scrubber seems to be falling behind...

[joelespinoza]

Hey guys my scrubber seems to be slowly falling behind and I am starting to get a bit overwhelmed by brown hair algae in the display. I also used to have a tiny clump of cheato in my sump and it has grown to about the size of a cantaloupe and is VERY healthy looking.

my scrubber on my 55 gallon is 2 panels each consisting of 1 royal blue and 4 660 red leds driven at 700 ma they about 1.5" away from the screen on each side and run for about 14 hours a day. I feed slightly more then 1 cube a day so figure 1.5. Any thoughts why my waterfall style screen has seemed to slow down?

[SantaMonica]

Pics

[Floyd R Turbo]

Also screen size.

[joelespinoza]

Sorry I sent first post from my phone last night and I dont have a forum app, so its kinda rough.

Here is the pictures of my setup. I just put the CFL and reflectors back on last night. I had both LED panels pointing at a single screen and the other screen I had completely cleaned off and unlit. However like that it seemed to be falling further and further behind, so I figured I would try one LED panel and 1 CFL bulb per screen again. The screens are full sized 10.5" x 13" maybe? Whatever the normal sized sheets are that are about letter sized.

The one I had lit still grew algae, and I cleaned it off about once a week, however it just couldnt keep up with 1.5 cubes a day. Which seems odd since I know it has plenty of flow and with 10 LEDs it should have been fine.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_092326Medium.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_092412Medium.jpg

This cheato used to be smaller then a golfball:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095641Medium.jpg

This wierd brown hair algae is starting to crop up all over, especially in the sump but a couple places in the tank too:
(Saltwater Endlers are watching you)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095651Medium.jpg

-

Its pratically a forrest up there:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095605Medium.jpg

Apparently nobody told this tang that they are supposed to eat algae, he wont even touch Nori, all he likes are frozen mysis shrimp. This is a good shot also of all the bubble algae that is taking over:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095635Medium.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095614Medium.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120724_095609Medium.jpg

[SantaMonica]

If that setup is how I think, it won't be doing much filtering. If you can, remove all the pieces and lay it out on the floor for pics, and give the specs...

[joelespinoza]

If that setup is how I think, it won't be doing much filtering. If you can, remove all the pieces and lay it out on the floor for pics, and give the specs...

I cant really easily remove it.... its the entire back of my tank.

Ok there are 2 full sized screen, ~13" long x ~10.5" wide. Total of 800gph flow and 21" of screen so ~38 GPH/inch. However one screen was completely cleaned off and unlit. So pretend it did not exist. It was just basically a sump return.

I have 2 LED fixtures, to give you an idea of size they use this heatsink:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-Aluminium-Heatsink-for-8-3W-Aquarium-Led-Bulb-/160847064026?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25733b6bda

They each contain 4 3w 660nm reds and 1 royal blue. They are driven at 700ma (so each fixture = 10 watts, 20 watts total for LEDs).

I had both LED fixtures centered on each side of one screen (so it is lit on both sides) about 1"-1.5" away from the screen. So while the screen itself is quite large, the light is very concentrated in narrow area running the length of the screen.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok I remember yours now.

1) 10.5x13 = 136.5 x 2 = 273 sq in, so 273/12=22.75 cubes/day. You're way, way oversized.
2) your LEDs are way, way too close, and so are your CFLs. I realize with your space there's not much you can do about that. But you're likely burning the bejeezus out of the algae.

That being said, you should easily be able to filter 1.5 cubes/day even if done mostly wrong.

Minimum you need diffusers on the LEDs. Personally I would build another LED fixture, put that on the wall, and move the screen to center between the 2 fixtures, and diffuse both LED panels.

What I would do is resize the screen per the feeding guidelines, maybe 2x what you're feeding, max. That means a 36 sq in screen, and if you can, re-do that single LED panel so that you have 5 on each side and ditch the CFLs. Make the screen 6x6 and put the LEDs in the center of each quadrant (each 3x3 section) with the 5th in the middle. Maybe push the 4 corner LEDs a little more to the corner, maybe 1/2" diagonally away from the center LED. Then add the diffuser.

This will save you space and give you room to grow (feeding wise, up to 3 cubes/day), and give you a much more powerful scrubber. You will be concentrating the intensity to a smaller area of more intense light (of the appropriate bandwith), which will mean the preferred growth area will shift dramatically from the DT to the scrubber.

[Floyd R Turbo]

With that 9x3 heat sink I would make the LEDs into more of a rectangle instead of a square and make the screen a little larger than the heat sink, still 36 sq in or maybe 30 (plus the smooth area for inserting into the tube, plus smooth below that for drop into the sump, but the effective area (roughed up) should be 30-36 sq in) and put the blue in the middle and diffuse it.

Also mount the LEDs on the tank and wall and center the screen between them. Looks like you would then have about 3" from fixture to screen on each side I would think.

[joelespinoza]

Yea.... I have been putting off completely rebuilding my scrubber, but I think it is going to have to happen. With the way my plumbing is I cant make the screens smaller without completely redoing all my plumbing, and I kind of like huge boost in surface area I get with the giant screens used as my return.

I guess I will leave it as it is for now, and build a smaller scrubber box up high so it drains directly into the tank and run it off my return pump. Then I will remove the lights and replace the screens with new, unruffed up screens.

I am considering a designing a HOB style UAS.... Do the UAS seem to be doing better with screens/lighting of the same size over waterfall style ones?

Anyway we'll see how it goes.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'm going to run one of each of the same screen size and LEDs on the same tank and find out. Probably not going to be "scientific" but should be interesting at least.

[joelespinoza]

Also mount the LEDs on the tank and wall and center the screen between them. Looks like you would then have about 3" from fixture to screen on each side I would think.

What is the optimum distance from the LEDs to the screen in your experience? Is 3 inches about right or should I use more/less?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't know that there is necessarily an optimal distance, because I think it depends on the tightness of the array as well. If you downsize and put them at least 2 inches away and diffuse, should be fine. at anything over 4 inches I don't think you would need to diffuse, but you start losing a little intensity.

[joelespinoza]

What do you think of a HOB design like this? I think I could easily T off my return line, with a valve or 2 to adjust.

I would design it so there are slots on the inside that the screen slides down into the slot in the pipe. That way you can remove the lid and slide the screen straight out the top. This was designed to use heatsinks 8.46" x 6", the same size you use on your build.

Sorry about my drawing, I suck at CAD/Sketchup

This is the side, the darker ink lines are the edges of the actual side, the lighter pencil is kinda the cutaway of what is going on inside, the drawing is in half scale on a normal 8.5" piece of paper:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Hangonscrubberside.jpg

I could make it so the entire center section is not full of water, what do you think the optimal amount of water (in inches) is on each side of the screen?

This is the back:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Hangonscrubberback.jpg

[joelespinoza]

I think I could slim down the front to back distance by about 3" total, so there is 1.5" of water between the light and the screen on each side. It occurs to me also that if I used a powerhead that injected bubbled to drive this it could be an upflow type type.

[joelespinoza]

So maybe something more like this:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/HOBScrubberMedium.jpg

[joelespinoza]

Well 6 days ago I scrubbed every bit of algae out of the display tank that I could get, then I put the flouresent lights back on the algae screens, I also dropped the display lighting from 66 LEDs running at around 500mA, to 12 LEDs total (6 Royal Blue XT-E Crees and 6 True violets) running at ~500mA. I also dialed the scrubber light cycle down to about to about 12 hours per day.

After 6 days this is the result:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120730_160951Medium.jpg

I am going to have to clean off the screen tomorrow, but thats a ton of algae for a screen that size.

[tomservo]

Yeah +1 on a smaller screen. You had too much screen and not enough LEDs; I have 8 660 and 1 445 on a ~6x6 screen on my 12 nano. I had the LEDs too close initially as well but the fringes still got enough growth to keep things under control - I have since changed it up so there is white diffuser over the LEDs, as I can't change the spacing either. I also changed the timing to 4/8/4/8 (on/off/on/off) . Seems to have worked if you check out my last update - http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1966-Tomservo-s-UAS-test&p=23645&viewfull=1#post23645 The growth is noodly, rather a bit like chaeto. The mass on the plate there is like a gelatinous blob. I rescued a mysis shrimp and some pods (gently rinsed them from the mass) before I dumped it down the disposal. I have been feeding pretty heavily, last night the clowns got a chunk of brine shrimp about 20mm triangle x 7mm thick.. at least 2 cubes worth. The only hair algae in the tank came on a rock and it's decorative until the crabs and snails hog it all down. Got an emerald to do for the bubble algae.

[joelespinoza]

Yea, I realize the screen size is too large, the whole build is not optimal, thats why I am designing a new HOB setup. However, this is not supposed to use the entire screen to grow algae, I designed this to be my entire tank overflow, and when I built this tank I couldnt find anything on what flow you should have through your sump, so I got a 820GPH pump, which is what my budget allowed for. That is also why I have been procrastinating building a new scrubber, to do so I basically have to replumb my entire tank, and keep in mind this was designed and built long before the "new" guidelines.

Even so, yesterday I cleaned off one of the screens for the first time since I started this thread (I should have done it earlier I have been busy), and I removed what was easily a softball sized clump of algae. It was also interesting to note that the LEDs are DEFINATELY burning the algae, I will try to post pics later of the perfect holes burned in the algae right over the LEDs, and the algae grew much better on the 26w fluorescent side then on the 15w LED side.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would completely expect you to get burn spots in front of the LEDs with them in that close to the screen. Also the light from the LEDs does not have a chance to spread before hitting the screen so I would also expect you would get less overall growth, because it's too intense in front of them, and not intense enough everywhere else.

[joelespinoza]

I would completely expect you to get burn spots in front of the LEDs with them in that close to the screen. Also the light from the LEDs does not have a chance to spread before hitting the screen so I would also expect you would get less overall growth, because it's too intense in front of them, and not intense enough everywhere else.

Yea, it wasnt really a suprise that they were burning the screen, it was more of a confirmation. Here is a good shot of how bad they are burning it:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20120805_205204.jpg