now i got real problem

[redadeath]

hi santa
i am now running mu scrubber for over a year and i have good green algae growth

the problem is most my sps are brown and most of peopl saying it is extra nutrients problem

so if i lower my feeding algea may dies

and when i increase feeding algae got very good growth

i feed frozen blendar mash and i add vitaimin to it


so should i stop feeding ?
i am afraid my algae become weak

if i increase feeding

i will not be able to get rid of extra nutirent

also i wonder how much phospate and nitrates needed to the algae to live and flourish

so need advice please

[FrozenReef]

Regarding SPS brown.

You forgot to mention your lighting on the show tank. What are you running ?

Specifically which SPS do you have ?

[redadeath]

acropora... turbinaria
250 watt * 2 14000 k

corals are only 20 cm from the surface they are wild colonies

[Ace25]

From my experience, turbinaria corals are very low light corals. Every time I have tried to move it up anything higher than 2" off the sand bed they bleach out in a day for me and take a month to regain color (I have a yellow/purple one). I have never actually had one "brown out" though, always bleach due to lighting, but you may be placing it right in a sweet spot were it is at the max lighting it can handle without hitting the bleaching phase.

My questions for you are, what are your N/P readings, what test kits did you use, and do you have any other type of filtration methods in addition to the ATS? (skimmer, carbon/purigen, GFO, etc). Do you have any PAR readings for your lighting? Are you running a Phoenix 14k? Is your MH a Single or double ended type? What type of reflector do you use? Just trying to get as much info as possible.

It is easy for Joe Blow internet guy (I am in that group as well) to just say "You're corals are brown and you run at ATS, well that is excess nutrients" but there is really no accuracy to that statement at all if they do not know more info about your tank. If these are close friends that see your tank in person and have been in the hobby a while, I would put much more weight into that statement being accurate.

To answer the question "How much N/P is needed for algae to flourish?", answer is "very little". .25 nitrates and .03 phosphates will still grow algae on an ATS screen very well.

[redadeath]

From my experience, turbinaria corals are very low light corals. Every time I have tried to move it up anything higher than 2" off the sand bed they bleach out in a day for me and take a month to regain color (I have a yellow/purple one). I have never actually had one "brown out" though, always bleach due to lighting, but you may be placing it right in a sweet spot were it is at the max lighting it can handle without hitting the bleaching phase.

My questions for you are, what are your N/P readings, what test kits did you use, and do you have any other type of filtration methods in addition to the ATS? (skimmer, carbon/purigen, GFO, etc). Do you have any PAR readings for your lighting? Are you running a Phoenix 14k? Is your MH a Single or double ended type? What type of reflector do you use? Just trying to get as much info as possible.

It is easy for Joe Blow internet guy (I am in that group as well) to just say "You're corals are brown and you run at ATS, well that is excess nutrients" but there is really no accuracy to that statement at all if they do not know more info about your tank. If these are close friends that see your tank in person and have been in the hobby a while, I would put much more weight into that statement being accurate.

To answer the question "How much N/P is needed for algae to flourish?", answer is "very little". .25 nitrates and .03 phosphates will still grow algae on an ATS screen very well, but one of the things an ATS allows you to do, and people should really take adva.

thank you ace my p/n readings are zero according to sera test kits
and i know they are not accurate

i have diy reflectors i did it my self
i have regular chiness skimmer that i believe it is not bad and have "chaeto algae in refuge " i didnt make it grow much so not to kill the algae on scrubber
i dont use carbo at all or gfo just cheato/scrubber /and skimmer nothing else
i am running hamilton 14 k single ended it is 25 cm above the water surface

my tds reading is 8 ppm i am going to add DI chamber for the ro filter

my green hair algae growth is great

the turbinaria is caught from high ligh place in the wild

here is the pictures for my tank

i read ur thread ACE before about coral browning so pleas advice

[redadeath]

additional picture for my tank

[Ace25]

Just going off your pictures, something about them just speaks to me that it is more of a phosphate issue than a nutrient issue. Call it a gut feeling, but take it with a huge grain of salt. Excess nutrients (DOCs) from my experience don't look exactly like what I am seeing in the pictures.. the second picture is more like a DOC issue (no polyps) but the first picture (which I am assuming that is a Garf Bonzai Acropora) has polyps out, but is browning, and that along with the brown spots on your turbinaria make me think phosphates. From my experience, if a tank has excess nutrients (DOCs) to the point that really affects corals, you usually will have some patches of hair algae within the display as well, no matter how well your filtration is working, and I don't see a spot of hair algae in your display pictures.

Do you know anyone with a Hanna phosphate meter? Drip test kits seem to be "good enough" for things like Nitrates, Calcium, Alkalinity, but I have never found those type to give any usable results as far as phosphates. Even a Hanna meter isn't that precise (+/- .04) but at least they give what I feel are usable readings, unlike liquid drip test kits for phosphates.

[redadeath]

Just going off your pictures, something about them just speaks to me that it is more of a phosphate issue than a nutrient issue. Call it a gut feeling, but take it with a huge grain of salt. Excess nutrients (DOCs) from my experience don't look exactly like what I am seeing in the pictures.. the second picture is more like a DOC issue (no polyps) but the first picture (which I am assuming that is a Garf Bonzai Acropora) has polyps out, but is browning, and that along with the brown spots on your turbinaria make me think phosphates. From my experience, if a tank has excess nutrients (DOCs) to the point that really affects corals, you usually will have some patches of hair algae within the display as well, no matter how well your filtration is working, and I don't see a spot of hair algae in your display pictures.

Do you know anyone with a Hanna phosphate meter? Drip test kits seem to be "good enough" for things like Nitrates, Calcium, Alkalinity, but I have never found those type to give any usable results as far as phosphates. Even a Hanna meter isn't that precise (+/- .04) but at least they give what I feel are usable readings, unlike liquid drip test kits for phosphates.

i dont think that in my area i would find such test kit and it will cost me alot if i ordered it online

should i stop feeding ?

for how long ? i am afraid that scrubber dies

and if i stopped or decreased feeding for how long to show the results

i am ordering purigen now and it will be here after 3 weeks

what should i do till it comes?

my kh is
10
calcium 440

magnesium 1250

[Ace25]

I think Purigen is always good to have, and could "help" your issue (if your issue is a combination of slightly elevated DOCs AND phosphates, which is very possible) but I would also order some GFO or alternative phosphate removal media as well. Also, Hanna sells "pocket meters" and cost $50 in the states for a phosphate checker (and in theory has the same accuracy as the $200 version). Not sure how much it cost where you live, and shipping may kill the deal for you. For $50, it is a no brainer to purchase.. heck, $200 for the large one I paid for and I believe it is by far the best testing device/kit I have ever bought. Completely worth the cost to me.

I do not think "feeding less" is the answer here.. actually, I don't think feeding less is the answer to anything, just a short term fix for certain problems. Food is good as long as it gets consumed, but even if all of it doesn't get consumed, the ATS will help out a lot once it starts to decay. Plus you have a skimmer running which also removed excess food.

I know I talk a lot about the negatives.. docs, phosphates, etc.. and I know to some it probably comes across as a much bigger deal than it is for most. It is something to be aware of, and control if need be, but I don't want everyone thinking it is a giant issue for everyone, actually, I would guess probably less than 5% of people have these types of issues that I describe, and have myself. For the majority, like Santa Monica, an ATS as the only filtration seems to work perfect for them. Even if DOCs and Phosphates become an issue in an ATS run tank, it shouldn't take more than a weekend a month of running Purigen/GFO to get the tank back into proper balance. So while these are issues to be aware of and control, the methods in order to control them are very easy to do.

[redadeath]

so what do u think it is the problem

feeding less wil make phosphate less ??

i am really confused

i am going to upgrade for 400 watt

adding DI unit

and getting purigen

i hope something solve my problem

[Ace25]

DI unit will help a lot.. who knows what nasty stuff is getting introduced via RO water with 8 TDS. Problem with 8 TDS is, you have no idea what that 8 consist of.. is it E.Coli, copper, or something else very serious, or is it something benign like calcium.

Rinsing the food (if it is frozen food) will lower your phosphates some over time because once you rinse it, the food will be much closer to the redfield ratio in terms of Carbon/Nitrate/Phosphate and that means your ATS should be able to consume them.. it is only when you add extra phosphates that exceed the redfield ratio that the tank has no means to control the excess phosphates, which is where GFO comes into play.

I really don't want to recommend feeding less, because we really don't know for sure the root of the problem. Without an accurate phosphate test it is all just a guessing game unfortunately, and a guessing game just going off pictures is not accurate, which is why I am hesitant to say "X is your issue without a doubt and doing Y will solve the issue" because I just don't know with certainty the real issue, but I have enough experience to make some educated guesses for you to consider. All I ask is you just consider what I am saying, but please do not take what I am saying as any type of fact. Weigh out my opinion with as many other opinions as you can get and then put it all together and see what you feel describes what your seeing in person best.

[redadeath]

thank you ace

i will solve every thing alone

means i will start stop feeding now and get the di unit

then after 2 weeks i will see what happend

if nothing new

i will plug the new lightining

and wait 2 weeks and see


if nothing new
iwill add purigen


and if after all nothing happend
i guess i will drown my self in the tank


do u think 2 weeks for every stage is enough to make changes take place?

[RkyRickstr]

before doing any of that Id invest in good test kits.. .get a hanna phosphate checker and see what that po4 is really at. then start with the purigen or carbon or gfo to remove whatever is in the water.

Two weeks is not along time if the problem is in the new water IMO. specially if you are only doing 10% changes. You will add good water but you will not be removing whatever is making your sps get brown... and even if the scrubber removes it it will take alot longer.

[kenith]

Just going off your pictures, something about them just speaks to me that it is more of a phosphate issue than a nutrient issue. Call it a gut feeling, but take it with a huge grain of salt. Excess nutrients (DOCs) from my experience don't look exactly like what I am seeing in the pictures.. the second picture is more like a DOC issue (no polyps) but the first picture (which I am assuming that is a Garf Bonzai Acropora) has polyps out, but is browning, and that along with the brown spots on your turbinaria make me think phosphates. From my experience, if a tank has excess nutrients (DOCs) to the point that really affects corals, you usually will have some patches of hair algae within the display as well, no matter how well your filtration is working, and I don't see a spot of hair algae in your display pictures.



Ace- can you explain the difference between DOCS and P04 issue? Are you saying that DOCS will have more nitrate/phostphate combo, rather than high phosphates with low nitrates? I believe I am having a PO4 issue as I have polyp extension but browning corals and cyano with NO hair algae in display.

[SantaMonica]

so if i lower my feeding algea may dies

No, it will just grow less.


i feed frozen blendar mash and i add vitaimin to it

Liquid food puts a LOT of nutrients into the water instantly. You need a really powerful scrubber to feed lots of liquid food. Unfortunatey we don't have access to live food, so the amount of liquid food you can feed is determined by how strong your scrubber is.


so should i stop feeding?

Cut the liquid to 1/4 as much, for two months, and see what happens.


i have regular chiness skimmer

You are removing a lot of the liquid food that you put in.


chaeto algae in refuge

This is the important part. If the chaeto was not dead long ago, then your scrubber is not strong enough for how much liquid food you are feeding (even with the skimmer). I would remove the chaeto, and cut the liquid feeding to 1/4 for two months.


my tds reading is 8 ppm

Certainly not helping, especially if the 8ppm is nitrate or phosphate.


my green hair algae growth is great

That's good. At least N and P are low, which allow green hair to grow. But the large amount of growth is telling you that a large amount of N and P are being consumed.

I don't see any nuisance algae on the rocks, so P is probably not coming out.


if a tank has excess nutrients (DOCs)

Nutrients = N and P, not DOCs.

DOCs = Vitamins, amino's, carbs, etc.


i am ordering purigen now and it will be here after 3 weeks

That will only reduce DOCs (food). It will not reduce nutrients.


I do not think "feeding less" is the answer here

I do.

I've been feeding liquid food for over 2 or 3 years, and I can change the coral color just by adjusting how much I feed relative to how much I scrub. I can also control polyp extension by how much I feed and how course the feed is. The limitation is always, always, the scrubber(s).

The problem with liquid food is it that the nutrients in it hits the water, and hits the corals, before the nutrients ever get to the scrubber. So coral tissues get very high pulses of nutrients. This causes cyano too, since cyano is pulling N right out of the food. If it were live food, it would be different, but dead liquid food is solid N and P. It's lots of food too, of course.


Rinsing the food (if it is frozen food) will lower your phosphates some over time

Unfortunately this is a useless proposition when you are feeding liquid food. Although the liquid food feeds coral polyps directly and quickly, it also has hundreds of times more N and P going in at the same time. Orders of magnitude more than "rinsing the food".

Regarding test kits, I don't think they will matter. I don't even test at all any more. Test kits only measure the "standing crop" of nutrients, not the "flowing" amount. When feeding liquids, there is a huge river of N and P flowing directly from the food to the scrubber. And this "amount" can very easily measure zero. But it's a huge amount. And unfortunately, the N and P bump into the corals before getting into the scrubber. So even if you had 10X the scrubbering power, you'd still be limited on how much liquid you could feed. Your chaeto is your test kit. Chaeto is nuisance algae, as far as the scrubber is concerned. If the scrubber cannot remove nutrients before they are used by the chaeto, then the scrubber is not strong enough for how much you are feeding.

Also, feeding slowly, continuously, is the only way to reduce the pulse of nutrients to a constantly-low amount.

Reducing the liquid food will fix the corals. Live liquid food, of course, would solve all of this.

[Ace25]

Ace- can you explain the difference between DOCS and P04 issue? Are you saying that DOCS will have more nitrate/phostphate combo, rather than high phosphates with low nitrates? I believe I am having a PO4 issue as I have polyp extension but browning corals and cyano with NO hair algae in display.

Sorry, I seemed to have used the 2 terms together by mistake. To me I think nutrients=docs, but if the general line of thought is nutrients=N/P, I will go with that. N/P are elements/compounds to me and are inorganic in nature.

DOCs are dissolved organic compounds (or carbon). Corals absorb DOCs directly through their flesh for nutrients. The normal issue I observe when I see my tanks have excessive DOCs is my SPS coral polyps do not extend at all. I believe this is due to the coral being able to meet all its nutrient needs through DOC absorption and sugars the algae provides it and the coral has no need to extend its polyps to catch food. Just going off countless experiments/experiences with running my tanks without an organic removal method and then with. If I remove a form or controlling organics on my tanks, in about 1 month the polyps on my SPS corals no longer come out, toss in a bag of carbon or purigen, next day the polyps are all out. Seen it too many times now while keeping all other parameters the same for me to think it is just coincidence or any other factor. A DOC related issue happens slowly, could be a week of polyps not quite coming out as much as they did the day before, then a couple weeks with no polyps, and browning of corals usually comes after polyps stop extending (3-4 weeks normally before browning starts to happen).

PO4 issue on the other hand, polyps will be extended, and browning will occur much faster. A colorful coral can "brown out" completely in under a week once the tank reaches continuous excessive phosphate levels, again though, what those levels are differs per coral, but for the most part with anything that is SPS, keeping it between .01-.09 is ideal to be on the safe side.

From your description, it does sound like a PO4 issue.

[Ace25]

SM, for dosing liquid foods, I agree with everything you said, but I didn't picture him using liquid food. Putting food in a blender usually doesn't make liquid food, ie. it can still be rinsed in a brine shrimp net with RO/DI water to rinse any excess phosphates away (Rod's food is made this way). Also, high quality liquid foods usually do not contain extra phosphates like most frozen cubes of food do, so simply adjusting dosage amounts and particle size will do exactly as you state in regards to coral coloration (and health) and not lead to a build up of excess phosphates.

[RkyRickstr]

SM, for dosing liquid foods, I agree with everything you said, but I didn't picture him using liquid food. Putting food in a blender usually doesn't make liquid food, ie. it can still be rinsed in a brine shrimp net with RO/DI water to rinse any excess phosphates away (Rod's food is made this way). Also, high quality liquid foods usually do not contain extra phosphates like most frozen cubes of food do, so simply adjusting dosage amounts and particle size will do exactly as you state in regards to coral coloration (and health) and not lead to a build up of excess phosphates.

This is absolutely true in my tank... I stop seing polyp extension after about a week. Then i run a bit of carbon and gfo for two days and PE is back and color is better. Not to mention water clarity as well improves.

[SantaMonica]

Makes sense. Most non-scrubber tanks with high N and P (nutrients), will also have high organics (food), simply because of no export. The high food would normally be welcomed by the corals, but the high nutrients defeat this.

A scrubber-only tank will have high organics (food) like the ocean, and low nutrients. The high organics feed the corals a lot, enough so that they don't need polyps to survive. I think if we could feed enough particles to match the ocean, the polyps would still come out, since that's what they are programmed to do. So it goes right back to being able to feed a lot.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is an interesting take. Polyps not coming out because they have enough food. But then, if the polyps never come out, wouldn't you expect the coral to die?

[FrozenReef]

The red flag I see is you mention a DIY reflector. This can reduce intensity greatly. Reflectors are so important to the overall light that reaches the tank. So while you may have a 250w MH, your not maximizing the potential output. You really want a lumenarc style reflector.

[SantaMonica]

Actually I guess it's the same as having enough particles in the water. If there are enough particles, the polyps will probably be out all the time, no matter how much DOC food is available.