Freshwater HOG UAS

[alex leblanc]

I've put a hold on my 5 gallons sw tank, have to little time to start a new tank. After seeing the new design I decide to give it a try in my 40 gallons long Tanganyika cichlids tank. I've used 2 project box (3x6''), old magnet glass cleaner to keep it on the glass. I'm using the same led as Jnad from led dna and it seem to work really find, I've just order 1 3w royal blue with single led driver to give it I took 4 days to see really fine string of green algae on the outside of the screen, after 10 days it start slowly to fill the screen. 2 really bad pic, I will post better one once my 2 years old little tornado go to bed!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7696.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7695.jpg

[kerry]

Very nice, I am alway interested in the FW scrubbers.

[alex leblanc]

The scrubbers bring back my interest for my cichlids, hope it does well and I could stop to do waterchange!

[kerry]

I had a waterfall on my 150G cichlid tank before I made it SW. I had a dual screen scrubber with almost two fulls size screens as I only had to remove about an inch off of both. I was doing two 60G water changes a week to keep the nitrates under 40-60PPM before the scrubber. After I was doing water changes about every 10-14 days so it helped a lot. I have a 125G FW I would like to add a scrubber to but have been busy with other projects these last couple months.
I grew so much algae with the FW that I cleaned it every 4-5 days.

[alex leblanc]

It was overstocked with mbuna? Do you think freshwater scrubber can't take out all they excess nutrient to stop doing WC?

[kerry]

I have not experienced this yet. I had 7 Dempsey's and 3 Oscars. Non of them at the time was over 5-6". I tend to think that the FW screens need to be bigger but I can only go off of my experience which was much different then my SW experiences. I had almost to full screens or so and fed only about half what the screen was rated for and grew algae like crazy but could not totally eliminate water changes. I need to get one running again on my FW and see what I can do with one.

[alex leblanc]

My screen continue to grow nicely, strangely, algae grow alot on the back of the screen! I've just received limewood airstone I've order from ebay, anybody I've try those kind of airstone?

[alex leblanc]

My screen after 17 days, what should I do, clean, let it grow, diffuse??

Front
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7697.jpg


Back
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7698.jpg

[kerry]

give it a rinse and diffuse.

[alex leblanc]

Thanks, I will try to find something around here to diffuse!

[SantaMonica]

Looks like the bubbles might not be hitting it.

[alex leblanc]

I'm now using a limewood airstone, bubble seem to hit the screen everywhere now. Just need to find something to diffuse!

[alex leblanc]

Find something, hope it will do the trick!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7699.jpg

On the led

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7701.jpg

[Othello]

how rough are they? are they self lit or do they require lighting?

[kerry]

He is using it as a diffuser for the LED.

[Othello]

ah okk :)

[alex leblanc]

3 weeks today, never been clean, rinse once, 12 hours on.

Front
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7702.jpg

Back
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7703.jpg

[SantaMonica]

I think more bubbles are needed.

[alex leblanc]

I'm now using a 2 inch limewood stone because the bubble won't hit the screen correctly the first way I do it. Now they have plenty of bubble hitting the screen, by the way I'm using 3.0 psi air pump, enough? I will let it grow a few day again as I've make a couple a change in the last few day (new airstone and diffuser and if it won't grow more I will do a deflector for the bubble or find another airstone.

[alex leblanc]

at least, I have some algae in the center of the screen now!

[SantaMonica]

It's not the PSI, is the flow.

Good that it's growing.

[alex leblanc]

So if I understanding well, maybe I don't have enough hole in the box to get enough flow on the screen. I could easily drill more hole in the bottom of the box!

[SantaMonica]

Airflow, not water flow.

[alex leblanc]

Algae in the display tank start to die, never been that easy to clean the glass. Nitrate have come down a bit without any water change, I need to buy a new test kit for the phosphate. Diffuse led seem to help alot for the grow as the center of the screen continue to fill.

[alex leblanc]

I've laminated a piece of aluminum foil in plastic and put it behind my screen. My yellow slime is now gone, the diffuser seem to work really well I boost to 14 hours on.

[alex leblanc]

A old pic of my tank!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/40gallon.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Let's hope :)

[alex leblanc]

Strange, I've never had algae on my sand and it begin to grow yesterday???

[SantaMonica]

Might be P coming out of the sand.

[alex leblanc]

Maybe, will see with time. 14 hours don't seem to burn algae, trying for 16 hours! I've received my royal blue led, single heatsink and small driver for 1 led. Need to solder everything together, I hope it will help with growth!

[alex leblanc]

What I did wrong, it light up for a few second then stop working?

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7719.jpg

[kerry]

It was probably overdriven, what the ratings on the power supply?

[alex leblanc]

12v 1000 ma!

[kerry]

Yes, thats to much. That supply will drive a 10W LED. You need no more then 2.2 volts and 700ma max for a 3w led.

[alex leblanc]

So I've toast my driver? Here the spec of my driver

Parameters:
Input Voltage AC/DC12V
Output Current: 650±50mA
Can drive 1pcs 3W power LED

[kerry]

I am not sure on the little driver. If it has output it should be working. Test the voltage and amps if your multimeter has this function to determine its condition. I have never used these little drivers as I have always had several to lite at one time and never needed one.

[alex leblanc]

Thanks, I would buy a multimeter to check them out!

[kerry]

I think the one you have is to operate a MR16 LED bulb.

[alex leblanc]

Yes it is, it could not work? Here the link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110799355366?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

[kerry]

I think it might power about 6 of the 3 watt LEDs, maybe someone with more knowledge will give some info.

[alex leblanc]

Maybe I should have buy this driver, any Led expert could help?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Constant-Current-Power-Driver-1pcs-3W-LED-1x3W-driver-AC-85V-265V-/120836251123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2266ddf3

[kerry]

That might do it but the voltage looks a bit high to me.

[alex leblanc]

Oh man! I think I gonna dump my cheap chinese led and redo my light fixture with led from rapidLed!

[kerry]

These folks have a small kit to: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3x3-W-LED-Kit-constant-current-driver-connection-wire-Input-100-240-VAC-/110892570222?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d1b6566e

[alex leblanc]

Yeah thanks, I've seen this but they won't ship to Canada!

[kerry]

Have you asked them? They are always pretty happy to accommodate my requests.

[alex leblanc]

No, I've don't asked them! I'm pretty new with ebay. I'm gonna try, the price is good!

[alex leblanc]

3 weeks, maybe my screen is not rough enough and I look like it burning. Should I reduce the hours, clean and rough my screen again!

Front

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7721.jpg

Back

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7722.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Is something eating it?

[alex leblanc]

The screen is in a close box, I have a neritina snail but don't have access to the screen. I have no vegetarian fish. I don't know if a could have freshwater pod that could eat it. Should I clean it to see if it will grow back, or wait another week!

[SantaMonica]

3 weeks is enough, so clean it.

And scrape up the screen more.

[alex leblanc]

I was reading the recommended airflow post, my screen is 2.75 inch, so if I understand well, I need 0.90 lpm for my screen, my pump is rated at 3lpm. Could I get too much flow that the algae can't get a good hold on the screen. I would clean it tonight and rerough my screen a bit. Sorry for my poor english!

[walleyefisher]

I have not experienced this yet. I had 7 Dempsey's and 3 Oscars. Non of them at the time was over 5-6". I tend to think that the FW screens need to be bigger but I can only go off of my experience which was much different then my SW experiences. I had almost to full screens or so and fed only about half what the screen was rated for and grew algae like crazy but could not totally eliminate water changes. I need to get one running again on my FW and see what I can do with one.

So based off of Kerry's comments are we to assume that freshwater scrubbers have an entirely different sizing requirement? 2 full sized screens and still couldn't mitigate the nitrates?? This is somewhat discouraging.

[alex leblanc]

my nitrate are still high but my screen don't grow a lot of algae. I've already see some difference in the display tank except that I have algae now growing on my sand. Once I figured out how to to get my screen fill out with green I would try to remove my canister filter and only keep my hob only with a sponge that I will clean weekly. I've not make a single waterchange once I've start my scrubber and my nitrate are at 40ppm. normaly they go up to 80ppm in a week.

[SantaMonica]

Same size for FW.

Can't have too many bubbles. Screen needs to be rough.

[alex leblanc]

Thanks, I clean it tonigh and rough it again with a hole saw!

[kerry]

So based off of Kerry's comments are we to assume that freshwater scrubbers have an entirely different sizing requirement? 2 full sized screens and still couldn't mitigate the nitrates?? This is somewhat discouraging.
Please dont assume anything, I was posting my experience with my tank. There are different factors in all tanks. I was able to cut down my 40% water changes from twice a week to about once or twice a month. It was a huge difference. I was also weening off my canister filter as well (packed with bio media) and we all know these can be nitrate factories and this may have been my problem. I still need to revisit my FW scrubber and start a new one and others should continue forward with theirs and try removing filters with bio media (slowly as not to crash the tank) or an other idea or approach that seems to fit your situation. SM is also right on the FW screen needing to be SUPER rough.

[alex leblanc]

My canister filter is full of bio media too, 3 drawers. I will remove 1 drawer at the time and monitor! But I will give it a few more week!

[kerry]

A drawer or 1/2 of one per week would be fine to. The bacteria will find any surface to colonize on.

[walleyefisher]

Kerry - Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if using a biowheel as supplemental instead of bioballs or canister filters would be a better option?

[alex leblanc]

I have already remove the biomedia from my aquaclear 500 without ill effect!

[RkyRickstr]

The bacteria is already colonized in every surface in the tank. As long has there is o2 it will grow everywhere. Removing the filters wont give you.much of a spike, specially with the scrubber.

[kerry]

Its hard to day, my next FW scrubber will be on a tank that has a bio wheel.

[alex leblanc]

I've just receive a respond from Satisled for my driver, they simply tell me to hook it on any 12v ac/dc! It's time for a multimeter I think!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7719.jpg

[alex leblanc]

I've buy a multimeter and I'm noob. I've try to find some information over the net but I'm not sure exactly what I have to do. When I check the voltage that came from my 12v acdc adapter, and from the driver, they are exactly the same, 25v. I've solder another driver on my acdc adapter without a led and the same thing happen, I'm lost!!!

[kerry]

12V output is to much more a 3W LED. It needs to about 2.5V and about .700ma.

[kotlec]

You cant measure LED driver output without a led or other appropriate load connected to it.
12v acdc adapter has to have close to 12V on output otherwise it is toast. You can measure that with multimeter.

[alex leblanc]

Ok thanks, I will buy a new acdc adapter!

[alex leblanc]

I've still not add the blue led but I up the hours to 18 on 6 off and algae seem to respond well. I've add a small piece of plastic to direct the bubble more on the screen but its to soon to tell if its help or not. Oh yeah, I remove my canister I was using for biological filtration without any spike for the moment. Nitrate are still high at 40 ppm but I've not made any waterchange for 2 months.

[alex leblanc]

It's now 2 weeks I clean my screen and rough it again, so I've start with nearly a new screen.

Front
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7738.jpg

Back
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7739.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Can you put a diffuser in front of the LED? Or move the LED back?

[kerry]

It is diffused, maybe a second diffuser.

[alex leblanc]

I could glue another small piece of diffuser on the back of my main diffuser or maybe I would try the ink dot in front of the led from Floyd!!! I let it grow for a few day or I clean???

[kerry]

Either of those might work, you could use some ink correction white out that would be easy to remove as well.

[alex leblanc]

I have a piece of 3 foot by 4 of diffuser, so I have enough to try a few way!

[SantaMonica]

Make sure to always use 120 degree LEDs too, instead of 60 degree. You want the LEDs with the big round dome.

[alex leblanc]

I have no lens on my leds!

[alex leblanc]

I've finally find some time to solder my royal blue led and add it to the box. I was thinking that I may used a second timer to control the royal blue led as I've now 3 x 3w 660 nm led and 1 x 3w 455 nm led on a 2,75x4 inch screen or I should used the same number of hours on both red and blue. I've also double the diffuser to eliminate the burn spot.

If I managed to make it work good, I think I would redo all the lightning part as I'm now able to solder and Its way easier than I was thinking even if I've cute a part of my thumb a few years ago. I was thinking to buy 2 660 nm philips led and one 455 nm philips led or I should go 420 nm and driving them with the 350mh moonlight driver from rapidled. I will give me a better looking setup and better coverage of the screen. Any thought about it?

[kerry]

LOL, I have the same problem with time. You should see an improvement with that.

[alex leblanc]

After 5 days with the royal blue led and 3 weeks of grow I decided to clean my screen. The algae are a lot harder to scrap, don't know if its the blue led or normal with time. Hole starts to fill up and I've take care not to remove it when cleaning. I've still a burn spot in center of the 3 red led but I still hope it will fill with time, I've order from satisled 2 3w red led and 1 royal blue with 1 driver to have a cleaner setup and better coverage without burn stop.

I've drop the wooden airstone as it was clogging way to fast and came back with the airline thing but instead of slit one, I've made hole with a drill, it was easier ( at least for me) to control the distribution of air on the screen. The bubble are now really bigger.

[ruddybop]

Just upon observation I noticed that your screen looks like it has bigger holes than mine. I have almost 7 square holes per inch. This would also give more surface area for the algae to grow on.

My question is :: Do we have a guideline for the size of screen and distance between square holes for the algae to grow efficiently. It might be somewhere on this forum, but I couldn't find it.

3170

[alex leblanc]

I remember having seen Floyd suggesting to used number 7 screen that what I'm using. My screen is small, 2.75 inch by 4 inch.

[kerry]

I have used both screens and the 7 holes per inch worked better for me as well.

[alex leblanc]

measured my nitrate today, 15ppm, first time they get so low.

[kerry]

Thats encouraging.

[ruddybop]

Thats encouraging.

+2 ....

[alex leblanc]

One week since the last clean up. Burn spot now i've disappear and algae fill all the hole and look different than the algae it grow before I change back to perforated airline, looks a bit like cladophora aegagropila. I gonna give a few more day before cleaning to see if the algae grow thicker.

[alex leblanc]

Retest nitrate today, they are still around 15ppm maybe a bit lower and algae still growing...

[alex leblanc]

2 weeks since last cleaning, best grow so fare, left side have grow long enough so air bubble stay stuck in algae and seem to help grow, Should I clean or try a few more day.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/screen.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Nice... I'd clean it.

[ruddybop]

2 weeks since last cleaning, best grow so fare, left side have grow long enough so air bubble stay stuck in algae and seem to help grow, Should I clean or try a few more day.

It's beautiful.... :)

[kerry]

Very nice, how are the nitrates? Clean for sure.

[alex leblanc]

they stay at around 15ppm but without waterchange. I feed a mixed of golden pearl, spiruline and NLS 2 times per days maybe I should weight it...

[kerry]

I would love to keep my FW under 40PPM!!! Its working for you. I hope to have one built in the near future.

[alex leblanc]

I've got some time to clean my screen today after 17 days. Here the harvest

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7770.jpg

And finish my new lightning too. I've install the heatsink on the outside of the box to keep the led cooler and to avoid to make more hole to keep heat away and getting red light all over the place.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7759.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7765.jpg

[kerry]

That looks nice and clean, good build.

[alex leblanc]

Nearly 4 days since I looks at my screen, its so difficult to resist...

[kerry]

LOL, BEEN THERE!! I know what you mean. I think you will be impressed with the LED's, I was.

[alex leblanc]

wow, tested my nitrate tonigh here a pic i'm speechless. The pic looks different but its under 5ppm.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/_MG_7772_zps7536104f.jpg

[Garf]

Is that good ?

[kerry]

Awesome for FW!!!!

[alex leblanc]

Is that good ?

Normaly my nitrate will raise to more then 50 ppm in one week, so for me its really good, enough to stop doing WC. I still need to weight the food I give as it way under the guideline but my fish are happy and breeding like never before.

[RkyRickstr]

Im happy to hear this, my p saulosi group is ready and will be home in two weeks..

How bout a fts?!!

[alex leblanc]

Here a really old pic, I will post a new one soon!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/40gallon.jpg

[ruddybop]

Here a really old pic, I will post a new one soon!

Please do... It would be nice to see all the fish in it..... :)

[alex leblanc]

I'm off for the week, will find some time to post new pic. Test nitrate today, still around 5ppm after one week. I've up my feeding a bit as I have fry all over the place. I've weight all the food I've give this weeks, a mix of nls grow, freeze-dried cyclop-eeze and golden pearl, total of the week 0.1 gram. My screen is 2.75x4 inches.

[alex leblanc]

I've no new pic of my tank, I've forgot my camera at my hotel and they don't find it, sure they are somebody happy somewhere, what frustrated me the most is all the pic of my son I lost...and for better news, retest my nitrate tonight and they are nearly undetectable on my seachem test...

[RkyRickstr]

Sorry to hear than man. Some housekeeping lady is happy, suucks that there is no honesty any more.

[ruddybop]

I've no new pic of my tank, I've forgot my camera at my hotel and they don't find it, sure they are somebody happy somewhere, what frustrated me the most is all the pic of my son I lost...and for better news, retest my nitrate tonight and they are nearly undetectable on my seachem test...

Crap..... That sucks you lost the pics of your son....... Sry to hear that...

Another note great to see your nitrates are almost undetectable...

Alex how many fish do you have in your tank and what size are they?

[alex leblanc]

I have a couple julidochromis ornatus, 2 and half inch for one 3 for the under, maybe 20 fry and young between few milimeter and 2 inch and a couple of lamprologus similis with around 12 fry, male around 2 inches and female 1 inches. I've buy a hagen phosphate test and its not easy to read, my phosphate are between 1 and 2.5 and my nitrate around 2 ppm.

[alex leblanc]

Harvest after 15 days, anybody in freshwater I've try to let grow for more then 14 days. Best harvest of all, may try more days next time. Nitrate are still around 5ppm and phosphate at 1 ppm

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090305.jpg


http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090306.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Let's hear it for growth-through-glass :)

[walleyefisher]

Alex - great stuff. I usually get about twice that amount in 7 days with a waterfall type scrubber but my nitrates are hanging around 20-30ppm. I totally think I could go 14 days or even longer without cleaning. This algae sticks like glue, however I dont know what the effectiveness of the algae is once you have a thick growth. Is it the growth itself that uses more nutrients or would having a 7+ day growth consume more nutrients daily????

[SantaMonica]

It's the growth that consumes nutrients. However, the big bottleneck is self-shading, especially with dark growth... causes the lower layers to not only stop growing, but die and let go.

[alex leblanc]

my seachem test don't detect any nitrate now but my phosphate are at 2 ppm.

[SantaMonica]

Needs stronger scrubbing then.

[alex leblanc]

I'm alrealdy at 18/6 hours could I increase hour or I need more light or bigger screen.

[SantaMonica]

You could try 20 hours. Also could paint the inside of the light box white.

Any anything to direct more light to the back side of the screen would help.

[alex leblanc]

I've already a reflector , I will try 2 jours more ans see!

[Floyd R Turbo]

You are likely nitrate limited. P will continue to rise. Try testing Potassium, and dosing that if it is below 400ppm. Get the Salifert Potassium test kit and the Brightwell Potassion for dosing, if you can.

[Garf]

Thought potassium in freshwater was a tiny amount, that's what put me off the idea of potassium deficiency. Gotta go and look it up now!

[Garf]

Thought so, potassium in freshwater is only maintained at 20ppm.

[Floyd R Turbo]

oops I missed the title "Freshwater..." duh.

[SantaMonica]

I say the scrubber is just weak.

[alex leblanc]

Clean my screen today and 20 hours seem to works well, no burn spot and my phosphate lower a bit. I think I would need to clean my filter more often and removed the poo built up and maybe I could get better phos reading.

[alex leblanc]

Anybody have Melanoides tuberculata with a uas in freshwater. I was thinking they could help as a clean up crew but I'm scare they would eat the algae on my screen!!!

[alex leblanc]

last cleaning pic

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090932_zpsdd4a5391.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090934_zps14e42088.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090935_zpseff33c80.jpg

back of the screen
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090936_zps662c91c7.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090937_zps5e7e3aef.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090938_zps9b3192d5.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p17/Alfalex/P1090939_zps80baddee.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Couldn't be greener :)

[alex leblanc]

phos lower again this week, 20 hours on 4 off seem to do it. Could changing my satisled led for better one could really make a difference to make my scrubber stronger?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I run my Satis LEDs 22h on 2h off on my UAS test box. yes I do feel that Satis LEDs suck all around. There is zero bin control, so you get whatever is available. "grab bag" is what I call it. I can tell by testing the Vdrop across each that they are no where near electrically matched, compared to the Philips ones I get from Steve's LEDs which are dead on exact same Vdrop for every single one I have tested. I don't have a meter that tests for radiant flux so as far as intensity goes, I can't tell ya for sure. But IMO they seem weaker.

[alex leblanc]

Seem my sand and rock have finish to leach phospate in water. My nitrate test come clear and my phosphate test is lightly color. The grow on my screen reduce alot but I keep feeding the same amount of food, all the parameter are ok so I don't bother...

[SantaMonica]

:)