Corals dying due to scrubbers.....why?

[duganderson]

There is a good thread on Reef Central talking about Algae Scrubbers.....

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2138734&page=2

On page two of this thread, a few folks talk about several types of corals (especially softies and LPS) not doing well when using a scrubber. Why is this? How to prevent this? Is it due to using too big of a scrubber OR too little feeding OR other issues?

What things would you monitor in a tank with a scrubber to make sure this does not happen?

Thanks

[Ace25]

There are a million and one variables that could cause issues, but to say an algae scrubber as a concept causes it is false. An incorrectly built or maintained scrubber could cause issues, but doing anything incorrectly (alk/ca dosing, water changes, carbon dosing) would also cause major issues as well. On the tank below, I notice my LPS corals start to not open up fully on day 9 after cleaning my screen, and the screen is usually really nasty if I let it go that long. On mine I think that is the time I start to have die off of the roots of algae on the screen which causes the issues I see, but that is easily fixed by making sure to clean the screen every 7 days.

Here is my 'scrubber only' tank. Video taken with an iPod. Tank seems to be doing well for me with all types of corals. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYaRJK7co7M

[Devs]

Gotta bite my lip on this post !!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Don't. Be honest and tell us what you think man.

[kerry]

Gotta bite my lip on this post !!

Please dont!!!!!! This is a very open forum and NO FLAMING goes on here!!!! Let us know what you think. Its been common knowledge about softies and LPS in a scrubber tank but folks like Me and others have proven them wrong but some have troubles with this type of coral so we would like to know.

[Devs]

At the time I posted that, the RC site was down so couldn't read the thread on there, having since done so, I now see what it was all about. What also needs to be taken into account is the fact that the RC thread was started almost a year ago and since then the work and research that has been done on scrubbers especially by SM and Floyd, has been...well, nothing short of revolutionary.

I suppose really this thread could have been titled better is what I'm trying to say :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Actually not much has changed in the last year, but a lot of people don't keep up on the forums, they might read something in one spot that isn't quite right and follow that, so they end up running a scrubber that might or might not have all the basic techniques followed, and then when they run into problems, it's usually related to not enough research. I still see posts where people are planning to follow the water-volume guideline and under-light the screen.

[Ace25]

What also needs to be taken into account is the fact that the RC thread was started almost a year ago and since then the work and research that has been done on scrubbers especially by SM and Floyd, has been...well, nothing short of revolutionary.
Floyd does make a great ATS, but I would like to think my research was a major part into his build. I posted this several years ago when I was experimenting with LEDs, showing how you can make a smaller box that fits on the sump and uses LEDs. To me it looks very similar to Floyds and was drawn and posted on the net before he started designing his ATS's.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8223/8368389670_621d4c1689.jpg
Then there is this one I posted on here.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7280/7627194482_2c9bc2c40a.jpg

6 months later, SM has a new design idea and posts this.
http://www.algaescrubber.net/P6.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yep. I think your research was a major part of everyone's current techniques. you were in the LED game before I was in the scrubber game.

I don't recall specifically seeing your post that had the first pic it in but I also would not doubt that I posted on the thread in which you originally posted it! One could say that my design is similar in form factor to the SM100 also, but there are so many common features that an enclosed-box scrubber inherently has, it is difficult to make one look different or original and still have the same function.

Also you know where I stand on the patent issue. You can patent an assembly of non-original ideas (ref: Jim Stime's Jelliquarium). So I would not say I am claiming any original ideas. Even the drain system is really a modified Herbie. The false bottom was originally suggested to me by chrissu. The LED mixture/ratio is far from proprietary, although my 1/2 power blues concept was the first I had seen done that way, still far from patentable in and of itself.

[Devs]

Please excuse my ignorance Ace in omitting your name.

Here is a rendered image of one I am making which will hopefully start tomorrow when/if my acrylic arrives.

3825

[Ace25]

Yep. I think your research was a major part of everyone's current techniques. you were in the LED game before I was in the scrubber game.

I don't recall specifically seeing your post that had the first pic it in but I also would not doubt that I posted on the thread in which you originally posted it! One could say that my design is similar in form factor to the SM100 also, but there are so many common features that an enclosed-box scrubber inherently has, it is difficult to make one look different or original and still have the same function.
Exactly.. my first 'design' above was a culmination of the SM100 and the use of LEDs to make it smaller and fit on the rim of a sump, and I made sure to say exactly that and give credit to SM/the SM100 design. It is easy to see how I could have come up with the idea when you look at my ATS v2 build thread, it is just making my current LED ATS smaller and 'removable'. I am not saying you or SM did anything wrong. Just every once and a while I would like to see some credit thrown my way for all the work I have done. ;) This is not directed towards you, Floyd, at all, as we both know we have gone back and forth in emails and I believe have much respect for each other. When I post my ideas it is for everyone to see and utilize themselves if possible. I do this as a hobby, not to make money as you know, and I am happy you are have the ability to take it further than I am willing to by building them yourself, and you certainly make what I would call 'the best ATS' on the market. :)

Here is my post I made with the drawing of that scrubber above:

So here is a quick and dirty MS paint of my idea for my next scrubber.

To explain what that simple thing is, pretty much a mini Santa Monica 100 that uses LEDs and will fit inside the rim of the sump on a 15G tank. The ATS box will sit 1/2 above the rim and half below the rim to keep it compact in my short stands. It will be all black, I just used different colors in the drawing to show the different pieces. Screen will be 6"x6" and using 6 LEDs per side, 2x 455nm, 2x 630-640nm, and 2x 650-660nm per side. The box will be made out of black ABS plastic ordered from tapplastics.com, cut with a table saw, sanded, and bonded with weld-on. There will be a 90 degree barb fitting for the input side and a drain on the bottom, there will be 3 independent lids, led light boxes using lexan as dividers between the screen so ensure no warping/melting from the LEDs being so close. The whole thing will be solid, water tight, and modular, simply unplug the pump feeding the ATS and plug for the LEDs and you can pull the entire thing right off if you needed to. There will be baffles in the sump, I just didn't draw any.

This drawing depicts a 15G sump (24"x10"x13"tall), so the ATS part is really small, about 9" long x 8" deep x 8" tall for the box part.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Dang, it's like a predecessor! A lot of the same concepts! Even the dimensions are close!