10.000 m3 (2.641.720 Gallons ) Tank Project

[natapa]

First of all i am sorry for my English because i can’t speak English.
Then there is a little idea for you. Please proofread me.
[attachment=0:t4mp4uih]Untitled-2.jpg[/attachment:t4mp4uih]

And here is my story.

I diged a well in my field and i found the water which has 35 ppt salinity and 24-26 C temperature.i thought that i can cultivate seabass with that water.Then i searched the people who are doing this.They are using wells which can fill their pond in one or two days.Also they have reserve wells for emergency.So they are changing water always and not recirculating the water.That means a lot of wells and powerful pumps but i have limited budget.My well can fill my pond in 5,6 days.What do you think for using solar scrubber at seabass pond.i am planing to grow 3 kg fish in 1 m3.it is too much livestock and needs feed in comparison to an aquarium.

I think most important problem is at night and cloudy days.i am afraid that it can reduce the d. oxygen to dangerous levels.i will post my plans but please help me .

[Aquagold]

Welcome.

Give it a try as this is similar to what the Isrealis were trying.
They used the waste water to grow macro and micro algae for Abalone/urchins and shrimps respectively.

I am hoping to use my screens for feeding my urchin and abalone tank.

If you look into how to culture the seabass in a recirculation sytem then you will see what parameters you need to keep an eye on.
If you cant find enough information on them then lk into another species which has a similar body shape.

The screen will help oxygenate the water but you will need a solids filter before the screen to take out your solids. A small drumfilter or a belt filter are both made easy if you are able.
Next thing would be a blower to help stir the water up and help your degassing. The screen will help with this.

Use a demand feeder as you'll get less waste with one of these. Not sure though if Sea Bass will respond to one though.

Try SRAC Publications for more info.

All the best. God Bless

Robert Foster

[natapa]

thank you Robert for reply.
is the oxygen decreasing when you close the light or is the co2 increasing in the water.

[SantaMonica]

A solar scrubber should work a little bit even on cloudy days. Just make it very very big. Will need to be much bigger than what we use for tanks. You have the space outside. Also if you could plant marsh grasses, or other plants, they would help too. Start out with smaller fish. Also maybe you could circulate the water with a windmill or regular pump.

Maybe a horizontal version would be better: http://algalturfscrubber.com/point.htm

[kcress]

Definitely consider a solar turf scrubber. I would also run at least one scrubber thru the night for your oxygen issue. Perhaps you can stagger them since night is usually longer than 8 hrs. Light one to leave six hours into the darkness and light one leaving six hours out of the darkness.

You should not start aggressively with as many as you can possibly cram into your setup. Run conservatively and understand the water quality issues, then on a subsequent cycle you can start ratcheting up the load.

I would expect the turf screens to be more than adequate aeration.

[Aquagold]

Most of his aeration will come from air being pumped through tubing which has holes punched in it at intervals.
Bit like a bubble wall in an aquarium and how it moves water from the top to the bottom.

Have a look at us am macro algae bad and find out what you can on a Biodigestor'. They are used in Aquaponics more often now and might be of some use.

http://srac.tamu.edu/ Some good reding in there.

Rob

[natapa]

thank you for your interest i am late because of my sister's child bearing.
i want to be first guy who is building ats in commercial area in this forum because Scrubber idea is very reasonable.Algae has a lot of utility and important function in aquaworld without arguing.BUT power is nothing without control.?f we can't control the algae it can be much mischief.but how can we do it.
Using light at night would not be economical and useful because the screens will be very big.Other advices are very good for nutrients but i am worry about dissolved o2 and co2.maybe i must use a different filter for the night and both of them in the day.



Maybe a horizontal version would be better: http://algalturfscrubber.com/point.htm

yes i was indecisiving about this subject.i studied similar web pages.why are you thinking like that santa monica(i am nice to meet you.)

advantages of vertical version are
o two sides can see the sun
o it needs very little area at field
o aeration water with flowing

but it is cooling water that is i don't want.

but i think must important subject is the angle of sun light.
Zennzzo on the MFK site said that indirect sun light is better than direct sun light.But "Bob the (reef)builder" on the MASA site turned the screen through the sun.

[SantaMonica]

You can keep the "river" scrubber running all night; that will be your aeration. And if you get aeration, you will get cooling. Solar verticals are not always two-sided; depends on the angle, and if you use a reflector behind it. Easiest is just a "river" (or two) with large pump. You can't remove the "screen" for cleaning, which will cause some yellowing of the water, but you won't even notice it in a pond.

[natapa]

i must clean it every week isn't it
which temperature is agreeable for algae

[Aquagold]

Is there anyway Natapa that you can put your ideas into a drawing format for us to look at and then talk about some of the enviromental factors?

This would solve some of the questions and get answers quicker so that you could evaluate them yourself.

I have experience in Aquaculture - fish farming of marine fish and fresh water plus experience in abalone culture.

Would be great to see you get everything right before you start any construction.
That way you build it right from the start and save money in the long term.

Rob @Aquagold

[worley]

I agree with Aquagold, the more drawings etc. you can give us the better!
Also, can you get any photos of the area you're doing this?

[natapa]

Is there anyway Natapa that you can put your ideas into a drawing format for us to look at and then talk about some of the enviromental factors?


i drew a plan but it is changing while talking about.Now i am working for horizontal scrubber.now my plan is like that:
1-i will give new water which can fill the pond at 5,7 days.
2-i will dig a sump pond and i will circulate all the water in the pond at one or two hours
3-i will use 2 filter system.ats and a different filter.in the day light each of them will work.in the night i will close the scrubber.(if it will decrease the o2)
now i am looking for a filter system which can complement to scrubber.i don't like mechanical filters.i want to construct an living, dynamic ecology.green plants are good for nutrients but photosynthesis is problem at nights.what is your opinion.

[natapa]

[attachment=0:2d10feiv]Drawin.jpg[/attachment:2d10feiv]
i am thinking something like that

[worley]

Looks good, those ATS trays are going to have to be huge to cope with that water volume, what country do you live in, do you get enough direct sunlight?
And go take a photo of the field, I want to see where it's all going :D

[natapa]

i am living in Turkey.Near the Greece islands.climate is very good.always sunny :D if somebody come on a visit. Field is empty now there isn't something interesting but i can take some photos

[natapa]

is the photosynthesis occurs in the water or in the air with the Water Hyacinth or marsh grasses

[kcress]

I am at a loss as to why you are not considering lighting some screen at night to prevent dropping O2 levels? A lot of large aquariums do this specifically to artificially increase the system's effective volume.

Many aquarists use counter period lighting for their refugiums for exactly the same reason.

Not only does this help the O2 levels it also reduces the CO2 levels since all plants respire CO2 during their dark periods.

[natapa]

one side of scrubber is 490 feet length.it must be big cost at the beginning.if i use the lights periodic i must carry them at midnight every day.and i must tidy up them in the morning because of their shadows.i will search for the cost but i am not hopeful for prices.

[kcress]

AH.. I see your problem more clearly now. Thanks for the clarification.

You could consider sodium street lights. They could be off to the side. Still a lot of surface.

[natapa]

is it enough for algae growing

[kcress]

It's my understanding that people use sodium HID lights for their algae based sumps because it works. You'd probably need to confirm that though.


Another thing you will need: A TS that big would be a huge pain to clean manually. You might consider something like a leather splitter design. A couple of rollers with the screen running around them in a large conveyor belt like setup. Put a sharp blade over one roller on the vertical face. As you turn the rollers and the belt passes under the blade you hair cut the turf and the cut-off falls off the vertical face into a hopper ready for disposal. You could even set it up so the belt is in continuous motion. Running it's full length every few days or a week. This would allow a very small motor to provide continual harvest.

[worley]

Odd you should say that kcress, I was thinking along the same lines as manually cleaning screens of that size would be a big job!
Of course, you can also use all the algae that has been removed for composting, it'd make great fertilizer.

[natapa]

good idea

[PHYTO4LIFE]

That's crazy cool would love to have that system for propagating very high end coral's lol
I'll get my goggle's

[PHYTO4LIFE]

Odd you should say that kcress, I was thinking along the same lines as manually cleaning screens of that size would be a big job!
Of course, you can also use all the algae that has been removed for composting, it'd make great fertilizer.

or fuel I think lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_CRQYw9 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_CRQYw9nvc&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MeIgaRf ... xt_from=PL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MeIgaRfyD4&feature=PlayList&p=F05C1AA66E247EB1&index=17&playnext=5&playnext_from=PL)

closed loop bioreactor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyoKTbxe ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyoKTbxerpQ&feature=related)

Algae the fastest growing plant

[Aquagold]

Most aquaculture ventures face two major water problems; suspended solids and dissolved organic matter. Both use valuable oxygen.
You will need to trap and remove the suspended solids so that you can then use the ATS screens for removing the dissolved organics.
The fish you want to grow needs to be if possible a vegetarian fish species so that you can use your Algae from the screens to feed the fish.
If that is not the case then you might want to try some snails, slugs or like animals which will keep your screens cleaned instead of you having to clean them.
Heavy protein fed fish produce large amounts of feacal matter that is rich in proteins that affect oxygen in tanks so they require big filtration.
Supplimental aireation over the night periods will be sufficent to get most stocking densities through the dark periods.
Keep an eye on your alkalinity levels as this will affect your water chemistry more than just CO2.

I suggest that what ever system you end up using - stock your ponds low in fish numbers so that you don't have as many problems,

High stocking density has many pitfalls that require a lot of knowledge that you will want to learn slowly as you go.

I would suggest you go and see other fish farms in your area and discuss your situation with other fish farmers as they will be your best friends in the years to come. Mainly because you will share many trials and errors.
A problem shared is a problem halved. Other fish farmers will also benefit from your algae trials.

We all here will help you further on any algae filter plans yu have but I say as a fish farmer to another seek a local fish farmer you can talk to and share your thoughts with him on the fish farming area.

Otherwise we could double the size of the content of this forum just talking about the dynamics of farming fish.

Use gravity to feed the algae beds after the fish tanks and put some sort of mechanical filtration between the fish and the algae or have it flow past the algae screens.

Are you reusing the water or doing a flow through system from the well?

Reuse of the water will require you to use some sort of solids filter, even if you consider some sort of plants. Plants require oxygen around their 'root' structure.

[SantaMonica]

Good points, but there is a fly in the ointment...


You will need to trap and remove the suspended solids so that you can then use the ATS screens for removing the dissolved organics.

Scrubbers don't remove organics, just Inorganics.


If that is not the case then you might want to try some snails, slugs or like animals which will keep your screens cleaned instead of you having to clean them.

Having animals eat the screens will only put the material back into the water, which then won't solve your lack-of-oxygen problem. Best to isolate the screen so no animals get on it.

[Aquagold]

Most ventures of this sort are trying a poly culture technique so that the algal screens can become a food source for something else.
Aireation is usually done through venturi injection and pure oxygen.
The nutrient loading in aquaculture is much higher than any home system and the whole thing is balanced between too much feed and not enough.

I agree in part to what you are saying SantaMonica, I would use a quote here but I;m still figuring out forums. but there are more elements to this equation that just how scrubbers work.

As for the inorganic and organic terminology, would I be correct in saying the surface area of the combined scrubbers pipes, sides of ponds, etc convert organic into inorganic? If this is the case then the scrubber will uptake the converted organics.

Next we look at putting snails for example on the screens to feed. They are doing the same conitual process we do once a week with a cleaning.
I know this is the case as it was what we did on the abalone farm. We ended up with nearly 300m2 worth of screen growing 400=800,000 ab's and still we ran out of feed. To get abalone to settle on your algal plates you have to manually scrub the plates semi clean to 'mow' the algae down so that the algae had a nice pasture to graze on.
Instead of manually scrubbing we ended up using bigger abs to 'mow' our algae plates.
Before the new abs went in we harvested the older abs and seeded the fresh plates with the swimming larvae.

All this cut down on manual labour which costs money.

Aquaculture is where science and economics meet in a tug of war arena, with the farmer trying to keep some sort of balance and make a profit.

Only coral reefs seem to have this finer tipping point and require absolute 'perfect water'.

Hoping that I'm not just trying to justify my own remarks but are backed up by what I've seen on the farm I managed and my own place.

[SantaMonica]

Ok as long as you remove the snails, that's sort of the same as removing algae; the nutrients are coming out.

However, for the organics, I think what you are referring to is the bacteria that eats rotting food; they turn the food into ammonia and CO2, which is why you don't want any food laying around; you want all food to be eaten by corals or fish. And the organics you are referring to, those microscopic food particles that are dissolved in the water, go through the same process of being eaten by these bacteria; however this type of bacteria is everywhere in the system, not just on surfaces. The "surface" type of bacteria (which lives on the surface of glass, plastic, rocks, sand, etc) is the "nitrifying" type, which does not eat Organics (food). Instead they eat Inorganics (Ammonia/Ammonium and Nitrite, the ones we are concerned with) and convert them to Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate. Then of course, in the DSB's or live rock are yet a third type of bacteria which eat the Inorganic Nitrate, converting it to Nitrogen gas. What remains, however, is Inorganic Phosphate, and this is what causes nuisance algae problems.

So, algae (whether nuisance, or scrubber) eat mostly Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate. Not Organics. Thus, having a scrubber does not contribute to removing Organics. Scrubbers just remove the results of rotting Organics (Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate).

[Aquagold]

Will leave it there and see how natapa is going finding more out about his fish farming journey :D

Are you plans changing at all natapa on how you think you might build this operation?
Did you get a chance to talk with any fish farmers in your area?

[natapa]

i am so so sorry i was working hard for legal permissions of farm.it is cause a lot of work especially environmentalist is a big problem.i think i can begin to sending pictures in couple of months.


Are you plans changing at all natapa on how you think you might build this operation?
Did you get a chance to talk with any fish farmers in your area?

i will be first farmer in my city.i research other cities.there are some people doing that.but they are simple inexperienced farmers.they are not reuse the water so they can't earn money because of electric bills.Also i think they can't supply regulation for this reason.


I suggest that what ever system you end up using - stock your ponds low in fish numbers so that you don't have as many problems,


i am thinking like you i don't want to high stock but decreasing the water changing is advantageous.i don't know, is it the same thing.

And poly-culture.i thought to much on it.living creatures which are eating dissolved organics and fishes are eating this living creatures this is a very good idea.but growing that living creatures is more difficult than growing fish so i decide that living creature variety cause the same amount problems.for example seabass with grey mullet is reasonable but living creatures excepted the fish is risky.




You will need to trap and remove the suspended solids



And here is my question.i get confused in this subject.in new sources most of people saying mechanical filtration is damaging water health.i think S.M is thinking like that isn't it.

[kcress]

Yes, fixed hurt water quality but only in so much as they become nitrate factories. If you have sufficient TS area then that is not really an issue. I hate to say it again :lol: but some sort of motorized screen filter that the water must pass thru then gets automatically dumped in the same manner as I mentioned earlier would carry the bulk of the filtered waste out of the water avoiding some of the TS loading.

[SantaMonica]

If you clean the mechanical filters daily, would be ok.

[Aquagold]

Mechanical filters in aquaculture are not the same as aquarium filters.
Fish farmers use drum filters or belt filters which take the small food particles out into a waste section.
They do though produce a waste water that then needs to be dealt with ie to land or cleaned for reuse.
Parabolic sreen filters can work well if designed in properly.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... een-Filter (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3868/Parabolic-Screen-Filter). Look elsewhere as well at these.

On the matter of polyculture, each organism is grown to take advantage of the waste from another animal.
Each organism then has a value as a saleable product. A bit like feeding cattle over ponds and the manure feeding the fish once it turns into free floating algae.
These ponds usually have a detrivore species which consumes the cattle manure that helps process the waste for the other fish species.

These are all just thoughts on what could be done but not being there and knowing what you have available is hard from here.

Biggest problem most businesses have is not having enough capital to keep going until the venture becomes profitable.

I visited a local farmer yesterday I know who has been using some of my gear. He has sold all his livestock and is closing the doors.
Some of the problems was that he was not making it pay because of, recirculation setup not performing as was desired, biology of animals not been satisfied by the recirc setup, microbiol pressure in the recirc unit not growing good 'bacteria' but growing too much bad 'bacteria'..... all these things plus others have lead to the closure of another multi million dollar enterprise. The original developer lost nearly 3 mil.

I've been in the industry over ten years and seen alot come and go because of some of the reasons above.

Do your homework before you put any money into the infrastructure. It wil save you money in the long run. Otherwise do it at the moment as a hobby to get a feel for it.

[kcress]

Interesting stuff this. I wanted to do aqua culture. I even took college courses and seminars on the subject. Then I looked at the paperwork hassles(25years ago).. I couldn't deal with it all.

[natapa]

don't discourage me.i am enough suspicious

[natapa]

i was thinking plan like that.i can add mechanical filters before the ats
[attachment=0:20aldzag]Drawing2.jpg[/attachment:20aldzag]

[Aquagold]

Don't do waterfall technique in joining ponds. Unless you can guarrantee the success of your scrubber in adding Oxygen.
Why not do a large pond that you filter through your scrubber and grow the fish in floating cages?
That way the water volume will give you some room to make errors in the beginning.

You will need to watch your salinity levels getting affected with heavy rain fall or any run off water from the land.
Runoff water is something you don't want.

I'm not sure on your fish species needs as far as culture requirements but will the temperature vary much?
Are you liming the water to keep alkalinity.

Is a hard thing to get away from needing to use water pumps when farming fish in ponds.
Do some homework on airlifts for moving the water.
I haven't seen it used but heard that it can be done.

Pity your so far away or i'd pop over and help you design a system.
I fly out for Cambodia on the 6 July to help build a fish breeding and grow out facility for a mission organisation we sponsor.
Am there 5 weeks this time but plan to try a 3 month stay next time.

All the best Natapa. :)

Rob