PDA

View Full Version : GSP and Frogspawn closed up tight



joelespinoza
04-22-2012, 07:33 AM
A little more than a week ago I bought a friends entire 25 gallon livestock, I put it all in my 55 tank right after cleaning both my scrubber screens and I got a nice little phyto bloom (less than 6" visibility). I assume it was caused by a N and or P spike from dumping all the live sand into my sump while my algae scrubbers were weak from cleaning. I put in a aquaclear filter with some floss and activated charcoal to help strain a bit of the phyto out of the water, I was hoping to get it clear enough to organze stuff without squishing anything.

When i put frogspawn and the green star polyps in the tank, they looked amazing, they were doing GREAT. As the tank got to be about 12" of visibility I took out the aquaclear (and charcoal) and topped off the tank with a gallon of kalk into the sump (2 tsp powder and 90ml vinegar). The next day it seemed that only a couple polyps in the GSP were open and the frogspawn was only partially open as well. The day after that the GSP was totally closed and the frogspawn was very close, now it has been 3 days and the water is looking good but both of them are shut of as tight as can be. About a day ago I put some charcoal back in the tank, thinking there might be some coral warfare going on with everything getting moved, but there was no visible result.

Throughout this whole time I have been messing around with my uberbright LED fixture, trying to get everything adjusted to it without burning the crap out of them, it is possible the frogspawn got a little sunburnt, or is not happy with the light changes, however the GSP is in like 5 spots all over my tank, in high light areas, medium light areas, and in shade, since every colony is closed as tight as can be, I assume it is not the light affecting the GSP, although it is not impossible.

So now it has been 3 days and I havent seen a peep from either one. Any idea what might have caused this, and what I could do to fix it?

kotlec
04-22-2012, 10:05 AM
Mine GSP closes when alk is on the low side. Usually it not opens few days more after I have fixed alk. One of todstols does the same , but second one dont cares at all.

kerry
04-22-2012, 11:05 AM
My colt coral closes/shrinks/limp when alk is low to.

joelespinoza
04-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Odd to think my alk might go down AFTER adding kalk.... I mean I know its possible, under extreme circumstances... but I dont think its very likely...


I ordered new salifert test kits for mag, alk and cal. Hopefully they get here soon.

Garf
04-22-2012, 12:22 PM
Joelespinoza - the sand from your friends tank that you put in your sump - it wasn't a deep sand bed was it?

Ace25
04-22-2012, 12:28 PM
Well, that could explain some of your cloudiness. If you add to much Alk at once it will cause a precipitation event, which ends up leading to LOWER Alk and CA levels than you started because the Alk you added combines with the calcium in the tank to form solids (aka snow).

IMO it sounds like you're in "panic mode" and trying to do too many things at once (I have been there myself in the past, and I am sure just about every reefer has at one point). I would suggest backing off dosing anything and putting your LEDs really low for at least a week, talking blues @ no more than 50% and whites at no more than 25%. The corals will be fine at that lighting, even if it ends up being on the low side. There are cloudy/stormy days/weeks in the ocean as well and corals do just fine. I don't think you really have enough corals to require dosing much at this point. My 60G I only dose about 2x a month, when I clean my screen. I put in 20ml of Alk and 10ml of CA 2x a month and everything is fine.

What are your Alk/CA readings today? What are your N/P readings? What is your salinity and temp at? If all your parameters are reading within acceptable levels then I would look at the 2 other things you mentioned, chemical warfare (doubtful, but using carbon will fix that) or lighting (really what I believe the issue is, seen so many people have similar issues after switching to LEDs because they keep trying to make it look, to their eyes, similar to their old lighting, which is the worst thing a person can do).

Garf
04-22-2012, 12:38 PM
I do have a concern that all of this is due to bacterial die off within the sand. All of the bacteria in the sand has evolved populations regarding there exact requirements within the sand layers. When mixing up the sand from a different system, none of the bacteria ends up in the correct areas of the new bed, then they die, all at the same time, lots of trouble. I would ditch the sand to be safe, or at least isolate it from the display pending further investigation.

kerry
04-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Good advice Ace!!! I always have to remind myself to take a step back and look at the parameters, and I mean all of them!!!!! Then take the baby steps to correct it.

Ace25
04-22-2012, 12:55 PM
I agree with Garf as well.. everything he said is correct about the sand bed issues.

kotlec
04-22-2012, 01:21 PM
Does your tank smells ? If you have massive bacteria death enough to cloud your tank - you will be able to smell it for sure. Healthy tank has almost no odour ( At least unpleasant one).

joelespinoza
04-22-2012, 02:35 PM
Sorry, lots of responses, let me try to answer them all:


Well, that could explain some of your cloudiness. If you add to much Alk at once it will cause a precipitation event, which ends up leading to LOWER Alk and CA levels than you started because the Alk you added combines with the calcium in the tank to form solids (aka snow).

My cloudiness was a phytoplankton bloom, not precipitation. I put up pictures of it with the lights off in my light build thread, it is clearly green as hell, not "snow".


IMO it sounds like you're in "panic mode" and trying to do too many things at once (I have been there myself in the past, and I am sure just about every reefer has at one point).

I always put kalk in my topoff water, this was nothing unusual, its just the first time I topped off the tank since I added the new critters. I slightly overfilled it when I added the other tanks stuff, but my salinity was a tad low so I just let it evaporate down to 1.026 (it was about 1.024)


I would suggest backing off dosing anything and putting your LEDs really low for at least a week, talking blues @ no more than 50% and whites at no more than 25%. The corals will be fine at that lighting, even if it ends up being on the low side. There are cloudy/stormy days/weeks in the ocean as well and corals do just fine. I don't think you really have enough corals to require dosing much at this point. My 60G I only dose about 2x a month, when I clean my screen. I put in 20ml of Alk and 10ml of CA 2x a month and everything is fine.

I posted my new plan for my light timing in my build thread a couple days ago, the short story is my new plan is to run 6 blues and 6 violets, at about 600mA for 15 hours a day, and I run the rest of the lighting (turned down some) for 4 hours a day, I plan to increase that by 30 minutes (the shortest time increment on my outlet timer) about every other or every 3rd day once my corals are looking adjusted to it.


What are your Alk/CA readings today?

As I said the new test kits are on the way, the old ones were no longer dependable and thrown away. It has been a while since I felt they were dependable.


What are your N/P readings? What is your salinity and temp at? If all your parameters are reading within acceptable levels then I would look at the 2 other things you mentioned, chemical warfare (doubtful, but using carbon will fix that) or lighting (really what I believe the issue is, seen so many people have similar issues after switching to LEDs because they keep trying to make it look, to their eyes, similar to their old lighting, which is the worst thing a person can do).

No detectable N or P

I added Charcoal in a media bag near my return pump, not optimal but the best place for media I have.

76 degrees

1.026 salinity



The sand from your friends tank that you put in your sump - it wasn't a deep sand bed was it?

No it was only about an inch deep in a 25 gallon tank.


I do have a concern that all of this is due to bacterial die off within the sand. All of the bacteria in the sand has evolved populations regarding there exact requirements within the sand layers. When mixing up the sand from a different system, none of the bacteria ends up in the correct areas of the new bed, then they die, all at the same time, lots of trouble. I would ditch the sand to be safe, or at least isolate it from the display pending further investigation.

I would guess it was only about 20lbs or less and it went into my 40 gallon sump that has a bare bottom, while there may have been some bacteria dieoff, I doubt it was very much. Right now I think the sand in my sump averages a half inch or less in depth. I think my phytoplankton bloom was the result of some dieoff and whatever nutrients were in the sand. Now my phytoplankton bloom is nearly gone and my N and P is non existant.


Does your tank smells ? If you have massive bacteria death enough to cloud your tank - you will be able to smell it for sure. Healthy tank has almost no odour ( At least unpleasant one).

No, there is no odor other than the normal smell, which just smells a bit like the ocean. Not unpleasant at all.

Garf
04-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Joelespinoza - just trying to help, as is every other responder. Good luck.

joelespinoza
04-22-2012, 04:49 PM
Joelespinoza - just trying to help, as is every other responder. Good luck.

I really appreciate the input from everyone, I am very inexperienced doing this, but im trying my best.

kerry
04-22-2012, 08:14 PM
You are at the right place. There is plenty of knowledge here to get you through anything. Many different ways of getting to same result so you can choose the way that works for you. Take this all in and digest it, research it, and then apply it to your situation but stay in the box until you get it dial in!!! Going out of the box usually does not work. Go out of the box when you get/feel comfy with your set-up and know it inside and out. You will do just fine Sir!

joelespinoza
04-23-2012, 07:46 AM
Well it looks like they are slowly emerging, I am still not sure if it was the increased alkalinity, I topped off about 1.5 gallons of kalk yesterday, so about 3 tsp, or if they just took a while to get used to the light.

I am LEANING towards something in the water because ALL of them disappeared at the same time, and they all started comming back at the same time (including the frogspawn) and they are all located in different areas and at vastly different light levels. It doesnt make since to me that one under shade near the bottom and one in the peak light zone exposed at the top have the exact same reaction to the light, but really, who knows? Its certainly possible.

Anyway, thanks everyone, as always I REALLY appreciate feedback!

shrimpman749
04-23-2012, 08:03 PM
MAYBE SLOW DOWN CURRENT ALITTLE IS ALL YOU NEED AND ALSO TRY A SMALL WATER CHANGE JUST MY 2CENTS.

shrimpman749
04-23-2012, 08:07 PM
THE FROGSPAWN CANT TAKE TO HIGH OF A CURENT JUST A LITTLE AND MINE OPENS LIKE A SOFTBALL.

Floyd R Turbo
04-24-2012, 08:30 AM
Dude, you need to click off the caps lock key man!

kotlec
04-24-2012, 11:36 AM
And try to condense your thoughts to single post.