Newbie Scrubber

[holidayz]

Hi Everyone

My name is Ray and I'm new here. Felt so lucky that I bump into this fabulous site. :)
Many thanks to everyone, I've learnt a lot here.

I've been battling with algae problem for a long long time. It has been so bad that I almost wanted to give up this hobby. All my rocks are covered with algae, although both N and P are non measurable and other parameters all fine as well. Really don't know what went wrong until I'm here and find out it is those algae keeping my N and P non-measurable. My fish and corals all fine (well, maybe I should thanks those algae which I hated them down to the bone!) but I cannot keep purple color sps. I'm hoping using the knowledge learnt here will help me win the battle with the algae and eventually being able to keep purple sps.

I started off with a "half-legged" scrubber, with drilled holes instead of a slot, badly reflected and under power light, and many other no no(s). Woh !! Even with that, I'm seeing great results! Algae comes back much slower after I clean them off the rocks! Before, they come back THICK within a week. After 1 week, I removed my bio-pellets and test water parameters everyday, all cool! 2nd week, I removed my PhosGuard reactor, parameters still good :) 3rd week, I removed the skimmer....really standing on my toes.....haha, still good. I do still keep my weekly 15% water change. More than 2 months now, started to see some P, 0.08. Still no N. Lucky, I just finished my new scrubber and I hope I've done it right this time.

It is a almost straight slot now, 3mm wide. 4 sides and the top cover with reflective materials except bottom (wrong calculation on materials). Screen is (will be) 11" X 5". I don't know if I shall cut and use my existing screen, which is still growing brown after 2 months (see pic below), or I shall use a fresh screen.
Light is 2 9X1W LED on both sides. That is enough for a 11 X 5, right? How many hours should I light it up with this light? I know there are more flaws on the unit, please advise how/where I shall improve.

Woh....getting long. Again, many thanks to everyone!!

Here are the pics

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2636&d=1339725384
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2637&d=1339725386
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2638&d=1339725389
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2639&d=1339725391
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2640&d=1339725462

[holidayz]

Oh....forgot the current brown screen.
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2642&d=1339729793

Is it better to cut and re-use this screen?

Thanks!

[SantaMonica]

Welcome.

Will have to try the LEDs and find out. It's not a whole lot of power, so I'd start with 18 hours. You can re-use the screen if you want, although it would be neat to have them both running for a while.

[holidayz]

Thanks a lot SM for the quick reply and suggestion!

I'll make a new screen and run them both until the new one kicks in then.

I thought I read here somewhere 1W led = 3W compact fluorescent? Maybe I remember wrong.
I've ordered 2 extra lights with Red/White, initially for testing purpose to see if R/B is better or R/W is better.
Will see if I can remove the middle "mirror" and put that in, making 3 X 9W on each side, total 54W, that will be better?

[SantaMonica]

I did not see a mirror, but lights are always better than mirrors.

[holidayz]

Yeah, the picture hard to see....
All grey areas are mirrors. The top black cover using the reflective materials bought from you.
So I'm planning to remove the middle section between the 2 existing lights and put a 3rd light there.
Haha, if I can, they bond so well....If I can't, will run it the way it is and see what happens. Worst comes worst, build another one.
Hope I don't have to, this one took me more than a week. I'm really bad at these..... :(

[Wopadobop]

Where did you get those lights? Those seems pretty amazing. have been toying with using these http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED-Light-Bulbs/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-202324430/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

they are very small and only 20 bucks a peice.

[holidayz]

I'm from Canada (Toronto) and I got it from a LFS. No online purchase. I like that they're water resistance, safer when I put the scrubber on top of the sump.
But I saw them here as well in the States. http://reefkoi.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=2199

[holidayz]

Here is the screen 1 week.
2722

[holidayz]

After about a month of my old "testing" scrubber, algae growth on the DT is kind of controlled...if I clean them off the rocks, takes long time to grow back.
But since then, this Brown patches of don't know what started to grow on my rocks. Alhough previously, algae on rocks are brown as well, they can be brushed off very easily. These new brow patches, cannot be removed. The pic below show a rock that I just tried brushing for over 5 minutes, those brown patches just won't go away.
What are those? Can the scrubber eventually get rid of them?
2723

[SantaMonica]

How are you wanting the rocks to look? Rock in the wild are completely covered with periphyton.

[Garf]

Looks quite a good base for growth as the system matures. It will change over time. Sterile rocks are not good rocks in my book.

[holidayz]

Thank you for your reply, SM and Garf.
Understand there should, and will be, lots of things growing on the rocks and most of them required, to keep the water clean.
I'm just worried that by the speed those brown patches grow, it will cover the enitre rock in short time.
Even if they are beneficial, this particular species looks so ugly. Imagine the entire rock in this brown stuff, what is the difference than it is covered with brown/green hair algae, which we're trying to eliminate?

I helped unpack couple shipments for my LFS, those live rocks all covered with numerous things, but I can hardly find this ugly brown stuff on them.
Just wanted to see what they are and if there is anyway, or the scrubber can remove them.

[Garf]

Yes indeed it may spread over the entire rock, but won't last. If you have seeded your tank with live rock, this bland rock soon becomes populated by organisms from the live rock and in 6 months time you won't be able to tell the difference between this rock and premium live rock. Just keep your tank healthy.

[holidayz]

Cool !! As long as there is a time frame that they will disappear, I'm more than happy!
Not quite understand what you mean by "seeded the tank with live rock".... I have about 80 lbs of live rock in the DT, the pic I show above is just one of them.
Not all of the rocks started to see this brown stuff, but...hmm....about 20%. Some looks pretty healthy, with sponges, coralline algae, and some other organisms on it.
I'll swarp some older rocks that I don't see fit and replace with new ones, slowly.
Thanks again for your reply.

[Garf]

Time, that's all it will take.

[holidayz]

Yes sir! :)
Esp when my new screen is still very thin, and not quite green. Haha, but I'm so excited. My old screen never see green.
Let you know how it looks next week. Hope will be better as time goes by.
BTW, screen size is 11 X 5 and I feed 2 frozen cubes (those commercial regular size, so slightly larger than 1cm X 1cm) per day, now lights on 18 hours. Anything I need to change?

[Garf]

If your putting enough light onto it, it will get green, trust me?

[holidayz]

If your putting enough light onto it, it will get green, trust me?

Haha, you bet!
Show you the growth next week and please tell me if I needed more lights.

[Wopadobop]

New dry rock always ( I have started5 tanks with it) goes from white to brown to green to purple/blue/ pink or red. The reason you are seeing this is your rock is not smothered by the gha anymore. This is a good thing. You will see :)

[holidayz]

New dry rock always ( I have started5 tanks with it) goes from white to brown to green to purple/blue/ pink or red. The reason you are seeing this is your rock is not smothered by the gha anymore. This is a good thing. You will see :)

Hehe, cool !! :)

[holidayz]

2nd la, and when I clean it couple days ago....Oh No!
Noticed most of the water spray towards the box instead of the screen!
Growth is very thin I think because of that?

2833

Also very brown/yellow. But where the screen sticks into the pipe is green. Why?

I've now put a plastic wrap around it and noticed the growth is much faster. Got more that above growth in just 2 days. But color still more or less the same.
Any suggestions?

[SantaMonica]

Because it's in the slot and protected from light. The rest is over-lit.

[holidayz]

Because it's in the slot and protected from light. The rest is over-lit.

Ok...so try cut down the light from 18 hours to 12?
I've tried more flow, but the spray becomes stronger and it even pushes the plastic wrap away from the screen.

[Garf]

Try inserting the screen fully into the slot, looks like your screen is sort of dangling below the slot.

[holidayz]

Try inserting the screen fully into the slot, looks like your screen is sort of dangling below the slot.
Yeah, I only have it inserted maybe 3mm into the slot only.
Will try that along with less hours after cleaning this weekend.

[holidayz]

3rd week. Cut down light to 12 hours, seems a little more green and still very slimy. Just wait or cut down light further?
Now inserted the screen fully into the slot, see if the spray gets better after a few days as it is always good after cleaning.
2871
The other side
2872

[SantaMonica]

Could probably let it grow more days. Seems kind of big for the feeding.

[holidayz]

Could probably let it grow more days. Seems kind of big for the feeding.

Right, would be too big according to your feeding/screen size guideline.
I was thinking using a larger screen would help clean up rock leaching and whatever bad things left in the water since day 1 faster.
What I have in mind is when all rocks are clear from gha and I don't need to clean the glass every other day, then it is time to cut down the screen size to match the feeding.
Does that make sense or it won't work this way?

[WannaRace]

Too much surface area allows the algae to spread and not grow thick 3D green which filters better than what you've got there. Essentially, cutting the screen down to feeding is actually going to speed up exactly what you're trying to do.

[holidayz]

Too much surface area allows the algae to spread and not grow thick 3D green which filters better than what you've got there. Essentially, cutting the screen down to feeding is actually going to speed up exactly what you're trying to do.

O...ic.
Since my light is long, stratching from one end of the box to the other, I shall make the screen shorter instead of making it narrower?
Screen is quite short already, only about 4 inches (was 5 inches and now I stick one end all the way into the slot, only 4 inches expose to light now).
If cut it down to feeding size, would mean only 2 inches exposed to light (11 inches wide), would that be too short?

[SantaMonica]

It won't be too short if you can reflect all of the light to it. If not, leave it long.

[holidayz]

It won't be too short if you can reflect all of the light to it. If not, leave it long.

Ok...lots of light will be wasted if only 2 inches long.
Will leave it the way it is and try to add more flow if possible. Hope pushing the screen all the way into the slot will allow me to do that.
If still no good, then will have to build a new one concentrating the light to 2 inches screen.

[holidayz]

Yuck!
2994
I just took a look today after box in use for a month...
You guys have this? Normal? Or something wrong and there is a way to prevent this?
I cleaned it all off. Sigh...there goes lots of pods. :(

[SantaMonica]

For strong filtering, you need to clean that. Plug the drain with a stopper, and clean it out.

[holidayz]

For strong filtering, you need to clean that. Plug the drain with a stopper, and clean it out.

I did clean it out. Took the whole box out and clean it with a scrapper.
So, this is normal? I just need to clean it everytime I clean the screen?

[SantaMonica]

I do, for strong filtering. I use a turkey baster to remove the water, then a paper towel to clean it out.

[Floyd R Turbo]

My old one eventually built up coralline that caused the algae to easily attach. I would occasionally soak it in straight vinegar to clean it completely. This is also one of the reasons I started using the false bottom - easy to clean

[holidayz]

My old one eventually built up coralline that caused the algae to easily attach. I would occasionally soak it in straight vinegar to clean it completely. This is also one of the reasons I started using the false bottom - easy to clean

Yeah, mine has that as well, that's why I need a scrapper to clean it.
False Bottom? What is that, do you mind sharing that?

[holidayz]

My old one eventually built up coralline that caused the algae to easily attach. I would occasionally soak it in straight vinegar to clean it completely. This is also one of the reasons I started using the false bottom - easy to clean

Saw the False Bottom on your site. Thanks!!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah, mine has that as well, that's why I need a scrapper to clean it.
False Bottom? What is that, do you mind sharing that?

Click the first link in my signature. In my L2 I have stand-offs that support a panel that sits above the drain. This routes water around the sides and prevents algae from direct contact with the drain to reduce the chance of the drain clogging from algae growing into it. The secondary effect is that nothing of any substance grows on the bottom of the box. Algae does grow and can attach to the false bottom, but the removable panel is a lot easier to clean, and since you can clean it fully with every cleaning, there's less chance of calcified buildup forming on it.

In retrospect it's probably one of the better aspects of the L2, but I can't take full credit for it, the seed was planted in my head by Chrissu in a conversation he and I had about a year or so ago.

[holidayz]

Playing around with flow, lid hours, and not much progress on having a good green growth.
3099
What I found is I might be jumping steps.....I need to get a good, even, constant flow first before going any further.
I've managed to get the flow even throughout 1 side of the screen, but then the other side would have minimal flow.
Tried making the slot bigger, 4mm now, and feed it from both ends.
3100
Max result is what I mentioned above, one side of the screen is good while the other got very little flow.
And what make it worse is the situation changes as the algae grows thicker. Then flow becomes whatever it wants to be.....
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.

[SantaMonica]

Just make sure the clean the slot and top of the screen real good.

[holidayz]

Just make sure the clean the slot and top of the screen real good.

Thanks SM.
That I've been doing faithfully every week.
Although a lot of work, I wonder if I use 2 tubes with holes to "spray" water towards the screen will make things better?
That seems might prevent the growth from blocking the slot.
Anyone tried that and results good?

[SantaMonica]

Been tried; can't say good results. A light-shield is probably better.

[holidayz]

Been tried; can't say good results. A light-shield is probably better.
Tks! Save me lots of trouble!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Or add the 'Morgan' Saran wrap over the pipe

[holidayz]

Or add the 'Morgan' Saran wrap over the pipe

Thanks Floyd.
I've tried that (plastic wrap, not sure about the 'Morgan' part) but somehow result not quite good.
Visually, the flow looks better, but wonder if it is because the algae can't "breath" freely, lots of brown, worse than what I'm having now.
And when it is towards the last couple days where algae really grows thick, flow is still very uneven. Last couple days I mean day 6 and 7.

[holidayz]

Too much light?
3153

[kotlec]

Looks similar to mine. Reducing light didnt make it green but rather more brown. May be need more time. Or may be completely different situation...

[holidayz]

Looks similar to mine. Reducing light didnt make it green but rather more brown. May be need more time. Or may be completely different situation...
Thanks Kotlec.
Hmm...so what to do to make it better....What else you've done to try correcting this Kotlec?

[kotlec]

I was dosing iron . Got gha in display and now cant get rid of it. Dropped iron.
I exchanged pump to increase flow. No changes at all. May be needed to increase even more ?
Also I had plexi screen before. Exchanged to proper canvas. No effect. Same growth.

My nitrates are barely detectable . Last measurement finished at 4ppm. Phos also hovers around 0.03. This says to me that even yellow growth is filtering somehow. If My SPS wasnt brownish , I would never bothered about it .

[SantaMonica]

Looks like screen needs more nutrients... flow, iron, etc.

[holidayz]

I was dosing iron . Got gha in display and now cant get rid of it. Dropped iron.
I exchanged pump to increase flow. No changes at all. May be needed to increase even more ?
Also I had plexi screen before. Exchanged to proper canvas. No effect. Same growth.

My nitrates are barely detectable . Last measurement finished at 4ppm. Phos also hovers around 0.03. This says to me that even yellow growth is filtering somehow. If My SPS wasnt brownish , I would never bothered about it .

Thanks for sharing.
My situation more or less the same. Can keep pink, green, blue but cannot keep purple, also cannot keep blue milli.
Tried the normal way like slimmer, bio-pellets, cheato, gfo, carbon, etc but still same, no purple and blue milli.
Now I'm running scrubber alone, and even my screen wasn't great, I found quite some benefits already. That's why I wanted to have a full green screen so situation probably even better.
My blue milli is coming back, not full blue yet. Much more pods. I haven't feed my sun coral for 2 months now and still going good. Good growth on corals, more food from the screen?
N always non detectable (salifet) and P ranging from 0 to 0.04 (Hana). Usually above 0 after I clean the screen or move rocks around, and drop back down to 0 after 2 -3 days.

[holidayz]

Looks like screen needs more nutrients... flow, iron, etc.
Thanks SM for the suggestion.
I'll try more flow. But got to find another area in the sump to place the screen. Tried at current location (near return) and it alters too much of the water level.
Dosing iron....will that cause more algae in the display at the same time? My display is not rid of algae yet. I also have to clean the glass every other day.

[SantaMonica]

Iron will help algae that is getting strong light. So as long as your scrubber is getting the strongest light, it should help the most there.

Iron usually helps; rarely does it hurt.

[holidayz]

Iron will help algae that is getting strong light. So as long as your scrubber is getting the strongest light, it should help the most there.

Iron usually helps; rarely does it hurt.

IC.
But I'm not too sure if the scrubber is receiving the "strongest light".
I have a small 65G tank (3ft) and for 6 hours per day, it is lid by 2X120W led and 2X27W led, totaling about 300W.
The tank is then lid by 3X27W for 2 hours before the 2X120W led is on, and 1 hour after the 2X120W is off.
However, the scrubber is lid for 14 hours by 4X9W led, much longer than the tank.
Can/shall I does iron with this kind of lighting?

[SantaMonica]

If you can't increase the flow, try iron. Lastly, reduce hours to 12 or 10.

[holidayz]

If you can't increase the flow, try iron. Lastly, reduce hours to 12 or 10.
Thanks SM. I'll try relocate my scrubber and try more flow first.

[kotlec]

Be very careful with iron. GHA outbreak can happen very rapidly in display.

[holidayz]

Be very careful with iron. GHA outbreak can happen very rapidly in display.

Tks Kotlec for the advise, will keep that in mind.