Scrubbers Sounds intrestings...More info please.

[AaaRr]

Hello guys I am new and I mean NEW! I have a 90 gallon tank with a stand. I have not bought anything else except a API reef master test kit. I am using Fish Forums and RM forums to gather information. I have deiced on my power heads and well my heaters small victory but they are done. I was moving on to figure out what kind of skimmer I wanted then I saw SantaMonica in FF posting about scrubbers. I have read much about them but still do not know enough. Once I get a scrubber I do not need a skimmer correct? The tank has to have a overflow correct? I think I still want a sump but would I just want a empty tank that can be filled with water rather than having all the baffles in it? That away I can have my scrubber heater pumps and such out of sight. I was wondering if you think I should drill the tank or do over the back overflow. I would like to drill it but have know clue what pvc parts I need and how to make a correct over flow. Does a Scrubber make lots of noise like a mini water fall would or is it silent because it is submerged just a little in the water? If I go with a scrubber can I do it from the very beginning and never have to buy a skimmer? If so should I have the scrubber on when the tank does it cycle when I add LR and LS in? I am assuming the scrubber just replaces the skimmer and I just need everything but the skimmer that I would normal need. I have read that with a scrubber people do not have to do water changes as frequently does this mean so little frequency that I would not have to buy a RO system and just go off of LFS water? :D
Thanks,
Deven

P.S. If you have DIY step-by-step Scrubbers that you think are worth looking into over others please feel free to link them. :)

[SantaMonica]

Once I get a scrubber I do not need a skimmer correct?

Correct, most of the time. One exception would be a fish-only tank with big fish, and no rock or sand. Having small food particles floating in the water is of no use, so a skimmer is a good idea to remove the food.


The tank has to have a overflow correct?

No. You can make an above-tank scrubber like this:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/SumplessFeed.jpg


I think I still want a sump but would I just want a empty tank that can be filled with water rather than having all the baffles in it? That away I can have my scrubber heater pumps and such out of sight.

If your primary concern is nutrient reduction, you don't need lots of baffles and dividers. Just an open sump, with water swiftly going through it. Separate sections, and slow water, will let waste/food settle, and rot.


I was wondering if you think I should drill the tank or do over the back overflow. I would like to drill it but have know clue what pvc parts I need and how to make a correct over flow.

If you ARE going to have a sump, you MUST have a drilled tank. An overflow will stop flowing eventually, and will kill your scrubber because of the lack of flow. As for how to actually drill it, you should visit the plumbing forums on your favorite reef sites.


Does a Scrubber make lots of noise like a mini water fall would or is it silent because it is submerged just a little in the water?

They are basically silent.


If I go with a scrubber can I do it from the very beginning and never have to buy a skimmer? If so should I have the scrubber on when the tank does it cycle when I add LR and LS in?

If you are starting a tank from scratch, you can start with a scrubber only. Start the scrubber when cycling.


I am assuming the scrubber just replaces the skimmer and I just need everything but the skimmer that I would normal need.

Scrubbers and skimmers do opposite things. Skimmers remove food. Scrubbers remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate.


I have read that with a scrubber people do not have to do water changes as frequently does this mean so little frequency that I would not have to buy a RO system and just go off of LFS water?

If the purpose of doing a water change is to reduce nitrate or phosphate, then a scrubber should eliminate water changes. If the purpose of a water change is to remove poisons or medications, then you must still do the changes. As for RO or RODI, it is true that many of the things removed by RO filters are removed by scrubbers. BUT, the scrubber can only remove these things once they are already in your tank. So, the best system would be to use an RODI along with a scrubber. However, if you are in a position to experiment (i.e., if some corals were to die, you'd be ok), then you can certainly try not using an RODI.


If you have DIY step-by-step Scrubbers that you think are worth looking into over others please feel free to link them.

You can start with these:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37)

[AaaRr]

Very quick and VERY helpful response! Thanks for that. I am going to be doing it in my sump. I really like what Johntanjm did with his scrubber
.
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http://www.radio-media.com/fish/UserJohntanjmOnSG-9.jpg
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but would I be able to add lights on the two other sides too? Also I like how he has somewhat of a refuge there would that live? If I put frags in it? Also when using a pump does that kill a lot of the pods that the scrubber make? I was reading and read that it makes millions of pods so a couple dead does not seem to bad.

[worley]

About the RO/DI: I still use mine every few days to make up top-off water to replace the evaporated water (just put pure water in, no salt), so it will work out cheaper to have one in the long run rather than buying plain RO/DI water from the LFS.

About the one you pictured there, I'd recommend:
- just dip into the water to make it quieter and stop most of the bubbles and splashing.
- light it from both sides
- use a more rigid plastic canvas instead of material
- and I'm sure santamonica will say don't use the foam pads as he mentioned above, unless it's a fish only tank

The fuge idea will still work, it probably won't have anywhere near the effect on the tank that the scrubber does but probably won't hurt at all.

[AaaRr]

Yeah I know better to not use the foam pads cause they are a trap for pods and stuff that I want to be in my Reef tank. Agree with more lights and a harder material, I am going to use the materiel that is recommend. Also I should have 3 baffles instead of just the two he has there correct?

[SantaMonica]

Correct on the foam.

But that flexible screen material may actually work well; it will just not last forever. However since it has tiny fibers, algae sticks good to it.

As for pods, scrubbers only produce baby (less than one week old) pods that are barely visible specks. The weekly cleaning keeps them from growing bigger. So if you want bigger pods, yes you will wants something like rock rubble for them to grow in.

[AaaRr]

Ok I put my self in a cornor kind of... I just bought 100 lbs of live rock and sand if not more...Got a really great deal on it but my tank is not setup I have blowers and heaters that's it. Right now its chilling in a rubbermaid lol. So I need to get this scrubber set up asap my tank is not drilled and now not sure if I am going to is it possible to sill do a scrubber with a non drilled tank? If so how do you think I should do it? Would it be an over the back box overflow? I have looked on my favorite forums and they offer very little help. Also I have a hole saw that has been in the grage for awhile and was wondering if this would work I do not think it would and kind of do not want to chance it but it is http://www.buyacehardware.com/disston-o ... 19436.html (http://www.buyacehardware.com/disston-one-piece-hole-saw-2119436.html) . Where do you think I would be able to find a glass hole saw and what size would I need I have looked at homedepot and lowes online no luck. :( I am looking for something in town that I could pick up. I live in a big town so what kind of shops should I check out?

[worley]

Look at the diagram Santamonica posted, you can place a container with a scrubber *higher* than the main tank and pump water out, then let it flow down back into the tank.
This has a few practical issues, like where do you put it?
As for drilling the hole (I needed to enlarge one in the really thick 10mm glass), I used a ceramic/glass hole cutter and I've written a step-by-step guide here :D :
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117&start=40
When you cut a hole you ideally need a "weir" in the tank, so if the hole leaks at the bottom of the tank it doesn't just drain the entire tank into the sump and then the floor...
It's possible to do all this, you'll need to get some glass cut, to make the tall box, some overflow comb to go at the top of the weir to stop fish etc getting in, you'll need to double check the hole cutter you have is: a) the right size, b) also does glass (ceramic ones tend to, but check first), and then you'll need to plumb it in (I built a durso standpipe (well two actually) and it works perfectly (also see that thread) - see http://www.dursostandpipes.com/ for more info.

[SantaMonica]

You can do a siphon overflow for now... it's a bit of a balancing act, adusting flow etc, and long term it will fail, but for now it will work. Just set up a siphon down to the sump, and the sump pump brings it back up to the tank. Play with the siphon hose size (or valve) until it matches the pump volume. And put the pump high enough in the sump so that when the siphon fails, all the water won't get pumped out of the sump (should not overflow the tank).

[worley]

I find even the idea of a siphon overflow scary, I can see floods if the siphon breaks and there's enough water in the sump, or sump pumps running dry and burning up, neither are great, but it would work as a very temporary solution.. maybe... lol

[kcress]

Check this place. They're very good and highly respected by the aquarium crowd. Tops for customer service. They have kits to put in non-siphon drains. They also sell the proper hole drills. They are really not drills they're grinders. They grind thru the glass. They don't technically cut the glass. A standard downtown hole saw can't begine to do the job.

Check on the left side for the hole saws/drills/grinders.

Also they have movies for installing their drain kits and drilling holes - look around.

http://glass-holes.com/category.sc?categoryId=3

[kcress]

BTW it's easy to prevent an overflow with a siphon setup. It just costs money! You put a water level sensor in the tank that kills the power to the return pump if the tank level gets too high, as it most certainly will if the siphon fails.

[AaaRr]

I know this may seem like a dump question but I want http://glass-holes.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=7 but for the return pump to enter would it have to go over the glass or would I drill another hole out side the box and make another bulkhead? Have you used this company? Do they ship fast?

[worley]

I don't know about that particular kit, but I would recommend "cutting" another hole rather than having pipes going out of the tank, this is what I did:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/download/file.php?id=116
That's two durso standpipes drains either side with the return pipe in the middle, and of course, 3 bulkheads (if your pipes are large enough you could get away with 2 bulkheads, one drain and one return, the return pipe will probably be smaller than the drain, the dursos are quite large as they suck air down to avoid siphoning problems that give the "toilet flush" effect.

[kcress]

I have not personally used them but know many who have and I have never heard a single negative comment. Call and ask about delivery or email them.

You can certainly come over the back on the return if you need to. Drilling is a little cleaner looking result.




I know this may seem like a dump question but I want http://glass-holes.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=7 but for the return pump to enter would it have to go over the glass or would I drill another hole out side the box and make another bulkhead? Have you used this company? Do they ship fast?

[worley]

Yes, of course you can use a flexible hose etc out the back and over the top of the tank, but you'd need to secure it to stop it flopping out of the tank and draining all over the floor, just my personal preference on the rigid pipe going next to the drain. A flexible hose is certainly easier (almost 0 plumbing).

[AaaRr]

Ok thanks for all the help thought I would let you guys know what I am doing. Finally.... I plan on doing a above tank scrubber I drew up a model it will be on kitchen cabinets something like that with the one on time as the canopy anchored into the wall. I will need a pump that can do about a 6 foot head just to be safe it is a 90 gallon tank I was thinking of doing a 11x11 scrubber area board So that would mean that I would need a 385 gallon flow correct? Is it OK if I have more? Also how big should the pvc be 1 inch? I hope that it will look something like this (http://clancommission.net/aar/Fish%20Tank/Tankmodel.jpg) once I am done of course plumbing is not in there but you can get the just of it.

[SantaMonica]

That will work, but be sure to put a cooling fan, with cooling holes (one in, one out), on the bottom of the cabinet, to control the evaporation/condensation. Since the holes are on the bottom, the light will shine down through the holes onto the tank, so you won't notice them.

[AaaRr]

Very good recommendation thank you!

[AaaRr]

Ok so I went to the hard ware store (HomeDepot) and could not find much of anything for the bucket scrubber but I also had a poor list with little detail I am going back tomorrow but to lowes IMO it's better with a very detailed list ;). I had a couple questions before I go out and buy everything. Is the surge scrubbers better than the one that collect water than flood the scrubber or is a constant flow just as good? If the surge ones are better do you have another bucket build link? Also I troll 3reef a lot and see that you and some of the members do not see eye to eye on scrubbers (sanatamonica), my question to you is how long has your system been running with just the scrubber no skimmer or other filtration? Hopefully someone can reassure me how well this works. I have read all the FAQ's and a lot of the forums here and think it does, I will never really know till I get my feet wet. I know that people think it turns your water "yellow" but like you said take it out and clean it every week and it should be good, this makes since to me not what I am getting at I am getting at how well do SPS do? Anyone with a scrubber over 2 months that have SPS please chime in!

*EDIT* Last question, my pump will be inside my display tank; therefore, I do not want to put my pump on the sand bed cause it will clog and most likly burn out so I should have it on the top almost taking water off the top such as a overflow would do just not as much? Also what do you recommend to cover the the intake of the pump so no fish get sucked onto the screen that blocks the pump, if you get that :? :? I was thinking of getting some mesh or something strong enough to make a little cylinder around the intake so the suction would not be to strong for a fish.

[worley]

That will work, but be sure to put a cooling fan, with cooling holes (one in, one out), on the bottom of the cabinet, to control the evaporation/condensation. Since the holes are on the bottom, the light will shine down through the holes onto the tank, so you won't notice them.
I've literally just done this in my sump, two x 120mm (5") holes + silent 120mm PC cooling fans. I had a little mold growing on the varnish of the wood on the inside of the cabinet, and lots of condensation, after wiping it clean and running the fans overnight there is 0 condensation and mold, also this also has two other benefits: It cools the 140W of lights that light the scrubber, and it also helps cool the water in the tank.

[SantaMonica]

Surge types have not been proven (by us) to work better, but then again nobody has done any testing. I see the same growth on surge-types as non-surge types (and I've seen hundreds), so why go through the extra hassle.

My tank has been running 9 months with just a scrubber. I used to put carbon in once a month, but now don't even do that. Never yellows, because the bacteria eat any yellowing compounds in the water. I've moved on to experimenting with other things, like feeding large amounts.

My SPS frags are all growing (although under 150W halides), except for one which is holding steady, and have increase their rate of growth since feeding more.

You want to put your pump up near the waterline, so if there is a leak, it can only pump out an inch or two of water before the pump runs dry. And yes you want a screen on the pump, but most pumps already come with some type of screen/cover for just that purpose.

[AaaRr]

You want to put your pump up near the waterline, so if there is a leak, it can only pump out an inch or two of water before the pump runs dry. And yes you want a screen on the pump, but most pumps already come with some type of screen/cover for just that purpose.

Yeah the pump I am using does come with something like that but the current is still really strong and do see something getting sucked in it. I will make a mesh just to make me feel safe. I am really glad I am doing above the tank bucket :D seems very easy cheap and effective. All great things for a fish tank.

[AaaRr]

Ok I have news on my scrubber! I could not find a bulkhead in town :( So I used a spa jet head :D. It some what work there is a micro leak so I am getting a new buck right now and going to get a better pump the one I had did not have enough flow. I was just reading Santamonica latest post in FAQ's and he said....

2. The screen is too thin. Screens should be about 1/4" (6mm) thick. This is thicker than most materials, so you should use two or three pancaked layers of material. This gives the "roots" of the algae more to grab onto.
Does it really have to be 1/4 inch? That is pretty big for a screen IMO. I am using plastic canvas so that would be like 4 stacked on each other. Ok going to the store hopefully for the last time for this project.

[worley]

Ok I have news on my scrubber! I could not find a bulkhead in town :( So I used a spa jet head :D. It some what work there is a micro leak so I am getting a new buck right now and going to get a better pump the one I had did not have enough flow. I was just reading Santamonica latest post in FAQ's and he said....

2. The screen is too thin. Screens should be about 1/4" (6mm) thick. This is thicker than most materials, so you should use two or three pancaked layers of material. This gives the "roots" of the algae more to grab onto.
Does it really have to be 1/4 inch? That is pretty big for a screen IMO. I am using plastic canvas so that would be like 4 stacked on each other. Ok going to the store hopefully for the last time for this project.

Personally I have just one layer, I've yet to try multiple layers, it should work fine with one layer of plastic canvas, if you have enough flow to cover several layers I would guess it would work better however.

[AaaRr]

Using one or two I can not get that constant flow at the bottom...I do not know why I have sanded the inside made it bigger started small went bigger.... Help any tips on how to get the constant flow?

[SantaMonica]

More flow will fix the coverage. Also, once the growth fills it, that will fix it too.

The multiple screen concept has worked great every place it has been tried. Thus it's now a default recommendation (although not mandatory, and not simple.)

[AaaRr]

How does this look?
http://clancommission.net/aar/Fish%20Tank/DSCI0223.JPG
http://clancommission.net/aar/Fish%20Tank/DSCI0224.JPG
http://clancommission.net/aar/Fish%20Tank/DSCI0225.JPG

[SantaMonica]

Should be ok. If you can plug up that little section on the end, it won't spill out, and you'll get more on the screen.

[AaaRr]

I got it up and running it has been in the tank for about 16 hours now. I have pictures but ehh lazy right now to upload them and camera is dead :(. I will show you them later and give you an update.

[AaaRr]

Okay its time to clean my scrubber I have read a couple post on cleaning the scrubber but I am not sure how. Do I just wash off one side of the screen with FW and then reattach it and that's the cleaning? Its also in the brown-black oil slick stage I will take a picture when I get home.

[SantaMonica]

Yes just put it in the sink and clean it with FW. Leave some algae on the screen so it will grow quick. Clean 2X per week until the dark stuff turns green.

[AaaRr]

So i should clean both sides? Should I wipe it off with my hands or just let the water do the work?

[cyberseer]

water won't clean much, use something like credit card to scrape it off, just leave a few spots of the green or red (I envy those that does have red turf algae) for it to grow back.

[AaaRr]

Okay let me just start with saying I am sorry I have not updated you guys until now. I came with pictures too! First set is my first cleaning.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/DSCI0338.JPG
Picture of scrubber after about 7 days of working unseeded.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/DSCI0341.JPG
Another of just the screen.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/DSCI0344.JPG
Its clean!

Okay these next ones are kind of random not sure when and what cleaning it was. I have cleaned it at least 8+ times and I still have that think dark slim screen.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20168.jpg
Bulbs I am using.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20216.jpg
Random picture of tank.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20220.jpg
Most recent picture before cleaning.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20240.jpg
After Cleaning.
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20241.jpg
Again After
http://dev.rpg-gamer.net/Fishtank/PictureRandom%20221.jpg
Tank now

I bought a Cabinet and that is where my scrubber stays right now...Unfortunately it heats up a lot and I need to buy some computer 120mm fans to air it out :D. I got my lights yesterday and well that's why my tank is overheating. I am working on getting the temp set correctly. I have two fans pointing at my scrubber but it still heats up at .01 degree per 45 mins or so... I will try and figure out how to get my fan to blow on my main display tank underneath my lights later. My parameters are normal except with nitrate at like 10 but still getting slim so I figure it will be that high until I get the green stuff. That's the update the tank looks a lot better than it did before I first started any question just replay! Have a great night!

[SantaMonica]

Good progress. For cooling, the most effective place for a fan in on the scrubber screen, since it has the most rapid flowing area.

Did you sand your screen? Try roughing it up so much that the little pieces of plastic start covering the holes. The pics of your cleanings show that too much algae is removed. This causes zero filtering for a few days. Better: Use two or three layers of screen, but still rough it up with a wire brush or 30 grit sandpaper on all sides. Ideally, you want a complete sheet of algae to remain after each cleaning.

Roughing up the screen, and using more light (for now) will speed up the filtering so you can get to growing green algae (and have lower nutrients) sooner.

[kcress]

Okay its time to clean my scrubber I have read a couple post on cleaning the scrubber but I am not sure how. Do I just wash off one side of the screen with FW and then reattach it and that's the cleaning? Its also in the brown-black oil slick stage I will take a picture when I get home.



Warning.. Don't let all this stuff go down your drain. You could end up with a nasty expensive sewer problem. Run FW on it then scrape it off into the sink then collect it all, then go ahead and do a final rinse. I use the scrapings as green waste, sometimes into the compost pile, sometimes under the nearest bush.

[AaaRr]

From the sounding for that replay kcress sounds like you have had personal experience with that. Thanks for the tip! I roughed it up but not as much as you are describing i will go redo that right now. More light really!?!? I have two of those bulbs and not really sure if I can put more bulbs in the cabinet I am using. I will show you new picture of this cleaning and you can tell me if I have done well.

[AaaRr]

Quick question should I use two plastic canvases or three? I am doing a rebuild. A lot of the stuff on my other one is not how I want it to be.

[SantaMonica]

Use 2 layers. The lights you have now are fine.