new tank. scrubber only setup.

[Wopadobop]

So I started this tank out with all the bells and whistles (skimmer, gfo reactor, carbon reactor) Because I had them laying around from an older setup after I moved. After reading through this forum for a few months I decided that this all makes perfect sense. Why In the world would you limit food intake to something your trying to keep healthy and grow? That's like not feeding your child cause you don't want to change diapers(although way more complex in a reef tank) but you get my point.

So I decided to remove all that money pit #$%^ and just diy a scrubber from the get go. It has been about 4 weeks after cycling the tank with dry rock and dry sand. I used Dr. tims one and only(I actually know this stuff works I have used before ). 3 day cycle 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 50 ppm nitrate. Added all my live stock, and started feeding 1 cube of brine and roughly one cube of prawn roe(for the mandarin) sense I was not able to keep any rock from the previous tank due to major hydroid infestation.

I figured I would wait and let the nutrients build up for a week while the scrubber was being finished.
Heres what I got.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/scrubber004.jpg

Started seeing what looks to be brown algae on the rocks. Are these diatoms? cyano?
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/scrubber006.jpg

Here is the scrubber. I have it hooked up to a 1600 lph about 225 gph skimmer pump. Screen is 6x7 inches 42 in^2. 23 watt bulb and is one sided for now.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/scrubber001.jpg

and here is the growth after 1 day of running.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/scrubber002.jpg

IS it normal to only have brown ? should I decrease the screen size to allow for better growth? Is the lighting okay?
I would really like to keep a photo journal of the growth of the corals and fish in this tank for all the haters out there. I just know this is gonna work and I would like to do it right. Thanks :)

[Wopadobop]

So I guess I should ask. If there isn't any green hair algae in the tank. Where does it come from ? Do I need to seed the screen?

[kotlec]

Patience is all you need by now.
Screen need time to mature. Filtering is not strong until.

[sklywag]

Kotlec is right. Time. You should figure out lighting from both sides. And feeding it from overflow to lose that other pump. Crazy thing is your display may get ugly before getting better. Rock house phosphates and nitrates. So it should or will leach out.

I don't know the science of this but I'm a firm believer. It's and awesome feeling knowing that all that is needed is a return pump and two lights in the sump. Of course the heater but I'm talking filtration wise. And wise it is.

When other reefers come over for something and all they see is a screen with lights on it and no water changes for almost five months now. They question all their equipment like you did. You will gain faith in your system once it matures and find yourself not worrying about it.

My last setup as well as my temporary setup I have now. I would leave for over a week on vacation and the only thing I would check before leaving was topping off the ATO.

[Wopadobop]

It really is amazing. The more I research and look into the system the more it makes sense. With all the money I have left over I'm thinking of getting a tank controller and the cool thing is I can get a base model and it is waaayyy over kill. Without all the other systems to run I can use it to run dosing pumps and really dial it in. does anyone else use these? I have also noticed that my ph has been less up and down and more of a swing since adding the scrubber and removing the skimmer( really only good thing a skimmer is for o2 in the water) and I actually had to turn my heater on. Tank now sits at 79 f and stays there. green bubble tip is slowly starting to bubble up and my acros and digis are fully extended. the screen is still just brown but starting to turn green after just 3 days. This is awesome. I think maybe starting a tank with a scrubber may be better than adding one later as the system balances to having it right out the gate. Super excited to see the results a week from now.

This forum kicks so much ass it's not even funny!

[Wopadobop]

So it's been about 2 months. After a full blown outbreak of algae and cyano while I was vacation and my mom was watching the tank, the loss of a few birds nest and my favorite mandarin, things are starting to look up.

New additions:

Radion xr30w : I love this fixture. Cranks out plenty of light and the customizable times, kelvin rating and intensity through out the day are just amazing.

So I changed a few things on my scrubber after a month of running an over sized and under lit screen. I now have 4 3 watt Cree red LEDs per side of a 6x4 screen running for 8 hours on 16 hours off. Took the advice to run the waterfall from my overflow. Took a little tuning to get it right but it's running really well now, nice solid sheet off the whole screen. Time will tell how this setup will work out I suppose.

Has anyone used the ecotech vortex pumps. Would one be enough for a 36 inch tank ? Mp10 or 40?
I'm using the cheap jb wave maker now but the circulation is very focused and can't seem to get flow across the sand without making a sand storm. As I currently have cyano issues I'm looking for some way to move the water column a bit better for nutrient export.

[Wopadobop]

Some updated photos of scrubber and dt.
SCrubber : 8x cree 660 nm red leds run 8 on 16 off. (yes that is a skimmer in my sump, just running as back up while the new screen grows in)

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank006.jpg

This stuff grows like a weed.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/005.jpg

sprungs stunner . Tried to capture it under actinic light but my leds just swamp my camera with blue and cant see it.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/002.jpg

fts!
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/001.jpg

new setosa frag. (god i take terrible photos)
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank013.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Let the weeds grow !

[kotlec]

Single pump is always worse than few. Single looks nicer - thats for sure. With multiple units you can adjust streams to your liking and move all water without making tornado in tank. I would go for 2 smaller wortexs in place of of one bigger with closed eyes. You can make alternating flow this way, wich is very benefical. Even two simple pumps alone can make more turbulence.

[Wopadobop]

So lately My corals have gone from growing quickly to not at all and are actually experiencing some tissue loss.
my params are as follows.

salinity 1.025
po4 0.04 (hannah checker)
nitrates 0
ca 500
mag 1500
alk 10 dkh
temp 78 (very stable)
ph from 8.0- 8.2

I have no clue whats going on. I have very good corraline growth and no algae in the dt at all. I am feeding 1.5 cubes a day. scrubber grows aquamarine colored slime.

any sudgestions wood be awesome. Im at a total loss. I have lost almost all my coral at this point. :(

[Wopadobop]

So lately I h ave been losing corals left and right. I Can't put my finger on why. All of my tank params are what I would consider excellent.

salinity 1.025 (tunze osmilator ato so this stays very stable)
nitrates 0
po4 0.04 (hanah checker)
calcium 500
mag 1500 (3 times calcium level) elos tests kit tested.
kh 10

The only thing I have done differently in the following photos was changing out from 2x 175w metal halide to a radion led unit. I took precautions when acclimating the corals to the new lighting. Could this fixture be too strong?

metal halides
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/scrubber004.jpg

leds
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/001.jpg

youll notice that a lot of the corals are missing. well thats because they basically melted. They colored up under the leds but then just withered and died.

I am using distilled water. could there be copper in it? I dont dose anything as far as buffers trace elements. i do use kalk in my ato but it is mixed at 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons and is completely dissolved before going into reservoir. I am seriously at a loss here. All my experience tells me there is something very off but I cant seem to find it. My scrubber grow aquamarine slime and some hair algae. 4x 660nm cree 3w leds per side run at 8 on 16 off. screen is 7 by 4 and im feeding about 1.5 cubes a day.

Idunno what else to do .

:(

[Garf]

Close ups of the corals would be good. From what I can see, the corals are losing tissue from the base first, is this correct ? I can also see a pink coloration on the sand, have you got a cyano outbreak ?

[kotlec]

Sad to hear that.
Do you still run skimmer ? May be corals are starved ?

[Garf]

From what I see of the frags, they have not encrusted onto the substrate before you bought them. I would always ensure that basal growth is evident before purchasing, this rules out poorly conditioned frags that can have you chasing your butt in circles trying to find a problem that you may not have. It is also evident that you've been seriously moving your sand around, I think you may want to remove this issue from the equation also.

[SantaMonica]

Could also go back to the other lighting.

[Floyd R Turbo]

It might have been acclimation to the light. LEDs are much more intense, I read about this happening when you switch from MH to LED a lot.

[Garf]

If you zoom in onto the corals when the metal halide pic was taken, it looks as if things were not well even then. Starvation may be the ultimate cause but if you have bought poorly conditioned / starved frags then you stand little chance of improving them after tissue loss starts.

[kerry]

Try cutting back the blue's if you can. These to us do not look bright but to the coral they are BLASTING!!! The blues need to be ramped up very slow over many weeks time for some coral. I made this same mistake and took out some of mine when I added my DIY Led's.

[Wopadobop]

Try cutting back the blue's if you can. These to us do not look bright but to the coral they are BLASTING!!! The blues need to be ramped up very slow over many weeks time for some coral. I made this same mistake and took out some of mine when I added my DIY Led's.
I did go from a 10k 8 hour period to a 14k 8 hour period. and my mh were very old and running at about 8k with no actinic supplementation. This could be a factor. Some of the sps i lost were still under mh but the scrubber was just starting out so It could have been a high nutrient death.

I did have a large cyano out break after i changed to a wave maker with larger power heads. This is mostly back under control after the major sand disturbance.
I also increased my slot width so that a lot of the water from my overflow wasnt having to bypass the scrubber . way better growth over the last few days. I agree that starved frags are basically doomed from the start, but they were free so I took them. But, the slimers and green stag were encrusted and they died as well. birdsnest as far as i know dont encrust?

I am still running a skimmer and it is pulling a lot of very green skimmate at this point. That is what i was waiting for so I will remove it slowly over the next week. This tells me I have healthy phyto populations in the water. Or is this wrong?

[SantaMonica]

Yes the green is probably phyto, unless you have algae detaching from your screen.

[Wopadobop]

No detaching. Screen is very rough and growth is hardy , cleaned every 7 days like clock work. Does the aquamarine colored growth mean anything in particular ?I can take photos if need be.

[Garf]

Photos please, most intrigued.

[Wopadobop]

full tank shot.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank001.jpg
setosa
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank002.jpg
nem.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank010-1.jpg
screen back lit so you can see the colors.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank011.jpg
screen in natural light
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank012-1.jpg
that is only 2 days of growth I cleaned it on friday cause my slot was all gunked up.

[Wopadobop]

some chalice, think its a sprungs stunner. you can see the green skeleton where the tissue has receded but I think its because of a shadow and not enough light as the areas with light have new growth almost daily.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank005.jpg

these colored up nicely and seem to be the only ones doing well.
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o526/Joshua_Clemons/newtank003.jpg

[tebo]

It might have been acclimation to the light. LEDs are much more intense, I read about this happening when you switch from MH to LED a lot.

I agree with this comment

This happens very often underestimate the power of the LEDs is very serious

I lost a few corals because of the lack of acclimatization I gave them to change my lamp

The problem is not with the parameters, is in poor acclimatization

regards

[Wopadobop]

I just looked up the pr ratings for the radion fixture. At 12 inches abovethe tank the norm at 100% is 645 par 3 inches below the surface...... Holy crap batman that's twice what I had with the mh. I think I need to be more careful when placing corals in the future.
Thanks guys.

[Wopadobop]

SO a quick update.

still lots of cyano on sand. Because of this cyano I have stopped feeding as much as I should. thus creating a recipe for disaster. Ultra low nutrients+ shit pot loads of light= coral bleaching. SO here is my thoughts on how to fix the situation.

1) because the system is based on an ats filter we must feed or I should say are FREE to feed more than most.

2) I notice that a lot of people who are switching to an ats for algae/cyano recovery in there tanks report good results but then the cyano comes back.

3)Because we have sand we can not then have enough flow to keep detritus from filling up and overwhelming our sand beds and creating the very problem that we initially began trying to correct. I have read quite a few posts of people feeding heavily at first, showing good growth and :), then stopped feedings all together to correct a cyano issue.

Logical deduction, and from what i know of sandbeds and there bacterial flock limitations lead me to one .... stupidly simple... solution. IM GOING BARE BOTTOM.
think about it. These two methods of reef husbandry go hand in hand so well, high flow, detritus in suspension. sounds good to me.

I do however have a question. The bb style of reef keeping realize heavily on the use of a skimmer and mechanical filtration. What effect will this have on an ats system? I cant think of a downfall other than losing some planktonic food availability. Maybe I can meet in the middle? worth a try? Ill keep you posted. :)

[kerry]

As long as the sand has a current across it so the food cannot lay on it the cyano will go away. This current does not have to be so much as to move the sand. You may need smaller multiple units. Also more hermits help as well.

[sklywag]

My Cyano has gone away on the sand bed. None on rocks either. I do get it on my overflow though. It comes and goes. Kerry mentioned Hermits. Good CUC works.
http://www.reefs2go.com/c=y5yosT9OXe1ygJ8PUHxvvKWB0/

[SantaMonica]

Yes all you need is a little current on the sand. Also, you can use larger heavier sand particles.

Scrubber-only cannot make an ultra-low nutrient system. The algae will stop growing before that.

Bare bottom does not mean skimmer. I do BB and have no skimmer.

[kotlec]

Scrubber-only cannot make an ultra-low nutrient system.

Can we hear more on that ?

[Wopadobop]

Bare bottom does not mean skimmer. You are correct . Using larger particles for a sand bed would be useful . I believe my shallow sand bed ( which I never siphon as I was told not to touch it) has hit saturation. I would rather just not have any sand and siphon detritus. The advantage of a barebottom tank allows us to control the nutrient levels in our tanks to our needs. I believe it is a tool I can utilize.

[Garf]

Going bare bottom has the benefits of not becoming a nutrient sink and the glass bottom acts like a mirror if kept clean which bounces the light back up allowing more coral growth in a natural fashion. However, fine sand does not saturate in my experience due to micro faunal activity. Tried a regular arogonite sand many years ago and could not get the activity in the sand bed that I now get from my play sand silica bed. Never cleaned my sand in over 5 years.

[SantaMonica]

You also don't need to siphon. Detritus breaks up and flows around.

Algae does not have the ULNS nutrient-pulling power that chemicals or bacterial have; algae has about the same nutrient-pulling power that corals have, because corals use algae too.