Algae Scrubber Keeps Crashing My Tank

[jaws]

The last two times I've cleaned my algae scrubber, it crashes my tank. I always have to perform an immediate water change afterwards. I've lost an Achilles, three Bartlett anthias, and a sharknose goby already. I don't get it. It's growing algae like crazy. When I remove it, a small amount of the water thats absorbed into the algae gets squeezed out but I wouldn't think that's enough to cause this much damage. I always remove it to clean it but the contamination happens before I replace the screen. It's definitely happening when I take it offline and remove the screen. I modified a large aquafuge in order to build a waterfall scrubber so that water from my sump gets pumped up to the top of the aquafuge and falls down the screen and empties out the bottom back into my sump. But because it's under my tank in the cabinet, I had to make it tall enough so that the bottom of the scrubber is above the top of my sump so it empties back into the sump. As a result the top of scrubber is only an inch and a half from the ceiling of my stand. When I pull the screen out I have to bend it over the top of the scrubber and it tends to squeeze a bit against the acrylic of the aquafuge and ends up straining a bit of the water that's in the algae back into the sump. Just water though, no algae and barely any water at all. That's why I'm so surprised at how quickly it affects the breathing and overall health of my fish. Within 5 minutes they start swimming into rocks and each other and their coloration looks horrible. Definitely looks like ammonia spiking to me. I just can't understand why its happening and how it's happening so quickly. I do have a large bioload but my parameters have been WAY better since adding the algae scrubber and they should be more reliable than this. It's a mature scrubber too so it's nice thick green hair algae that's growing.

Can somebody help?

[Ace25]

My ATS on my 60G is similar to how you describe yours.. mine is stuffed in my sump and actually touches the inside/top of the stand. I have to fold the screen to take it out to clean. It is the only filtration on this tank and I have never had any problems like you describe (and I have much more delicate fish than some of the ones you lost), which leads me to think something else is going on that is causing your problems. It may have something to do with the ATS in some way (materials used?) but I can't see how simply cleaning the algae off the screen would cause the issues you describe.

Questions: Is it a reef tank or fish only? Do you use any other types of filtration? Sounds like at a minimum, a bag of carbon during the day you clean the screen would help out if it is something chemical related getting released. If it is ammonia (which is highly unlikely, but possible) then a simple ammonia test a few times during the day of cleaning and the following day should tell you if it is indeed ammonia related.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8171/8027842695_60c22fc09b_z.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

I can't say I've ever heard of that before. Then again, I am very careful not to squeeze the algae water out of the screen and into the tank, and always have been.

I would not think it is ammonia, as this would not get stored and squeezed out of the algae.

Can you post some pictures of your build? There may be a way to modify things so you don't have this problem.

[tebo]

When do I clean the algae off the screen and shake entirely within the display to release some copepods and algae to fish, never had any problem with that

So I think the problem is on the other side

regards

[SantaMonica]

Without seeing pics or knowing more, I'd say the screen went too long and/or grew too dark and the roots were rotting with ammonia.

[rygh]

My guess : You are very low on oxygen in the tank to begin with, and when you remove the scrubber,
you stop all flow of O2 into the tank. (both from scrubber, and possibly skimmer)
Plus, various oils from your hands and dead algae may cause a surface boundary layer.

Suggest : Put a power head in the tank, pointed toward surface a bit, and make sure top is totally open,
so there are a LOT of ripples on the tank. Then clean ATS.

[SantaMonica]

But that would cause the fish to go to the surface to breath.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah I don't think you can drastically lower the O2 content by just removing the screen. I know people who have had power outages lasting hours and done nothing and everything was fine.

[RkyRickstr]

I lasted a two days without power by moving the water with my hand every few hours, at least it was summer.

If sm is right that would make sence, when you clean the screen the roots are too weak to do anything, so they die and you start from scratch.

I put my hand in the tank all the time, the other day with hot sauce in my hand (greenbay game), and that doesnt crash my tank. I dont think that would do it.

U got pics of the scrubber?

[straydog]

May not be a solution but might help to only clean half the screen per cleaning. That way you always have a growth of algie on the screen.

[rygh]

Yeah O2 might not make sense.
The thing is - other than a gas, little else makes sense for a 5 minute reaction.

But thinking more, those symptoms really match carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide poisoning.
Could be high tank CO2 level + CO / CO2 released from decaying algae as well when disturbed.

Easy enough to test for ammonia. A spike that can kill in 5 minutes would certainly show up on a basic test kit.

Test PH levels before/after, and in an aerated glass. If that changes between samples, you may have an O2/CO2 issue.

[kerry]

That is bizarre!!! After I remove my screens I dunk them all into my displays and vigorously shake them in the water to remove any pods and tiny starfish. Is your algae rooted to the screen black???

[Floyd R Turbo]

Without seeing pics or knowing more, I'd say the screen went too long and/or grew too dark and the roots were rotting with ammonia.

If the screen were rotting with ammonia, why would this be released all of the sudden like this? I would think that if the screen were rotting and releasing ammonia, it would be doing so continually as the water passed through it. Perhaps there would be a pocket of water near the screen that is just sort of "stuck" there until the water flow is shut off? I guess this is another reason for regular screen cleaning.

[SantaMonica]

I could be all soaked up into dead material, underneath thick black growth which sort of seals it.

When I let mine go too long, the center of the screen will have a pocket like this.

[jaws]

Hey guys. Sorry for the late reply. I know you have to clean your scrubber once a week but how long would you suggest it takes a freshly cleaned mature scrubber to become toxic in your tank by not cleaning it?

[SantaMonica]

Have never heard of a screen becoming toxic before.

[Ace25]

Can't say I have ever had a screen become toxic.. and I have left my screen on for 30 days. At most it gets covered in cyano after week 3, but when I clean it the algae under the cyano is still alive and strong.

[jaws]

That's the only thing I can think of is maybe i'm leaving the algae on there too long to grow and it's dying somehow, causing it to release ammonia into the water. Anyone else leave their scrubber for weeks at a time without cleaning it?

[straydog]

Could it be its the only filtration in system and it's being cleaned to thoroughly

[Floyd R Turbo]

It doesn't crash after cleaning, it happens when he pulls the screen out to clean it. There is something more instantaneous going on apparently.

[srusso]

Hey guys. Sorry for the late reply. I know you have to clean your scrubber once a week but how long would you suggest it takes a freshly cleaned mature scrubber to become toxic in your tank by not cleaning it?

Lets not ask how long before... lets ask how long are you waiting to clean it?

I also have never herd of a screen becoming toxic.

Can you please post a picture of your setup?

Pictures of the screen and/or harvest would be helpful.
Also if it happens everytime, it maybe helpful for the community if you video'd it.
Setup a phone or camera and video you removing the screen and then the fish behaviour.
Can you test the water? What are your readings?

How old is your tank?

[SantaMonica]

Up-close pics of the system and plumbing might help. Maybe something is getting into the pipes.

[jaws]

I'll get some pics once it's started up again. I'm kind of afraid to get it going again. There can't be anything getting into the piping. The water feeding the scrubber is T'd off the return pump and it's running all the time. If something was getting into the piping when I shut the scrubber off then it would be getting into it while it's running too. I wasn't really wondering if the screen becomes toxic. I'm wondering how long it takes for the algae under the top layer of algae to start dying from not cleaning the screen often enough. I usually try to clean it around the same time I perform a water change which is around every 2 or 2.5 weeks. I also have a Bubble King Supermarine 250 skimmer, run bio pellets and carbon and dose prodibio reef digest. My parameters used to be a bit high but now they're all good since adding the scrubber. The tank is almost 2 years old now.

[srusso]

I'll get some pics once it's started up again. I'm kind of afraid to get it going again. There can't be anything getting into the piping. The water feeding the scrubber is T'd off the return pump and it's running all the time. If something was getting into the piping when I shut the scrubber off then it would be getting into it while it's running too. I wasn't really wondering if the screen becomes toxic. I'm wondering how long it takes for the algae under the top layer of algae to start dying from not cleaning the screen often enough. I usually try to clean it around the same time I perform a water change which is around every 2 or 2.5 weeks. I also have a Bubble King Supermarine 250 skimmer, run bio pellets and carbon and dose prodibio reef digest. My parameters used to be a bit high but now they're all good since adding the scrubber. The tank is almost 2 years old now.

Its hard to say exactly when algae starts dying, b/c everyone uses different lights, size screens and not to mention everyones water chemersty is different. When it comes to the algae (this is complete conjecture) I believe anything longer then 7-10 days and you start losing filtering compacity.

What if its something in the process of removing the algae scrubber.... In my tank, when I shutdown the return pump and turn it back on again after my scrubber cleanings... Random stuff gets dislogged from inside the lockline or return PVC. (like the buildup of gunk in the pipes.) It never seems to be an issue for my tank but maybe you have something similar, that is toxic buildup of some kind. When the flow changes in the return line, from shutting down the scrubber maybe bad things are getting dislogged or released into the water?

[sklywag]

I last cleaned my scrubber on the 12th of this month. Been very busy. Longest I've ever let it go. I have a good feeling when I clean it tomorrow. Nothing will die.

[sklywag]

Well. It's been 20 plus minutes and no death yet. Don't think there will be.

Jaws. My ATO only maintains a water level after the initial top off by me in the sump area. When my tank is low on water and my ATO just adds water as it is at its lowest point I like it to be. And I remove my scrubber screen. The water level in the display drops due to more flow because of the resrtiction from screen is gone. There might be something that when you remove the scrubber or shut down the pump to it, one of your dosers kicks in or some other additive and over doses the tank quite possibly due to the same effect of water levels maybe. I don't use dosers so I don't know how they work. Timers or levels?

[kotlec]

Timers

[walleyefisher]

Best guess for me would be that the ATS is removing large amounts of something. Nitrate, Nitrites, Ammonia, etc.. When you remove the screen for cleaning it allows this to spike. I dont think it has anything to do with the ATS itself. You have something going on in your tank and the ATS is masking the real problem.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well. It's been 20 plus minutes and no death yet. Don't think there will be.

Jaws. My ATO only maintains a water level after the initial top off by me in the sump area. When my tank is low on water and my ATO just adds water as it is at its lowest point I like it to be. And I remove my scrubber screen. The water level in the display drops due to more flow because of the resrtiction from screen is gone. There might be something that when you remove the scrubber or shut down the pump to it, one of your dosers kicks in or some other additive and over doses the tank quite possibly due to the same effect of water levels maybe. I don't use dosers so I don't know how they work. Timers or levels?

I would think this would only be the case if your dosers were tied to the level in your tank and not your sump, which is not usual. An ATO would not kick on when your return pump got shut off, of if the water level in your DT dropped (which would raise the sump level). A doser should not be tied to water levels, it should be on a timer.


Timers

I think he was asking jaws? But as I said before, they should be on timers.


Best guess for me would be that the ATS is removing large amounts of something. Nitrate, Nitrites, Ammonia, etc.. When you remove the screen for cleaning it allows this to spike. I dont think it has anything to do with the ATS itself. You have something going on in your tank and the ATS is masking the real problem.

His livestock are being affected immediately when he removes the screen, as if something is getting squeezed out of the screen when he removes it (re-read the firs few posts). It's not a build-up of nutrient issue, which would be more along the lines of what you are suggesting, which is I think an extremely high bio-load that the screen is barely keeping up with.

[kotlec]

I think he was asking jaws? But as I said before, they should be on timers.




No - he asked how they work :
I don't use dosers so I don't know how they work. Timers or levels?

As I use them , I was so kind to explain :D

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh, my mistake. it's too early on Monday to think straight.

[kotlec]

No probs at all.
Monday syndrome is very well known by me as well.

[sklywag]

I got it.
And all my live stock is still alive.

This kid has other problems than his scrubber.