eating up the algae. Have to make the scrubber snail safe.
2. Micro bubbles: SM, do you think there will be problems with micro bubbles escaping from the scrubber to the main display when using air stone in the scrubber placed inside the main display.

I will use a couple of days thinking what to do, this new idea from SM was just like a Shock :)

Jnad

[kerry]

I figured the screen would be laying on top of the water so I was a little off. I think you can make something with that scrubber Jnad. I am not sure if the snails will really hinder the screen all that much, I would think it would fill in pretty quick and maybe make cleanings less. I have one above my tank and I think I am going to plug the drain and make one up higher and install an air stone as my test pilot.
I have also been playing with the LED photo period because I was getting slight burning on the 10G. So I think you are correct on the water eliminating the burning Floyd.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't think the microbubbles will really be much of an issue either. Microbubbles are usually caused by turbulence, the bubbles produced by an airstone will generally be bigger and since they are 'traveling' upward by design, will tend to break at the surface. If you think about the usual sponge filter bubbler, or old undergravel filter with airstones at the bottom, you don't get a microbubble problem in those systems.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think the quantity of horizontal growth you are getting it better because it is small. With a screen that small and narrow, there is less chance for channeling as there is with the traditional huge screens. Of course the rules of the sizing game changed everything, but I don't think anyone looked backward (or more appropriately, took a step backward) and revisited and actually built a horizontal scrubber based on the feeding guidelines until you did Kerry.

[jnad]

I don't think the microbubbles will really be much of an issue either. Microbubbles are usually caused by turbulence, the bubbles produced by an airstone will generally be bigger and since they are 'traveling' upward by design, will tend to break at the surface. If you think about the usual sponge filter bubbler, or old undergravel filter with airstones at the bottom, you don't get a microbubble problem in those systems.

I think of the bubbles produced by a wood air "stone" that is used in air driven protein skimmers. I have one laying around, maybe this is not the type of air stone to use?

Jnad

[Floyd R Turbo]

jnad, are those a special kind of airstone? Why wood I wonder. I would think any airstone that is reef safe would work.

[jnad]

jnad, are those a special kind of airstone? Why wood I wonder. I would think any airstone that is reef safe would work.

It produce micro bubbles, they are so small that inside the skimmer the mix of water and air look milky. It is not the same type of air stone that is used in fresh water, it is an Aqua Medic product.

Jnad

[Floyd R Turbo]

you mean these

http://www.aqua-medic.com/products/accessories-protein-skimmers-saltwater/

[kerry]

I would think it would be ok Jnad.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hmmm would a smaller amount of bigger faster travelling bubbles work better or worse than much larger amount of much smaller and slower travelling bubbles provided by a wooden airstone?

[kerry]

I wonder about maybe making a "V" screen for my second design to see how more direct air contact would make.

[Floyd R Turbo]

you mean a UAS double screen in a V shape?

[tebo]

Without a doubt the best ideas are the simplest

Congratulations to come to see this design as simple and efficient

A few weeks ago I started to change my sump and put my screen over the tank fed by the closed loop, this to be plugged into a SCWD, it gives water about 40 seconds and 40 seconds without water, it was about to comment that growth was significantly higher, which made me understand that the need for air for good growth of algae is necessary, and now confirmed with this hehehe

Here is a photo
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02554.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02575.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02574.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02576.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02578.jpg


I really thank you very much Santa Monica

[kerry]

you mean a UAS double screen in a V shape?
Yes Sir.


Looks good Tebo.

[jnad]

you mean these

http://www.aqua-medic.com/products/accessories-protein-skimmers-saltwater/

Yes

[SantaMonica]

Do you think i can use this scrubber with some modifications? Here is a link to the scrubber:
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/show...=Jnad+scrubber

Certainly.


do you think there will be problems with micro bubbles escaping from the scrubber to the main display when using air stone in the scrubber placed inside the main display.

Got this taken care of, soon. However you can control bubble size by choosing airstones.


I think you are correct on the water eliminating the burning

It probably will help with this, but maybe even more useful will be the "lens" or "diffractor" effect which should help to spread out the LED light and reduce spotting.


would a smaller amount of bigger faster travelling bubbles work better or worse than much larger amount of much smaller and slower travelling bubbles

Bigger helps move the strands out of the way.


I would think a double screen would be similar to a dual single sided screen.

No, because each screen would be 1-sided.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I just got my 6" airstone. I can't remember the last time I was more excited to spend $1.99.

[kerry]

I gotta dig mine out, I know I got a couple stashed in the old FW box that is packed up. I found some tiny round ones last night after I read the email message and looked at the post. I just have to dig a little deeper I guess or fork out the big money like you did this Friday, if so its going to feel funny buying an air stone, my local is going to think I lost my mind or Saltwater tanks LOL!! To bad I got out of state family stuff going on tonight, I sure could get on built in a hurry.

[SantaMonica]

I think there will also be a good power savings with the pump; the one I posted was running on 3 watts.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Unfortunately I didn't get mine done today. I am trying to finish up the e-shine scrubber for Spotter. You'll see that one on RC soon BTW. And I'm going to send him a type-2 mod kit that will arrive on May 1st I believe.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah good savings all around. Even with my box modded for type-2 there's no need for much of anything beyond a maxijet 900, and even that might be too much. I'm thinking one of those tiny eheim compact pumps, basically just enough to push water through and not too fast. Gonna get going on the LED fixture now that the kids are in bed

[jnad]

Hello!

I have just tested the Aqua Medic Air Wood "stone" that i mentioned in previous post.

I did run the air stone with a screen just like SM have in his goldfish test in my 15 gallon nano reef, this stone is no good in "in tank" setup, there was micro bubbles all over the display. This air stone produce way too small bubbles to be run directly in the display tank.

The shops is open tomorrow, i will try to find another air stone that produce bigger bubbles.

Jnad

[Floyd R Turbo]

I just got a $2 6" blue airstone from my LFS. haven't tested it yet but that's the task today, along with finishing up my LED fixtures. bwahaha

[SantaMonica]

Yes I think the wood ones are very fine bubbles.

[spideybry]

Picked up a 6" air stone and a 12" air stone as well as a pump. I am debating on how I want to set this up in a small tank. I am really temped to cycle a small reef tank with this and see how it holds up.

[jnad]

Just came home from my local fish shop with a new air stone (10 cm long), the screen i am going to use is 14 cm wide so i think it will be a good fit.

I did notice that my local fish shop also had an alternative to the regular air stones that maybe could be used. It was a thin tube with tiny holes, i think it will produce a kind of narrow carpet of bubbles and the tube could be cut to the desierd length. Dont know the size of bubbles this tube make, but it could be perfect for a in tank one sided screen? Or maybe there should be bubbles on both sides of the screen even if the screen only have light on only one side?

I hope i get the scrubber up running today or tomorrow at latest, i will post some pictures then.

jnad

[kerry]

I want to get mine going to!!! I have to at least get my stand screwed together for my 150G and maybe some ro/di in it. Its all cut and stained! I hope this first testing leads to a good idea for my 150G!!! I plan to have something up by today as I have got all my 6 acres of grass cut during the week so I would have time this weekend to get the new tech going. So excited, I feel like one of my kids awaiting a gift????? How corny is that LOL.

[jnad]

Just have run the new air stone with screen, this stone have the right size bubbles:)

But i still have a bubble problem to be solved, the problem is no longer micro bubbles in the display, but the huge amount of air bubbles exploding in the surface almost make my floor wet :)

My nano reef have a open top and the bubbles exploding in the surface make a lot of splashing, even my display light get wet.

I will try to build a simple enclosed box to have the screen inside, just like a co-current protein skimmer leting the air out on the top trough a hole in the top. I think the box only will have an opening in the bottom just like a co-current skimmer. When the water are sucked in tru the open bottom and rises upwards with the air bubbles there have to be water going downvards an out of the box.

I will figure something out

Jnad

[kerry]

No, I feel its the same really. I had a horizontal that was under about a 1/4"-ish+ of water on my 10G SW with out any issues at all besides it was not as efficient as the vertical. The tank still acted the same after I switched it to vert, the only difference was I could feed more. I have another horizontal still on my 10G pod tank which is 80% out of the water and those numbers on that tank were comparable to the underwater one.

[SantaMonica]

huge amount of air bubbles exploding in the surface

Just tape a piece of plastic to the tank wall, that sticks out over the water like a cover.

[srusso]

SM - to what extent have you tested this new design? Just what has been uploaded here?

[jnad]

Finally, the bubble problem is solved, thanks SM.

The "in tank" test scrubber is now up running and i am very satisfied with the result.

Only have to fix the light, but that is easy, will fix the light later today, just have to decide what light to use, i have three different light alternatives. I have one cfl 11W , one cfl 18 PL-L (this is a longer type with two parallel tubes and external ballast), or i can use the two led lights i am using on my current scrubber.

Any suggestions for what light to use?

I will post some pictures when ready with the light, should i start a separate tread or post here?

Jnad

[SantaMonica]

I've tested several of them, which is where the other embodiments came from.

For lights, it should be same requirements.

Make new post here and I'll separate them to a new thread.

[jnad]

Hello!

Light is now in place on the scrubber, i used the cfl 18W PL-L tube.

It is to late to post pictures now, i post the pictures tomorrow, it will be 1-day of running then :)

Good night

Jnad

[SantaMonica]

Cut the screen so it's only as wide as the bubbles. And you can put a sheet of black or flexible reflector behind it.

[srusso]

I've tested several of them, which is where the other embodiments came from.

do you have test pictures of these tanks?

[SantaMonica]

No, they were scraps here and there in the sump, etc.

[SantaMonica]

I moved the goldfish and UAS back to the 10g fw after letting the screen dry out for a few days, and it's now got bright green spots on it again at day 3.

[tebo]

Santamonica, hi

if not already placed, but just wondering, the water flow remains the same, or now with this design is lower??

[SantaMonica]

Not sure what you mean by water flow.

[tebo]

35gph per inch

[SantaMonica]

There is no water flow, only air flow. After a few people show their results, we'll come up with a recommended air flow rate.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I was trying to think of a way to force the airflow to come out of the stone directly below the screen instead of from the sides and bottom of the airstone to ensure that it will all fully rub the screen. I came up with an idea on the way into work today. Seal the bottom of the airstone with reef-safe epoxy (safer). I like the epoxy option myself because that also weighs down the stone and you can make a "base" that would force it to sit flat and in position. For the trapezoidal airstone I bought, I would wrap the epoxy around the base and 1/2 way up the sides, which would force or "route" the bubbles right up on the screen. Also since the bubbles will be more concentrated on the screen vs flying off sideways, you could get away with a smaller air pump. Right now I'm using a double-outlet pump and tying the outlets together to get what I consider enough air flowing across the screen.

This could also be done for a round airstone, though it might not be quite as necessary since the bubbles from a round stone should naturally wrap up around the stone toward the top.

Also I have found that if you put the screen in a box, you had better have a tight fitting lid that is also cross-braced. Water droplets on the underside of the lid are large and if it were not tight fitting with tabs on the inside to keep it from moving, it would probably have slid off from the water getting under it. Ther is a bit of salt creep after 2+ days of operating, but not much, luckily. No growth noticable as of 9pm yesterday (start of photoperiod #3)

[kerry]

I have been to busy to get one going!! Its killing me!!! Anyway have you thought about using one of those round disc like air stones? I think I might do that.

[SantaMonica]

Any stone should work. I just thought the long ones would be easier to attach tie wraps.

[Floyd R Turbo]

no you wouldn't want to do that, because the air would only hit the screen that was directly over the disc, 90% of the bubbles would miss it. Unless you had the screen slanted. However then you may only have a single-sided screen, as eventually the algae would grow over it and bubbles would not make it thorough the screen material, leaving the other side to die.

[SantaMonica]

As the bubbles rise, however, they narrow their path and "suck up" to the screen.

[jnad]

Cut the screen so it's only as wide as the bubbles. And you can put a sheet of black or flexible reflector behind it.

Tried to cover up the light with a sheet of black pvc today but the pvc float:(. I have to use something that not float

Is the flexible reflector safe to use in the tank?

Jnad

[SantaMonica]

I had it in my sump for a few months.

[SantaMonica]

I think the bright green growth is preferred by pods. I've noticed that if I'm not feeding a lot, and the growth is not a lot, it will get bald spots on the screen.

[SantaMonica]

Who gets to report the first specs of green? :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Funny you should ask, I just got home and checked it, will post a pic on my thread in a sec...specs of brown right now actually

[MorganAtlanta]

I started on a 1-ish cube in-tank UAS, but it will be a couple weeks until the LEDs come in. One trick is that the tank is in my son's bedroom, so the scrubber needs to have virtually zero light leakage. I've got an acrylic box mostly done. It looks a bit like an overflow box, but the flow will come in the bottom and out the slots at the top. The box is around 5.5"x11". The screen will be roughly 5x7, single sided, with the lights on the outside of the tank. Magnets on the acrylic box will match up with magnets on the heatsink to hold them both in place. The plan is to put it on a 15 gallon freshwater tank to start with, but I'm hoping to start a 30-ish gallon nano reef before too long. The in-tank UAS, will turn any tank into an all-in-one. Pretty cool.

[tebo]

Well I have two days with the installation, the screen is the same size as the other and I have the same lighting, and still no growth, I ask, what will the best small or large bubble

no3: 2ppm
po4: 0.1ppm


regards

[SantaMonica]

Probably big. But you can try both.

[jnad]

Who gets to report the first specs of green? :)

I have som kind of color and growth for a couple of days, it is difficult to define the growth and color because of the location of the screen.

I also have snails eating from the screen, they love it :). I think "in tank" scrubbers should be constructed snail safe.

Jnad

[jnad]

Hmm, a couple of big snails are making race tracks on the screen :)

[SantaMonica]

You can put some mesh around it.

[srusso]

Hmm, a couple of big snails are making race tracks on the screen :)

Is that a bad thing? I say let nature do what it will. Maybe we have the first 100% "clean less" scrubber, or at least as long it's groomed well, clean when needed...

[SantaMonica]

No, you need to get the nutrients out of the tank.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

No, you need to get the nutrients out of the tank.


Harvest the snails then! ;)

[jnad]

Hello!

I give the snails another week, if it still is a problem i will enclose/make a box to put the screen in. It will still be "in tank" though.

I have some kind of growth, not like the growth with the waterfall scrubber. The screen seems to fill up with some kind of fur, and it is even over the whole screen, it is the same fur in high light, low light and backside area of the screen. Just short growth, but it is there.

Jnad

[SantaMonica]

It will take some time to figure out the best running conditions. The waterfall version went for a year or two before it was realized that you need stronger light; until then it only grew dark brown or black.

[jnad]

It will take some time to figure out the best running conditions. The waterfall version went for a year or two before it was realized that you need stronger light; until then it only grew dark brown or black.

That is the reason i think it is exiting to participate in this group, testing for the right conditions.

I find another big advantage whith this upstream scrubbers, when using this "in tank" version in my nano reef the evaporation is mutch less. I guess my previous scrubber with an overflow edge outlet design resulted in increased evaporation.

Jnad

[tebo]

Well I have a 5 days after the system boots, two-sided illumination with 660 nm LED, 6 per side, at a distance of 6 cm of the mesh, even with some bubbles down, but still no growth of algae

photoperiod 20 on 4 off

regards

[SantaMonica]

Nothing on the edges?

[tebo]

When I get home I see in more detail

[SantaMonica]

I am thinking that a UAS screen will be able to handle much stronger light than a waterfall. The 11 watt CFL I'm running now is only a half inch from the screen, and the growth is still dark green, and it's mostly directly in front of the bulb. I'm seeing white patches farther away from the bulb, and I'm guessing that the pods are eating the growth faster than it can grow there. I've not seen any yellow growth at all, like I did with the waterfall on this same tank.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would like to believe the stronger light idea, but right now I'm defying that. I have 6x 660 and 1x 455 on each side running at 700mA and 1.5" front the screen on average and zero green for over 10 days. Maybe SW just takes longer, or LEDs are just too intense. I guess those are the big questions right now.

[SantaMonica]

They don't have one yet.

What's the measurements? I have pretty high N.

[Floyd R Turbo]

in which tank? The goldfish tank or your 90?

[SantaMonica]

Gold. Maybe if higher lighting is needed, then lower lighting would not grow much with lower nutrinets.

[Doompie]

I have the parts settled, need to find time too install it nicely. Hopefully this weekend..

[tebo]

floyd I started on 12 this month, for work I could not closely monitor growth, but the eye has not grown anything at all to this day, back pages discuss the values ​​and settings, nothing has changed

I'm still a little frustrated

regards

[SantaMonica]

I forgot to mention that I went from 24 watts on the waterfall, to 11 watts on the UAS.

[kerry]

I bought an 11 per your advice.

[srusso]

I forgot to mention that I went from 24 watts on the waterfall, to 11 watts on the UAS.

FYI - I am using a 23w for the test

[kerry]

I have an 11w on my 10G and a 23w on my 125G. Both basic ones in the tank with a stone.

[MorganAtlanta]

I'm waiting on my red LEDs to come in. Should be this week. I've got a 15g FW I'll be putting it on. 5x7 screen, single sided in the tank.

[MorganAtlanta]

Unfortunately, the release of this also has lined up with the go-live of the software for my startup. A bit busy these days, and the wife would kill me if she knew I was starting (yet) another aquarium project.

[tebo]

Last night I finally can stop the system and throw a close look at the screen, in effect I have a slight brown algae growth throughout the mesh, let's give it another week to see how it goes, really for my system as conceived maintenance is very difficult with this method, safe return to the previous configuration

Anyway finish the complete test results and to give appropriate support to this new method, designed from the start will be much more comfortable than the previous

regards

[tebo]

Well today I decided to make a change, find out why not grow the algae, it was easier than I thought, poorly assembled, look at these photos

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02658.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02659.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b440/tebomarino/DSC02660.jpg

My mistake was the little bubbles contact with the mesh

I see that is not related to the size of the bubble, only important good contact withthe mesh, I can not say the growth stage, the worse I can say my screen to date has 10 days 22/04/2012

regards

[SantaMonica]

The bubbles only rubbed the screen at the bottom?

[SantaMonica]

I'm noticing now, that after a cleaning the screen will appear to grow but will have white spots on the screen from pods, presumably from micro pods. As nutrients build up in the water, all of a sudden on about the 3rd day, the screen is covered in green the next morning, presumably because the growth was so fast (catching up with nutrients) that the micro pods could not keep up.

At least that's how the current size screen, with the current lighting, with the current feeding, is working. This of course does not explain why the same does would not occur in a waterfall. Or maybe it does, but the waterfalls or so much better operated that it's not noticed.

[Floyd R Turbo]

tebo, did you start with a brand new screen, or with an existing screen from your other scrubber?

[SantaMonica]

Measurements today with a full screen: 0, 0, 5

[tebo]

The bubbles only rubbed the screen at the bottom?

yes only there



tebo, did you start with a brand new screen, or with an existing screen from your other scrubber?

Clean the old completely, then scrape again and then clean it, then put in place

The truth is that basically got the same growth in the previous configuration, which was where the bubbles hit, the rest just passed by without touching the screen

The important thing is as you said santa monica, contact of the bubbles with the screen should be complete

[Floyd R Turbo]

Clean the old completely, then scrape again and then clean it, then put in place

The truth is that basically got the same growth in the previous configuration, which was where the bubbles hit, the rest just passed by without touching the screen

The important thing is as you said santa monica, contact of the bubbles with the screen should be complete

Ok, good to know, because we all started with a brand new screen and your looked like you were getting much more growth! I'm guessing about half that try this will do it with their current screen.

[Floyd R Turbo]

The only comment I have is on the LEDs, when you say 2 LEDs and a total of 6 watts, that is only one LED per side of a 3x4 screen. it kind of depends on the current you push through them. But 1 led for a 3x4 screen is probably a good start, probably a minimum, assuming it's running at full power. 2 LEDs per side at 2W would probably be better. And again nothing is fully proven as far as distance from the screen. Lots of unknowns. What will probably happen is anyone who has a current screen will put that cured screen underwater and will end up with immediate results, while people starting from scratch will get different results such as like what I am getting.

[MorganAtlanta]

I've got the LEDs done and the "upflow" box done. I hope to get it installed this weekend, but between the soccer games, tennis matches and scout meetings, we'll see.

[michael007]

Love it!! I kinda guessed that this was the new direction and have been planning ever since SM dropped the air stone hint... I have planned to knock up a acrylic box kinda like a sm100 on its side (standing tall) next to the tank. Im going to use two long strips of canvas around 2 x 16 each. I am going to zip tie some kind of wieght ( probly a acrylic rod, I have a friend in the plastics industry, ) to the screens to wieght them down and have a 4 inch air stone in the bottom. This will allow me to just slip them out one by one out of the top for easy cleaning. It will pump into the bottom and overflow back into the tank.... I was thinking to really slow down the supply flow to the box to increase contact time???
I am going to test with just one sided light, being a 2 x 24w t5. Thats 64 inches at 48watts, hmmmm.... how do you think this will fair...
has anyone experienced long green hair with these yet.... how does the air fair in keeping the hair suspended.....ha... thats a bit of poetry...

mick

[kerry]

You were on the right track!!

[SantaMonica]

Mine get really thick green by 7 days. I'll post it soon.

[Jason]

Why have I never seen this topic ?? it's great !!!!!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Michael, the only thing I would be concerned about with building a tall narrow box is that you HAVE to know what you're doing when building the box. Seams are under a lot of pressure at 24" under water, no matter how much volume you have it's the same amount of pressure, because it's dependent on the water column. In fact, I just ran that through the Cyro calculator (24 H x 7 W, no eurobrace) and it says you need more than 1/4". It says 0.271 and 1/4" is typically .236 (all brands are metric except Polycast and maybe Reynolds) so you have to go to .354 of 3/8" for this depth of box. Also you seams are going to have to be pretty good or they could blow out. Remember you are not building a box like the DAS, you are basically building an aquarium so you have to treat it like one.

But regardless of that, why go T5HO? Why not just DIY LED? As soon as my build gets posted you'll see an example.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Jason, it was posted for a few people to test and it was just 'revealed' - a few days early...

[Jason]

So, this is th NEW DESIGN SM is bragging about ??

That's cool, so now my sump will be even better and 1 pump removed is heat removed as well from the water :)

Sweet !

[crashmushroom]

Sm would i be right in saying another plus to this design if i get a power out while im in work or away my scrubber wont die?

[crashmushroom]

Floyd when you get the upflow boxes perfected if you can ship to ireland let me know :-)

[srusso]

So, this is th NEW DESIGN SM is bragging about ??

That's cool, so now my sump will be even better and 1 pump removed is heat removed as well from the water :)

Sweet !


Yes, a few of us tested a month early. Our results will be released soon.

[srusso]

Sm would i be right in saying another plus to this design if i get a power out while im in work or away my scrubber wont die?

Yep

[crashmushroom]

Cool

[Ace25]

Sorry to say, I am extremely disappointed with this design. I was expecting something a little more revolutionary, not something akin to sticking a screen inside a skimmer and putting lights on it. I will be sticking with the old design for several reasons. Airpumps are noisy and fail often when the diaphragm goes out, airstones clog easily and create lots of salt spray, and the biggest reason, I can't see anyway to incorporate this into my overflow, which by doing so means all my water gets filtered over the screen.

[Garf]

Sorry to say, I am extremely disappointed with this design. I was expecting something a little more revolutionary, not something akin to sticking a screen inside a skimmer and putting lights on it. I will be sticking with the old design for several reasons.

I'm sure that you will be able to convert these concerns you have, into strengths on the new design. I actually have a nice green algae growing on my relatively new screen where it goes into the sump, obviously powered by the stray light that everyone tries to eliminate. Two inches of my screen is under water and the areas with most bubble action definitely has the best growth after 3 days.

[Ace25]

How do you eliminate the noise of the air pump? I have 7 tanks running in my living room, the 1 airpump I have on my clownfish tank is by far the loudest thing in the room, and it is padded and suspended and still noisy as hell, and it was a brand new pump. How do you ensure the airstone stays clean and creates an even distribution of bubbles? How do you make this work in anything other than an external box like Floyd made? And lastly, does it matter if the algae grows better at the bottom of the screen if the algae is doing what it is supposed to be doing already on the old design, which is reduce N/P down to near 0.

Just my opinion... but again, I see no benefit to this design, only a lot of drawbacks.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ace I agree it probably won't work for everyone in every situation, but keep in mind this is the first technology/embodiment and there are more to come. However it was brought up very early in the test group that this would work perfectly for your clownfish breeding system because there's no way for the fish to get sucked in/blown around, really. Worst case is that they take a trip up the air wall LOL

[Ace25]

If I put something like this on my clown tank (which I agree, is probably one of the better uses for this), how do I avoid the salt creep all over my walls and carpet? Big airstones that create fine bubbles are a nightmare in saltwater.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well that is definitely a concern. I have found that the plastic canvas itself is excellent at preventing salt creep when placed just above the water surface. I have a BeanAnimal overflow and it's in a small sump, so I have a ton of turbulent flow (3000 GPH going through a 2-3g intake chamber) and I placed a piece of this stuff kind of right on top of the water and it builds up salt creep but keeps it right there. So that is one solution.

The other in-tank solution (not the company LOL) would be to make a small 3-sided box with one side wider than the screen and the ends something like an inch wide so that the screen could be inside the box with the box against the side of the tank (box could be made black to block light too). Then the sides would extend up above the water level and there would be a top attached to that which would stop water from any bubbles that pop.

Also we're not talking about skimmer-size micro bubbles. That was brought up early (using wooden airstones) and was somewhat dismissed due to the microbubble issue and also because medium and larger bubbles create more of a random back and forth motion (at least that's the theory) so you don't really "need" tons of small bubbles. Just a decent amount of them, and they MUST rub the screen (I experienced non-growth when they didn't for the first week).

As far as the need for massive amounts of bubbles, it's not really clear whether or not you need a really small pump (which is all I use) or a larger pump. I use a 6" air wand and a pump that I used to use on my small sponge filter on my 10g FW tank way back when.

[Ace25]

Here is probably the biggest issue I have with this whole thing, it was thought of almost a year ago, and in that time SM hasn't been able to make a "proof of concept" version with a video showing it works.

I was thinking more about my clown tank. I was going to make one... but then I thought of something, how in the heck would I light the screen? I certainly don't want to put high powered LEDs pointing into the tank itself, the clownfish will be blind in a day just from a single blue LED. Ya, you can make a box like you said, but that is getting to be so much more work than just making the old style.

Not trying to be a downer, just realistic. There are A LOT of bugs to be worked out here, and I still can't see how all of them can be overcome (like the airpump noise and failure rate).

[C-Horse]

Wow! A neat concept. I joined the forum just to help in working out the design. The air pump noise may be fixed by the right air pump. I come from the planted tank side of the hobby and have tried several air pumps. The most quiet one that I have used is the 10 gal Tetra Whisper. It is also quite strong. Check out the reviews on Amazon.

[Ace25]

LOL, that is EXACTLY the pump I am using, the Tetra Whisper 10G one, and it is literally 10x louder than anything else in my room. First week it was pretty quiet, since then it has been extremely annoying, and from past experience, you are lucky to get 6 months out of them before the diaphragm needs replacing.

With my overflow ATS, I have no noise and no parts that need replacing or cleaning other than the screen. I am extremely happy with my overflow ATS, so happy with it that there would need to be someone revolutionary to get me to switch. I proved last year that air flow makes algae grow better when I put a fan over my screen and got 2x the growth, so this is nothing new to me.

I really need to see one of these working to even think it is going to be better than the old, and this thread is 15 pages long and not one post showing it works.. that says something to me.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Here is probably the biggest issue I have with this whole thing, it was thought of almost a year ago, and in that time SM hasn't been able to make a "proof of concept" version with a video showing it works.

I was thinking more about my clown tank. I was going to make one... but then I thought of something, how in the heck would I light the screen? I certainly don't want to put high powered LEDs pointing into the tank itself, the clownfish will be blind in a day just from a single blue LED. Ya, you can make a box like you said, but that is getting to be so much more work than just making the old style.

Not trying to be a downer, just realistic. There are A LOT of bugs to be worked out here, and I still can't see how all of them can be overcome (like the airpump noise and failure rate).



Whenever someone has a new idea or when a new product is launched, there are always people who immediately say

"That won't be any good".

It was the same with the original scrubber.


Why not just see how it develops before you condemn it?

[Ace25]

Because this idea is a year old and in that time there is no proof it works. I know, only a month of others testing it but still, in a year Santa Monica hasn't been able to produce one and shows that it works? Little odd don't you think?

There is a difference between saying "algae won't work" vs saying a certain design isn't the best idea. Santa Monica tells people daily that their designs are substandard on the old method. Horizontal screens bad, double layer screens bad, heck for quite a while SM said LEDs were bad until enough of us proved him wrong.

For me, algae works great, no question there.. this design on the other hand, I can see so many flaws already that it doesn't seem like a good idea for the vast majority. Sure, there may be a small percentage of people/tanks that this will work better, but for the vast majority, the old way seems much better.

My challenge, PROVE ME WRONG that this is a better, cheaper, easier method than the old way. In the end, the results are going to be the same, 0 N/P if done correctly, right? So how is needing more equipment (air pump and stone) that require more work than the old method better. Those 2 items wear out fairly quickly and will need replacing, at least once a year, more likely 2x a year for the pump and 4x a year for the air stone.

[Garf]

Whenever someone has a new idea or when a new product is launched, there are always people who immediately say

"That won't be any good".

It was the same with the original scrubber.


Why not just see how it develops before you condemn it?

This attitude can be irritating to some people, but it can also be very useful in improving a system rapidly. Ace has obviously decided that for him it won't work, and will keep on finding faults with the design. This is good. Occasionally he will come up with something that results in a system improvement. I don't think these types of people wait to see how things develope, they force development. Keep 'em coming ACE25.

[Jason]

So it can be considered by some members as a Xnd style of scrubber.


In the end, the results are going to be the same, 0 N/P if done correctly, right?

Exactly !

[Ace25]

Just made a quick video.. original audio so you can hear the insanely loud Tetra Whisper 10 airpump. Can't hear anything else in the room over the stupid pump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ5rprW4S-s

Funny thing is I have to crank my speakers up to hear it in the video because the sound in the room is so loud. I find it amazing that between all my tanks/equipment that this one little pump is so much louder than anything else I have. If I put the pump under the stand, it acts like a speaker box and makes it even louder.

[SantaMonica]

if i get a power out while im in work or away my scrubber wont die

Correct. At least not from drying out. If it sat there for 3+ days, it would die from lack of light.


How do you eliminate the noise of the air pump

The small pumps I've used are silent. If larger pumps are needed, they can be placed as far away as needed, with no reduction in air flow.


How do you ensure the airstone stays clean and creates an even distribution of bubbles

Doesn't need to stay clean. Growth is growth, on the screen or on the stone. Or you could shade it. And just like a slot, it would be self-correcting: if some growth slowed the air flow, that section would slow down in growth, and would direct more air to the less-growing sections.


how do I avoid the salt creep all over my walls and carpet?

Put a plastic sheet over that part of the top.


SM hasn't been able to make a "proof of concept" version with a video showing it works.

How do you know this?


There are A LOT of bugs to be worked out here

Been working on them for year.


So how is needing more equipment (air pump and stone) that require more work than the old method better

Less equipment: Just pump and stone. No water pump or plumbing.

[Ace25]

Not putting syran wrap over my open top tank.. sorry, I want open top for a reason. Only thing plastic wrap will do is stop the spray but then the plastic gets coated with salt creep which blocks the display lighting. Plus that is a very "ghetto" method IMO. Using plastic in order to use the "MorganAtlanta" style method instead of a slot is one thing, that plastic is hidden from view in a sump or box, so that is different than putting plastic wrap over a section of the display tank.

How do I know you don't have a proof of concept? Well, 15 pages in, and no pictures or videos showing proof of concept from you. If you had one that works in saltwater, I would have thought you would have posted it in this thread before you made it public. Seems silly to spend a year posting around the internet about this great new method, then you finally release the info on that method and can't show anything about it.

Been working on the bugs for a year... and this is the best you come up with, zip tying a screen to an airstone? Sorry, I am just so disappointed with all the hype that went into this and it turns out to be something I can pick apart in the first minute of reading about it.

Less equipment? Plumbing cost me less than a good quality ceramic airstone, certainly less than an air pump.. and my return pump feeds my ATS for the most part. So yes, if done with the overflow style waterfall method it is much cheaper. I would put $ on the old style working better (due to the boundary layer being much bigger, which is what you always say is what makes the ATS work, right?). You have critters to worry about with this new method (sure, you can stop snails, but what about large pods?), you have algae breaking loose from the turbulent air bubbles to worry about, you have both an airstone that will clog up rather quickly along with an airpump that won't last more than 12 months. I have no equipment I need to worry about on my current ATS. If my return pump fails, I have a backup, but it is a quality pump (eheim 1262) that has worked non-stop for 7+ years without a hiccup. I spent a good 10 years dealing with air stones in other hobbies, they do clog up quickly, and when they do you get one or two spots that let out large bubbles, the rest of the stone is clogged, so that will make this method not work if the stone clogs up like I have seen countless times in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJum36nEuXk

[joelespinoza]

Make it out of 2 pieces, held together by magnets. The outside is a black plexi box with an exposed heatsink on the back and exposed LEDs on the front that are held 1.5" away from the glass and magnets around the outside.

The inside (in the tank) is a black plexi box that has an encased heatsink, and encased LEDs and holds the screen nearly right up against the glass (with room for bubbles) and 1.5" away from the LEDs on the inside. It has magnets around the outside and you fill the compartment that has the heatsink and LEDs with mineral oil (so the LEDs and Heatsink are submerged in oil) then seal it up tight. With mineral oil the cooling of the in tank LEDs is not an issue and there is no compression issues, since it is non compressible, as long as you can seal it well you could use any thickness of plastic in any depth tank.

Then run vent tubes from the inside box up to the surface with a 90 degree bend at the surface to slow the bubbles.

The idea is clear in my mind I will try to use sketchup to draw some pictures, although I suck at it so the result might be lackluster. But I think the idea is very sound and workable.

[Ace25]

LOL.. ya, that sounds WAAAY complicated. I have run computer motherboards in mineral oil as an experiment, so I know that works, but no way am I putting a container of mineral oil anywhere near my tank where there is even the slightest possibility it could end up in the tank. I think the idea is to make it as simple as possible.. your method sounds far from that, but if you wanted to do it I can't see any reason to say "no, don't do it" if your willing to do the work and take safety precautions. :D

[srusso]

Ace, I know how your feeling. I had a very similar reaction at first, ask Floyd... I have had one running now for a little and it has "grown" on me! Hahaha no pun intended! At this point, to me... the UAS is design a "design option" and until proven wrong I believe it will be the "easy build" for many and would in most cases run as a secondary filter. (I hope I am wrong) Having said that, I am sure when the first skimmer was built, it was hardly the coolest looking or best working equipment in the hobby, nor was the first bucket design. Over time this design can be built into something amazing... But it wont be that "DIY-able". Think HOB filters with built in air pumps, or canister designs, I even had a moment thinking about a skimmer-scrubber...! You have to see the "bucket waterfall" design here... this thing is brand new. SM I am sure has his reasons for not posting too much, but I will say there are threads not viewable by all... Hang in here with us, we need your support. Please build a test unit if you can, it maybe the "breeders scrubber" after all...

[fauxjargon]

I don't think the microbubbles will really be much of an issue either. Microbubbles are usually caused by turbulence, the bubbles produced by an airstone will generally be bigger and since they are 'traveling' upward by design, will tend to break at the surface. If you think about the usual sponge filter bubbler, or old undergravel filter with airstones at the bottom, you don't get a microbubble problem in those systems.

I agree, you never see microbubbles in those systems.

I think the new design is really good, what about using a venturi system on a powerhead to deliver the air instead? A venturi (like on maxijets or aquaclears) that comes after the impeller produces airstone like bubbles much more quietly... more of a white noise than a buzzing noise too. So if you build (slotted pipe, I know) an upside down waterfall scrubber and feed it water with bubbles mixed in by a venturi, you should get a quiet, reliable system.

However I think salt creep prevention, especially if you plan to not change a lot of water, is really very crucial. At the very least, make sure you do NOT get salt creep into your aquarium, take it out, and if your salinity slips over time, just add some salt to your top-off water.

The main problem I see in the new design is algae growing on the walls of the scrubber chamber/walls of the tank. Is this actually a problem?

I'm thinking about downsizing to a 15 gallon nano instead of getting out of the hobby entirely to focus on freshwater fish breeding. Of course one of these setups would be pretty awesome for raising baby fish...

I have to say, I thought the new scrubber would be horizontal, lit from above, water fed from below for some reason.

[Ace25]

I have to say, I thought the new scrubber would be horizontal, lit from above, water fed from below for some reason.
While the limitations are obvious by going horizontal, that is actually an intriguing idea. A 6x6 screen laying just below the water surface (because as we all know, most of the bad stuff in the water is at/near the surface), round air stone below and LEDs above. Seems that idea is much better than the original one. Obviously I would still have issues with the airpump/stone in a reef tank, but like you said, in a baby fish grow out tank it actually sounds like a great idea.

Quick and dirty to show what I mean. I have some magnetic frag racks I can put on the side/back in a corner and attach the screen to the frag racks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toGeYjLpkLM

[SantaMonica]

due to the boundary layer being much bigger, which is what you always say is what makes the ATS work, right?

No, smaller is better.


You have to see the "bucket waterfall" design here

Yes, there is a reason I posted this simple one first.


what about using a venturi system on a powerhead to deliver the air instead?

Taken care of :)


However I think salt creep prevention, especially if you plan to not change a lot of water, is really very crucial

Taken care of :)


The main problem I see in the new design is algae growing on the walls of the scrubber chamber/walls of the tank. Is this actually a problem?

A toothbrush should fix it.


one of these setups would be pretty awesome for raising baby fish

Yes fish do love to eat fresh green algae.

[fauxjargon]

While the limitations are obvious by going horizontal, that is actually an intriguing idea. A 6x6 screen laying just below the water surface (because as we all know, most of the bad stuff in the water is at/near the surface), round air stone below and LEDs above. Seems that idea is much better than the original one. Obviously I would still have issues with the airpump/stone in a reef tank, but like you said, in a baby fish grow out tank it actually sounds like a great idea.

Large complex molecules like proteins, ect... will tend to be attracted to the surface, but inorganic chemicals are not attracted to the air-water interface... which is why skimmers can't remove nitrates or phosphates directly.

I think that it would look really cool to do a freshwater tank with a giant RUGF based on algae instead of gravel, it would look pretty damn weird, but fish would absolutely thrive in that kind of environment.

I might just put a tank in a window with a vertical air-powered ATS in the back (hidden by black plastic) and let the sun do the work. Not to mention, anecdotally, freshwater fish (and I'm sure SW fish) do better when exposed to the sun and colour up better. My favorite tetra, Corynopoma Riisei, looks like it is carved out of opal when the sun hits it... more beautiful than anything I've ever seen in a reef tank.

[Ace25]

A ventri method is just like I said in my very first post, putting a screen inside a skimmer. Seems that isn't a good idea because of the microbubbles, are microbubbles now ok, a few hours later? This is SOOOO confusing having different information going around already.

And you confused the heck out of me.. boundary layer critical.. now less boundary layer is better?

[SantaMonica]

most of the bad stuff in the water is at/near the surface

You mean most of the good stuff (food, oils). The bad stuff (nitrate, phosphate) is invisible and concentrated more around the rocks and sand.

[Ace25]

Large complex molecules like proteins, ect... will tend to be attracted to the surface, but inorganic chemicals are not attracted to the air-water interface... which is why skimmers can't remove nitrates or phosphates directly.

Skimmers remove N/P, they just do it at an earlier stage when the compounds are in a state where they can attach to bubbles (larger food particles). Once they break down to raw elements of N/P, it won't attach to the bubbles to be removed, which is where algae comes in to play.

SM, there is a giant column of air bubbles below the screen that is at the surface, are you saying in an empty breeder tank the flow created by the air bubbles will not push the N/P to the surface where the screen is at?

[DennisC]

Just read all the way through and to say I am confused is putting it mildly.

Cheaper to make and run. What about the £150.00 I have spent over the last 3 months building an ATS. Wasted?

I have only been keeping SW fish for 7 years and I have never had any equipment in the DT except for power heads and they are neccessary. All my equipment goes into the sump, incl. my ATS.

I am with ACE25 so far untill I see some results from this new one.

Dennis

[Garf]

Just read all the way through and to say I am confused is putting it mildly.

Cheaper to make and run. What about the £150.00 I have spent over the last 3 months building an ATS. Wasted?

I have only been keeping SW fish for 7 years and I have never had any equipment in the DT except for power heads and they are neccessary. All my equipment goes into the sump, incl. my ATS.

I am with ACE25 so far untill I see some results from this new one.

Dennis

You have not wasted your money. It's still does what you wanted it to do. It's just there's a new kid on the block. Upgrade at your convenience.

[Jason]

Just stick with the 1 that works for you.

And maybe you'll try the airstone thingy just to satisfy your curiosity :)

[srusso]

I believe if you really think about it, this design is going to be much harder to DIY at the same levels the waterfall design has had success with... Much like a cone skimmer is much harder, if not impossible for a standard DIYer to make, this new design will get features that will be hard if not impossible to DIY...

[Garf]

How do you know what the design is. Perhaps I have missed a key post!

[Ace25]

How do you know what the design is. Perhaps I have missed a key post!
They are not posted yet, but a few people (you can see who they are, the ones that were posting in this thread before it went public) have additional information about the other revisions. They can't say what they are though, so no point in asking.

[Garf]

They are not posted yet, but a few people (you can see who they are, the ones that were posting in this thread before it went public) have additional information about the other revisions. They can't say what they are though, so no point in asking.

I think you may be surprised in how much work has gone on behind scenes. I love new concepts, right or wrong.

[Floyd R Turbo]

No we don't have any more information that you have by reading the original post. SM only revealed the design on post #1 to us so we know nothing except what has been described in the thread that has all those technology/embodiment release dates. I don't know if he will continue to give us a month-ahead peek but I'm guessing not.

Garf the design is in the original post of this thread.

[joelespinoza]

Make it out of 2 pieces, held together by magnets. The outside is a black plexi box with an exposed heatsink on the back and exposed LEDs on the front that are held 1.5" away from the glass and magnets around the outside.

The inside (in the tank) is a black plexi box that has an encased heatsink, and encased LEDs and holds the screen nearly right up against the glass (with room for bubbles) and 1.5" away from the LEDs on the inside. It has magnets around the outside and you fill the compartment that has the heatsink and LEDs with mineral oil (so the LEDs and Heatsink are submerged in oil) then seal it up tight. With mineral oil the cooling of the in tank LEDs is not an issue and there is no compression issues, since it is non compressible, as long as you can seal it well you could use any thickness of plastic in any depth tank.

Then run vent tubes from the inside box up to the surface with a 90 degree bend at the surface to slow the bubbles.

The idea is clear in my mind I will try to use sketchup to draw some pictures, although I suck at it so the result might be lackluster. But I think the idea is very sound and workable.

Ace my idea is not for a DIY project so much, this would be an advanced model that could be mass produced, 3-4 heights could cover 99% of all home aquariums, it would be efficient (dual sided LED), clean, and elegant. You could buy the scrubber put one side inside the glass and the other side outside the glass, slide in the screen, plug in the pump and turn it on. It could be easily cleaned and the bubbling would not be an issue.

A mineral oil filled device inside the tank is a bit scary, but if it is well sealed it should not be a problem. It has the advantage of being a non compressible medium so plexi thickness would not be a issue at any depth and you could cool LEDs easily while they are sealed inside the aquarium. That takes care of 2 major problems with high power LEDs inside an aquarium., it would also make the inside half slightly less bouyant.

[Ace25]

I think you may be surprised in how much work has gone on behind scenes. I love new concepts, right or wrong.
This one area is really not something you want to make those types of assumptions about. You know what they say about assumptions. ;) I can pretty much guarantee that there has not been a lot of work done behind the scenes on this new design by Santa Monica. It seems he is doing the same thing he did the first time around, release a general idea and let the hobbyist solve the issues for him. The fact Santa Monica can not post 1 single picture of this design working on a saltwater tank even after I called him out on in in this thread is really all I need to see. After a full year of having this idea, if it were me, I would have thousands of pictures showing how it works and progress shots week to week and the second I made it public those pictures would be proudly displayed in the first post.

I have a big issue with the conflicting information already posted. Early there was talk about bubble sizes/wooden airstones and those were ruled to not be good for this design, then Santa Monica hints at a ventri type design which IS a protein skimmer pump/method for creating fine bubbles. I asked again, which is it, fine bubbles are bad and don't work, or they are fine and do work..... no response.

Sorry to be the bad guy here, but I don't take anything at face value. I will listen to everything, study it myself, even experiment myself to see if it holds true, but this one I have already experimented with the parts (airpump/stone) and I know without a doubt it is not a good design. Anyone who has spent any amount of time with air pumps and stones will know how bad of an idea this is. There is a reason larger Protein skimmers stopped using them long ago (they clogged and needed to be replaced often).

Sorry Floyd... as you can see, even I made an assumption going off of Santa Monica's post. When he said the venturi pump alternative was already solved I assumed others were informed about this as well.

what about using a venturi system on a powerhead to deliver the air instead?
Taken care of

Bottom line, if I thought this was a great idea and would work better than the old method, I would be in here pointing out all the ways it is better, but unfortunately it did not turn out that way.

[joelespinoza]

The purpose of the airstone is to move water (nutrients) and air (CO2) accross the scrubber screen right? Chances are there is some gradient between how useful it is to use air vs a powerhead and aeration/CO2 saturation in the water.

I would imagine in a highly circulated reef tank a powerhead moving water upwards across the screen could probably provide a similar amount of CO2 as a bubbler,or at least sufficient for good growth. You may have to increase the flow of water but it seems reasonable. Where as in a mostly stagnant freshwater application a bubbler could be a far better choice.

[fauxjargon]

A ventri method is just like I said in my very first post, putting a screen inside a skimmer. Seems that isn't a good idea because of the microbubbles, are microbubbles now ok, a few hours later? This is SOOOO confusing having different information going around already.

And you confused the heck out of me.. boundary layer critical.. now less boundary layer is better?

A protein skimmer Venturi typically sucks air then puts it through the needle wheel to get tiny bubbles. A Venturi like the ones that goes on a powerhead outlet produces much larger bubbles.

[Ace25]

The purpose of the airstone is to move water (nutrients) and air (CO2) accross the scrubber screen right? Chances are there is some gradient between how useful it is to use air vs a powerhead and aeration/CO2 saturation in the water.

I would imagine in a highly circulated reef tank a powerhead moving water upwards across the screen could probably provide a similar amount of CO2 as a bubbler,or at least sufficient for good growth. You may have to increase the flow of water but it seems reasonable. Where as in a mostly stagnant freshwater application a bubbler could be a far better choice.
As Santa Monica once said to me, in his entire quote "Google algae Boundary Layer". ;) Man of few words.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2670467?uid=3739560&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698944050937
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3841037?uid=3739560&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698944050937

[Ace25]

A protein skimmer Venturi typically sucks air then puts it through the needle wheel to get tiny bubbles. A Venturi like the ones that goes on a powerhead outlet produces much larger bubbles.
So my AquaC Remora that uses a Maxijet 1200 w/venturi isn't the same thing? No needlewheel/pinwheel impeller, just an old fashion MJ1200 powerhead.

[michael007]

Thats what I want to know before I start experimenting... Does this method produce better/thicker/green HAIr algae per inch than the waterfall method. I personally think SM you should of realised the best design first and worried about the dodgy diy after. Most people that are serious about this hobby want there tanks clean and sleek. I am not going to put a screen dangling in my tank, I also have huge water movement in my tank and I dont even reckon I could get a screeen to stay vertical easily.
I have some ideas on how to build one for my tank but I want to know it is BETTER than my already succesfull waterfall. Im imagining that I could build a slimline type box hanging from behind my tank hidden completely, using some sort of venturi pump.... I guess that this is something that SM's final embodiment or whatever would look like... I just dont get the secerecy, I hoping that it is not just a money grab and is ACTUally a significant breakthrough in performance.....
cheers

mick

[Ace25]

Me, being to uber hobbyist with nothing else to do in life but research and experiment on reef tanks, decided to slap one together real quick and try it on my 60G. Everyone already knows my thoughts, but I wouldn't be a very good researcher if I simply dismissed the idea without even trying it as written. I put the airstone/screen it in the center of the sump which is a 20G tall tank. Ran into my first problem... screen won't stay vertical. I have it zip tied to a blue 12" airstone, screen is 12" long by 9" tall (still under water) and the screen just flops over to one side even with the air pump unrestricted. Suggestions?

[sklywag]

I thought I was in a time warp/lapse/something. I've been monitoring this post everyday and then all of a sudden it's 3 weeks in. That last 9 or 10 pages with in the last 12 hours? Crazy.

So, three weeks of design play and no posted pictures?

So the Floyd and SM100 style completly sealed with an inlet on the bottom on one end with airstone below it with the exit on top at the opposite end and flow will carry bubbles the length of the screen. Fed by overflow. Did I just describe a horizontal skimmer? Can I get the trademark/patent on that design? A skimmer body with a screen held down with weights minus the skimmer cup and the water just overflows out. Hm......

[SantaMonica]

Skimmers remove N/P

No, they don't


they just do it at an earlier stage when the compounds are in a state where they can attach to bubbles (larger food particles).

Food particles are not equal to N and P, any more than the smoke from a steak is equal to the steak. Skimmers remove the "steak", but leave the "smoke". Algae remove the "smoke", but leave the "steak".


there is a giant column of air bubbles below the screen that is at the surface, are you saying in an empty breeder tank the flow created by the air bubbles will not push the N/P to the surface where the screen is at?

Not sure what you mean, but an empty tank would be empty, except for bacterial films on the walls. In this case the N and P would be about the same throughout. And if any N or P were "pushed" to the surface, it would recirculate back down, following the current.


What about the £150.00 I have spent over the last 3 months building an ATS. Wasted?

That would be a different concern. But think about it this way: you learned of it here first, before any other site.


this design is going to be much harder to DIY

Like I was saying before, the simple versions are super easy to DIY but are ugly. The complex version are impossible to DIY, but are beautiful or invisible. That's what manufacturers are for.


additional information about the other revisions

Actually everyone now has the same info. The only descriptions of future designs are in the mfg section.


The purpose of the airstone is to move water (nutrients) and air (CO2) accross the scrubber screen right?

Yes. But also for the air-water interface to remove the boundary layer via turbulence.


I just dont get the secerecy

It's for licensing manufacturers.


Can I get the trademark/patent on that design?

If you could have, you can't now that you've said it.

[michael007]

Yes. But also for the air-water interface to remove the boundary layer via turbulence.

So this is a proven, more effective way of supplying algae with nutrients???

Thats what I reckon is the most important thing is. More bang for buck if you may. I might knock one up and let it compete against my vertical waterfall scrubber. just make them of equal size and lighting... WOuld this be a reasonable test??

[Floyd R Turbo]

Me, being to uber hobbyist with nothing else to do in life but research and experiment on reef tanks, decided to slap one together real quick and try it on my 60G. Everyone already knows my thoughts, but I wouldn't be a very good researcher if I simply dismissed the idea without even trying it as written. I put the airstone/screen it in the center of the sump which is a 20G tall tank. Ran into my first problem... screen won't stay vertical. I have it zip tied to a blue 12" airstone, screen is 12" long by 9" tall (still under water) and the screen just flops over to one side even with the air pump unrestricted. Suggestions?

Is there flow through the sump that is pushing the screen over?

[Rumpy Pumpy]

screen won't stay vertical. I have it zip tied to a blue 12" airstone, screen is 12" long by 9" tall (still under water) and the screen just flops over to one side even with the air pump unrestricted. Suggestions?


Had the same problem. I used some rubber suckers to anchor the top of the screen to the glass.

[Garf]

I started a thread a while back called Co2 turbo. I asked the question about perhaps injecting the ATS feed pump with Co2 or air. Surely the benefits of this new design is accomplished by doing just that. Lots of bubbles on the screen, more light than the new design, lot less messing around. Please point out where my logic is faulty.

[Doompie]

For anyone with an exsisting scrubber:

I came with this:
Raise the water level in de scrubber box a bit (approx total of 5 cm) and add air..See the results for your selfs..
My air bubbles even go up the waterfall a bit which makes the scrubber growth kick..

[SantaMonica]

more light than the new design

How is there more light?

[Garf]

How is there more light?

The previous version has only got a few mm of water to pass through.

[SantaMonica]

Yes there is more water to travel through, but I think that carbon was limiting in most waterfall situations, not light. Also, with LEDs, light is probably not going to be lacking at all.

[Garf]

Yes there is more water to travel through, but I think that carbon was limiting in most waterfall situations, not light. Also, with LEDs, light is probably not going to be lacking at all.

Agreed. That's why I am trialing my air injection method. If it works as I expect, co2 depletion should be a thing of the past. If it doesn't work, I will definitely try your method.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I started a thread a while back called Co2 turbo. I asked the question about perhaps injecting the ATS feed pump with Co2 or air. Surely the benefits of this new design is accomplished by doing just that. Lots of bubbles on the screen, more light than the new design, lot less messing around. Please point out where my logic is faulty.


Yesterday I started testing CO2 injection into the airflow of the new style scubber.

There was some concern that it might cause a large drop in PH but it's been running for 24 hours now with only a small effect on PH (8.5 to 8.3, so far), and it appears to be stable (reading hasn't changed since last night, 12 hours ago)


The next stage will be to set up two identical but separate upflow scrubbers, one with added CO2, and one without and see if it makes any difference to growth.

[michael007]

Ok... Here is the first build thread...... wahoo

I have been playing with the design of this for a while but was waiting for SM to see what was been trialled.... I knew that air injection was somehow going to benefit the algae we grow....

I have a mate that can supply and cut acrylic real cheap so this thing will probably cost me around $30 to make..... I will eventually build/source a Led fixture to light it...

HEre is a mock up of my design....

Screens will be weighted down by acrylic rods zip tied to the bottom of the screens. This way each screen can just be removed from the top of the box for cleaning.
I have a eden skimmer pump that has a venturi on it which I will use to feed the scrubber.
At the bottom of the scrubber box there is a feed pipe through a bulk head. This pvc pipe will be cut in half, like an open U that the acrilic rods can seat in. ( to ensure the screens are centred at all times)

The box is going to sit at the rear corner of the tank. (it is 3 x 3 x 20i)
The return will overflow back into the tank.... I have a glass pane across the top of the tank at the back that my current AtS sits on. I think I will run the return pipe all the way across it to help with the disipaition of bubbles before it returns into the tank.

I am just going to run my t5's on it for now but will upgrade to led when I feel I am where I want to be.....

I am also thinking of cutting up an old skimmer to try something cylindrical. I just think lighting something round is going to be an isssue.... But part of the fun I reckon.....

Will post results as they occur....I will be comparing the growth I get now from my vertical to this new design. Same tank, same feeding etc....

cheers

mick



Garf said: "Surely you will have to increase your feeding to give your new scrubber something to go at. You don't want to starve your new screen and skew your results."

Michael007 said: "I will take the vertical off line... I was just meaning I will compare the amount/type/ of growth I get now to the amount/type of growth i get from the new one...."

Sklywag said: "Did you see my post? Anyway. Besides the round skimmer. There are those HOB skimmers that are clear. CPR brand. If the tank sits far enough from the wall. You can easily fit LEDs on both sides(front & back)of it and paint the sides black. Cut out where the cup goes and hang the screen in it. That would be about 3" wide by 15" long."

[Garf]

For people with a ph controller, calcium reactor stuff lying around, life would be simpler. Just input co2 when the ph rises to the top limit through algae usage. Not an option for me to try unfortunately.

[Jason]

Adding CO2 ? I thought it was a "Simple less expensive" way of filtering a tank ?

And due by the size of my tank, i'll not put any "box" inside, even les if it contains mineral oil for cooling leds :(

What about "i go for vacation, 2-3 weeks" will it survive or the skimmer will be mandatory ? I know with a DSB it's possible
Hoe often will the bubbler stone/wood need changing due to clogging ?

[Garf]

I see the co2 experiment that Rumpy Pumpy is doing as more of a challenge to general beliefs. Everyone assumes that co2 injection will drastically lower ph but is that true. Anyway the air being pumped into the air stone or feed pump should contain enough co2 for general usage.

[Jason]

I know for FW aquaria, you need a lot of CO2 when the water is not soft enough do drop the PH level by a couple of points.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I see the co2 experiment that Rumpy Pumpy is doing as more of a challenge to general beliefs. Everyone assumes that co2 injection will drastically lower ph but is that true.


I think it is under "normal" conditions.

But when you run a calcium reactor, you're advised to aerate the outflow to "gas off" any extra CO2 dissolved in the water to prevent an effect on PH (as I understand it anyway, I stand to be corrected) - I guess that running CO2 enriched air through an airstone will achieve the same thing?


The idea is to increase the amount of CO2 available to the algae bed on the screen, without significantly changing the water chemistry of the system overall.

There is less than 0.04% CO2 in the air, so adding even a little CO2 to the airflow could have a big effect, theoretically.


Dunno if it's going to work, I'll let you know.

[Jason]

If it's that complicated to get a significant result over a standard design, why bother changing ? Except for "wannbe a scientist" fun experiments.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

If it's that complicated to get a significant result over a standard design, why bother changing ? Except for "wannbe a scientist" fun experiments.


There's a bit of that, sure.

But how else do you drive things forward? If everyone just settled for what we've got we'd all still be living in mud huts and eating grass wouldn't we?



Incidentally, it's not complicated to add CO2. Mine is just a plastic bottle with a bit of airline stuck through the lid and some sugar solution & yeast inside. It's making one bubble every 1 or 2 seconds at the moment.

[Jason]

But how else do you drive things forward? If everyone just settled for what we've got we'd all still be living in mud huts and eating grass wouldn't we?

I do agree, but i think i'll stay with the "old school" system :)

[joelespinoza]

I dont think the new version is meant to replace ALL waterfall designs, it is simply another option. Honestly where it really shines for me is the possibilities it opens for tanks that dont have a sump, and the possibilities for a generic design that is no harder to install than a HOB filter. I am undecided if I will make one like this or a waterfall design for my saltwater tank, but if I ever make a scrubber for my freshwater tanks it will be based on this design.


And due by the size of my tank, i'll not put any "box" inside, even les if it contains mineral oil for cooling leds :(


The mineral oil is my idea, not part of the original plan by SM. As I said the mineral oil solves 2 problems of LEDs inside a sealed enclosure under pressure. My idea was was for an easily removeable and cleanable fixture that could be mass produced. It was not an idea for a DIY fixture.

BTW: Everyone seems so worried about mineral oil in your aquarium and not saltwater in electronics inside your aquarium.... Why is that? Sure if ALL the mineral oil leaked out and covered the entire surface of the aquarium that would definately impede gas exchange.... Other than that does anyone know that mineral oil would even hurt critters in an aquarium?

Either way it should not be an issue to seal an acrylic box. Assemble it, seal it on all sides but one, then fill it 99% of the way with mineral oil, then seal the top on, and make sure it is watertight, you could just drop it in a container of water for a few hours and make sure no mineral oil floats to the top of the container, and make sure there is no water at the bottom of the fixture. Then put a layer of silicone over the outsides of all the seams just to be sure it wont leak.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

If you're going to seal LEDs in a waterproof box and submerge them in water, why do you need mineral oil?

Won't the water keep them cool enough?

[Jason]

And might need to buy a chiller after that !


LOL :)

[Ace25]

-deleted by Ace25- I never created this thread.

[joelespinoza]

If you're going to seal LEDs in a waterproof box and submerge them in water, why do you need mineral oil?

Won't the water keep them cool enough?

Air is a poor conductor of heat, even more so when it is not moving. The air (and plastic) between the heatsink inside the box and the water outside the box acts as an insulator. If you replace the air with mineral oil, heat will be conducted away from the LEDs+heatsink much faster than air. It would drastically decrease the temp of the LEDs and increase their life.


I don't think the mineral oil idea is good myself. Reason being, you can't just stick the LEDs in mineral oil and call it a day. Mineral oil works because it is non conductive so electrical items can be submerged and still work, problem is, mineral oil acts as a heatsink. If you put an item like a CPU or LEDs inside a box of mineral oil, you just end up heating the mineral oil to the point you start cooking things. You also need some type of heat exchange (copper tubing?) with the mineral oil for the heat to be able to dissipate.

The whole box would be inside the aquarium, so it would transfer the heat to the water, not 100% ideal, but overall better than LEDs burning out. Plastic is also a poor conductor of heat, if the walls of the box were very thick, it would be better to use glass, that conducts heat much better and would keep the LEDs cooler. I think it would usually be fine with plastic though. Also remember that while LEDs have to be kept cool, they dont produce nearly as much heat as other types of light. I doubt 2-5 LEDs inside a decent sized aquarium will cause any overheating issue unless one was present already.


I still can't wrap my head around why this method would be more desirable than the old. In a breeder tank, sure... in a FW tank, maybe... in a SW reef tank, not at all.

I feel this is an oversimplification, however I do tend to agree with you. I feel that the new design is better for setups without a sump and setups with low water flow. The old design is easier to DIY if you have a sump to work with.


And I took out some skimmate out of my skimmer, put in 1 drop... again... 1 drop of skimmate into the Phosphate vial that holds 10ml. The rest I filled with RO/DI water. Super super super dilluted skimmate and this was my results. .1 Phosphates and 25 nitrates on my Salifert nitrate test kit. I took the vial out after the test ran to show that the water is clear vs the skimmate.

I would respectfully argue that proving the skimmate has phosphate in it, is not the same as proving the skimmer removed phosphate from the water. I feel a better test would be to put a tank in a dark room, fill it up with water of a known phosphate level, then put in the skimmer and measure the phosphate of the water later.

[Garf]

Somebody please change the title of this forum to UPFLOW from UPLOW. I know it's not important but details matter in this game.

[Jason]

That's the name of the section it's in :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Somebody please change the title of this forum to UPFLOW from UPLOW. I know it's not important but details matter in this game.

Oh that is funny I never noticed that...

[Garf]

i would of noticed last night but i was stuck in the TIMEWARP that occured to some of us. To say i was baffled is an understatement.

[tebo]

Today I decided to end the testing of new upflow, it works and what it could do just as well as the previous method, in my case is more complicated or cleaning, not to mention the annoying noise of the air pump


In my case it is complicated to even contact of bubbles along the mesh

I'll wait for the libration of the most complex models of this new system to see if they make me change my current ats, back to my traditional method fed by my fall

regards

[SantaMonica]

In my case it is complicated to even contact of bubbles along the mesh

I would think more difficult problems have been solved. If there is enough bubble flow, the screen will be lifted right up in it.

[Ace25]

I get it ... can't respond so just delete my posts.. very mature.

[michael007]

Thought I would post this here aswell.. Has anyone noticed any difference in the bubble interation in freshater vs saltwater, due to the water density......

[SantaMonica]

The source of the white spots on the screen apparently has been found: A neon tetra knows how to get to the screen and hold his position in the rapid bubbles, while eating in one spot.

[johnarky]

Am I missing something or are all of ACE25 's comments gone? I read this thread last night and now I don't see any of his posts. I wanted to go back through today and read everything with a clear head.

[SantaMonica]

His phosphate posts are here...
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1895-Phosphate-vs-Phosphorus

[Othello]

Great :P after a long wait here it is at last...

since I am working on my own POC, I will give this design a test and see what gives. I came up with an idea for setting it in the sump...let me know what you think:

2201

2202

The idea is to hang the screen from a rod placed laterally on the sump's edge...have the airstone pump bubbles up the screen... still trying to figure out the lights though...how to have them on both sides of the screen....

my sump is divided into 3 sections:

1- water coming in from the tank then flows down into
2- main section -- usually to have skimmer & other gizmos
3- auto top off section...


so I guess the wall separating the "water-in" chamber from the main chamber can be made into a mirror and have the light at the side of the sump....ill draw it and post...

[Othello]

Here's the design with lighting.

2203

what do you think?

I figured 2x the light would be needed because light will be reflected back onto the other side of the screen...but then its just guesswork on my part so I need input from the pros out there.

[Othello]

Ok just figured out something...

my original thought was that tying the screen would help in the cleaning process...just take the entire rod off along with the screen, scrub it and return...but I just figured I will need a way to keep screen in the air flow's path....maybe have the entire system to be removable? I mean secure screen to rod and airstone using zip ties or similar...just disconnect airstone from pump when need to wash and replace/reconnect when done...

I liked the epoxy idea proposed by Floyd to cover up all the sides of the stone thereby directing flow upwards only...would aquarium safe silicone be a good alternative? dunno about finding safe epoxy over here :(

so basically, to get back:

airstone sealed at 3 sides, leaving just the top side open to allow air out.

screen fastened to stone at the bottom and rod at the top.

rod rests on sumps edge...

since its all still on the theoretical side, im thinking if the first chamber will have enough of a water column to cover the screen up, since it will be the in-flow of water from the tank... maybe if i made the screen wider (40cm) with less height...SM would there be a difference impacting growth? I mean the intent is to have water covering the entire screen right? if water column is not too high, then i guess compensation would have to be done with the width to achieve desired surface area...

[SantaMonica]

That what Doompie did. However the mirror will be blocked out in a few days.

[Jason]

Other idea will be to make a setup like those designed for engraving PCB like this:

http://www2.i-services.net/images/membres/forum/2012-01/img_1326492274_754.jpg

But with an entry point and exit for the water to flow through, and you can even put lights on each side :)

[Othello]

That what Doompie did. However the mirror will be blocked out in a few days.

OKK...you are right SM...

sorry but its been nearly 36 hours up with practically no sleep (upgrading local operator 3G network and had some issues...)

since I dont want to play with immersed lights (esp the DIY part) I guess I'd have to look into something else...what about the angles used in your first post on this thread? is it any good? or maybe use two one-sided screens instead of one two sided...which is better you think?

[SantaMonica]

2-sided screens are always better; gets twice the light to the roots, which keeps the roots alive twice as long.

[Othello]

you are right SM...

thinking of placing the screen in the middle section of the sump and lighting from both sides...but we are talking of around 40 cm width...which means if screen is in the middle, there will be 20cm on each side from the glass wall of the sump...if I place my lights there, thats like almost 8" away from lights...do u think its too far for positive growth?

[Othello]

this is what I mean:

2204

i could cover the entire section with plexiglass or just glass to prevent splashes and evaporation...

[Jason]

Why not, for an external use an acrylic box, like the nano 1 made by SM, but fed from the bottom with a powerhead + venturi going though a perforated or slotted tube, and the exit at the top ?

[Othello]

Why not, for an external use an acrylic box, like the nano 1 made by SM, but fed from the bottom with a powerhead + venturi going though a perforated or slotted tube, and the exit at the top ?


you mean there is only water flowing past the screen?

[Jason]

you mean there is only water flowing past the screen?

No, as the power head is fed with a venturi intake, like on a skimmer
So it'll see both water flow and air at the same time, and you can even make it a sealed, just a couple of nylon bolts to remove the top for cleaning the grown algae.

[Othello]

No, as the power head is fed with a venturi intake, like on a skimmer
So it'll see both water flow and air at the same time, and you can even make it a sealed, just a couple of nylon bolts to remove the top for cleaning the grown algae.

I think I can picture it...so u have a stationnary screen in a plexi box, with a water/air current flowing past it from the bottom up....or from the top down as in the previous scrubber models...

Im guessing it could even be horizontal... aesthetically speaking, minimal profile...something like this perhaps?

2205

the box would need to constantly be filled with water I guess...

[Jason]

Almost spot on !

I'm pretty bad at drawings, so.....

And the circulation will be bottom > top

[Jason]

ok, so here is bad drawing of it...

2206

But put a water tight lid with nylon screws and seal + leds on the out side.

Water + air (venturi on a PH) comes from bottom, the screen is in the middle, and water exits from the top drain.
It's complete water tight and can be set up anywhere, and any size you want.

[Othello]

ok, so here is bad drawing of it...

2206

But put a water tight lid with nylon screws and seal + leds on the out side.

Water + air (venturi on a PH) comes from bottom, the screen is in the middle, and water exits from the top drain.
It's complete water tight and can be set up anywhere, and any size you want.

OKK I read u now :)

there would be head pressure to consider for the PH...also whats the diff between bottom --> top vrs. top to bottom flow (sorry if I missed anything in previous discussions)...

a final Q: the box would be permanently filled with water?

[jacob.morgan78]

Okay, is this what we were waiting on for May 1? Is there anything else to expect to come out tomorrow?

This is great! Do you clean this in the same way as the old ats? (with tap water and everything?)

[Othello]

so with water flowing from bottom to top, I guess we would have something like this


2207

of course lights would be hitting the flat ends of the screen but I drew them like this to show positioning on both sides...

what I need is an in-sump system as I don't want anything above the tank...or anywhere for that matter...with 3 boys in the house (10, 7 and 4yrs old) I dont want to leave anything exposed...plus I would like to have as much of the equipment needed (heater etc) down bellow..

having the design in the pic above would mean I would have to immerse the lights and at this point I cannot consider this option...unless I find immersible lights but then it would be an issue of getting the correct power etc etc...

[Jason]

I dont want to leave anything exposed...plus I would like to have as much of the equipment needed (heater etc) down bellow..

you just leave this sitting directly on top of the powerhead, and if the scrubber "fixture" is above the sump no need for real waterproof lights no ?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would think you would have to weigh down the bottom edge of the screen or else it will never stay vertical. This is why zip-tieing it to the airstone is shown.

[Othello]

you just leave this sitting directly on top of the powerhead, and if the scrubber "fixture" is above the sump no need for real waterproof lights no ?

was looking for the bulb smiley... :) I believe Eurka is the word (except in this case it would be euriko or whatever conjugation ... my latin was always kinda scrappy)

it would be the same as the old SM design, fed from the sump and returning to the sump...only change is the screen attachement, no slot needed and the injection of air with the water via the venturi hookup...correct?

[Jason]

sounds like it !

And i would even add some kind of wight at the screen bottom to keep it vertical

[Othello]

I would think you would have to weigh down the bottom edge of the screen or else it will never stay vertical. This is why zip-tieing it to the airstone is shown.

yep Floyd...I think attaching the screen to both top part and the stone would guarantee a straight screen without any bends or flexing...

[Jason]

I think attaching the screen to both top part and the stone would guarantee a straight screen without any bends or flexing...

In the design we're talking about there is no more stone, just a tube with holes in it, like a spray bar.


Or did i miss something ?

[Othello]

In the design we're talking about there is no more stone, just a tube with holes in it, like a spray bar.


Or did i miss something ?


in your design, there is no need for stone but the screen would need to be attached on both ends to prevent flexing I guess..Id be curious to see how the algae would be growing on this though...against the water flow or with it and against gravity??? i mean u have water+air flowing upwards, rubbing against the screen...

the stone attachment would be in a setup similar to the one in my previous drawing....

ouch my head hurts :D I need a drink and sleep I guess

[Othello]

Jason did you try the method we are discussing or is it only in theory ??

[Jason]

I guess the upflow is for the bubbles, they usually go up in water :)

And maybe, really maybe, it'll help the algae strands from collapsing and thus giving more light and "food" to the roots (if they have any, and i dout about it)

[Floyd R Turbo]

I didn't see the second page going when I wrote that...

All great ideas but I have a feeling after a year of working on various designs, you're going to see these ideas released in a few months. Doesn't mean you can't build one now.

FYI this is my build and you'll probably be seeing a thread on it soon

2208

2209

2210

[Jason]

Jason did you try the method we are discussing or is it only in theory ??

I don't have my reef tank setup yet, still missing some stuff to finish it (quite an investment).
So it's all by deduction and theory, and usually i am good at mecanical flow stuff (part of my job as well, having equipment running @ 7000psi and >400 degF)

[Othello]

Floyd

this is using the "new" design? what screen size do you have on that?

speaking of build threads, I should take pics and upload them into my journal I guess...sump was finished on Saturday...its drying up right now...waiting for the stand to be completed etc...

[Jason]

I didn't see the second page going when I wrote that...

All great ideas but I have a feeling after a year of working on various designs, you're going to see these ideas released in a few months. Doesn't mean you can't build one now.

FYI this is my build and you'll probably be seeing a thread on it soon

2208

2209

2210


So this is more or less what i was talking about, but i'll have the flow bottom up, and sealed, driven by a pump + venturi for bubbles :)

[Othello]

I don't have my reef tank setup yet, still missing some stuff to finish it (quite an investment).
So it's all by deduction and theory, and usually i am good at mecanical flow stuff (part of my job as well, having equipment running @ 7000psi and >400 degF)


Im moving into SW after some time on FW setups myself...the whole ATS was the catalyst as it proposed a cheaper alternative solution...

over here, a simple sump runs at around 1200 US$...skimmers start at 150$ and can reach 800$...a decent reef ready tank would be between 1000 and 2500 US$... then u have the different reactors etc...LR goes at around 10$ per kilo...then u have the corals and the fish...

I tell you by the time you are done, your investment would have reached somewhere around 5 or 6k... so the ability to DIY and the simplicity of the whole deal was what attracted me in the first place...plus the reduction in maintenance and stuff to worry about...but I am going off into tangents...back to topic :)