Ongoing scrubber issues

[WannaRace]

Hi all!

I'm new to the site but I've been lurking as a guest for quite some time! I'm also on other forums that SantaMonica posts on so I'm very familiar with algae scrubbers.

I've had my WAS built for roughly 7 months now (EEK)...the only green growth I see is tiny little specks all over the screen. Eventually, this gets covered by what looks to be red turf algae and lots of brown algae. I scrape off everything, only revealing the green specks, and then this gets covered with red turf and brown all over again.

3 x 4 screen with 11 watt spotlight CFL on each side. I've tried all different types of hours and distances from screen. It is cleaned every 7 days. I've tried going 14 days only to see the growth get darker. Lately I have been feeding more to see what results this brings.

I am gathering day by day pictures to show the progress but this has been going on for several months. I was happy with it because SM says that even brown algae filters, just not as effectively. I'd like to reach the max potential of the scrubber as I absolutely love the benefits I'm seeing right now.

[kerry]

Bump up to the 23 watt bulbs and run it half as long or so. Brown does filter as SM says, mine grows brown-ish when I feed less. How are your nutrient readings? Pics would help to.

[WannaRace]

I was afraid to go to 23 watts thinking that it just about quadruples the recommended amount of light. As far as nutrient levels, what specifically are you asking? Everything I have tested for, aside from phosphates which are unknown, have tested zero. But at the same time I have a cyano problem that may be masking these numbers. I am working on pics, I will post them in a week after a complete growth cycle.

[SantaMonica]

Double wattage, not quadruple.

And if it works, you can cut hours down to 9 per day, which will allow the bulbs to last twice as long.

The stronger light allows the algae to "pull" the nutrients out of the water in a stronger fashion.

[WannaRace]

Well what I meant was a 3 x 4 screen requires a total of 12 watts, 6 per side correct? I have 11 watts per side, 22 watts total. Essentially, with 23 per side, 46 total, I am quadrupling the original amount needed for 18 hours on, right?

[RkyRickstr]

It will work a million times better.. i would start at 9hrs and see.

[kerry]

I had to really over power my light to get a good green growth (88 watts on a 6x6, 44 each side), if two 11 watt bulbs are only making brown algae they you might want to try 23 watt bulbs as this is only double what you have now. You might have to lessen the hours though to around 9 hours.
I only say this because its been seven months with only brown growth, its time to step it up to the next level.

[WannaRace]

Does it matter if it's a par38 or r30 flood light? As long as it is 23 watts? I went with the par38 as the lens is clear in front rather than frosted.

[kerry]

I would have chosen the clear as well.

[WannaRace]

I cleaned the screen off today and installed the 23 watt bulbs. I will keep updating with screen pictures to see if it gets good growth this week. Kind of excited :)

[kerry]

LOL, I remember checking my screen every day a couple/three times a day when I built my first unit.

[WannaRace]

Unfortunately, 7 months in I'm still stuck on checking it morning and night but I guess it's because my mind is playing games...maybe it grew green overnight?! :P

These 23 watt bulbs look ridiculously big next to my 3 x 4 screen

[Garf]

Need tank details , with a screen that small Im guessing a nano. Give as much info as you can.

[WannaRace]

No it's actually a 75 gallon. My reason for such a small screen is the size of pump I had to start with. I only feed 1 cube everyday. I understand the limitation but I just don't want to upgrade the pump at the moment.

[sklywag]

That's SMs size suggestion for any size tank feeding one cuba a day.

[ruddybop]

Unfortunately, 7 months in I'm still stuck on checking it morning and night but I guess it's because my mind is playing games...maybe it grew green overnight?! :P

These 23 watt bulbs look ridiculously big next to my 3 x 4 screen

LOL.... Kinda like me working out tonight and looking in the mirror to see if I looked better.... Hmmm ... I still look the same... :)

[kerry]

Pics of this unit might lend useful.

[WannaRace]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-17.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-16.jpg

[WannaRace]

Day 2 screen after cleaning

[SantaMonica]

Did you get incandescent by mistake? CFL's are not rated as "R" anything, and they aren't available with a clear lens.

If so, that's the problem; not near enough light.

[kerry]

Those do look like regular old school flood lights. You would need the one that is labeled as CFL. Where your old bulbs CFL? If not that may have been the issue for only brown algae.

[WannaRace]

No there is definitely a cfl spiral bulb in each of those. And previously I was using cfl as well, 100% sure of it. I still have the packaging and it's labeled cfl.

What about going to a 6 watt bulb if these don't work out? I get green growth on the screen in the slot, just not outside. Too much light perhaps?

[kerry]

Dark growth is lack of light. I would give these a couple cleanings and see how it goes. If it was to much light the algae would be yellow.

[WannaRace]

Yes I will definitely give this a run for at least a month. Patience is the hardest part.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Just wanted to point out here that the OP is right, he was originally running 11W per side on a 12 sq in screen which is 2x the guideline wattage. So now he's 23W per side or 4x the guideline. Am I the only one that caught this? Also those lights are really close.

[WannaRace]

Should I back them up a little bit? The actual bulb is about 2.5 inches away from the screen.

[kerry]

I noticed that to Floyd. For 7 months he has had only brown algae. If its brown more light could not hurt.
I though the lights were close as well. I kept mine at about 3-4 inches so you might have to back them off. You will see the algae burning.

[WannaRace]

Seems like the dark growth is beginning again..

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-18.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Forgive me if you already posted this but...

How much are you feeding?

Do you have any nuisance algae in the tank?

Tank shot?

[WannaRace]

I am feeding one cube mysis per day along with a 2x2 piece of nori. I only have a few spots of green hair on the back wall and overflow. But I do have a problem with cyano all over the sand. Although this is masked by my diamond goby who does a good job of keeping the sand turned over.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-19.jpg

[Garf]

Nice display

[SantaMonica]

Well, dark growth always means not enough light compared to how many nutrients are in the water.

And a quick fix for the cyano is to point a powerhead across the sand.

[WannaRace]

Well, as with any DIY I will just have to experiment until perfection. I am a firm believer in this system so I am not going to give up. My corals are growing fast and looking much healthier than ever before. My coralline algae is finally flourishing after being stagnant for months. So I know that this is doing something to my system.

Much appreciated SM!

[kerry]

I to grow coralline like its Xenia. I even have to scrape it off the glass a few times a month. Glad to hear its coming around for you, nice tank too!

[WannaRace]

Wahooooo! Greening up in the first ten days! Cleaned the screen by just rubbing my thumbs across it under water. I can't wait to see what the next 7 days brings!

This does beg to question the sizing guidelines, however. Maybe the current requirements work in freshwater but may be different in saltwater? I'm finding that 23 watts is a minimum requirement regardless of screen size.

I should have asked you guys for help 6 months ago! :-)

[crashmushroom]

Nice display. Just wondering your screen is for 1 cube a day and your feeding one cube and day and some nori so your slightly are you slightly over?

[WannaRace]

I feed the nori about 3 times a week so while slightly over, I feel that the huge amount of light on such a small screen compensates.

[crashmushroom]

In that case yeah i would tend to agree maybe someone more advanced will offer their opinion aswell

[WannaRace]

This is my third week, 7 day growth pics:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-20.jpg
Side 1:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-21.jpg
Side 2:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-22.jpg

Any suggestions or does it look good for now?

[SantaMonica]

A bit burned. More flow, or more iron, or 2 hours less.

[WannaRace]

Thanks SM.

My flow was cut off this week. I found a dead snail and it's shell stuck inside the propeller shaft. I cleaned it out and there is much more flow. I'll put pictures up in 7 days and check in again.

[greenmachine]

so is dark growth ALWAYS caused by to little light? or can it be caused by enought light BUT to much food????

[Floyd R Turbo]

They are inter-related. If you take a given amount of light, you can provide enough food for it to grow green, too much food and it will grow darker, too little food and it will turn yellow.

So if you increase your on-average feeding to well beyond the amount of algae that can grow given the amount of light provided, it will likely grow darker.

It's not quite as simple as that, but that's the general idea. Intensity and duration of light in conjunction with feeding will correlate to growth type and rate. "Enough light" is rather subjective because it depends on the type of light, proximity, intensity, duration, etc. Hope you are now thoroughly confused. LOL

[WannaRace]

Well another week has passed and here are the results with increased flow:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-24.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-23.jpg

Looks worse than last week. I am going to try to reduce the intensity of the lights by putting a blank plastic canvas in front of the algae screen and see what happens this week. If that experiment doesn't work out then I'll be reducing lighting time.

[kotlec]

Very similar to what I grow . Interesting what are those bubbles ? I have them as well. Like kind of gas is taped inside algae tissue.

[WannaRace]

I feel like I grow a better green when the flow is not so powerful. Could there be too many nutrients delivered to the screen that's causing the dark growth?

Kotlec- I usually get these bubbles around the 6th day. Not sure what the algae gives off or if it's from the water.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That would make sense. If brown grows as a result of too high of nutrients compared to the amount of light provided, and water flow is providing these nutrients, then it would make sense that too much flow would do this. The solution would then be lower the flow or increase the light intensity. Interesting, never thought about that.

[WannaRace]

I just swapped out my MJ600 for an MJ400 last night so we will see if the slight decrease in flow (nutrients) will result in a better outcome in 7-10 days.

I will keep you all posted.

[wgraham]

I always read about how green or how brown your screens are. The bottom line is how are the parameter of your display tank, not the scrubber. Just my two cents. I thought that any type of algae will filter your water. So I see that this site is really concentrated on how green the screen is but the real true is how is the display doing.
You worry about how much to feed the screen and not the tank. Don't get me wrong I use only a scrubber in my tank and has been from the early 90's.

[Floyd R Turbo]

+1 that is what matters

[WannaRace]

Well I do believe achieving green growth goes hand in hand with the quality of the water and the tank in general :-) That is why we are all here. Obviously, my tank parameters are not acceptable with the growth I am currently getting. If I was happy with my tank I would not be here. I have a brown dusting on the sand and my glass is covered in green dust in just a day.

[wgraham]

I didn't mean to come off if I was attacking you, Your tank look great from the pictures, to me the screen will turn green after it goes threw the brown stage like cycling your tank for the first time. My screen took months before it started to go green but my water was 0 nitrate, 0 phosphate and I just let it go, and all of a sudden it started turning green. Sometimes it has different types of algae on it. I should have started a new tread about the important of green algae to ofter algae. I know that we all want green algae to grow on the screen, but that is not going to be the case ever time.

[Garf]

Have you tried cleaning the screen a lot more than advised, then increasing the length between cleans gradually.These trapped bubbles would indicate a lack of flow through the mat. When flow is restricted the pH of the trapped solution may increase to an alarming rate, doing major harm to the algae. These bubbles are an oxygen by product of photosynthesis in itself not bad, but they should be getting washed out of the mat. Reducing the cleaning period may encourage healthier growth which then doesn't start the cycle of sticky growth, increased pH, death, more horrible growth, etc etc. I would however point out that this remedy has not been tested and is the result of a personal fixation I have with algal mat pH at the moment. Just trying to help.

[Floyd R Turbo]

When I was getting thick 3D growth, I was getting very large bubbles, and in some cases, pockets of air that were inches long. That was when my screen was 20x7 though...never thought of it as a big problem.

[Garf]

When I was getting thick 3D growth, I was getting very large bubbles, and in some cases, pockets of air that were inches long. That was when my screen was 20x7 though...never thought of it as a big problem.

I doubt the problem ( if there is one ) would show itself on a healthy screen capable of good green growth. I would be a bit concerned about what compounds were being released into the water though. Is this the screen with "clamping corals" I read about a while back ? With regard to the screen pics earlier, these do not look "healthy" to me, although the tank attached to the scrubber is doing well it could probably do better, with a healthy screen. Like I said earlier ( sort of ), just putting a few ideas out there for people to mull over.

[WannaRace]

Thanks Garf! You're experience with the bubbles may help. I will try cleaning sooner and then gradually let it go.

As far as livestock and corals everything is doing great. Like I previously said, just looking to get this healthy green algae going in order to relieve myself of cleaning my green glass everyday. Lately there has been a brown dusting on the sand. Cyano used to be a huge problem for me in the past.

[Garf]

Thanks Garf! You're experience with the bubbles may help. I will try cleaning sooner and then gradually let it go.

As far as livestock and corals everything is doing great. Like I previously said, just looking to get this healthy green algae going in order to relieve myself of cleaning my green glass everyday. Lately there has been a brown dusting on the sand. Cyano used to be a huge problem for me in the past.

Lets hope it works like it should. The light penetration to the lower layers must be rediculously low causing a double problem. Keep us posted.

[SantaMonica]

Compounds: Vitamins, carbs, proteins, amino acids

[Garf]

Compounds: Vitamins, carbs, proteins, amino acids

Cyano and diatom food ?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I doubt the problem ( if there is one ) would show itself on a healthy screen capable of good green growth. I would be a bit concerned about what compounds were being released into the water though. Is this the screen with "clamping corals" I read about a while back ? With regard to the screen pics earlier, these do not look "healthy" to me, although the tank attached to the scrubber is doing well it could probably do better, with a healthy screen. Like I said earlier ( sort of ), just putting a few ideas out there for people to mull over.

Yes, you are correct, there were some corals that didn't seem to like the system, namely frogspawn, branching hammers, and ORA green birdsnest. However Green Digis do great, as well as zoas. And anthelia & xenia, unfortunately.

[Garf]

Yes, you are correct, there were some corals that didn't seem to like the system, namely frogspawn, branching hammers, and ORA green birdsnest. However Green Digis do great, as well as zoas. And anthelia & xenia, unfortunately.

Have read somewhere that exsessive algae related DOC can overstimulate bacterial populations on nearby corals. Obviously this would suit some types of corals which eat large quantities of bacteriaplankton or DOC. There is a downside on other corals in that the bacterial layer can become too thick and prevents proper coral respiration. I will find the report if you are interested.

[kerry]

The only two I have found that I cannot keep are Lobo and long tentacle plate coral (which could have been my fault but I tried each twice). My frog spawn seems to pretty good though?? I have a Tan/brown birds nest with green stripes that grows very fast too, I did almost kill it when I changed to LED's in the display but that was no fault of the scrubber.
You would think the bacteria would find a happy medium with DOC as it does with the nitrogen cycle.

[SantaMonica]

You'll find it pretty difficult to get higher-than-reef DOC amounts in a tank, because the bacteria are DOC limited and will keep the DOC at a minimal value. I'd personally like to keep higher DOC-vitamins, DOC-proteins, DOC-aminos, and DOC-carbs in my tank, but the dosing is really expensive. The Salifert Bio Coral amino acid DOC's are $13 for a 250 ml bottle, and I could probably dose that in one day because it is so thin (watery). The Elos amino acid DOC's are $34 for 90 ml, and maybe are more concentrated but I have not tried it. The Seachem Reef Plus amino acid DOC's come in sizes up to 20 liters, but I did not see a price.

Since algae produces amino acid DOC's already (that's why corals learned to eat DOC's in the ocean), I'll probably just rely on the amino acid DOC's that come from the scrubber.

[Garf]

If your concerned about the trapped bubbles, you could turn off the flow for 20 or 30 seconds a day and let it drain out. This would then ensure that fresh water is being circulated throughout the mat.

[WannaRace]

My alkalinity tests at 4.8dkh. I've dosed 1 tsp. of baking soda each evening for 2 weeks with no change in alkalinity. This week, I've upped it to 2 tsp. each evening. This is day 2 and I decided to test since I increased dosage. Alk = 4.8 still! This is a brand new salifert test kit backed up by my API kit. Why won't it budge?

I'm also dosing 10ml B Ionic calcium each morning
No water change since February 2012...
Other params:
Ph 8.0 (4pm test, lights out at 7pm)
Ca 420
Salinity 1.024
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0

I've also got SeaChem Marine buffer. Anyone have any experience? I might try this next week if I get no results with baking powder.

[Garf]

With ALK that low, your screen pH must be going up and down like a yoyo ! Your ALK consumption is a direct link to bicarbonate uptake. I would keep your cleaning very regular to keep growth reduced. This should allow the sodium bicarbonate to increase your KH to reasonable levels, then hopefully you'll get greenage on your screen.

A partial waterchange wouldn't do any harm either.

Edit - 2 teaspoons of bicarbonate is a lot in a low calcifying tank, how are you adding it ?

[WannaRace]

Actually, now that youve made me think about it, I was previously adding .5 teaspoons per evening. Now, I am adding 1 teaspoon.

I mixed 8 teaspoons in 1 gallon of RO water and I'm now dosing 2 cups a night (1/2 cup every 45 minutes)

[WannaRace]

Well each of the past two weeks I've done a 15% water change to see if I could find an equilibrium amongst the calcium and alkalinity. I checked parameters today:

Ph 8.0
Alk 4.9 dKH
Cal 390

So my question is this: if I'm dosing baking soda at night and calcium in the morning, do these just cancel eachother out? I feel helpless because I'm back where I started.

[kerry]

Why not dose Kalk? It had Alk and Ca in it.

[kotlec]

Why not to dose more if what you dosing is not enough ?
15% water change is not gona change things noticeably. Try 50% and then you will see if it helps. Test new water before change as some sorts of salt can surprise you with Cal and Alk figures.

[WannaRace]

Well I've been using the same salt for 5 years but I understand batches and formulas can change.

I've never looked into kalk, perhaps I should. I've always been a fan of the two part solutions. The more calcium I add, the lower alkalinity goes and vice versa. I know they have an effect on eachother but seemed in my case they kept raising and lowering together.

[kerry]

I keep mine pretty solid with kalk and vinegar. Sometimes I can only does baking soda because the Ca. is at 500 oso for a few days I go without kalk and just do soda.

[Garf]

I keep mine pretty solid with kalk and vinegar. Sometimes I can only does baking soda because the Ca. is at 500 oso for a few days I go without kalk and just do soda.

Presumably that's cause your scrubbers eating the ALK. I have used Kalk for 8 years with no other supplements.

[kotlec]

It is somehow related to alien yellow growth. I had big problem with alk levels as well. It was not possible to keep levels with only Kalk . I had to agresively dose ca and soda. Early to say , but since I got green growth , supplementation demand reduced significantly. Need more time to prove that though.

[WannaRace]

Ah after doing a bit of reading I remember what has kept me away from kalk: dripping slowly. Another automated pump I do not want to rely on. Can kalk be dosed safely in top off water? Or manually somehow?

[kerry]

Presumably that's cause your scrubbers eating the ALK. I have used Kalk for 8 years with no other supplements.

Yes, the algae consumes huge amounts bi-carb!!!!!

[Garf]

It is somehow related to alien yellow growth. I had big problem with alk levels as well. It was not possible to keep levels with only Kalk . I had to agresively dose ca and soda. Early to say , but since I got green growth , supplementation demand reduced significantly. Need more time to prove that though.

I still think its a function of pH, but no scientific support for that. Glad your getting green.

[kotlec]

Ph never went far from 8.2 , what I thing is normal.

[kerry]

I drip mine with a bottle, air line adjustment valve, and some hose. You can use it with your top-off or in my case my top-off is 100% kalk unless the Ca. is over 500 in which then I dose the soda and ro/di.

[Garf]

Ph never went far from 8.2 , what I thing is normal.

If you use a pH probe on the effluent ( run off ) directly under your screen you may be surprised. It's the SCREEN pH I'm suggesting may be high, not the display in general.

[kotlec]

Makes sence. But how to fix that ?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I am starting to wonder if the Alk / Bicarb uptake is related to size of screen, or more appropriately, the over-sizing of a screen. I went from a system that ran a 14x7 screen fed 2 cubes/day to one 4x6 and 1) evap rate dropped from 1.3-1.5g/day to <1g/day and I dose the same amount of alk in the top off water. Alk is now in line with Cal uptake, roughly. Also switched to LEDs and am growing only green algae, instead of yellow goo and smelly brown slime.

[Garf]

Are you saying the bigger the screen, the less ALK consumption ? Or the other way around ?

[kerry]

A smaller screen or less algae would take up less alk. I have thought about cutting down the screen in my 40G waterfall to see if there is a difference in alk. I dose a gallon a day and my Ca raises much faster then my alk. I thought I might get some critters that use a lot of Ca or cut down my screen.

[kotlec]

Kerry is that screen nice green ?

[WannaRace]

Just an FYI: tested my Ph run off from the screen and it measures exactly the same as my tank water.

[kotlec]

Thats what I suspected. Flow over screen is too high to allow ph be altered. It could only be long term ph change at best.

[WannaRace]

I dont know what any of these findings mean but I'm getting very impatient :) First thing I am going to do is try to stabilize my parameters before I make big changes

[WannaRace]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-25.jpg

Bottom of 3rd page shows a full tank shot just 2 months ago. Look at that growth!
Almost coming up out of the water! What to do when that happens?

[Garf]

Very nice

[SantaMonica]

It will stop itself at the surface.

[kotlec]

What to do when that happens?

I just pruned it. Now both pieces are growing nicely. Surprisingly broken lower part regrowed like it never been cut just shorter now

[kerry]

Kerry is that screen nice green ?
My screen is a medium green color, its not bright popping green. It gets pretty good growth in two weeks.

[WannaRace]

Well, after no luck with the 23 watt bulbs, I switched back to the 13 watt cfl spotlights per the guideline. This time, however, I stepped up my game once again.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-29.jpg

I made a false bottom in my sump using a clipboard with a hole in it for water to pass through. Then, I covered it in foil. I created this box using to-go food lids that have a foil, mirror-like finish on the inside :) I own a restaurant...

Here are my 10 day results:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-30.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-31.jpg

What do you all think? Should I let it go 4 more days or clean now?

[SantaMonica]

Few more days.

[WannaRace]

And how should I clean this screen? I usually use a butter knife and scrape it down to the screen. Is this a good practice?

[Garf]

I use an old credit card to scrape the screen, but I suppose a butter knife wouldn't do any harm. Try to leave it 14 days between cleanings, the last couple of days the growth is bonkers.

[SantaMonica]

I use a toothbrush for the UAS, and a hacksaw + wire brush for the waterfall.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Plastic pot scraper or acrylic scraper blade

[WannaRace]

Ok good ideas all around. So, just scrape down to the screen and leave the holes filled in? Or should I only be cleaning by rubbing fingers over this still?

[SantaMonica]

Clean most of it off. If the holes are filled with black stuff, clean that out too with a brush.

[kerry]

I leave green in the holes as this creates growth much quicker then removing what you can with a brush and scraper. Be sure to remove all of the black as SM suggests though.

[Floyd R Turbo]

+1 leave holes filled in unless they're filled in with black

[WannaRace]

All the holes under the algae were filled in with green! :-)
In those last 4 days alone, the amount of algae in the screen must have doubled! I scraped off a decent amount of green algae.

I have to say, an enclosed box, at least for me, is absolutely necessary as this allows all the light to be used by the screen. And it shows! I'm very excited for this next week.

[Garf]

Like I said earlier, the last few days are mad. Don't go with the enclosed boxed theory though, sorry. Glad your getting super growth.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Garf, have you ever run an enclosed-box scrubber? The light capturing isn't the reason I would say they have an advantage, it's the 3-D growth advantage. Algae trapped between 2 panes of glass/acrylic grows even faster that last few days.

[Garf]

No Floyd, never tried a fully enclosed box. I have however got the algae to grow to my Perspex sheeting which in one version I have doubles up as a slot shading thingy. I did notice that once it reached the Perspex that the water was forced through the algae, separating the strands more which in turn made it look thicker. Not saying this is not a benefit in itself, but I didn't quite get wannarace's light usage explanation. I also get algae spreading out at the bottom of my screen over the sump surface.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok, now I see why you were saying "don't go with that" to...

Admittedly, when you pull the screen out after it's been "suspended" in it's own flow, it mats down and growth doesn't appear that much thicker than without a 3D box, but when it's running the theory is that since it self-suspends, the light can penetrate to the roots/base better and you can go longer between cleanings and thus get more power from your scrubber as you enter that phase of exponential growth, because the algae won't die off or detach. That's also one of the driving theories behind the UAS, is that it always allows 3D growth and there is never light blocking to the lower layers because the algae is suspended in water. It works very well in a waterfall scrubber when the box is built right.

[WannaRace]

My theory is coming from the simple fact that I've used these same 13 watt cfl spotlights previously with absolutely no green results on the screen. After some playing around with other configurations, I finally came back to the 13 watt cfl spotlights, only difference was I added an enclosed box, and the results are green algae. Could it be that I happened to get through the beginning stages of all that brown/dark algae at the same time? I suppose. I did go about 8 months without a single strand of green algae. But it just seemed to me that without a box, the light was allowed to spread everywhere! I could see it shining out of my sump, through the doors, on the floor, almost lighting up the room the tank is in. But since it's in its own mirror-like box now, all the light reflects around the screen, empowering the 13 watt bulbs even more.

[Garf]

Ah - your talking about efficient use of light, Floyds talking about totally enclosed boxes and I was on about something in between. This site is great !

[WannaRace]

Haha, all in good fun right? :-)

[Garf]

Can't get these damn smiley things to work. Trying to find one with his thumbs up. Ah well, suppose a description of the smiley is good enough.

[WannaRace]

Just to clarify, here is a photo of the CFL bulbs I'm using on my scrubber.

14 W CFL, 2700K, 500 lumens (should this number be higher?) flood light
Notice: Soft white R20 flood...hope that's ok

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-32.jpg

[SantaMonica]

One of those bulbs is good for a 14 square inch screen.

[WannaRace]

This is a 12 day old screen. Notice the dark areas on the screen. This is NOT where flow was cut off. This is actually where there is the MOST flow. It baffles me how this happens. Any ideas?

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-33.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-34.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-35.jpg

[Ace25]

I would say the dark areas are where diatoms have stuck to the algae. At least that is what I have noticed on my tanks. If I clean the display real good and stir a lot of stuff up, the areas on my screen with the most flow seem to capture most of the debris I stirred up. Lately I have been cleaning the display a few hours before I clean the screen so it captures a lot of the gunk, then when I clean the screen in the sink it initially looks like mud coming off the screen, but after a few seconds of rinsing the gunk off it is bright green algae underneath.

[WannaRace]

Yes that is what I experience as well. All of the holes are filled in with green, then after a few days I get dark growth, and finally, green comes out after about 7 days. Hmm.. I seem to clean my glass every other day. I wonder if I should rinse the screen under water every couple days?

[SantaMonica]

The dark is where the most nutrients are being delivered to the algae; the lighter areas are getting less nutrients, and thus almost burning.

More nutrients = dark.

[WannaRace]

So I've switched to a PAR 38 LED fixture, which contains 9x 1w 660nm reds, and 3x 1w 450nm blue

Since I see spotlighting on my screen, I've added a prismatic diffuser just in front of the light, here are the results:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-40.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-39.jpg

Any suggestions so far or does this look ok? I guess I will have to test and readjust positions away from screen as time goes on...

[Ace25]

Now that you have more than adequate lighting, I would suggest upgrading your pump so you can use a larger screen. If you have larger pieces of the diffuser you could use it as a splash shield on both sides of the scrubber and it may allow you to move the lights a little closer (assuming you plan on putting one on the other side as well eventually).

[WannaRace]

I'm very tempted to do that, Ace, but the slot in my pipe is so perfect I don't want to mess it up :P

For practice, I've attempted one on another pipe and boy did I butcher it..

[WannaRace]

Well, bored on my day off, relaxing, thinking...

So, I planned everything very carefully and took my time with the work. I cut and scraped a new 5x5 canvas. I upgraded the pump and put it all together.

I cleaned out the slot pipe on the inside and there was a bunch of green sheets of algae that came out. Hopefully, this will remove some nutrients from the water that was flowing through there the whole time, but more importantly, helps start new growth. I opted out of seeding the screen with the old one just to see if this new start brings new algae.

Here we go! :)

[Garf]

I feel this is a good plan. Good luck

[WannaRace]

Here is my brand new screen at work:

WEEK 1
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-42.jpg

WEEK 2
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-41.jpg

*Screen is only lit on this side. Next week I will add another LED bulb on the other side.

I will be cleaning the screen at the 14 day mark, which is in two more days. So far, looking pretty good.

[WannaRace]

Did my first cleaning today. The screen was full of green hair algae, more than I've ever seen before. Going on another 2 week run and hoping to fill in the entire screen this time around.

[Kerry's Reef]

With ALK that low, your screen pH must be going up and down like a yoyo ! Your ALK consumption is a direct link to bicarbonate uptake. I would keep your cleaning very regular to keep growth reduced. This should allow the sodium bicarbonate to increase your KH to reasonable levels, then hopefully you'll get greenage on your screen.

A partial waterchange wouldn't do any harm either.

Edit - 2 teaspoons of bicarbonate is a lot in a low calcifying tank, how are you adding it ?

First off, I just wanted to say this has been a very interesting and informative thread and I've enjoyed following along. I do have a question regarding Wannaraces fluctuating Alk. I didn't see any tests for Mg in your (Wannarace's) tests...could your wild Alk swings be due to low Mg? Everything I've been reading recently on maintaining water parameters states that the Mg needs to be in the ideal range of 1280-1300 to maintain stable Alk. I ask because my own tanks parameters are very erratic atm and were before I started the scrubber on it. In my case, my cal is sky high due to my cement/oystershell/perlite walls, and, using tap water for top-offs, and, the alk and mag are swinging low in compensation (I think...I'm very much a newb as re; dosing and water chem!). I was going to do a large scale water change, but, I find wc too physically demanding at this time and I have not been able to do them. Instead, I'm trying to get my Mg and Alk in line and then see if the scrubber will bring the Cal down gradually without the water changes. (and if that works it will be a great testimony to the abilities of scrubbers to purify toxic water, lol!)

[WannaRace]

I do not have a test kit for Mg, so no, I have not tested nor dosed Mg.

I am going to check this out next, because in one day that I missed an Alk/Calc dose, my Alk dropped 2 Dkh. So something is amiss.

[Kerry's Reef]

Getting the Mg tests will certainly give you a better idea of what is happening with your tank. Even if the algae is causing the Alk swings, Mg should help stablise it more. Also, your current Alk readings may even be misleading as low Mg may be causing the reading to appear lower than they are. When my tank showed low Mg and low Alk, bringing up just the Mg caused the Alk readings to be higher. (Ok, I'm getting out of my depth here so I'm going to quit before I really stick my foot in it...just wanted to throw this out there as a possible place to research to help you get your water parameters balanced out.) :-D

[kerry]

I have not noticed a swing in Alk whether Mg is 1100 or 1500. Maybe its just my system?? I also dose a Gallon of saturated Kalk (with vinegar) a day to a 40G tank.

[WannaRace]

Just tested my Mag at 1380 so a 2 Dkh loss in alkalinity in one day is a normal swing in my tank I guess?

[SantaMonica]

Alk can drop 2 Dkh in one day if you have very strong scrubber growth and low aeration in the tank. But it can't keep dropping that fast because growth will start self-shading, and Alk will supply less carbon. A UAS may use less Alk, but it's not been tested enough yet.

I've just been adding about 2 ounces of baking soda powder per week to the sump; brings the Alk up about 7 Dkh on my 100 gal. It's a big fluxuation but I'm not focusing on Alk right now.

[Garf]

Just tested my Mag at 1380 so a 2 Dkh loss in alkalinity in one day is a normal swing in my tank I guess?

Eek! Just guessing your pH is quite high (while scrubber lights are on anyway). While SMs not concentrating on ALK, I have been as I'm sure your aware. ALK swing is not good. It can be reduced by throwing a skimmer on, near the screen, or adding bubbles directly to the screen (Venturi). And swing can be eliminated by adding Co2, to reduce screen pH.

[WannaRace]

Well my overflow from the tank drains right to where my dedicated pump for the scrubber is located, thereby creating bubbles being sucked up by the pump onto the screen.

I tested ph run off from the screen a while ago and found it was normal with tank parameters.

I'll bet low aeration is the cause, however, since I have only one powerhead, overflow return, and scrubber breaking water surfaces. Maybe I should get another powerhead..

[Garf]

Try increasing the amount of bubbles. I'm not talking a few, I've got a matt of bubbles at the base of the screen which have flowed over the algae. I'm assuming that your not consuming calcium at 40ppm per day.

[WannaRace]

No definitely not consuming that much calcium.

I would have to add a bubble wand or something to create more bubbles.

[Garf]

No definitely not consuming that much calcium.

I would have to add a bubble wand or something to create more bubbles.

Got a piece of rigid airline wedged into my pump intake, the pressure reduction sucks the air into the pump, in my case anyway.

[WannaRace]

Ah, my pump has a hole specifically for this. I did not know it would create bubbles though. Does the airline just come up out of the water and suck in air?

[Garf]

Maybe. If you get a white foam forming on the sump surface you may need to put a cheap air valve on the end of the airline to tone it down a bit. Or, as in my case, shove a cocktail stick in the end of the pipe, which also gets rid of the sucking noise.

[WannaRace]

I've got an air valve for it. I will try this out at next cleaning.

Quick question: I have dimmable LED bulbs. I can dim just reds, just blues, or both. If I'm getting burning on the screen at 8 hours, is it advisable to dim lighting just a touch or just reduce hours further?

[Garf]

If you put bubbles on the screen like me you may find that this burning effect is amplified. I reduced intensity for a couple of weeks so the growth went green again, then ramped it back to full over a period of a few weeks. Now the screen can take as much light as I can throw at it.

[WannaRace]

Well looks like the idea worked. I set up the pump basically like a skimmer, rigid airline coming out of the intake of the pump. I'm getting very small bubbles like a skimmer across the whole screen. Only downfall is it sounds like boiling water under my tank from the air being pulled in.

So Garf, have you noticed a huge increase in growth or coloration, or both, of the algae after adding the airline?

[Garf]

Have run it this way since before the screen fully matured, almost from the outset (6 or 7 months now). Put a match or cocktail stick in the end of the pipe to reduce the noise (youll still get a load of bubbles). You may notice a bit of the algae on your screen falling off to begin with, but dont panic, thats what happened to mine. Here's a recent screen pic ;
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/a2c0ce5f1e4355c49225feaa6784add2.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/ae5e9e194aef5b8e73f2e575478560c5.jpg

[WannaRace]

Picture is worth a thousand words :)

Thanks Garf!

[kerry]

Looking good Sir!

[WannaRace]

Just wanted to update my thread: added a lot of bubbles to the screen yesterday.

Also, upgraded bulbs to ATI coral plus, among others...

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-45.jpg

[Garf]

That looks great.

[Pulse]

I think that is what people imagine when they say "I wanna start a reef tank!". looks great.

[sklywag]

Good looking tank. Frogspawn or Hammer coral master.

[crashmushroom]

+1 on the skimmer pump ive been doin it the same as garf and stopped my alk depletion completely. Now i just dose kalk.

[WannaRace]

I've built 3 separate scrubbers and during the first two weeks I get the same results: a nice thick green hair algae growing on the screen. After my first cleaning on each of those new screens, I never could repeat the same growth. It just turns dark and thin.

So, why is it that on a fresh new screen the growth is much better but dips after first cleaning?

[SantaMonica]

More nutrients were in the water. Now with less nutrients, there are not enough proteins to build long gha strands.

By sizing smaller, the proteins that are remaining can still build long gha strands because they are not spread out so much.

[WannaRace]

What does it mean when I get better growth from a 1 sided screen than a 2 sided screen? Each time I built the scrubber it started as 1 sided and when I added another light of equal strength on the other side, it stunted growth dramatically. Brown/thin algae.

[SantaMonica]

Screen is too big.

[WannaRace]

Well, I spent the day siphoning out the thick sludge sitting in the bottom of my sump. I figured these were contributing to high nutrients/cyano problems on the sand bed.

I've also suspended rocks in between two baffles off the sump floor so food and detritus keep in the water column for corals/fish. I also put two powerheads on the sump floor to aid in this purpose.

Tonight I built a box around my LED lights and screen so as to capture all light.

Question, on a 5x5 screen, how many LED watts would be needed to meet criteria for 9 hours? And 18 hours?

[SantaMonica]

5 X 5 = 25 watts CFL, or 12 watts LED. However I'd just use 3 X 3w LED stars in a triangle, at 2" distance.

[WannaRace]

Ok so 12 watts LED each side for 9 hours a day. I just want to make sure I've got the proper amount and that's exactly what I'm using right now.

[WannaRace]

Here is a pic of the box I built with aluminum walls on the inside for reflectivity.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-46.jpg

This is inside the box with 1 of 2 12w LED bulbs shining on the screen which sits between two diffusers.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-47.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

At that distance, you do not need the diffusers. The aluminum is doing nothing for you as LEDs are directional. What I would do though is leave the diffusers, take the front of the light fixture off and remove all the optics, and put that light about 1" from the diffusers.

[WannaRace]

At this distance I get a nice round burned mark in the middle of the screen which is what prompted me to add a diffuser in the front.

The box was also more of a light trap so that the room doesn't look like a disco at night. :-)

Hm.. Maybe I will remove the optics. I just hope it's not a daunting task. Is it as easy as unscrewing the face plate and taking out a plastic lense?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Should be - at least that is what I have heard from others that did the same, it apparently is pretty simple.

[kotlec]

When removing optic assure that leds are glued or somehow fixed to heatsink.
I have seen more than once when lenses are used to hold leds pressed to heatsink. Not necessarily to be in your case. Just to be sure.

[WannaRace]

It will be just my luck..

Thanks for the heads up! So removing optics is going to broaden the area that the lights cover, is this correct?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, or more importantly it will cause the light to blend better so that you don't have intense blue hotspots. You could also consider just removing the blue lenses, removing the diffuser, and putting the lamps about 2" away. That would work as well.

[WannaRace]

Thank you guys for the continued support.

I'm going to remove the lenses tonight. Hopefully I don't run into that situation with the heatsinks. After removing, does the purpose of the aluminum box play more of a bigger role?

[WannaRace]

I've removed the optics on my lunch break, I couldn't wait. Luckily, they are glued down to the heatsink so no issues there. I've also removed the light diffusers but I kept the bulbs at the same distance from the screen which is about 4". Do you think if I put them at say 1" there shouldn't be any burning? These things got so much brighter after removing the optics.

[kotlec]

Never know before you try. There are not many who uses these bulbs, so no 100% proved boundaries.

[WannaRace]

Looks like the outsides are getting green just overnight, inside still very dark. I moved the lights to about 2 inches away.

[WannaRace]

I read that adding Saran Wrap around some screens has solved some issues and allowed green growth. I think I am finding this to be the case with my screen as well. What is the reasoning behind this? What is the Saran Wrap doing that allows green growth?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Srusso wrapped his whole screen in saran and it seemed to cause the growth to be like 3D, my thought is that it sort of causes the water to flow through the algae rather then over the top of it.

Another way to do it is to cut the bottom off a ziplock bag, then cut the sides apart for the top inch or so, then slide the bag up the screen and zip the bag shut above the slot pipe.

[WannaRace]

I tried the ziploc bag trick yesterday. It didn't hug the screen as well as the Saran Wrap so I went back to using that. If my eyes aren't playing tricks on me, it appears that growth exploded just overnight, albeit brown algae. I'm going to run with it for the next week and take pics of results. Lights are also diffused at about 2 inches from screen.

[WannaRace]

Here is 5 days, lights @ 9 hours on
LEDs at 2 inches away, diffuser in front + Saran Wrap on screen

Side 1
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-49.jpg

Side 2
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-48.jpg

I've removed the diffusers and cleaned the screen. Give it another 5 days.

[Garf]

I would be tempted to let it go a few days longer and if that works, leave it another few days next time.

[WannaRace]

I was tempted but I'm getting impatient with this thing.

I've still got the bubbles on the screen, Garf. Thinking the algae fell off in the middle due to that?

I've added 2 more hours, making it 11 total on since its dark and I see no burning.

[Garf]

Should have thought its more to do with the roughness of the screen. Perhaps you've took the rough bits off when cleaning the screen. I re roughed mine up after a few months. I also used to get a bit of die off in the high growth areas until I started cleaning one side at a time.

[WannaRace]

Ah, this could be true but it feels fairly rough to me. I don't see any pointy pieces of plastic sticking up but it's definitely not smooth.

[WannaRace]

Another 5 days growth: looks dead?

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-50.jpg

[Garf]

Have you got a slime developing in the centre? I got this when I lowered the pH, is yours ok?

[Garf]

I've built 3 separate scrubbers and during the first two weeks I get the same results: a nice thick green hair algae growing on the screen. After my first cleaning on each of those new screens, I never could repeat the same growth. It just turns dark and thin.

So, why is it that on a fresh new screen the growth is much better but dips after first cleaning?

Is the same pattern repeating?

[SantaMonica]

Can't tell if the growth is on the glass or the screen.

[WannaRace]

Yes, same pattern repeats itself. After first cleaning, I can't get the green growth back.

Growth is growing 3D on the screen due to Saran Wrap.

[WannaRace]

10 day screen. Burnt to nothing in the middle straight to black on the outside. Where is the green???? Usually you see green on the outside where just the right amount of light hits the screen but mine goes straight to black.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-53.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-52.jpg

[Skinnysloth]

The bald spot in the shape of the light indicates the intensity is too much for this screen. I would do one of the following: 1) Decrease the time the light is on, 1-2 hours. As I recall, when you had it lit for 9 hours, you had some dead spots in the middle. After increasing it to 11 hours, you got this huge bald spot. So change back to 9 hours, or maybe even to 8 or 7 hours. 2) If possible, move the light even further away. 3) Increase the flow. 4) Switch back to your cfl lighting, at least with that, you had growth, even if it was darker.

PS
I would trade my green growth for your clean display anytime. :) I get great growth, but so far, minimal impact (algae-wise) in the display. I think I figured out what's causing the excess phosphates/nutrients in my display, but this is your thread, so I'll save my problems for my own thread. :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Do you have a pic of your current setup, with and without flash?

[WannaRace]

I'll snap some pics of scrubber. Display is a typical 75 gallon with single drain into sump with 4 chambers.

Chamber 1 houses heater and powerhead on floor.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-54.jpg

Chamber 2 houses rock suspended off floor plus scrubber on dedicated pump.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-55.jpg

Chamber 3 is empty.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-56.jpg

Chamber 4 houses return plus another powerhead to sweep floor.

Scrubber today,although only change is I moved it 4" back last night after seeing how burnt the screen was.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-57.jpg

[WannaRace]

Two months ago, this was the screen at 14 days old, before very first cleaning while being lit with only 1 of my LED fixtures! How do I get that back! :-)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo-58.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Put a diffuser sheet.

[WannaRace]

I've tried that with less than satisfactory results.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh, yeah, if those lights were 4" closer than you show them, no doubt there was too much intensity. I had the same issue on the e-shine scrubber I made for someone else, the LEDs are all 1W but a very tight array and the intensity was way too much. There was literally a rectangle of zero growth, with growth around the edges, just like you're having. In his instance, he couldn't back off the lights due to the way I made it. In your case, you can back off the lights, so that may very well fix the problem. But it will take time for the center to grow in.

I would consider running one light at a time if you don't get growth back. This is what my customer had to do. he was doing fixture #1 on for 2-3 hours, then both off, then fixture #2 for 2-3 hours, then both off, alternating like that all day. He finally got growth then had a bunch of issues with his tank so results are not really that great on his unit, but it's coming back now.

[WannaRace]

Ah interesting, one side lit at a time. Hadn't thought about that although that means having separate timers for each unit which wouldn't be too much of a hassle I suppose.

I will give this setup another 10-14 days and see where it gets me.

Thanks to all for the replies and suggestions.

[WannaRace]

So a little update after a bunch of tinkering with the scrubber.

I think I've found the solution to my problem. The dedicated pump feeding the scrubber was at the water line in the middle chamber (all water flows through bottom of sump). This could not have been feeding the screen with very much nutrients. So what I did was move the pump over to the first chamber, where the overflow drains into, thereby getting most water from display to go through scrubber before moving down the sump to the return.

This has caused a huge increase in growth compared to previously posted pictures. I will take pics next week, after a 2 week cycle. But I am excited to say the least.

[theomi]

Wahooooo! Greening up in the first ten days! Cleaned the screen by just rubbing my thumbs across it under water. I can't wait to see what the next 7 days brings!

This does beg to question the sizing guidelines, however. Maybe the current requirements work in freshwater but may be different in saltwater? I'm finding that 23 watts is a minimum requirement regardless of screen size.

I should have asked you guys for help 6 months ago! :-)

Was this with 23w bulbs?
I currently have the same problem as you described in your first post and im running 2 12w bulbs on both sides of the screen..

[WannaRace]

Yes, at that time I switched to 23 watt bulbs. But after first cleaning, the growth completely stopped.

Where are you feeding the screen from, specifically?

[theomi]

From my overflow, i should have enough flow per the guidelines.

[WannaRace]

Well the algae was starting to hang from the bottom of the screen and I didn't want to let it fall off into the water. Plus, looks like the bottom layers were dead anyway. But here are my results for one week! The algae appears a little dark with the diffusers in place, so I've removed them for this next two weeks so well see where this goes. Most algae I've ever scraped off the screen.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps21d0605b.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zpsdf566682.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps6a3b08d0.jpg

[Garf]

Great turn around. I can't really see how the position of the pump would make a difference though. Have you altered anything else, or done anything different in your tank ? Have you changed tank water parameters for example ?

[WannaRace]

I've been doing 15% weekly water changes for the past 3 weeks only. Nothing else changed beside pump location. But I'll tell you why I think that made the difference.

The pump intake was less than an inch from the top water line in a secluded chamber in the sump. The screen effluent drained right back to the pump intake, recycling the water that was just stripped of nutrients.

Now, the pump is on the sump floor in the first chamber where the overflow drains to. Thus getting new water to turn over. Then, the pvc drains over the second chamber to dispose of the water in another location.

Makes sense to me that the scrubber is seeing a lot more nutrients and new water.

[WannaRace]

Been busy with Spring here. Doing house work, prepping my race car for this season, etc.

I managed to forget about my screen cleanings for probably about 3 weeks, maybe 4. Here's what I came to find and it was actually pleasantly surprising.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps3b37e194.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JBP4Life/media/photo_zps3b37e194.jpg.html)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps21950617.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JBP4Life/media/photo_zps21950617.jpg.html)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zpsc4a95c14.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JBP4Life/media/photo_zpsc4a95c14.jpg.html)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps0cfdf819.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JBP4Life/media/photo_zps0cfdf819.jpg.html)

[WannaRace]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g282/JBP4Life/photo_zps3c474172.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/JBP4Life/media/photo_zps3c474172.jpg.html)

FTS