Co2 turbo

[Garf]

Has anyone tried to accelerate algae growth by the injection of air or neat co2 into the ATS feed pump. Thinking about this so that the alk consumption would be negated in a low co2 environment. Done a few experiments and the lower viscosity seems to increase turbulence and even out flow.

[SantaMonica]

That would really lower your pH.

[Garf]

That would really lower your pH.

I take it that nobody has tried. Not yet anyway!

[spideybry]

I take it that nobody has tried. Not yet anyway!

You could get away with adding a calcium reactor, that will drop the ph a bit but it will also adding co2 into the water column.

[Garf]

You could get away with adding a calcium reactor, that will drop the ph a bit but it will also adding co2 into the water column.

That's a very good point. A calc reactor puts a load of co2 in the system. However I use a d.i.y. Kalk reactor which reduces available co2. I can sense that this thread is going scientific! Perhaps the use of vinegar could be beneficial!

[spideybry]

Well since the kalk helps stabalize levels such as alk and calc, it would really be beneficial to add a calc reactor since it they would compliment each other. Stability of ph and stabilization of alk and calc, while adding a slow addition of alk and calc into the water as well as Co2, would help accelerate it a bit.

[kerry]

I use 100mL of vinegar with 2 teaspoons of calcium hydroxide to a gallon of RO/DI when I make my Kalk as a few of us do on here. This addition of carbon does not seem to hinder the algae growth.

[Garf]

I use 100mL of vinegar with 2 teaspoons of calcium hydroxide to a gallon of RO/DI when I make my Kalk as a few of us do on here. This addition of carbon does not seem to hinder the algae growth.

I used to dissolve arogonite sand with vinegar and dose this. I never saw an improvement on my system. Do you know of anybody that has cast iron positive results?

[kerry]

I know Floyd also uses vinegar. It was questioned whether or not the extra carbon would slow the algae growth. Floyd has not mentioned anything about hindered growth as of yet either.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I did do kalk dissolved in vinegar for a while, used it to mix up a 50% strength batch and did that in the ATO. However I could not maintain Alk above 6.7 no matter how hard I tried, and the pH was way low. I decided to make a 2 chamber ATO/Kalkwasser device so that I could control the amount of Kalk being dosed, as the evap method was just not working well, plus the tank has a temp issue with the location, so adding a fan to cool the tank could step up the evap and overdose.

However it did not, to my knowledge, impact scrubber growth. Oversized per feeding and need to replace the whole device with something smaller, so I'm going to rebuild the scrubber and then work on the kalk/ATO system. Just too much to do and I can't trust the staff at the office where the tank is located to deal with keeping the kalk in the ATO right.

[Ace25]

Floyd, after that whole thread on kalk and vinegar, and learning the top end of how much vinegar you can use, I tried going from bare minimum (5ml per 5G) all the way up to 40ml per gallon. When I used 40ml per gallon I got 0 precipitates, but I found like you, the more vinegar I used the harder it was to maintain alk. Not sure why that is, but that was my experience. I have since went back to my super low vinegar and my pH and Alk are back to stable again. Just taking a wild guess, but BRS sells 2 "recipies" of 2 part, one that raises pH, one that lowers pH, I am wondering if by adding vinegar to kalk we are turning the kalk from recipe 1 into recipe 2 somehow.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Interesting. Good to know that I wasn't the only one experiencing lowering Alk and pH.

[kerry]

I have not seen any issues with the vinegar use in my three tanks. I know it falls when I get busy and top with RO/DI but, as long as I top off/dose with Kalk and vinegar its pretty stable. I write my tests down weekly and its pretty predictable. If I have dosed 2L of Kalk vinegar per day into my 40G is always about 11.5 to 12.0 Alk. I have not checked for pH because the Alk stays stable but I did about two weeks ago and it was 8.0pH.

[Garf]

In the light of the new design release, I have decided to implement the air injection into the feed pump. Bubbles are very small, but if it doesn't work well I'll do a Venturi thingy after the pump motor which should increase the bubble size.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

In the light of the new design release, I have decided to implement the air injection into the feed pump. Bubbles are very small, but if it doesn't work well I'll do a Venturi thingy after the pump motor which should increase the bubble size.


See my reply on the other thread, re CO2 injection.

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1687-The-new-Upflow-Algae-Scrubber-(UAS)&p=19854&viewfull=1#post19854

[Garf]

well its been running for a few hours now and nothing has exploded yet. I know this looks very temporary, and if it works it will be re-done.

The airline going to the feed pump 2183

The air pump is on the minimum setting. a very small air pump could do the same thing.

An over and underwater pic showing vast amounts of micro bubbles that has passed over the screen.2185

I have a slow run through rate on my sump so none of the bubbles has made it to the display.

[Garf]

Yesterday i cleaned the screen back to the white canvas. Gave it a little more roughing up, and restarted.

This is 24hrs after 2231

If you look very carefully you can see the small bubbles on the screen.

This is without doubt the greenest 24 hr screen that i have had.

[Ace25]

Just want to point this out, look at post #83 and 84 from my build thread, posts dated 7/7/2011 ... different.. but similar to what your talking about. Also post #114 from 10/21/2011.

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1116-Ace-s-ATS-v2-0-LEDs/page9

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1116-Ace-s-ATS-v2-0-LEDs/page12

[Garf]

Just want to point this out, look at post #83 and 84 from my build thread, posts dated 7/7/2011 ... different.. but similar to what your talking about. Also post #114 from 10/21/2011.

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1116-Ace-s-ATS-v2-0-LEDs/page9

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1116-Ace-s-ATS-v2-0-LEDs/page12

Thanks Ace. It seems strange to me why this was not followed up. In this thread I hope to answer the question about co2 depletion effecting ALK usage, and also now it may hinder algae growth. Obviously my results may not be taken on board, but if lots of us try this and get a definitive answer, then who knows.

[SantaMonica]

co2 depletion effecting ALK usage

Is not really a question; the way it works is that there is not normally enough carbon (CO2) in the water if the scrubber is growing quickly, so the algae start pulling carbon from the HCO3 (bicarbonate).

[Garf]

Is not really a question; the way it works is that there is not normally enough carbon (CO2) in the water if the scrubber is growing quickly, so the algae start pulling carbon from the HCO3 (bicarbonate).

Cheers SM, what I can't understand is why it's taken years to find remedies for this. I'm a newbie to this site (and loving it by the way), but this is one of the first things I thought about. The air input to the screen is almost "free of charge" (if it works), I suppose time will tell.

[Garf]

Picture updates after 48 hrs running air injection waterfall;
2240

and 72 hrs
2241

The areas directly lit by the bulb and reflectors are going brown as you can see. Whereas the screen that is not as brightly lit is green. I have an idea that the production of carotenoids within the algae is telling me that the light is too bright (whether the increase in co2 has helped here i cannot be sure).

I am now halving the lighting on one side of the screen to see what happens. After all, it all costs cash!

[Garf]

I have been doing a bit of digging and found these facts;

Algae can use oxygen instead of co2 to produce the growth they need. However, this also requires high intensity lighting and higher temperatures. In my mind all of the above conditions are met in the original waterfall scrubber and guidelines.

When the algae use more co2 because of increased co2 availability, the light and temperature requirements are both reduced to a moderate level and the guidelines may need reviewing.

Brown pigmentation, ie carotenoids, mask the chloroplast to protect it from being destroyed whist still providing a secondary source of photosynthesis (ie turning brown). When this pigmentation is overwhelmed by the light, the chloroplast is destroyed and the algae dies (ie clear slime on new screens).

This all seems to tie in nicely with what we experience with new screens, and also why the lighting has to be so extreme on existing systems with no co2 supplementation.

I think I am on the right track.

[Doompie]

Thanks for that info Garf..seem to make sense.

[Garf]

If I am correct in my previous assumptions, I have another area of interest that perhaps LED users would like to investigate. Most DIY grow light LEDs are nearly totally red (660nm). Carotenoids however don't absorb red at all. This may mean that the mechanism for protecting the chloroplast whilst being over illuminated actually prevents photosynthesis ending up with the demise of the algae. Carotenoids absorb blues and greens and the algae uses this as a back up source of photosynthesis whilst shielding the chloroplast. I know that Ace25 has always advocated using blues, but this may become even more important in the presence of available co2 where over illumination MAY be more problematic.

[kerry]

I have better growth with a blue in the mix, its pretty a pretty obvious difference to.

[SantaMonica]

Algae can use oxygen instead of co2 to produce the growth they need

It's not using oxygen, it's just switching to a different carbon source.


the algae dies (ie clear slime on new screens).

That's not dead algae, that diatoms and/or dino's. Dead algae turns yellowish brown.

Brown growth has usually come about from lower illumination, not higher. Higher illumination seems to encourage green to start.

[Garf]

It's a bit of a read but in my opinion worth it.

http://http://www.eplantscience.com/botanical_biotechnology_biology_chemistry/algae/photosynthesis/photorespiration.php (http://www.eplantscience.com/botanical_biotechnology_biology_chemistry/algae/photosynthesis/photorespiration.php)

http://http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/people/pittermann/Bio135_Plant_Phys_files/Chloroplast%20evolution%20in%20red%20and%20blue%20 algae.doc (http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/people/pittermann/Bio135_Plant_Phys_files/Chloroplast%20evolution%20in%20red%20and%20blue%20 algae.doc)

[Garf]

i have been running screen at less than 50% lighting now for 4 days with a bubblescreen and here are some pics.

Overwater and underwater comparisons

2252

2253 bubbles off.


Although i have not had a fully developed screen yet it is already having a positive effect on my display and water clarity. I have not cleaned my display glass for 3 weeks (although i should probably give it a going over soon). Calcifying algae is spreading like wildfire on the glass. In a few more weeks I think i am probably going to see how long i can leave the screen between cleaning before the underlying stuff dies and detaches.

[SantaMonica]

Try the attachements again.

[Garf]

Try the attachements again.

sorted hopefully.

[Garf]

Got these red tufts sprouting up all over the screen. They protrude from the screen and look like a bright red hair algae. Does anyone know if this is a good sign or a bad sign ?

2313

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's red turf algae. It's a good sign, it means your screen is maturing. It doesn't filter as well but the green hair usually grows over the top of it. I scrub all that stuff off every month or so.

[Doompie]

Hm om sorry but I have been thinking about co2 also for a long time.
And maybe this is worth a try, because I think the theory might work:
Add air when the scrubber lights are off, and add co2 when the lights are on...?

[Garf]

Doompie - I am just injecting air for now and relying on the natural levels of co2 in the air to work. Been doing some research on co2 and it seems at over 3 percent co2, algae production is reduced, and at 5 percent it is halted. I am still fiddling around with my lighting at the minute but when I know a bit more about how my screen "ticks" I will probably dabble with co2. Gonna have to get a new probe for my ph controller before I even attempt co2 injection.

[Ace25]

I have been testing air injection for 2 weeks now.. my results have been down right terrible. Since adding air my tank has had a HUGE dino outbreak, and in 20 years I have never personally had a dino outbreak. 1/2 of my screen is getting air, the other 1/2 isn't. I cleaned the screen yesterday. The side with the air looked like it was covered in mud. When I rinsed it off, the water turned to mud color. The algae under the mud was still green, but very thin and frail. It came off the screen in one swipe. The other 1/2 of the screen was lush green and tough to remove. I will give it another 2 weeks to see if this is just a phase, but if after that I still have a dino problem I am going to conclude that injecting air into a waterfall ATS is counter productive on my setup. It is the opposite effect to what I saw when I added a fan over my screen.

[Garf]

Ace25 - inputting air certainly has changed the operating criteria. I have lowered my lighting to 0.5 watts a square inch just to prevent over exposure ( it is now green growth at least ). However as SM has suggested, the penetration to the lower growth will be reduced drastically and maybe even to the point of large amounts of die off. Of course this may be mitigated by having larger screens, with lower lighting overall, or just reducing the exposure times to more natural levels. We will see. Whatever happens I'll post my results here. If this thing does work, then great. If it doesn't then at least nobody else will bother wasting there time with this. I would point out however that chemically, this is the same process that many others are testing out in UAS.

[Ace25]

I agree, it is a similar concept to the UAS, but I am seeing some people using the UAS in saltwater having the same Dino issues. I was just about to stop the air injection because my tank was looking like Floyd's UAS, a snot filled box, but after seeing Floyd's last screen cleaning and the Dino's appearing to subside I decided to give it a couple more weeks on my setup to see if it is a phase like it is appearing to be for Floyd. Like you, whatever the results are after the next 2 weeks I will post my results as well. If it cleans itself up and starts doing better than the side without air I will certainly say so, but at the 2 week mark I would say the side with air seems to be about 50% efficient compared to the side without air just going off algae growth and health.

My air injection doesn't look anything like a UAS where the bubbles will severely block the light. I have tiny microbubbles just on the thin layer of water going over 1/2 the screen.

[Garf]

End of another scrubbing week. Growth is still very dark green but thicker than previous screens. This one took a lot of fingertip scouring to remove it. The section submerged 24/7 has very little hair algae but the green is vary hard and prickly / spiky. The submerged bit hurts when rubbing (gonna use a tool next time). I'll leave lighting as is for another week perhaps increasing intensity and reducing photoperiod next time.

[Garf]

Been playing with lighting and I reckon once a new screen has gone green it CAN cope with the full lighting as described in guidelines. Just requires lower lighting in the curing phase. Been running at full schedule for past couple of days and no burning yet.

[Garf]

Day 4 of a new bubble screen at full intensity and growth is going 3D. Going to put splash protection back on because water splashing over the lights. Carbonate hardness has increased from 9DKH to 10 ?? in last 2 weeks without changing Kalk additions. Ph is rock solid at 8.2.

[Garf]

Been thinking about my slight increase in KH. This may indicate that my system is not short of co2 to fuel the screen. Maybe respiration of the fish is sorting this for me ( I have quite a heavy fish loading ). Anyhow I have now connected the air pump to my ph controller so that the screen is only bubbling when the pH is above 8.2. This should trigger bubbles when ALK is being consumed by the algae and when my KALK additions are made.

[Garf]

Still running the bubble screen and now the screen is producing lots of algae, perhaps the KH test results are now more pertinent to the reason for starting this thread. Good news so far, pH stays around 8.2 to 8.1 day and night, KH steady at 10dkh, calcium 480. Note - got rid of the pH controller powered air supply because it always stays on anyway. Just running rigid airline to the pump intake again.

[crashmushroom]

Hey garf i have been thinking should i add air to my screen but im a bit nervous. My alk drops heavily every week. One thing why do you think your glass is staying clean mine has to be cleaned every 3 days.

[Garf]

About putting air on the screen, in the long term there are no ill effects, but the short term effects do mean that the screen has to re- cure I believe. Algal growth is great at the minute but it did take 8 weeks or so to get large amounts of 3D stuff. As for the glass cleaning, I think it's because I have a large bacterial loading. When I scrape my glass totally clean, like when the pink calcareous stuff is stuck onto it in patches by the sand, the area that's down to the bare glass does get an slight algae coating, this then seems to fade a couple of days down the line. If I knew how it happened exactly, I would patent it, bottle it, sell it and buy myself a large part of a proper reef !!

[SantaMonica]

Everyone has large bacterial loadings.

[crashmushroom]

Hopefully my glass will do the same. :-) i might try this if it helps to control my alk levels. mine is always dropping

[kerry]

I have to dose Kalk daily.

[crashmushroom]

Maybe you can help kerry i have never dosed kalkwasser so have no idea about it i use red sea buffer and calcium. My alk is dropping really fast calcium and mag is perfect if i dose kalkwasser wont that boost calcium and alk. Therefore i only have a few corals so wont my calcium go through the roof. Hope i explained it ok.

[kerry]

You can use food grade baking soda to raise the alk, do it slow as the pH will drop a tiny bit. Here is a great calculator that I use. http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html . You can select the product you plan to use but keep the increase small like maybe one unit and drip it in over a few hours time. I use Kalk with vinegar to get the most out of my calcium but you can use it without and there will not be as much calcium in the solution. When my Ca gets to 500-550 I stop using vinegar in my kalk and the Ca starts to come down. I DIY all my dosing agents. Here is some good info I found years back on thereeftank forum.
Alkalinity is less complicated than many think.

About 96% of alkalinity is comprised of carbonate (CO3) and bicarbonate (HCO3) – with about 3% boron and 1% consisting of a various chemicals including silicate, phosphates etc. The carbonate keeps PH from falling while the bicarbonate keeps PH from rising.

A simple way of thinking about these “buffers” is they act as a reservoir for hydrogen (acidic) ions. When carbonic acid (H2CO3) is formed by the interaction of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H20) the carbonate (CO3) component of alkalinity absorbs the hydrogen ion converting itself into bicarbonate (HCO3). Conversely if a base/alkaline substance is introduced into the system the bicarbonate gives up its hydrogen atom and converts into carbonate. This giving and taking of hydrogen ions is what “buffers” and keeps PH stable in a tank.

Bicarbonate is simply baking soda. Carbonate is washing soda. Washing soda is baking soda that has been kept in an oven approximately 1 hr at 300 degrees to remove any moisture. This process effectively removes the Hydrogen (H+) from the bicarbonate.

You can readily make your own alkalinity additive - many reefers use a combination of baking soda/washing soda (often used in a ration of 6:1) – some reefers will add a minor amt. of boron as well which you can purchase at most grocery stores and is sold as Borate (20 mule team laundry additive).

[crashmushroom]

Cheers for that help kerry. Ok so if i dose kalk without vinegar it should raise my alk faster than calc and if i need to stop and just dose alk use baking soda?

[kerry]

Yes that is correct sir.

[crashmushroom]

Cool 2 more things is kalkwasser all the same no matter what brand? Also i read in a thread here that by dosing one part you can throw off ionic balance have u ever heard of that?

[crashmushroom]

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1460-No-water-changes-pls-help this is the thread

[kerry]

I have heard of that and I do change a little bit water changing when I add new live stock because I throw out the acclimation water which can be a gallon or two. From what I have read this should be plenty to keep the balances Ok and I also dose both and not just one. Rarely do I use just baking soda.
I use pickling lime from the canning section at the grocery store for my Kalk. Kalk is all the same if its pure calcium hydroxide.
I use 2 teaspoons to every gallon of RO/DI. If using vinegar I use 50ml to every gallon water, I mix the pickling lime into the vinegar then I add that to the water. If you dont have a problem with low Ca you can for go the vinegar.

[crashmushroom]

I thought small water changes would solve it thank you for confirming that. That's great I'll get some. Is there are procedure when you mix the kalk do you discard some of it? And I hear it must be kept airtight? Sorry for all the questions just dont want to mess it up.

[kerry]

I have kept it both ways and didnt see any huge difference when using vinegar. When not using vinegar I seen a lot more precipitation of the Ca in the mix. Now I keep mine in a 5 gallon pail with a valve at about and inch off the bottom (so I dont suck out the precipitated particles) and a small vent hole in the lid.

[crashmushroom]

Good idea. When you make it do you discard the scum from the surface? It might not be any harm for the moment loosing some CA as mine is high enough.

[Garf]

I thought small water changes would solve it thank you for confirming that. That's great I'll get some. Is there are procedure when you mix the kalk do you discard some of it? And I hear it must be kept airtight? Sorry for all the questions just dont want to mess it up.

Kalk is a great balanced additive. I don't use anything else for cal and ALK and mag. May sound strange but mag is also a constituent of Kalk. Addition of Kalk is over complicated by lots of reefers. I just put 1 teaspoon full into a 6 litre container, lob in 5 litres of RO/DI and let it syphon out over the next 6 to 8 hrs. Easy. The thing about "airtight" is rubbish, mainly said by people selling kalkwasser reactors.

[crashmushroom]

Hey garf yeah im gonna get some sounds better than what im doin. I use red sea 2 part, but all i seem to dose is alk buffer heavily. So just added my skimmer pump to my ats but the bubbles in the flow are so small its like a milky flow my have to re think.

[Garf]

Hey garf yeah im gonna get some sounds better than what im doin. I use red sea 2 part, but all i seem to dose is alk buffer heavily. So just added my skimmer pump to my ats but the bubbles in the flow are so small its like a milky flow my have to re think.

Thats what I've got, milky flow. Works for me

Kalk is way cheaper BTW

[crashmushroom]

Did you use a skimmer pump if not how did you get air in? I ask as i am not sure there is enough flow with this pump i have another but it does not have an airline on it. I know just checked ebay http://www.ebay.ie/itm/300g-Calcium-Hydroxide-Reef-Kalkwasser-High-purity-/140440571467?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_S upplies_ET&hash=item20b2e90e4b#ht_3642wt_968

[Garf]

Jammed a rigid line into the ATS Punp intake. Physics took care of the rest of it.

[crashmushroom]

Oh didnt think it would suck the air i thought you had an air pump cool ill try it. How do you find your alk consumption now. And have you kept an eye on PH?

[Garf]

Used to pump it but then found out it does suck to about 6 inch depth and ph is 8.1 to 8.2. by meter. This is with Kalk addition at night. KH stable at 10DKH

[crashmushroom]

Perfect this might be my solution to my alk falling so fast. Cheers will keep you posted

[SantaMonica]

I leave my kalk container open, and the surface forms a sealing layer.

[crashmushroom]

Sounds mad but my alk has gone up in just over 24hours of using a skimmer pump. Keep u posted

[Garf]

Sounds mad but my alk has gone up in just over 24hours of using a skimmer pump. Keep u posted

Even madder, mine did exactly the same. Went up by 1DKH and stayed there ever since.

[crashmushroom]

Yeah same 1 dkh will check tomorrow and keep an eye on pH. Dunno what im doin wrong Could not get the pump to take in air so I have a air stone under it for now as the skimmer pump didn't have enough flow.

[Garf]

Yeah same 1 dkh will check tomorrow and keep an eye on pH. Dunno what im doin wrong Could not get the pump to take in air so I have a air stone under it for now as the skimmer pump didn't have enough flow.

I use rigid tubing ( RO line ) wedged into the pump impeller input, quite far in. Have to put a kebab skewer into the open air end loosely to act as a silencer.

[crashmushroom]

Cool will try that so I take it the shorter the hose the better

[Garf]

Anything will probably do it, I just found it easier to jam the rigid line into the pump inlet.

[crashmushroom]

will give it a go so. The only problem I am having is micro bubbles in the sump are crazy from the scrubber return gonna work out how to cure that.

[crashmushroom]

3 days with air on screen one thing i noticed so far no burning of the algae with air just thick green as normal but my water flow is very heavy over the screen

[Garf]

3 days with air on screen one thing i noticed so far no burning of the algae with air just thick green as normal but my water flow is very heavy over the screen

Cheers bud. Perhaps my problems occurred because my screen wasn't fully cured when I started it. Keep me informed please.

[Floyd R Turbo]

crash, did you start using a skimmer pump on the L2?

[crashmushroom]

Yep up and running floyd

[crashmushroom]

Lost count of days but i think day 5 or 6 alk is still steady and for my first time ever ph is 8.3 could never get it above 8 is that the skimmer pump or something else tho? Slowly a new problem creeping in over the last few weeks golden brown coverings on the sand and rocks getting worse and corals starting to close getting worried.

[SantaMonica]

Scrubber getting weak.

[Floyd R Turbo]

How many hours are you running the lights?

[Garf]

Crash - what lighting are you using. Noticed a massive improvement on my lights when I replaced my cfl's after 3 months. When I get near end of the growth cycle, the algae is only about 1 inch from the lights and I am sure it could cope with more light.

[Floyd R Turbo]

He's using one of my L2's

Crash if you're still getting that thick green growth then extend the light cycle a couple hours, until you start to get yellow growth. Could need to adjust a few times.

Then brown growth is likely diatoms and those usually pop up when you change something should go away eventually. The new scrubber may have created a new "set point" in the system, causing a few things to go out of balance. Patience is the key as it is in most cases with reef tanks

[Garf]

Cheers floyd. The LEDs are adjustable a bit ( distance from screen ) aren't they ?

[crashmushroom]

I am using Floyd's l2 great peice of kit the growth is electric green all over the screen im only on 8 hours a day. But last night had a brain wave to up the lighting its 16 on now I might have got a bit excited. LEDs are maximum distannce from screen and in the last 24hrs no burning of algae yet. One thing I might be doing wrong I clean the screen when it has a covering of green so I can't see the plastic mesh but should I be letting it grow thick if so how thick?

[Garf]

Mines going 12 days, about 3/4 inch thick each side.

[crashmushroom]

Ah maybe that's my problem I clean when its about 3-4 mm on each side every 3-4 days I was afraid of lower layers dying

[Garf]

Bingo - the main growth occurs at the latter stages, just before you need to clean the screen.

[crashmushroom]

So I will leave it grow to at least half inch on both sides and keep san eye on alK. My ph went from 8.0 to 8.3 dunno how

[crashmushroom]

So today growth is going 3d at the bottom of the screen and about 4 mm each side of the screen now but in 48hours of 16 on 8 off no yellowing and algae growth if even better. maybe i should have the led's closer to the screen, thats a lot of light power for 16 hours and no yellowing.

[crashmushroom]

Oh yeah and still no alk change

[crashmushroom]

301930203021

nearly a week with skimmer pump clean now or wait?

[Garf]

I would clean now, then leave an extra 2 days next time etc,etc. until you get to 12 or 14 days. Not sure if there would be any benefit doing it this way, but that's what I did. Looking good Crash.

[crashmushroom]

Cheers garf thanks for all the help, just wondering do you clean both sides at the same time?

[Garf]

Yeah - been cleaning both sides at once. This time tried a silly idea. It's posted here ;

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1823-howdy-from-the-uk-day-one&p=23663&viewfull=1#post23663

[crashmushroom]

It looks funny might help it to build back up quicker tho

[Garf]

It looks funny might help it to build back up quicker tho

After 24hrs

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/3efcf930.jpg

After 48hrs

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/76114e17.jpg

Growth has already reached my splash screen, not sure whether or not to let it grow and fill in the gaps, or trim it with some hair clippers I have spare, but don't fancy doing that every couple of days!

[Floyd R Turbo]

So Garf, is your screen growth pics in this and your other thread a result of CO2 injection?

[Garf]

So Garf, is your screen growth pics in this and your other thread a result of CO2 injection?

Hi Floyd - not injecting CO2, just running the airline to the ATS pump. Can't tell if I would have had the same results without this modification as I haven't had a conventional fully cured screen. However I do seem to be consuming ALK in line with calcium, so it's unlikely the take up is from the screen. Also the pH of the sump seems to be regulated to 8.1 to 8.2. which would seem to back this up. I am getting very good growth though, and would love to attribute at least some of it with my modification. Really need more people to try it out.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think it might be worth trying what you're doing. I recently tested flow rates on the Eheim Compact 1000 vs Cobalt MJ 1200 (original maxi-jet) and the eheim does better by about 20 GPH at 13" of head on my L2. I wonder if microbubbles would be an issue with an airline punched into the supply line right in front of the pump outlet. May have to try this...

[Garf]

When the algae gets to about an inch in length at the base of the screen, it spreads out and acts as a biological bubble stop. After a couple if days the bubbles stay on this mat until they pop, or float across the surface.

[Garf]

Decided to spice things up today. DIY Co2 generator now connected to the feed pump. Let's see how much pH is affected, start off point 8.15 midday reading.

[Garf]

4 hrs in and sump pH 7.85, display pH 8.1

Edit - 3 hrs after scrubber light turned on ( 6 hrs into test ) and sump pH increased to 8.05, Display 8.15.
Edit 2 - 10 hrs in, sump pH 7.9, display pH 8.12 (main lights off)

[SantaMonica]

Not sure it can vary so much from sump to display.

[Garf]

Not sure it can vary so much from sump to display.

I have got a very slow run through sump, only about 400 to 500 lts hr which allows Co2 to build up at a disproportionate rate compared to the display which is reverse lit. Tested this morning after all night running Co2 and sump 7.82, display 7.96.

For info - display kalkwasser fed into display, not sump. Have also taken precaution of running skimmer ( not enough to skim, just enough to aerate ) prior to return pump ( fed with air from outside of sump area ).

[Garf]

24 hr update. Sump 7.72, display 7.98 ( 1 hr after main display lights on ) and mid scrubber lights off period.

27 hr update. Sump pH bottomed out at 7.65 ( when scrubber lights turned on ) display pH 7.95

31 hr update. Sump pH upto 7.82, display 7.98.

35 hr update. Sump7.91, display 8.08.

A copy and paste job that may prove informative;

Carbon dioxide levels and photorespiration

As carbon dioxide concentrations rise, the rate at which sugars are made by the light-independent reactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-independent_reaction) increases until limited by other factors. RuBisCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBisCO), the enzyme that captures carbon dioxide in the light-independent reactions, has a binding affinity for both carbon dioxide and oxygen. When the concentration of carbon dioxide is high, RuBisCO will fix carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fixation). However, if the carbon dioxide concentration is low, RuBisCO will bind oxygen instead of carbon dioxide. This process, called photorespiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorespiration), uses energy, but does not produce sugars.
RuBisCO oxygenase activity is disadvantageous to plants for several reasons:
One product of oxygenase activity is phosphoglycolate (2 carbon) instead of 3-phosphoglycerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-phosphoglycerate) (3 carbon). Phosphoglycolate cannot be metabolized by the Calvin-Benson cycle and represents carbon lost from the cycle. A high oxygenase activity, therefore, drains the sugars that are required to recycle ribulose 5-bisphosphate and for the continuation of the Calvin-Benson cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin-Benson_cycle).
Phosphoglycolate is quickly metabolized to glycolate that is toxic to a plant at a high concentration; it inhibits photosynthesis.
Salvaging glycolate is an energetically expensive process that uses the glycolate pathway, and only 75% of the carbon is returned to the Calvin-Benson cycle as 3-phosphoglycerate. The reactions also produce ammonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia) (NH3), which is able to diffuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_diffusion) out of the plant, leading to a loss of nitrogen.
A highly simplified summary is:2 glycolate + ATP → 3-phosphoglycerate + carbon dioxide + ADP + NH3The salvaging pathway for the products of RuBisCO oxygenase activity is more commonly known as photorespiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photorespiration), since it is characterized by light-dependent oxygen consumption and the release of carbon dioxide.



Particularly interesting is the fact that leaching of ammonia is evident, leading to increased nitrate eventually, and the toxicity that can prevent proper algae growth, perhaps a problem that some screens encounter where all lighting and flow levels are met, but screen growth is poor.

[SantaMonica]

Thank goodness there is a lot of CO2 in our water due to animal respiration.

[Garf]

Thank goodness there is a lot of CO2 in our water due to animal respiration.

Yes, except when you consider the pH of saltwater. pH above 8.2 ish, and near zero Co2 remains as its instantaneously turned to bicarbonate or carbonate;

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/83f229f9.jpg (http://http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/83f229f9.jpg)

[Garf]

42 hrs after co2 injection test start and sump pH 7.91, display 8.00.

50 hrs update - disconnected the co2 while the scrubber is in dark phase and the pH increased ( due to air bubbles still on screen. ) so instead of sump pH dropping to 7.7 it rose to 8.01. This also helped the display slightly to raise to 8.1. Now the scrubber lights are back on I have reconnected the co2 and the sump pH has dropped slightly to 7.93 and stabilised. Now I just gotta find a way of automating the co2 delivery without spending a fortune, the co2 needs to be delivered only when the scrubber lights are on.

[Garf]

Screen pic update. 12 day screen ( 3 with added Co2 )

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/3beb8810d88b692e931e1eab948099bd.jpg (http://http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/3beb8810d88b692e931e1eab948099bd.jpg)

[crashmushroom]

Hey garf my ph is 8.1 and my alk is still stable, which makes me wonder why did u start co2 was the skimmer pump not good enough or are you like me always experimenting? :-)

[Garf]

Hey garf my ph is 8.1 and my alk is still stable, which makes me wonder why did u start co2 was the skimmer pump not good enough or are you like me always experimenting?

Hi crash. - yeah, you got me sussed. I love to make improvements especially when they are cheap to do. I tried the fully blown Co2 trial as it seemed like the natural progression and hopefully optimum utilisation of the scrubber. I would love to see pics and an update on your bubble screen.

Strangly enough I have just this minute finished taking pH readings directly from the screen effluent ( still containing micro bubbles ) and it is 7.25. By the time it's gone through the sump and a bit of aeration it's back upto 8.1 before being pumped into the display. If anybody else tries this, they should keep this in mind so they don't knacker their display. My calcareous algae on the sump walls have taken a disliking to the new parameters ( just down the low pH end of the sump ).

Dont forget Crash, I want to know what's happening with yours.

[crashmushroom]

Thats cool. Not much to see my growth has halted I have hit a problem i have posted it in the high po4 thread.

My post reads:

(I know people are saying different things but i have the same problem. My screen grew lime green thick every 4 days until last week when my nitrates went to 0 this week my nitrates are undetectable and my p04 is 0.2 and climbing, no change to anything. I cant say high wattage could fix it as im running floyds scrubber with overkill led power and 12 hours on it goes yellow if i go anymore. A friend of mine said feed more coral snow as it will increase nitrates alot more than phos? As a result slowly recently golden brown is starting to grow on my rocks and sand.)

[Garf]

Crash - are you getting the same growth on the screen as before ? Last time we spoke, you was gonna leave the screen longer between cleanings, are you still doing that ?

[crashmushroom]

I was letting the cleanings get longer growth was perfect until my nitrates bottomed out this week and my growth has now stopped now really slow.

[kerry]

Are you feeding up to the screen size? When I dont my screen slows down.

[crashmushroom]

I am now but i was not i always got fast green growth tho until nitrate depleted. I wonder if i dont feed 2 cubes a day is it not enough to keep the nitrates equal to phosphates. Wish i knew the answer to keeping the balance i dont want to run GFO. I use a small bag of carbon in my sump maybe that threw the balance off by absorbing doc's which would possible been made into nitrate down the line. Im just guessing here :-)

[SantaMonica]

Don't need to keep a balance.

[Floyd R Turbo]

What about cutting hours back on the scrubber?

[Garf]

IRON CHLOROSIS

Think I may have found a reason as to why some people get yellow bubbly growth. Please consider the last part of this link with relation to high pH preventing iron uptake. Need someone with yellow bubbly growth to put bubbles or co2 on the screen to see if it is cured by lowering pH. I know this link is primarily about trees but the similarities are too numerous to ignore;

http://forestry.usu.edu/htm/city-and-town/tree-care/what-is-iron-chlorosis-and-what-causes-it/

And this one directly relates to iron chlorosis being induced by high bicarbonate reactions;

http://www.eplantscience.com/botanical_biotechnology_biology_chemistry/plant_nutrition/essential_elements_micronutrients/iron/factors_affecting_plant_uptake.php

[kotlec]

I would happily do it , but am afraid there is no technical conditions. My screen is fed directly via overflow comb. Waterfall in purest possible form. :(

Just remembered. First 6 months my tank suffered from low ph. Somewhere around 7,6. I was getting same alien bubbly growth as well. Dont know if this a kind of evidence but just FYI.

[Garf]

Kotlec - from memory your using Kalk and two part to keep levels up. Are these being dosed immediately upstream of the scrubber ?

[kotlec]

downstream. Immediatelly after.
Ph stabilised only after I started dosing. Screen was yellow before that as well. Daily dosing iron does not change that too just increased gha in DT

[Garf]

Is this exactly the same screen as was used in the lower pH system. If so, this fits in with the theory quite well.

[Garf]

Seems as though fast flow is not beneficial because it delivers nutrients faster, but more to do with the reduction of oxygen inside the algae enabling photosynthesis to use more co2. Obviously why a slow flow through sump works ok to house a waterfall screen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823876/

[Garf]

So Garf, is your screen growth pics in this and your other thread a result of CO2 injection?

Hallelujah - actually found some Co2 growth evidence for filamentous algae

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2871943/?tool=pmcentrez

And this copy and paste for sea grasses,

"Seagrasses, although well adapted for submerged existence, are CO2-limited and photosynthetically inefficient in seawater. This leads to high light requirements for growth and survival and makes seagrasses vulnerable to light limitation. We explored the long-term impact of increased CO2 availability on light requirements, productivity, and C allocation in eelgrass (Zostera marina L.). Enrichment of seawater CO2 increased photosynthesis 3-fold, but had no long-term impact on respiration. By tripling the rate of light-saturated photosynthesis, CO2 enrichment reduced the daily period of irradiance-saturated photosynthesis (Hsat) that is required for the maintenance of positive whole-plant C balance from 7 to 2.7 h, allowing plants maintained under 4 h of Hsat to perform like plants growing in unenriched seawater with 12 h of Hsat. Eelgrass grown under 4 h of Hsat without added CO2 consumed internal C reserves as photosynthesis rates and chlorophyll levels dropped. Growth ceased after 30 d. Leaf photosynthesis, respiration, chlorophyll, and sucrose-phosphate synthase activity of CO2-enriched plants showed no acclimation to prolonged enrichment. Thus, the CO2-stimulated improvement in photosynthesis reduced light requirements in the long term."

[kotlec]

Yes same screen. If that was a question to me .

[Garf]

Yes same screen. If that was a question to me .

Kotlec - yes it was addressed to you. Thanks for your reply. Have you not considered restarting your screen ( new screen ) so that the algae hiding in your system currently can grow on your screen, with the current tank parameters. This may ensure only the algaes suitable to your screen actually grow there, instead of unsuitable algaes ( from the old parameters) trying to survive instead of thriving like they should be. Just a thought.

[kotlec]

1. I had sheet of acrylic roughened and used it for a screen initially. SM told that this can be a reason. So I bought mesh and put it on top of old sheet of acryl. Dont know if this can be considered as new start, but algae was exactly same.

2. There are different kinds already growing on screen. Some red ,some green and mostly yellow. As there grows mostly yellow I suppose there are conditions that suits yellow growth requirements best. Green and red always show up on the very top and bottom.

[SantaMonica]

That study is for grasses (with roots), not algae. Did not read it though.

[Garf]

The quote is for grasses, the link above it is in relation to algae.

[Garf]

24 hours on a semi cleaned screen, pic update with co2. Looks as though some of the longer algae is dying off. The shorter stuff looks ok at the minute. Gonna keep a close eye on this.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/b380d1a8c066c685e0d0f933b970a5e6.jpg (http://http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/b380d1a8c066c685e0d0f933b970a5e6.jpg)

[Garf]

Co2 test has been discontinued. Now back to air bubbles on screen. The low Co2 down the one end of the sump has started to dissolved tube worms, kill fireworms and turn algae white. Glad I tried it though. With the fantastic growth I am getting using air bubbles it would be a shame to totally wreck the screen trying to increase productivity further. Someone may be able to control the screen pH with more automation ( to pH 7.9 ) but at present I am not able to do so ( my screen pH went down to 7.25 ).

However I have increased the air bubble flow to the screen because in this Co2 quest it is evident to me that maximum gas exchange is important. Especially with regard to internal algae oxygen levels and available Co2.

[kotlec]

Very interesting. At some stage I was worried about in what quantities tubeworms were spreading over my tank. But gradually they disappeared at all. And now I have to remember when i have seen it last time . Also I never seen any calcification on pumps heaters or else where. If I have used Co2 then that would be an answer, but why now ?
Can solving this puzzle be answer to all my problems ?

[SantaMonica]

Just put a bubble-limiting wall 20cm away from the screen to keep the bubbles on the screen.

[kotlec]

20 cm is almost foot . How that can help bubbles stay near screen ?

[kerry]

I am sure he means 20mm. 10mm either side to create a tight wall for the bubbles to pass through.

[Floyd R Turbo]

You're probably right but this is the 3rd time he has suggested 20 cm not 20mm, first was here: http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2110-New-tank-UAS-targeted&p=24148&highlight=sump#post24148 and now 2x today, which is what is throwing me off!!!

[Garf]

Not on about Garfs Intensity Transformer (GIT) by any chance ???

[SantaMonica]

20mm

[Garf]

CO2 test number two is going to involve my skimmer fed with enriched air, put on my scrubber lighting timer. This should treat the whole sump with a target of pH 7.9ish. Hopefully this should prevent anything from dissolving and still put extra carbon dioxide on the screen.

Still getting ALK usage in line with calcium, so no problems yet.

[Garf]

INTERESTING DEVELOPEMENT - just tested pH of screen run off and its 7.5. so that means lots of Co2 is on the screen without further supplementation. ( just air bubbles ). Gonna re test tomorrow. This would likely be the reason for my growth rates, and why in the initial stages of bubble implementation I had an adverse reaction to high lighting scheme.

If my re test confirms this, this method allows a low pH on the screen whilst leaving the rest of the system at normal reef pH to aid in calcification rates.

[Garf]

Well, retested the screen effluent with bubble screen and still got 7.5 to 8.2. It looks as though the Co2 concentration alters greatly after the bubbles subside. Immediately upon entry into the water in a bubble free zone water is laden with Co2. This Co2 then must gas off within a few seconds because further away from the screen, pH increases significantly with distance to normal reef pH. Happy days.

[kotlec]

What is main difference between 1st and 2nd experiment ?
Why Co2 could not gas off in case of 1st experiment ? Too hard to follow sometimes :)

[Garf]

Kotlec - I am not the easiest person to understand at the best of times, the wife would confirm this. The first experiment was with Co2 produced from yeast. This did gas off, but took a while and lowered my screen pH too far (7.25 ish). Using just air bubbles ( no Co2 enrichment ) the pH was a more manageable 7.5 ish and gassed off almost immediately.

[kotlec]

Got it now.

[Garf]

3 days screen. No ALK loss detected.
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/8bd9f41fab71ce121a361904f3d12f6a.jpg (http://http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/8bd9f41fab71ce121a361904f3d12f6a.jpg)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Garf, if you don't mind, can you please recap your entire system for all of us? Give a description of tank, scrubber, and other filtration, and how you are currently running it, with pics. Pretty please.

[Garf]

Floyd - How can I refuse a request like that. May take some time though. Will post in the builds section within next few days or so hopefully. I also work, got 2 kids, cat, dog, 3 parrots, 4 rabbits, wife and a partridge in a pear tree.

[kotlec]

I agree - wife consumes some time :D

[RkyRickstr]

I got you beat, i also have a pet pig... Lol.. just kidding

[Garf]

Found a diagram explaining sea air gas interchange. Note the importance of bubbles, wind, turbulence and air/sea gas flux. Diagram on page 3 ( but rest is worth a read ).

http://www.solas-int.org/aboutsolas/organisationaandstructure/sciplanimpstrategy/pdfs/solasftwo.pdf

Quote from which ;

"Bubble plume dynamics
At higher wind speeds the interface is disrupted to aprogressively greater extent. In the water, bubbles can beformed after wave breaking and penetrate some distancebeneath the surface. The downward penetration andevolution of bubble plumes are controlled by a combination of wave action, organised fluid motion (circulationcells and vortices) and turbulence, by the presence ofsurfactants and particles and by bubble buoyancy. Thus,bubble spectra are highly variable and evolve stronglyafter the initial wave breaking process (Leifer and DeLeeuw, 2001), which has consequences for the bubble-mediated processes of gas transfer and sea-spray aerosolproduction. Under increasing hydrostatic pressure,
the transfer of gases across the bubble-water interface
is controlled by physico-chemical transport across yetanother interfacial layer, the properties of which evolveand are modified by surfactants and micro particles. Thegaseous composition of the bubbles therefore evolves ina complex manner along their individual trajectories.Depending on sea state and biogeochemical factors,varying fractions of the bubble population are forcedinto solution, whereas the remainder rise to the surfaceand escape. Thus, bubbles are a unique and potentiallyimportant extension to the air-sea interface, particularlyfor relatively insoluble gases. "

[Garf]

Been trying to replicate the reduction of pH on the screen, but this time inside the bubble reaction chamber of my protein skimmer, ie trying to get a low pH reading showing intrusion of Co2. I tried several times with the same probe and could not find an area of low pH. This leads me to believe Co2 intrusion of the water mainly occurs at the sites of Co2 uptake from the water. So as the screen uses Co2 to fuel growth, this reduces Co2 in the immediate area leaving it liable to Co2 intrusion through air bubbles,that, at that particular moment have a higher partial pressure than the water. Any thoughts are welcome.

[Garf]

9 day screen. Cleaned today because it filled my plexiglas light shields. Ie 1 1/2 inch thick when wet.
nitrates down to 30 ish after peaking to over 60 when maturing the screen. Don't know about phos because I am waiting for low range test kit to be delivered. ALK still in line with calcium.
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/ce72da7482b2d11c6e3f5a35c0aa0b23.jpg (http://http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/ce72da7482b2d11c6e3f5a35c0aa0b23.jpg)

[Garf]

Cleaned screen yesterday, didn't take photo because it looked exactly same as last one. However today, the remnants of the algae on the screen have gone white again. I had previously put this down to the use of added co2, but considering I stopped that test, I can only assume that the bubbles are causing it ( unless anyone else also gets it ). Nitrates are down to 10ppm, phos .60ish. ALK and calcium still in line.

I may in fact try the co2 addition again.

[Garf]

Had to put a dose (1 tablespoon) of bicarbonate in this cycle. Don't know if it's been slowly creeping up on me or if something else is going on. All back to normal now though. This is the first bicarbonate addition ( other than Kalk ) since running the scrubber. Screen still looks the same as previous nitrate at 6 to 8, phos at 0.6 ish still.

[Garf]

Had to put another half tablespoon bicarbonate in the tank this cycle, so have re implemented my DIY co2 generator. This now draws air from my light shield, which warms the air which then gets enriched with co2 which then goes to the ATS pump. Found a reference to CO2 which directly relates to filamentous algae instead of the usual microalgae tests.

http://www.co2science.org/subject/v/summaries/aquatichighco2.php


the biomass of filamentous algae was also enhanced by the elevated CO2: by 220% in early July, by 90% in mid-August, and by a whopping 3,750% in mid-November.

As I see it this recreates the levels of algae on the screen. The fully lit area is summer, the portion not quite as well lit underneath is Autumn and the area next to the screen is the equivalent of November. Takes a bit of imagination admittedly.

[Garf]

Just been reading some old papers (1953) that says during photosynthesis the reduction of Co2 at the algae surface can increase pH to such an extent that calcium and magnesium precipitation occurs. Has anyone had a magnesium issue when using a scrubber ?

[kotlec]

I have exactly opposite. Never have to replenish Mg. Its always at 1300 by itself. Not scrubbing related I thing though.

[Garf]

Had to stop the Co2 addition again, now back to just air bubbles. The growth is really heavy on the screen but the slime bacteria is growing so fast that I am having to clean the slot pipe and top part of the screen every day. The pipe and internal small screen are getting full of the bacteria stuff, slowing flow to the green stuff. It does give me cause to think that my idea of a bacteria screen in the skimmer would work though. Now just plucking up the courage to try it, got a feeling without a massive overflow from the skimmer cup that I'll have a flood!

[shorty]

So, Garf.. You think you could find some time to give an overview of the results of your setups vs results on the CO2 injection? What was setup each time, method and amount of injection, obsticals you faced, and any results you think you found? I recently just tried switching to the UAS on a new tank, and had the idea to inject CO2 into my air intake. Was going to try the yeast reactor/bubble counter method and I came across this thread. Had trouble following and pulling out any conclusive results. I'd expect some dropped pH, but thought maybe a manageable amount, since there is not a lot of time for the co2 to diffuse into the water column... Which is the reason freshwater plant keepers need diffusers. However, this also made me wonder about the effectiveness of the delivery method itself... Would the algae be able to utilize the CO2 in gas form (to a degree that makes maintaining the Co2 reactor worth it)? I believe the lack of CO2 thing eating up bicarbonates is one of the biggest challenges to the ATS I face on my established tank. Thanks Garf!

[Garf]

No conclusive stuff Shorty, however, several facts are evident;
1) Algae grows better with a bit of Co2, so that energy isn't wasted converting carbonate to Co2.
2) Co2 does diffuse into salt water when the partial gas pressure is above that of the water. Ie if Co2 is being used up, the water becomes more receptive to Co2 ingress.
3) co2 diffuses better with skimmer size bubbles, as diffusion is proportional to surface area.
4) it's possible to reduce water pH in the short term to at least 7.3pH (using a DIY generator) but this is outside the algae tolerance zone in most cases, and could be counterproductive.
5) unused Co2 is almost immediately gassed out.
6) a thin layer of tiny bubbles refracts less light away from the screen than lots of large bubbles.
7) indoor air contains twice the natural levels of Co2 (ish).
8) in my case, ALK depletion is not a problem (with just air bubbles). Maybe using a bit, but may also be my Kalk addition method.

With your reference about a UAS, I have no experience of this. Just hope that some of the above is helpful.

[shorty]

No conclusive stuff Shorty, however, several facts are evident;
1) Algae grows better with a bit of Co2, so that energy isn't wasted converting carbonate to Co2.
2) Co2 does diffuse into salt water when the partial gas pressure is above that of the water. Ie if Co2 is being used up, the water becomes more receptive to Co2 ingress.
3) co2 diffuses better with skimmer size bubbles, as diffusion is proportional to surface area.
4) it's possible to reduce water pH in the short term to at least 7.3pH (using a DIY generator) but this is outside the algae tolerance zone in most cases, and could be counterproductive.
5) unused Co2 is almost immediately gassed out.
6) a thin layer of tiny bubbles refracts less light away from the screen than lots of large bubbles.
7) indoor air contains twice the natural levels of Co2 (ish).
8) in my case, ALK depletion is not a problem (with just air bubbles). Maybe using a bit, but may also be my Kalk addition method.

With your reference about a UAS, I have no experience of this. Just hope that some of the above is helpful.

Thanks for the run-down! I appreciate it. That is helpful. From looking at another thread (i think a build thread) - I believe I gathered that you are running a waterfall scrubber and you are injecting the air into the pump that fills the waterfall reservoir? However, I know at some point in this thread you also mentioned bubbles actually climbing your waterfall... and at another point you mentioned using a skimmer. Can you explain those two items more?

What does #5 mean? 'unused Co2 is almost immediately gassed out.'
And #7 with #8 - you're saying as long as you are injecting air somehow - there seems to be enough CO2 to supply sufficient algae growth without (or at least far less) bicarbonate conversion/absorption. - indicating that any functional CO2 injection on a system already injecting indoor air bubbles would really only be useful for stimulating extra growth... which may or may not be worth the effort (still to be determined). ?

Edit: ok - i think I made a mistake referencing the waterfall scrubber. That was someone elses - been reading too many lately!! all running together. Yours was typical slotted pipe ATS, right?

[Garf]

Actually ran my screen with DIY Co2, but then the slot pipe and top of the screen got all blocked up with bacterial slime, so went back to using air only. Don't get oxygen bubbles going up the screen any more because I turn the scrubber off for about 20 seconds a day to get rid of the oxygen bubbles (as I found these may have slowed photosynthesis). I'm using a skimmer to make use of the sugars that the algae naturally produces (like manual carbon dosing). Now have put a screen inside my skimmer and feeding it with Co2 to see if I can grow and skim out some of this slime as an experiment. With regard to ALK consumption, it's zero or near it, and I get a lot of algae growing, so have concluded that air is good enough.

[SantaMonica]

The slime is probably diatoms; CO2 would not grow bacteria; they need oxygen.

[shorty]

Im still kinda new to the latest on scrubbers... So not 100% following. But based on what SM said - just preventing the air bubbles may have solved that slime issue? Why would air bubbles reduce photosynthesis?.. Blocking light as you said before? Doesn't that kind of contradict the reported results of the UAS design?

[kotlec]

Why would air bubbles reduce photosynthesis?.. Blocking light as you said before? Doesn't that kind of contradict the reported results of the UAS design?

Oxygen - not air.

[Garf]

Quick update - now that I am putting Co2 into my skimmer instead of the ATS screen, it's a lot easier to control the amount that's in the water. I have increased my minimum pH set point to 8.0 and this seems to have stopped the slime growing in the ATS slot pipe. However, now I have changed the way I clean the screen (with algae continuously growing), the pH rarely gets that low, even with the DIY co2 generator pumping in continuously.

[WannaRace]

Garf, you think you can throw up a picture of your screen in action? I would like to see the amount of bubbles you are putting on the screen compared to mine.

[Garf]

Garf, you think you can throw up a picture of your screen in action? I would like to see the amount of bubbles you are putting on the screen compared to mine.
Well I've tried, not sure how helpful they'll be though. I take it your still losing lots of ALK.
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/b47b1c8d560081fef6ec69bb307cdaab.jpg
And sump
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/646716a90d2d77c98fe9d0af90064b78.jpg

[WannaRace]

Not too worried about it yet. I cannot get a nice consistent flow of bubbles on the screen. I'm playing with the tube as sometimes it just stops producing bubbles.

[Garf]

Not too worried about it yet. I cannot get a nice consistent flow of bubbles on the screen. I'm playing with the tube as sometimes it just stops producing bubbles.
I used to use an air pump, turned down to next to nothing, if that helps.

[WannaRace]

Well Garf, I've doubled the output of my pump in order to really take advantage of taking air in via the airline and to my surprise I've got a screen full of bubbles! Very excited for this weeks results, although, I did turn down my LEDs some. I will keep you posted.

[Pulse]

This is a great subject. I wonder if bubbles help screens mature faster in systems with new scrubbers? Has anyone tried this with a brand new scrubber yet?

[Garf]

Pulse - my screen was only a few weeks into maturing before I started the air bubbles thing, and I'm not using ALK. Crashmushroom was the second to try it and apparently his ALK stabilised also (on a fully matured screen). As far as I know, Wannarace is only the third person to try it.

Wannarace - fingers crossed. If it works on your high ALK consumption screen I think this may actually become a feature of most if not all waterfall screens. Please keep us updated.

[Pulse]

I do not actually own an ATS right now, because I am am renting a single room where I cannot have an aquarium, but I am setting up an ATS in an LFS soon. Count me in as one who will try the bubbles but I would like to see some others try it in the meantime as that will be a couple weeks.

[WannaRace]

An LFS mentioned to me that perhaps because I have so many LPS that my alk is being consumed so fast by them.

My screen is in its 3rd week of running, so probably right around where you started Garf. Will definitely stay updated.

[Garf]

Crash mushroom has just reported to me that he is still using the "bubbles on a screen" and it's corrected his ALK depletion issues.

[WannaRace]

Still hope for me :-)

I will check alk Monday and Tuesday to compare readings.

[Garf]

Still hope for me

I will check alk Monday and Tuesday to compare readings.
Must take calcium readings at same time please.

[Pulse]

LOL I think you just reinvented the UAS garf. I want to see somebody try this with a 20mm wide acrylic box like Floyd but with the water backed up all the way to the top. IE: no air exposure besides the bubbles. Also, I would like to see how this effects the stability of the dissolved O2/CO2 levels throughout the day.

[WannaRace]

With bubbles on screen:

Last dose of 2 part was 12-9 @ 9am

12-9
Test: 10pm
7 Dkh
405 calcium

12-10
Test: 9am
6.9 Dkh
405 calcium

Will let this go all day without dosing and check again tomorrow morning

[Garf]

Pulse - http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1836-Floyd-s-LED-UAS-test
Wannarace - Thankyou.

[WannaRace]

I don't mean to skew the numbers here but my scrubber pump suction cups released from the glass and tipped the scrubber over and was pouring onto a drip tray before falling into the tank, rather than right in. Not sure if this hindered aeration but here are my results..

12-11 @ 9am

Alk 5.9 Dkh

I'd like to give this another go next week.

[Garf]

I don't mean to skew the numbers here but my scrubber pump suction cups released from the glass and tipped the scrubber over and was pouring onto a drip tray before falling into the tank, rather than right in. Not sure if this hindered aeration but here are my results..

12-11 @ 9am

Alk 5.9 Dkh

I'd like to give this another go next week.

Got a calcium reading WR?

[WannaRace]

I did not take that reading. I dosed this morning and just took readings.

7.0 Dkh
400 calcium

I'm guessing calcium beforehand was around 390

[Garf]

Ok. Well assuming you have used 15ppm calcium, this would equate to a 0.75 DKH alkalinity drop (due to calcification or abiotic precipitation). Any more than this indicates that your screen may well be using it. You previously detected a 2 DKH drop, but only 1 DKH today, so it appears to have had an effect (assuming growth on the screen is at a similar stage). Please keep me updated.

[Garf]

Wanna race - you still got bubbles on your screen ?

[WannaRace]

Yes I do. I just have never had good growth so I've been trying to eliminate all variables as to why it won't grow green. I've vacuumed the sump floor which was full of detritus and possible source of my dark growth. I've also suspended my rocks off the floor so as to allow flow right through and allow nothing to settle. Experiment continuing on...

[SantaMonica]

Dark growth is always from too little light.

[Garf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/tv/episode/b01rtdy6/POP!_The_Science_of_Bubbles

[Floyd R Turbo]

Can't see that over here. Says it's for UK eyes only!

[Garf]

Ahh - probably something to do with the unique way the BBC is funded.

http://curry.eas.gatech.edu/Courses/6140/ency/Chapter5/Ency_Oceans/Bubbles.pdf


Air}sea interaction does not solely occur directly across the sea surface,but also occurs across the surface of bubbles suspended in the upper ocean, and across the surface of droplets in the lower atmosphere. This article describes the role of bubbles in air}sea interaction


The major sources of bubbles in the upper ocean are the entrapment of air within the flow associated with breaking waves and with rain impacting on the sea surface

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Can't see that over here. Says it's for UK eyes only!


Top secret I'm afraid.

Need to know basis don't you know.

All very hush hush

http://www.badhaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/q-desmond-llewelyn.jpg

[Ace25]

Can't see that over here. Says it's for UK eyes only!

Hint: http://bit.ly/15dTRoe

You're welcome. ;)

[Garf]

Hint: http://bit.ly/15dTRoe

You're welcome. ;)

Good man :)

[shorty]

So, i designed a new waterfall style, and implemented it with a brand new screen this week. Currently piecing togther a Ca reactor and plan to drip effluent into waterfall somehow. Who's doing this? Thinking of dripping into airline similar to how you guys are introducing air bubbles but worry it'd be noisy, or T'ing a vertical tube off the slotted horizontal pipe high enough to drip effluent into without water shooting out. Any tips? It'll be a month before reactor is online.. So just pre-planning.

[Ace25]

If you are using a dedicated pump you can just place the effluent of the reactor right next to the intake on the pump. If it is from your overflow, then drilling a small hole in the top of the slot pipe to stick the tubing in should be fine. I don't think there will be any noticeable difference in noise level if you drill a hole in the top of the pipe.

[shorty]

Has anyone done this and experienced issues with pipe blockage that was found with direct CO2 injection? Or any other considerations or issues that I haven't thought about.

[Garf]

Has anyone done this and experienced issues with pipe blockage that was found with direct CO2 injection? Or any other considerations or issues that I haven't thought about.

Never had any blockages running with just air. My next test involves putting a loose matrix (very coarse) sponge material under the screen. With any luck, this will then grow bacterial populations which can use the algae exudate and aid in nutrient removal. It should also act as a "bubble stop" for those that don't like small air bubbles in the sump. I plan just squeezing it out in the sump to start with to see if it produces food particles rather than dissolved organics.

[Ace25]

You're welcome again. ;) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rtdr4

http://bit.ly/Z9Ld7J

[Ace25]

A couple good scenes in that documentary above. Garf, what are your thoughts on the 'freshwater on algal cells demo' they showed. I wonder if/how that translates into how we clean our screens.

For those that haven't watched it.. putting freshwater on saltwater algae cells makes them explode and spill out all their insides.

[Garf]

A couple good scenes in that documentary above. Garf, what are your thoughts on the 'freshwater on algal cells demo' they showed. I wonder if/how that translates into how we clean our screens.

For those that haven't watched it.. putting freshwater on saltwater algae cells makes them explode and spill out all their insides.

I remember someone else on here (morganatlanta maybe) used saltwater to rinse his screen and said it grew back quicker. I know the theory to using freshwater is to remove pods but I've never noticed any on mine. Perhaps the little specs of sand that are often said to be baby pods, are nothing of the sort. It's commonly known that some algaes produce anti feeding compounds, to limit herbivory, so perhaps my algae is doing just that. I'm willing to give saltwater rinsing a go, after my current round of fiddling has finished. I would point out that all the literature points to the fact that marine algae are extremely tolerant of salinity change (perhaps a result of being rained on when exposed by the sea).

Its amazing how these documentaries can be so pertinent to out glass boxes. Cheers Ace.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Worth a try. I will do this on one of my screens also...

[Garf]

Had a really good look at the algae this cleaning, no pods evident so saltwater rinsed.

[shorty]

Has anyone done this and experienced issues with pipe blockage that was found with direct CO2 injection? Or any other considerations or issues that I haven't thought about.


Never had any blockages running with just air. My next test involves putting a loose matrix (very coarse) sponge material under the screen. With any luck, this will then grow bacterial populations which can use the algae exudate and aid in nutrient removal. It should also act as a "bubble stop" for those that don't like small air bubbles in the sump. I plan just squeezing it out in the sump to start with to see if it produces food particles rather than dissolved organics.

I'm sorry - I meant running Ca reactor effluent into a scrubber.

[Garf]

Ok, it seems that the algae going white on the screen is nothing to do with Co2 additions. I have been feeding the screen pump with air from outside the sump area. This may well be wasting Co2 that is respired by the tank inhabitants at night. As I see it, the Co2 will travels downwards to the sump and lie on the sump surface until it gets disturbed by opening the doors on the cabinet etc, or just overflows out the sump into the house. I'm gonna utilise this extra Co2 by shortening my pump air feed to below the sump lip, so it sucks in the air from the sump surface. It's worth seeing what happens as it don't cost anything :) having the skimmer air inlet at the surface may serve a similar function.