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Pny
10-22-2012, 05:50 AM
(My first post after some time lurking this forum)...

Is it possible to use an algae scrubber as complementary filtration in a large system (1000 liter / 275 US Gallons) already using bio pellets and skimmer for filtration? How low nutrient levels (N&P) can such system go without starving the algae in the algae scrubber to death? Does the algae scrubber remove anything else than N & P that the aquarium would benefit from?

RkyRickstr
10-22-2012, 06:50 AM
I dont see why not, the biopellets just provide a carbon source for the bacteria. I do tge same thing with vinegar and the scrubber works just fine.

SantaMonica
10-22-2012, 08:17 AM
The pellets will really slow down the algae growth; may stop it completely.

Ace25
10-22-2012, 08:21 AM
Bio-pellets are the C (carbon) part of the food source for Bacteria. The other 2 parts are Nitrate and Phosphate (same thing algae scrubbers consume). If you use Bio-Pellets it will eat the N/P faster than the algae can eat it, in turn starving the algae and worst case, causing all the algae to die off and potentially foul the water until bacteria can consume the die off. Just not a good combination as they both do the same things, so one is going to suffer from the other, and bacteria normally out competes algae.

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 11:02 AM
So how can you guys explain paul b the guy with the 400gallon sunlit tank that got totm on reef keeping. He is running bio pellets , skimmer and a scrubber succesfully. Im also running bio pellets, skimmer and pellets the only thing I notice is that I might have clean my scrubber every 6 days cause on the 7th day I start to get dye off but my scrubber still grows algae like crazy prob more algae that most scrubbers in this forum. Paul b is using his scrubber to control phosphates only. I started my pellets on a low dosage now im gonna go full amount and just rely on the scrubber to remove acces nutrients that the pellets cant do plus will alow me to feed what ever I want.

Floyd R Turbo
01-06-2013, 01:45 PM
I think you are confusing PaulB who has the horzontal scrubber at the top/back of this tank with Amfyn (or however you spell it) who has the sunlit tank in South Africa

Ace25
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
On something like a 400G display tank, that would require a HUGE algae scrubber to solely handle the filtration, which for most people would be impractical. So for large tanks like that you can use 2 methods like bio-pellets and a smaller algae scrubber because neither is going to be able to handle the filtration by itself, but together it could work if both are sized properly. On a 100G or smaller tank, trying to dial in the screen size with the small amount of bio-pellets that would be required would be a big headache IMO and make the water unstable for quite a while until you find the proper balance. Can it work, sure, but on a smaller tank an algae scrubber can handle the vast majority if filtration without needing to resort to carbon dosing. Most of the time I am not a fan of carbon dosing because it just wreaks havoc on a system until you get it dialed in, and it can take 6 months to a year just trying to dial in bio-pellets on a small tank, put an algae scrubber in the mix while doing that and that is just too much instability for my taste.

Floyd R Turbo
01-06-2013, 02:32 PM
Why do biopellets take so long to get 'dialed in'? I know you've explained this before, perhaps you can just reference your post...

Garf
01-06-2013, 02:50 PM
Bio pellets are just a carbon source, aren't they? Surely the sugars released from the algae do the same job, as long as your skimming. Be gentle with me, not researched bio pellets.

Ace25
01-06-2013, 03:36 PM
In short, in most cases it causes massive bacterial blooms/die offs until the population can find a balance. A bad yo-yo effect that wreaks havoc on corals. The theory used to be to 'buffer' that effect by using a giant skimmer to remove the bacteria die off at the out take of the pellet reactor, but science has shown it doesn't work that way.

In the last 6 months there have been a couple 'usable' bio-pellet reactors come on the market. The only usable reactor IMO is a recirculating one where you can control the input/output to a trickle while still having lots of flow in the reactor, that way you can control the bacteria populations in the tank via a dial, otherwise it is a constant game/hassle adjusting flow, knocking reactors around to break apart pellets, etc.

Floyd R Turbo
01-06-2013, 03:43 PM
I heard about that one - which brand was that?

Also IIRC iiluisii you told me that you were using the BP from Werner Marine? Was that it? The one that is going for FDA approval?

Ace25
01-06-2013, 03:50 PM
Reef Dynamics was the first one to make a recirculating bio-pellet reactor. I have seen a few more come out in the last few months, but I credit Reef Dynamics for the concept and design. You probably saw it the same place I did, on LA Fishguys page. ;)

http://www.reefdynamics.com/category-s/257.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sLhmI8vtnfw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zMx4HOsG3Rc

Floyd R Turbo
01-06-2013, 04:01 PM
I knew it was an LA Fishguys episode...I recall talking to Jim about it a while back. he's still waiting to get one of these 'donated' to him so he can do an episode on them. I think he hand-makes these one at a time. Sounds familiar...

Garf
01-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Bit baffled about the "stripping the nutrients" comment. Surely just lob a load of food in !

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 06:23 PM
Reef Dynamics was the first one to make a recirculating bio-pellet reactor. I have seen a few more come out in the last few months, but I credit Reef Dynamics for the concept and design. You probably saw it the same place I did, on LA Fishguys page. ;)

http://www.reefdynamics.com/category-s/257.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sLhmI8vtnfw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zMx4HOsG3Rc
Ace im sorry but u are wrong about bio pellets. One the reciculating reactors were made for bio pellets like npx an all those other pellets other than ecobak or np pearls by dr tims because they suffer clumping which ecobak and np pearls dont. Recirculating reactors are bad one cause you are suppose to gentle flow pellets for them to function right.
Here is jon warner the owner of ecobak eplaining it on an other forum.


I understand the logic in a recirculating reactor but it's probably not necessary for ecoBAK and I will explain why.

Every major company to offer a "bio pellet" in the USA obtains that biopolymer pellet from the same source (ecoBAK comes from a different source working closely and exclusively with Warner Marine). One of the characteristics of these pellets is the stickiness one encounters when running these pellets. So people end up running higher flow rates to keep the pellets from clumping together. So the concept of a recirc reactor allows you to separately control both the aggressiveness of the tumble and the water flow through the reactor. This gives more or less contact time inside the reactor.

But an aggressive tumble is bad news for biopellet users and may explain the plethora of bad reviews from users of competitive pellets. High flow rates and aggressive tumbling strips biomass off the surface of the pellet (remember a pellet is BOTH a food source AND a media to grow bacteria). When the pellet surface is stripped a new layer of bacteria grows on the surface until it again is stripped. You will end up with biomass in the system, possibly on the rocks or substrate where it may lead to Cyanobacteria or algae issues. In addition, this aggressive strip and regrow cycle causes cloudy water and frequently a rapid drop in PO4 or NO3 which may damage or stress corals or fish.

ecoBAK has a different physical composition and a different crystalline structure at the microscopic level.

In your post you say "...the concentration coming out would be greater then using a regular flow reactor with a small feed pump." I just wanted to clarify a common misconception. Other than some small amount of biomass, NOTHING comes out of a reactor other than water. ecoBAK does NOT "dissolve" to provide Carbon for a system. The biomass that does come out of the reactor will either be skimmed, consumed or settle out in a system.

ecoBAK has little problem with clumping (other than the first few days) and works just great in any reactor supporting a GENTLE tumble including the RD recirc reactor.




If you PM me the name of the store I can help the store keep ecoBAK in stock.




That's great news but I can't say I'm surprised. The first adopters of ecoBAK were service people. They noticed that when they used ecoBAK on customers systems the aquariums just "looked better" and the client noticed the cleaner system. So happy clients began asking their service personnel to bring out more fish and coral or to go ahead and do that LED lighting switch they'd been talking about. And in the retail store environment cleaner systems means healthier animals and customers more willing to buy livestock. And a retail store that uses this kind of technology to maintain a healthy system is truly cutting edge and an asset to the community.

I wince when I hear people give hobbyists advice and "caution" them against using biopellets. When used properly (and ecoBAK has a lot of margin for error) it's nearly an auto-pilot way of keeping the aquarium clean and healthy. I've been keeping marine aquariums for 35 years and I believe that ecoBAk is on the top 5 list of products to make marine aquariums successful for the average hobbyist.




I can't speak specifically for the RD pellets... I can say they're not made like ecoBAK but other than that I prefer not to directly talk about a specific company's product. It's easy to change brands of pellets to ecoBAK. Just remove the old pellets and replace with ecoBAK, maybe 1/3 to 1/4 the total recommended amount with another 1/3 to 1/4 added weekly.

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 06:31 PM
Also were do you get this yo yo effect from. The onlything that happends is you might get a bacterial imbalance and get cyano to show up but all u have to do is use some special blend or waste away to balance it out.I believe bio pellets are the future in the reef aquarium business. Also I would like so see a member here with a scrubber only sps reef mature aquarium because I have not seen it. I believe also for a succesfull sps reef multiple filtrations are required ie skimmer, scrubber and pellets. Also ACE some of the bio film that the pellets release its good for corlas as its food for them

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 06:38 PM
On something like a 400G display tank, that would require a HUGE algae scrubber to solely handle the filtration, which for most people would be impractical. So for large tanks like that you can use 2 methods like bio-pellets and a smaller algae scrubber because neither is going to be able to handle the filtration by itself, but together it could work if both are sized properly. On a 100G or smaller tank, trying to dial in the screen size with the small amount of bio-pellets that would be required would be a big headache IMO and make the water unstable for quite a while until you find the proper balance. Can it work, sure, but on a smaller tank an algae scrubber can handle the vast majority if filtration without needing to resort to carbon dosing. Most of the time I am not a fan of carbon dosing because it just wreaks havoc on a system until you get it dialed in, and it can take 6 months to a year just trying to dial in bio-pellets on a small tank, put an algae scrubber in the mix while doing that and that is just too much instability for my taste.
Also dont see what are you saying here it should be the same on a small or big tank actually it will be more beneficial on a small tank do to less water volume and usually people overstock their tanks so more nutrients. Big tank or small dose not matter that why they have different quantities to use and thats why there's guide line for the scrubber unless the guidelines are just a joke.

Garf
01-06-2013, 06:40 PM
Multiple filtrations are what I've plumped for, makes sense to me.

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 06:40 PM
I think you are confusing PaulB who has the horzontal scrubber at the top/back of this tank with Amfyn (or however you spell it) who has the sunlit tank in South Africa
Floyd im talking about paul brune

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php

Ace25
01-06-2013, 06:44 PM
I have used EcoBak many times.. they clump like any other pellet, they have caused my tank to crash twice, once using them in a TFL reactor, once in a BRS reactor. I am talking from experience. Like the video stated, running pellets in a reactor 'full bore' is bad and he explains why, and what causes the 'yo-yo' effect.

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 06:52 PM
I have used EcoBak many times.. they clump like any other pellet, they have caused my tank to crash twice, once using them in a TFL reactor, once in a BRS reactor. I am talking from experience. Like the video stated, running pellets in a reactor 'full bore' is bad and he explains why, and what causes the 'yo-yo' effect.
How long did you run your pellets and maybe your tumble was too much all the people I know are running them and have not seen a crash and I been running them and yet seen a negative effect im about to start using the pearls since they are marine certified and are also bio degradable. Also maybe your skimmer was too small one rule is to run a bigger skimmer im running a 300gallon skimmer on a 185.

Garf
01-06-2013, 06:55 PM
I have used EcoBak many times.. they clump like any other pellet, they have caused my tank to crash twice, once using them in a TFL reactor, once in a BRS reactor. I am talking from experience. Like the video stated, running pellets in a reactor 'full bore' is bad and he explains why, and what causes the 'yo-yo' effect.

Have you not figured a way round this problem Ace, there must be one surely. Like I said earlier, I have zero experience but perhaps not running at full bore, would be a starting point. Saw a post you made earlier that you were running without a skimmer cup (may be in a different time frame). Don't think I'm dissin scrubbers, wouldn't be without mine now, but there are other methods which may compliment scrubbers.

Ace25
01-06-2013, 07:09 PM
Big skimmers are a myth when it comes to bio-pellets. Any skimmer will do and they only work for a short time. AdvancedAquarist proved that.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature


It is likely a significant observation that there is a floor in aquarium water bacteria populations that skimming will not breach. Perhaps in both water sources, the SJ 55 naïve tank water and the KSF modified (or not) tank water, there appears to be two functionally distinct populations of bacteria; one that is susceptible to bubble-based removal, and one that is not. What is this functional difference, as far as the skimmer is concerned? An earlier publication describes the limitations of bubble-based mechanisms in scrubbing TOC from aquarium water (Feldman, 2009). The argument forwarded in that case may very well apply here as well. It is plausible that the requirement for hydrophobic patches on particles (i.e., bacteria, TOC molecules or clusters; refer to Bacterial Surface Charge and Protein Skimming, Section 1.2 above) that must be met for successful bubble-based extraction may only apply to some but not all of the aquarium water column bacteria (approximately 28-39%, by our studies). Thus, there may be some discrimination by the skimmer based upon bacteria surface properties. In addition, some but not all bacteria form multicellular clumps (flocs) that may be susceptible to foam-based extraction based upon simple buoyancy and not bubble-surface chemistry; once again, this physical process constitutes a basis for selecting between different bacteria types. So, the bottom line appears to be that some but not all bacteria can be removed by protein skimming.

Which leads to the question: Is the bacteria that is skimmable good or bad? If good, wouldn't you want to leave it in the tank? Is the bacteria left behind good or bad?

First time I ran pellets for 6 months.. crash happened at 2 months but I 'stuck with it' to see if the tank would recover, by month 6 I had a lovely tank of white sticks. Second time I went 30 days and had several corals die. In the 'modded' TLF reactor with a maxijet 1200 the pellets would clog in under 24 hours, in the BRS reactor they would clog in about 3 days run off my return pump. First attempt I used 1/2 recommended dosage, second attempt I used 1/4 recommended dosage. Both times I used pellets caused my ATS screen to turn to mush also. I came to the same conclusion as the guy in the video, without a way to control the bacteria populations, it isn't a viable method, and up until the recent recirc reactors you had to push a ton of flow through them just to keep them suspended.

I am not against carbon dosing in general, I actually had great success when I dosed vodka (and I believe it was because I had control over the bacteria populations because it was dependent on my daily liquid carbon dosing), I just don't think the current method that most people use today for using pellets is correct.

Ya Garf, the solution is in the video above. ;) Use one of those and just have the flow so slow it is just a steady drip in the sump and it may work good with an ATS. The key is to be able to test the water and adjust the flow so you do not 'bottom out' the N/P in the tank. If you can control that (which you couldn't with old bio-pellet reactors), you will be good.

Garf
01-06-2013, 07:31 PM
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/b8434e600ec9bf65f7d12631fc8ecfab.jpg

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 07:48 PM
Big skimmers are a myth when it comes to bio-pellets. Any skimmer will do and they only work for a short time. AdvancedAquarist proved that.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature



Which leads to the question: Is the bacteria that is skimmable good or bad? If good, wouldn't you want to leave it in the tank? Is the bacteria left behind good or bad?

First time I ran pellets for 6 months.. crash happened at 2 months but I 'stuck with it' to see if the tank would recover, by month 6 I had a lovely tank of white sticks. Second time I went 30 days and had several corals die. In the 'modded' TLF reactor with a maxijet 1200 the pellets would clog in under 24 hours, in the BRS reactor they would clog in about 3 days run off my return pump. First attempt I used 1/2 recommended dosage, second attempt I used 1/4 recommended dosage. Both times I used pellets caused my ATS screen to turn to mush also. I came to the same conclusion as the guy in the video, without a way to control the bacteria populations, it isn't a viable method, and up until the recent recirc reactors you had to push a ton of flow through them just to keep them suspended.

I am not against carbon dosing in general, I actually had great success when I dosed vodka (and I believe it was because I had control over the bacteria populations because it was dependent on my daily liquid carbon dosing), I just don't think the current method that most people use today for using pellets is correct.

Ya Garf, the solution is in the video above. ;) Use one of those and just have the flow so slow it is just a steady drip in the sump and it may work good with an ATS. The key is to be able to test the water and adjust the flow so you do not 'bottom out' the N/P in the tank. If you can control that (which you couldn't with old bio-pellet reactors), you will be good.

I been runnin 400 ml and have not had any problems yet. And for the skimmer I can tell you that when I was running a smaller skimmer I use to see bio film floating around the tank all the time ever since I upgrade to the bigger skimmer I have not seen them. I think you just gave up on it like the guys that have given up on the scrubber. I will show the progress on my tank and will post here instead of my other threadhi

Floyd R Turbo
01-06-2013, 08:01 PM
Floyd im talking about paul brune

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php

That's not PaulB, that's Reefkeeper2. PaulB is another RC user that has a reef tank that is like 40 years old and his has a trough scrubber along the back of the tank. Just for clarification. I do not think he has ever won TOTM

iiluisii
01-06-2013, 08:12 PM
That's not PaulB, that's Reefkeeper2. PaulB is another RC user that has a reef tank that is like 40 years old and his has a trough scrubber along the back of the tank. Just for clarification. I do not think he has ever won TOTM

Floyd yea im not talking about the paul b with the 40 year old tank im talking about reefkeeper 2 which his name is also paul b (paul brune)

Ace25
01-06-2013, 08:22 PM
I am a huge proponent for the use of bacteria to filter a reef tank, I just think there are better ways to do it than the current method of using bio-pellets. I know why my tank crashed from using them. It stripped my tank clean, lead to my SPS corals dying which put food back into the water, stripped again, led to my ATS screen dying, and the cycle continued until there was nothing left to die. That is the yo-yo effect I speak of and this is caused by not being able to control the bacteria. FWIW, I run a Bubble Magus Nac 7 skimmer on a 75G cube tank, currently I don't use the cup on it though but did when I used pellets.

Every tank is different, this is why there will always be a certain amount of success stories for any method. I have been in this hobby long enough to see more bad things happen than good with the current method of using bio-pellets. You may be one of the 30% that has success and that is great. I certainly don't wish failure on anyone in this hobby because failure usually means death to some animal and for that reason and seeing both the amount of success and failures, I just can't recommend using bio-pellets in a normal reactor.

I have talked about a few different methods in various threads on here. Since I am a 'light junkie' I am geared more towards finding out which bacteria likes which type of spectrum so I can make a reactor and employ the use of proper lighting to entice the bacteria to live in a certain location within the system. We know bacteria like to colonize around both the upper and lower extreme visual spectrums, 400 and 700nm, if a 'good' bacteria has a preference for the 400nm side then I can use that light on a reactor in order to entice the bacteria to stay colonized in one location. I am thinking of a reactor with a piece of bio-pellet sheet (http://reefbuilders.com/2012/12/07/ecobak-nwf-biopellet-sheets/), super low flow, and proper light would make an excellent bacteria reactor. Same concept we use with algae scrubbers, we use the screen and proper spectrum to entice the algae to live in a location of our choosing instead of the entire system.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7257/7851958430_fe528bbf69_b.jpg

Floyd R Turbo
01-07-2013, 07:48 AM
That BP sheet looks very interesting