33x26cm algae scrubber using 10w LED flood

[mrorange26]

Here is my scrubber after 1 week and 1 clean.I have been using 2x10w LED flood lights warm white colour 2700k to 3000k.I was using a eheim compact 1000 pump but after advice from this site i have upgraded to a rio 2100 pump

[Garf]

Mrorange26 - What's the foliage in the foreground of pic 2 ?

[mrorange26]

Mangroves

[kerry]

Your screen is roughly 133". How many cubes of food are you feeding? If its not near 10 cubes a day you will not see any type of green growth at all. If you are feeding only 2-3 cubes you should cut your screen down to about 5x5in or 6x6in and then you will have great growth with the right light source.
The next issue (maybe issue) is the LED's you have will grow algae but I am not sure how effective as I am not sure of anyone testing this spectrum. It will grow algae for sure, though I am not sure how much. Maybe you will be the one to tell us!! Perhaps someone else has info on this LED's growth.
You look to have great flow but your screen might be a little over sized.

[mrorange26]

I feed 5 cubes a day and sometimes a sheet of nori aswell,What screen size shout i have?

[mrorange26]

Should not shout

[Garf]

Half of what you got !!

[mrorange26]

Really even though its a 5x2x2 plus sump.So if i cut this in half it would be alot better.

[Garf]

Yes, that's the current advice.

[mrorange26]

So a 13inch by 10inch sheet should be halfed for my system

[Garf]

You feed the same as me and mine is a 13 x 6 ish

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks for advice i will cut it down.Will let you know how LED floods go.

[kerry]

Yes, make it half as tall and you would be much better this way. Keep us posted on the LED's for sure!!!

[mrorange26]

27712772
As advised by fellow reefers i have reduced size of turf scrubber and put in some 20mm plastic conduit so i can quick release it for cleaning.Here are some pictures

[mrorange26]

Should i stay with the rio 2100 or go back to the eheim compact 1000 now that screen is half the size.

[Garf]

Because you have kept the same width and reduced the height, keep the larger pump on it.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[Floyd R Turbo]

One thing you may want to add is some gaskets around the pipe near the ends of the slot. When the growth gets thick, it can "push" the water the exits the slot toward the edge, and the buildup of the algae mat can cause the water to wick along the edge of the pipe. You want something that will 'catch' this and cause it to drip down into the sump. A simple rubber o-ring would be a minimum, but I've had water creep past those. I would use something with more 'girth' like a large rubber washer with the inner diameter matching the outer diameter of the pipe, and the outer diameter about 1" larger (so it "flares out" 1/2" around the pipe).

Also you could do what I do and take a piece of spa flex hose and glue it to the outside of the pipe. Then additionally hold it in place with a zip-tie as WO #16 or superglue or PVC pipe cement just won't hold it in place very well (they snap off if you bump them)

Like this:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Algae%20Scrubbers/L2%20LED%20Waterfall%20Algae%20Scrubber/35L2SlotPipe.jpg

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks for the advice much appreciated.

[mrorange26]

28072808
2 weeks with the led floods.

[mrorange26]

Should i have more growth than this after 2 weeks

[Garf]

Should i have more growth than this after 2 weeks

Yes, it must be the lights. Here's what mine looked like after 2 weeks;
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1823-howdy-from-the-uk-day-one&p=19139&viewfull=1#post19139

[mrorange26]

Do you think i need more light then

[Garf]

I would try using 2 x 20watt cfl's on one side with good DIY reflectors 2700 or 3000kelvin, at about 3 inches from the screen. Then see if there is a difference. If you get more growth ( which I am sure you will ), do the same on the other side. It may be that this LED is not giving off the right wavelengths for growth. You may notice a difference in a couple of days. Then you may want to progress on the LED side of things.

[mrorange26]

Ok will leave it abit longer see what happens,If not change to different lamp.

[mrorange26]

Now swapped out LED flood as not getting the growth from them.I have put in a oustide 500w floodlight but with a 24w cfl lamp in it and within a day my screen has gone darker.I only have 1 flood on 1 side at the moment to see the difference.And it is definetly better with the cfl 24w lamp

[Garf]

Now swapped out LED flood as not getting the growth from them.I have put in a oustide 500w floodlight but with a 24w cfl lamp in it and within a day my screen has gone darker.I only have 1 flood on 1 side at the moment to see the difference.And it is definetly better with the cfl 24w lamp

And we have " LIFT OFF "

[mrorange26]

Yeah hopefully.I had to try the led see what they were like

[mrorange26]

Will this scrubber get rid of my red slime algae as i have tried everything.

[Garf]

Red slime (cyano) is a massive problem on UK forums at the minute. Seems as though every new system, and some older ones, are having trouble. The main problem with cyano is that it can interchange its demand for growth. Ie if nutrients are limited, it gets it's energy from co2 and light. If light is limited it gets it's energy from nutrients and co2 Etc, etc, etc. There seem to be some magic potions that are very effective however by looking at the product side effects it may be little more than a vodka sugar vinegar mix, which increases the biofilm in the tank ( especially in the sand ), which outcompetes the red slime. Do you clean your sand bed at all ?

[mrorange26]

No I don't but I have a big chalk goby that sifts it and a sand sifting starfish also some snails

[Garf]

This fact of turning over the sand, fits in nicely with my research so far, thanks. Have you got a photo of your sand / cyano?

[mrorange26]

28922893

[Wopadobop]

I see where your going with this... you may be right as i didnt get a cyano outbreak till i dropped a powerhead into my sand. following along to see where this goes.


and WOW that's a lot of purplenightmare bacterium right there .

[mrorange26]

Yeah there isnt alot of it on the sand just all over the rocks.I never had any in any of my tanks since i have been keeping marine for 5 years now.I only came along when i bought a coral from a fellow reefer and there was abit on teh base ever since then its spread,

[Wopadobop]

3 day black out works like a champ.

[mrorange26]

Will Have to try that

[Garf]

Please have a look at this article that Kerry posted earlier, and click on the links at the end for possible solutions;

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

[Garf]

MrOrange26 - I have also discovered this ;

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2095-Dinoflagellates&p=23030&viewfull=1#post23030

[mrorange26]

I started the sugar dosing 2 days ago

[Garf]

Don't want to panic you but I thought sugar and vodka both fuelled cyano. Vinegar would be a safer bet because apparently cyano can't use it. Perhaps in Kalk ( if you use it ).

Edit - Although I have just read that some people are successfully using it.

[Garf]

Sorry if I seem to be treating your case as a bit of a science project but do you use a skimmer and run carbon (GAC). These both remove natural bacterial food, so am just curious. Thanks in advance.

[mrorange26]

I use a deltec apf 600 skimmer.but no carbon.also using rowaphos in a reactor and bio pellets also a ozone generator.turned of bio pellets and ozone yesterday

[Garf]

Never used phos removers personally, but those with experience may suggest removing this also. You'll have to wait and see if someone experienced suggests this ( may help with your scrubber ).

[mrorange26]

I thought phosphates were a big cause of red slime and rowaphos is one of the best removers.Once algae scrubber gets a hold on it i wont need it.

[Garf]

Like I say, I don't know, but would have thought it would retard scrubber growth more.

[mrorange26]

So do you think a should switch off rowaphos reactor

[Garf]

You need to wait for Kerry, floyd or Santa monica (and many others) to advise you. I am sure they will be along shortly.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[kerry]

What does your phosphate and nitrate read?

[mrorange26]

Nitrate 25/50. Phosphate can't remember it was middle on deltec test kit light blue.know exactly tomorrow when I have kit back

[Floyd R Turbo]

If you're running rowaphos and you have P then either your media is used up or you have a lot of p in the rock. Leave it Neil you have no p then throw it out

[mrorange26]

ok thanks

[mrorange26]

2897
3 days growth after changing from 10w led to 24w cfl flood light.

[Garf]

2897
3 days growth after changing from 10w led to 24w cfl flood light.

Looks like you got some green coming.

[mrorange26]

Yeah

[mrorange26]

Just done a test my nitrates are 100 on salifert test and phosphates nearly 0.Need to get the nitrates down they must be fueling the red slime.Hopefully the turf scrubber will start doing its job soon.

[kerry]

You might be limited without much phosphate. Others have experienced this.

[mrorange26]

Its the rowaphos that has bought it down

[kerry]

You will have to wait and see how it goes after the next cleaning.

[mrorange26]

Should i stop the rowaphos or leave it running.

[kerry]

I had the best luck with my scrubber when I shut everything else off, You can turn it off and monitor the phos for a couple week and see how it goes. SM knows more about this then I do. HIs opinion is what I would fallow for sure. Mine would be to turn if off as the scrubber should keep it down without any problems.

[mrorange26]

Ok will turn it off and see what happens.

[Garf]

You have been running this screen under low light conditions for a while now, I would be very interested in regular screen growth pics, now the screen must have become bacterially active, prior to full intensity lighting. Have you managed to get the cfl's nice and close to the screen, correct wattage, photoperiod length etc?

[mrorange26]

290128982899[ATTACH=CONFIG]2900[/ATTACH
Here are the pictures under low light and last one is 3 days with 24w cfl flood light

[mrorange26]

Sorry first one is under cfl lamp

[mrorange26]

I think the cfl`s are close enough and they are 24w and are on the right amount of time.

[Garf]

Are you lighting from a distance with the cfl's? Just usually the lights are in shot !!

[mrorange26]

2902

[Garf]

You need to rig up something else bud. The lights really need to be 2 to 4 inches from the screen. Here's mine;

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/0f464faa.jpg

And both sides if possible.

[mrorange26]

Mine are 6-7inches away

[Garf]

Ok to get it going but you will need to get the lighting closer, soon. The light may be 6 or 7 inch from the top of the screen buts probably 12 inch from the bottom of the screen. In addition to this, a screen that size needs about 120watts of light, either 120 on 1 side or 60 on each side. The size you actually need to run depends on your estimate of how much food you feed ( in 1 cubic cm increments ).

[mrorange26]

3-5 cubes a day so how big should it be

[mrorange26]

Finally had some bracket made today to get my lights closer to the scrubber2978

[mrorange26]

Let the real algae growth begin.

[kerry]

That looks much better, let hope it does not burn the algae. LOL, those things are huge!!

[mrorange26]

They are actually a 500w flood light for outside but with a 24w cfl lamp in them.

[kerry]

That should work just fine then!!

[mrorange26]

Im seeing more growth already and its only been on 1 night with new light layout

[Garf]

Keep us updated.

[mrorange26]

Ok will do

[mrorange26]

Just done my first proper clean.There was quite abut of algae on it.How do people clean there screens

[kotlec]

Fingers, tooth brush, plastic card (debit or credit doesnt really matter)

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks.How are people stopping spraying out from where water comes out of the slit.Once i get abit of algae it sprays abit.

[kerry]

You can drape a piece of thick black trash bag over the slot pipe. Just cut a piece to go the length and hang down past the slot about a 1/2 in or so. The bag will cling to it and will slow the growth of algae there to.

[mrorange26]

Have you got a picture

[kerry]

No, someone had one on here awhile ago showing how they did it.

[Garf]

I use a piece of Perspex bent into a "U" shape that covers the whole length of the slot tube. Then I have taped up the top bit to prevent too much light getting to the slot.

[holdenj_04]

mrorange26 what happened to the led flood light you were using? Just skimmed through the thread and seem you started with them but now run cfl's.

[mrorange26]

I didnt get the growth with that particular colour led flood.When i changed to cfl i had loads more growth even in a few days

[Wopadobop]

Was it loss of intensity being so far away ? seems like those should have done well.

[mrorange26]

It might be that but i mounted the cfl flood same distance first and within a day i seen more growth,Then i moved them close after having brackets made and its growing really well now.

[holdenj_04]

would you want to sell those led floods?

[mrorange26]

Yeah i would be interested in selling them

[mrorange26]

Getting thicker growth now but still a dark brown with green underneath when i clean screen.Do i need to remove my cheato and caulp from chamber that is before scrubber?

[SantaMonica]

Yes.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks for quick reply will remove.

[mrorange26]

Update on scrubber its not gone green yet still a brown colour.Its been about 7-8 weeks but only about 5 weeks on cfl.Do i just keep it going and hope the green algae comes?

[SantaMonica]

Growth goes green almost right away if the wattage is enough. I'd increase wattage and/or hours and/or reflectors.

[mrorange26]

I have 2x24w cfl 1 ever side in the 2 floods, i thought that would be enough they are about 3 inches away from screen.

[Garf]

I have 2x24w cfl 1 ever side in the 2 floods, i thought that would be enough they are about 3 inches away from screen.

Should be enough. Are you running 18 hrs light ? Is it slimy brown growth ? Another pic of the screen would be handy, perhaps a close up of the growth.

[mrorange26]

Will post a picture in abit

[mrorange26]

3145Here are some pictures

[mrorange26]

3146
Just cleaned 1 side heres the picture.I am cleaning every 3-4 days.Do i clean 1 side then wait 3-4 days and clean other side or both at the same time.

[Garf]

Don't look like your lights are close enough gaffa

[mrorange26]

The light is turned up out of the way they are about 3inches away normally

[SantaMonica]

Screen is very big.

[Remed]

Screen is very big.

Does it better ?

[SantaMonica]

If the screen is too big, there will not be enough nutrients to grow thick green.

[mrorange26]

The screen is 24cm by 18cm

[Garf]

Are your mangroves keeping the nutrient level very low. This could further impact the size of screen you should run. Ie your screen won't be getting 5 cubes of food nutrients, maybe just 3 or so. Shouldn't make a difference if your nutrients are high currently though, because the size shouldn't matter until nutrients are low.

[mrorange26]

I took them out as santamonica said to

[Garf]

Sorry, missed that bit !

[mrorange26]

No worrys

[mrorange26]

Update screen still not green but dark brown with odd patch of green,Nitrates havent dropped there about 50/75. phosphates still about mid on a D&D tester.Do i need to make screen smaller?

[SantaMonica]

What is the color of the LED?

[mrorange26]

Im not usng LED anymore im using 2x24w cfl lamps

[SantaMonica]

Well anytime growth is dark, it needs more light until it turns bright rubbery yellow.

[mrorange26]

Ok will add more light.

[mrorange26]

If i went red LED how many watts per side would i need,My screen is 24cm by 18cm

[SantaMonica]

Half the watts of recommended CFL.

[mrorange26]

Sorry to keep asking but for my screen size how many watts cfl do i need.Screen size 9inches by 7inches

[SantaMonica]

Scrubbers are now sized according to feeding. Nutrients "in" (feeding) must equal nutrients "out" (scrubber growth), no matter how many gallons you have. So...

An example screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm) with a total of 12 real watts (not equivalent) of fluorescent light for 18 hours a day. If all 12 watts are on one side, it is a 1-sided screen. If 6 watts are on each side, it is a 2-sided screen, but the total is still 12 watts for 18 hours a day. This screen size and wattage should be able to handle the following amounts of daily feeding:

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or
1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or
10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or
5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or
5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or
0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

High-wattage technique: Double the wattage, and cut the hours in half (to 9 per day). This will get brown screens to grow green much faster. Thus the example above would be 12 watts on each side, for a total of 24 watts, but for only 9 hours per day. If growth starts to turn YELLOW, then increase the flow, or add iron, or reduce the number of hours. And since the bulbs are operating for 9 hours instead of 18, they will last 6 months instead of 3 months.

[mrorange26]

IM abut confused, so for the size if my screen how much cfl light would I need 2 sided

[kerry]

You need 31.5 watts per side of CFL or about 15.75 watts of LED.

[mrorange26]

What do you think to these http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=190519997878&index=17&nav=WATCHING&nid=37379801708

[mrorange26]

What do you think to this led lamp for the scrubber
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190519997878

[Floyd R Turbo]

Maybe. Those are very low power LEDs. Look how many there are for 6.5W of power. So far though, 3W LEDs on star boards way out perform an LED floodlight I have seen.

[mrorange26]

What about these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200622631060?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[rleahaines]

I tried the low powered 14 W led array... didn't work.

the array of less than 1 Watt LED's won't work.. just gives you spread out lighting.

kind of like lighting 100 tiny candles and putting them around a room vs. having a 100 watt bulb in a lamp you use for reading.

[mrorange26]

Can you send me a link to these 3w star baord ones thanks

[SantaMonica]

www.ledgroupbuy.com/deep-red-660nm/

[mrorange26]

Thanks will see if i can find one in the uk

[mrorange26]

What size screen do i need for 5 cubes a day

[Garf]

Your screen is already sized for 5 cubes a day. No need to change it. You are still underpowered on the light though.

[mrorange26]

Just trying to source some lights in the uk at 36w

[Garf]

2 x 20 each side would be easier. You can get them cheap as chips. Clip on lamp holders are also widely available and cheap. You would just need some DIY reflectors.

[mrorange26]

ok looking now.

[mrorange26]

What do you think about this light
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251016345310?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[kotlec]

624nM is not the best spectrum, but I remember somebody using it . Ask possibly they have 660 nM as well.

[mrorange26]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIY-6-x-3W-RED-LED-650nm-660nm-Plant-Glow-Light-w-Driver-12V-24VDC-Input-/390443678363?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae841ba9b
What do you think of this unit 1 either side of my screen.

[kotlec]

Looks good. You will need good heatsink for it.

[mrorange26]

Yeah.I added another lamp to my current floods and i am getting green brown hair algae like a burn think its to close,So like everybody said i needed more light.I just want to use less energy,So might go the LED way.

[mrorange26]

Quick question do i clean boths side at the same time or half 1 side half the other side.

[Garf]

I clean both sides every 11 to 14 days, but have thought about trying half of each side each week. Can't see any harm in trying it. It would provide a more consistent filtering capability.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[mrorange26]

Still waiting for LED to arrive but i have put more wattage cfl on for now.I am now getting alot more growth,some patches which i cannot scrape of with a credit card,Should i leave those patches or get some sort of metal scraper to remove it

[Garf]

Still waiting for LED to arrive but i have put more wattage cfl on for now.I am now getting alot more growth,some patches which i cannot scrape of with a credit card,Should i leave those patches or get some sort of metal scraper to remove it

Sounds like your getting there. Could use a steak knife, just make sure you don't run it through the screen. Before long you will notice a huge improvement in algae growth, just keep going.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[mrorange26]

So should i remove all.

[Garf]

Just slice it off, if you take too much off it just takes a few more days to re-grow.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[SantaMonica]

If you can't see the screen, it needs to come off.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[mrorange26]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIY-6-x-3W-RED-LED-650nm-660nm-Plant-Glow-Light-w-Driver-12V-24VDC-Input-/390443678363?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae841ba9b
these turned up today they were supposed to have heatsinks but havent come with them and they took 21 days to come.So abit annoyed.
The question i am asking is how big a heatsink do i need?

[kotlec]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Aluminium-Heatsink-for-8-3W-Aquarium-Led-Bulb-/160642364566?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&hash=item256707f496

This will work.

[mrorange26]

Ok so you just stick it on

[kotlec]

1.Use special glue like "arctic silver"
2. or bolt it down using bolts.Use heat transfer silicon paste.
3. or use special double sided heat transfer sticky pad (or what ever its name)

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks

[mrorange26]

I have clamped it on but didnt have any thermal paste will it make much difference.

[mrorange26]

How far should i place the LEDs from the screen and do i take off the reflectors

[Ace25]

1. You need either thermal paste (Arctic Silver) or a thermal epoxy (Arctic Alumina, 2 part glue) or thermal pads/stickers between the LED and heatsink for maximum heat transfer. This is not optional.
2. If you use thermal paste, you must use screws to hold the LEDs down, thermal paste (what is used on computers between the CPU and heatsink) does not dry and LEDs will fall off if not secured. With epoxy (what I use) you don't need screws.
3. 3rd option is Bergquist thermal pads (http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/bergquist-thermal-adhesive-20mm-star-6-pack/) (I have used also, but I wouldn't recommend them, too expensive and hard to replace LEDs if they go bad). I got 100 of them on a black friday sale for $4, but I think it is 10x the cost now which is not worth it at all compared to the other much cheaper options.

As for distance, around 3" is what I have found to be ideal on my setup without any optics/reflectors. Optics are only needed if you get 10" or further away from the screen.

[mrorange26]

ok thanks for info

[mrorange26]

34233424
Here a few pictures and of new scrubber enclosure i made,Only a DIY job but seems ok.

[mrorange26]

http://youtu.be/S0j7cUjxnvg
Heres a small video

[SantaMonica]

Nice light blocker

[mrorange26]

What do you mean

[Garf]

Think he means the slot shading device that goes over the slot pipe.

[mrorange26]

Are ok thanks it works well.

[mrorange26]

351935203521
My scrubber after a week roughly on LED

[mrorange26]

Just tested my water and my nitrate is still 50 and phosphate is 0.12 mg/l P or 0.43 mg/l po4 on a deltec test kit.Why isnt it coming down?

[Garf]

The algae is removing approx 7% of its dry weight as nitrogen. Approx 500grammes of algae (dry weight) removes about 70ppm of nitrate in a 450 litre aquarium (this figure varies a bit with the particular type of algae grown). You just need to grow more so that it can impact on the nitrate in your tank.

[mrorange26]

How do i grow more.

[mrorange26]

Do i need a bigger screen?

[Garf]

If I was you, I would back the lights a bit further from the screen, it looks like its too intense in the centre. As it greens up over the next few cleanings gradually get the lights closer to the screen again. Something I have started to do is clean only one side of the screen every 7 days and it seems to populate the screen faster (grows through from the uncleaned side). I used to get a 3 or 4 day lag in growth after cleaning, but not now. Maybe worth a punt.

[mrorange26]

Ok will have a go.

[SantaMonica]

Need to clean all the dark stuff off the screen.

[mrorange26]

I scraped all the algae off with a large razorblade,But how far do i go.

[SantaMonica]

Use a brush if you need to. No black stuff should remain. Green stuff can remain.

[mrorange26]

Ok thanks.

[mrorange26]

Found this scrubber on a site http://www.reefshops.com/algae-turf-scrubbers-ats-filter.html

[Garf]

That's a pretty UAS.

[mrorange26]

What does uaf stand for again

[mrorange26]

Sorry uas

[Garf]

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?17-Upflow-Algae-Scrubbers-(UAS)

[mrorange26]

Didn't think it was a uas as it sits over the tank

[Garf]

Now you come to mention it, it would be upside down, wouldn't it !

[Garf]

Unless the air line extends to the other end, then it would be right.

[mrorange26]

Look at the other pictures it shows it working

[Garf]

Look at the other pictures it shows it working
Buggar, didn't look at them. It's a horizontal. Not gonna get much flow out of that small pipe.

[mrorange26]

No but could add bigger pipe

[Garf]

No but could add bigger pipe

Yep, and make it bigger and use roughed up canvas screen, but by the time you've finished it ll be a totally DIY one.