Generation 4 ATS build

[rygh]

Time to upgrade again.

I am actually pretty happy with my current one, but after a few years now,
there are a couple of things I want to change.

1) Use the water coming from main tank to sump, not a separate pump.
I am tired of the cost of that extra electricity, and the various leaks I have had.

2) Put the scrubber inside the sump a bit.
I am having moisture and space issues, so really want to consolidate things.

3) Easier to get to.
To get to my current scrubber, I need a ladder. Really.

4) Easier to clean slot, with less buildup.
It is easy to clean my current screens, but not the slot.
Plus I do not have anything blocking light from hitting slot.

5) A bit smaller.
It was built with the old sizing rules.

It will still be a standard two sided waterfall type scrubber. LED lights.
I looked a lot at the new UAS, but I am not sold on that.

As reference, my old version 3 thread is here:
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?605-Version-3-ATS-Vertical-LED-bigger
Versions 1 and 2 are around somewhere on these forums as well, but so old I forgot where.

Lots of details and pictures to follow over the next few weeks.

[rygh]

Here is the basic idea. Side view.
Water comes in from main tank, down into sump, up through scrubber, to main pipe with slot.
Screens are just touching the water.
LEDs on each side.
The LEDS need to be mostly sealed, since water level comes up when pumps are off.

The safety drain is above the scrubber. If slot fills with algae, I can't have my main tank overflow.

[rygh]

Anything brand new in LEDs these days???

My current leaning:

I will have a single Mean Well LPC-60-1050 constant current driver.
It will drive two strings in parallel. One string for each side of the scrubber.
So each string is 525 mA, from 9-48Vf.

I partly chose that because I happen to have one already.
But also because the lower 525 mA means more LEDs (1W per), so a bit
better distribution than using 700 mA. Also slightly more efficient.

Each string will have 4 sets of:
2 x Philips Rebel ES 660nm Deep Red LED
1 x Cheap standard Red LED (roughly 620 nm)
1 x Cheap warm white LED (which fills in spectrum, and also gives a bit of blue)
So 32 total for scrubber, roughly 38 watts.

[MorganAtlanta]

Will you need some active cooling on the LEDs since they will be "mostly sealed"?

[rygh]

Will you need some active cooling on the LEDs since they will be "mostly sealed"?

I definitely need something.
But fans are out.
I will probably mount all the LEDs on a flat aluminum plate like the previous ones.
I may then extend the plate up, and put some big heat sinks on that.
But still thinking about it.

Alternately is to figure out some way to dump the heat into the tank.
Since I run the ATS at night, the extra heat is a benefit, not a problem.

[MorganAtlanta]

Could you mount them on square aluminum tubing and blow air through it? Make it like a U and blow air in one side and let it come out the other? Put the fan remote and blow the air through a hose so the fan isn't exposed to salt?

[rygh]

Could you mount them on square aluminum tubing and blow air through it? Make it like a U and blow air in one side and let it come out the other? Put the fan remote and blow the air through a hose so the fan isn't exposed to salt?

Very good idea. I had not thought of a remote fan on a hose, That solves they key issue.

To take it further : I need standoff supports in the LED box, so that the box does not collapse if it ends up submerged.
I could make those in a maze like pattern, for airflow. That way I can still mount the LEDs to the plate.
I already have the plate, and I think it will take less space that way.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Sweet, another rygh build

Check out Steve's LEDs for the fan blowers MA mentions. Old ones out of Sony TVs that were discontinued.

[rygh]

So what size to make it??

* My estimate of peak feeding:
Roughly 4 cubes per day.
Plus roughly 8 pinches of flake per day.
Plus about 6 inches of dried seaweed per day.

* From the new sizing guidelines:
That is about 6 "units" on the new sizing guidelines.
So 12 * 6 = 72 square inches, double sided waterfall.
And also 72 watts of CFL.
My rough estimate is 72 watts of CFL = 18 watts of LED.

* Current scrubber
Size = 20x14 = 280 sq inches.
Power = Optimized color 26 LEDs, at 700 mA = roughly 45 watts = roughly 180 CFL watts
Obviously WAY over sized by the newer rules.

I am very reluctant to reduce the size that much.
The fact is, it works very well, and my bio-load is still going up, not down.
Plus, I can easily go 2 weeks with no worries.

* New plan:
Width will be 16 inches. Sump is 20 inches wide. I think 2 inches on each side is doable.
Height will be 14 inches. Of which 12 will be above water level, so call it 13.
So that is 224 sq inches.
Lighting is 32 LEDs at 525 mA versus 26 at 700 mA. Basically identical.

So 0.8X old scrubber, but 3X recommended size.

Still, it would be nice to be a bit smaller. Easier to build with more room on the sides.

Thoughts?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I am of the opinion that there is more to is than X * Y = Z for screen sizing. Turnover rate has to be factored in. I have one L2 customer who has several friends running 100 sq in screens and their systems look great, while his seems a little overwhelmed, even though he's growing shockingly large amounts of algae for a small screen. This may have to do with the many changes he has made to his system in recent weeks, including changing tanks then switching from LED to MH lighting. But nonetheless it makes sense that a wider screen with a higher flow rate would mean a larger turnover rate of the tank water versus a smaller narrower screen, which might allow more contact time for tank algae to get an advantage.

On the other hand, I have people whose tanks went from "I've tried everything and I'm ready to sell it all off" to "I do nothing to my tank and it looks awesome".

But I think going up to 50% oversized past your feeding based calculations cannot hurt.

As for LEDs I have found that using one 3W LED @ 700mA on each side for every 2" x 2" section is about the maximum and seems to work well. If you're running then at a lower mA then keeping it the same would probably be about right and you may not need diffusers then. I have a few people removing the diffusers after the screen is well cured and their growth doubles. So keep that in mind.

EDIT I just read all of your post and 3x the recommended size, I would go for that. If it works, it works. Why change it that much.

[rygh]

Good to hear.

The size change is mostly to make it fit in the sump. But from pictures, my growth is not as long,
so pretty clearly over-sized.

I do hope to eliminate the diffusion grid. I am pretty sure I am losing a fair bit of light in that.

I did not mention flow, but largely because it will be adjustable.
The max flow is the entire tank drain, which is from dual Pan world 50PX-X, with about 4 feet of
head = roughly 1400 GPH.
At a 16 inch width, that is 90 GPH/inch.
But I will have a bypass valve, plus I can limit it with slot width.

[Cole_lol]

As for LEDs I have found that using one 3W LED @ 700mA on each side for every 2" x 2" section is about the maximum and seems to work well. If you're running then at a lower mA then keeping it the same would probably be about right and you may not need diffusers then. I have a few people removing the diffusers after the screen is well cured and their growth doubles. So keep that in mind.

EDIT I just read all of your post and 3x the recommended size, I would go for that. If it works, it works. Why change it that much.

So you suggest at a max one 3 watt led at 700 ma per 2in x 2in square. Is that with out without the led being difused?
What light cycle do you recomend at this wattage?

Also you suggest that oversizeing the screen? So what every the recomended amount is multiply it by 1.5?

[kerry]

This led stuff is all over the road. I have about a 36" (6x6 roughly) screen and run 5 3 watt leds per side (one of the 5 is blue 445nm) driven at 680mA though diffusers. I get huge growth like this too, like to the tune of it hangs off like a mop after a couple weeks if I feed heavy. Other times it just grows 1-2" thick.

[rygh]

As for LEDs I have found that using one 3W LED @ 700mA on each side for every 2" x 2" section is about the maximum and seems to work well. If you're running then at a lower mA then keeping it the same would probably be about right and you may not need diffusers then. I have a few people removing the diffusers after the screen is well cured and their growth doubles. So keep that in mind.

Wow, that is a very different number from what I have. But you did say max.
So 6W total for 4 sq in. = 420W for 280 sq in.
I have 1/9 that, with diffusion grid.

I realized I calculated the wattage wrong above on my "new guidelines" as well.
Confused on the usual single/dual side thing.
Should have been 144 CFL watts, not 72 CFL watts.

Comparing my scrubber to the recommended one:
My screens are really big, but my lighting is really weak.

Funny.

[rygh]

Wow, that is a very different number from what I have. But you did say max.
So 6W total for 4 sq in. = 420W for 280 sq in.
I have 1/9 that, with diffusion grid.

I realized I calculated the wattage wrong above on my "new guidelines" as well.
Confused on the usual single/dual side thing.
Should have been 144 CFL watts, not 72 CFL watts.

Comparing my scrubber to the recommended one:
My screens are really big, but my lighting is really weak.

Funny.

Oops : Actually no, my lighting based on feed rate is about right.
My lighting based on screen size is off.
Basically - screen is too large.
But of course it works.
I get 1/3 inch or so per week, where others get 1 inch, because my screen is 3X too large.
Ehhh...

[Ace25]

How about one of these to cool them? Don't ask where to find a real one, but I thought it was an interesting idea for a cooling fan for LEDs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YADj5kWYiPs

As for lighting, I think once you get the correct spectrum(s) the amount you use can vary widely, and as I am finding out with my .06w LED PAR38 bulbs (11w total), you really don't need much to get great growth. Personally, I don't buy into the line of thinking that you want to try and match your display intensity to your ATS as I have read, but that is just my opinion.

[rleahaines]

What I am running into is the overpowering of the UAS by the display lighting. Getting more Algae in the Display Tank than in the UAS. Mostly hair algae.

I also am getting lots of Algae growth in my siphon/overflow box - almost as if it is a algae scrubber itself.

I am reducing DT hours slowly and raising UAS lighting hours - although I current have the UAS lights running 18 on 6 off

I also am cutting back on feeding my fishes.

Of course harvesting algae from anywhere in the system exports P and Nitrates. Just not getting a pretty algae free tank.

My Xenia corals are growing like crazy.

Coralline Algae is starting to grow in a number of places as well.

[rygh]

Digi-Key has the Nuventix cooling thingamajigs. About $20.
Intriguing.

[rygh]

So here is the latest plan.
A few tweaks. One less white.
I really want to try passive cooling.
Each side is 20 Watts, but probably less than 10 of that is thermal.
The idea is to mount everything on an aluminum plate.
The LED side is mostly sealed.
But there will be large heat sinks on top, exposed to air.

If that does not work, I can add a fan that pipes air in.

[rygh]

Sweet, another rygh build

Check out Steve's LEDs for the fan blowers MA mentions. Old ones out of Sony TVs that were discontinued.

I just figured out what you meant by Steve's LEDs. I had assumed it was a thread on these forums.
Glad I have not ordered the electronics yet.

[rygh]

This build has really stalled.

The problem is the plumbing. Very frustrating.
My main tank is in the family room, and sump is in the garage, so drains have a long distance.
Before, the drains operated mostly in full-siphon, with a fairly low outlet point in the sump.
If I put the scrubber in the drain loop, there are two issues.
First, it raises the height of the drain output point in the sump.
Second, it breaks the siphon effect.
I did not think it would be all that different, but it was. As-is, the tank will overflow.
The drains are already dual 1+1/2 inch pipe, and going to 2 inches is a massive job.

I have some other ideas, but it is not looking great.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well, you could always pump feed the scrubber.

[rygh]

Well, you could always pump feed the scrubber.

Yeah, I probably will.
Otherwise the plumbing becomes an endless mess. And risking tank overflow inside the house is really bad.
Plus a dedicated pump means I can have pressure in the slot, like normal.

I was really hoping to reduce the power use.
Although making the scrubber smaller plus lowering it will still help, since I can use a smaller pump.

[realtime3d]

Following along. I have a design very similar to yours. I have a 40g breeder sump with two parallel waterfall scrubbers fed directly by 1 of 2 corner overflows from my DT. Each scrubber is 17" long x 5" high and has 5 leds (4 red / 1 rblue) on each side running at 375mA. Both scrubbers are driven by a 25W driver. Both scrubbers sit on the rim of the aquarium where the glass normally sits. It's relatively new and incorporates some experiments to see the effects. Having two in parallel makes experiments somewhat easy.

One interesting side effect of the direct overflow into the tank is that the durso standpipe is causing air to mix with the water prior to flowing into the scrubbers. Because of the plumbing, one chamber gets the bubbles while the other because of flow regulation gets only water. The side with bubbles gets much better growth.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Make the pump bigger than you think you need is my advise. If you calculate that you need 300 GPH at the pipe, figure the head loss factor then go up 1 or 2 pump sizes and valve the pump back. If you get an underperforming scrubber, crank up the flow. I am seeing more and more that with LED scrubbers and high flow (over 50 GPH/in), the growth is great, once the screen is cured.

[rygh]

Very interesting data about the bubbles showing better growth. I had been thinking of experimenting with that a while back,
but never had the time.

Two smaller scrubbers is an interesting thought. I had really been focused on one large one, but two might allow me to have one on the returns,
and one on a pump.

Agree with Bud on the over sized pumps. Especially since throttling it back can reduce power used in the pump as well. (Depends on pumps/curves, but common)

I have two PanWorld 50PXX pumps, and one PanWorld 40PX (from old tank).
Having 3 50PXX is nice in case one fails. But not free.

[SantaMonica]

Multiple smaller screens are always better than one larger one. Redundancy, scalability, ongoing filtering with consistent nutrient management, are some of the benefits.

[rygh]

Once I started drawing everything, it quickly turned into a big mess.
Violating the old "Keep It Simple Stupid" principle.

So the latest plan is to just have a separate pump, internal to sump, for scrubber.
And leave the main tank returns alone.

Quick drawing enclosed.

The MJ-3000 drives 500 GPH at 4 feet of head. While the height is only about 1.5 feet,
I figure with the slot and all, about 500 GPH seems ok. Hopefully I can even avoid a valve.

Given 500 GPH max, and normal plastic canvas being 10.5 x 13.5.
I will probably make the screen about 12 x 13
So two screens, each 6 x 13.5, but figure 0.5 of the screen is up in the slot.
That is 41 GPH/inch of screen.
Overall screen is 156 sq inches. A bit more than half of my old scrubber.

(MJ-3000 is one option. I might get a Water Blaster 3000 instead)

[rygh]

I am back.
Knee injury, then some big plumbing problems in the tank. A new scrubber was much lower priority.

Some quick pictures of the new build.
First, most of the box, taped together.
Then some gluing.
And a new DC super-efficient pump. Picked it up cheap, but seems good.
The pump is controllable as well. I could even turn it down when LEDs are off.

[kotlec]

I could even turn it down when LEDs are off.

Not sure if this is good idea. Probably you mean slow it down ?

[SantaMonica]

Welcome back. Hopefully knee better.

[rygh]

Not sure if this is good idea. Probably you mean slow it down ?
Yes.
The concept is to reduce the pump flow a bit if the lights are off.
It needs enough flow to keep algae wet, but not that much more.
Perhaps cutting the pump rate in half.
That would result in roughly a 25% reduction in pump power used.

Not a huge savings, but noticeable over time. Probably not worth the effort though.

[rygh]

Welcome back. Hopefully knee better.
Thanks.

It is amazing how much of an annoyance it is to try to work on equipment, sumps, and such when you cannot kneel down.

[rygh]

Design drawing, side view.
This shows the box, and how it fits down in the sump.
Central box for screen. Screen just touches water in sump, so less splash.
Side boxes, sealed at bottom, open at top, for LED panels.

[rygh]

Just thought I would post a picture of my main tank, to go with the thread.
It is about 240G, mixed reef, but more emphasis on softies, less SPS.
Hardly a spec of green algae in it! Although I have to give some credit to the tangs.

[SantaMonica]

Let's keep it nice like that :)

[rygh]

LED CHOICE (always a fun topic)

As reference, the screen is 11" x 11", so 121 sq inches.
Double sided old fashioned waterfall type.

Lighting planned:
Driver = Meanwell LPC-60-1050 (Normally 1050 mA, but split into 2 x 525 mA)
All LEDs will have 80 degree lenses
8 x Deep Red : Rebel-ES, 660nm
8 x Red : Cree XP-E, 625 nm
8 x Blue : Cree XP-E, 470 nm
8 x Warm White : Cree XP-G

Since they all run at 525mA, that is about 44 watts total.

Some of those choices are based on what I have leftover from other projects.

I am avoiding ebay non-name-brand. Some bad luck there.

I thought about using a big 10W mixed 660+470. Would save a lot of time and effort.
But no name brand, cooling issues, and light spread issues.

I thought about all deep reds, but I like the standard red as well. Still a bit undecided though.
In fact, I am thinking about all standard reds instead as well.
The 660nm is a better spectrum hit, but standard reds are more efficient.
But really - it barely matters anyway, and standard reds are cheaper.

The warm white is to fill in the spectrum. A very unscientific test I did worked a bit better that way.

[SantaMonica]

If nothing else the whites will let you see it.

[rygh]

The main box is done.
And painted. To keep light spill down a bit.

[rygh]

Anyone have any experience with these LEDs????
http://www.illumitex.com/led-horticulture-fixtures/eclipse/

Seems really good. Nice mix of spectra. Would save a lot of wiring.
Also very nice spread, which is so often far more of a problem than the correct wavelengths.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Rygh, have you seen my new LED board? It's 6x 660nm and 2 445nm with jumpers between each pair. Essentially it's the F1 mix.

[rygh]

Rygh, have you seen my new LED board? It's 6x 660nm and 2 445nm with jumpers between each pair. Essentially it's the F1 mix.
Cool.
No, I have not seen details on it. Link? You have a ton of threads (and multiple sites).

[rygh]

Found it. Nice!!

[rygh]

I am having trouble making a decision. Any advice???

Option 1 gives the cleanest and best spectrum, but is really overkill for algae.
Option 2 is very powerful and efficient, especially with the lenses focusing the reds.
Option 3 is "good", and the simplest/cheapest of the normal options.
Option 4 is the easiest and cheapest overall, but a bit unknown.

Options 1 and 4 would likely need diffusion grating, to reduce spotting issues.
Option 2 probably uses 350mA current, as opposed to 525 mA for the others.

It is not a coincidence that option 3 matches Bud's new LED setup.

[Floyd R Turbo]

can you even get the illumitex chips individually?

[rygh]

can you even get the illumitex chips individually?
Yes, both Mouser and Cutter sell them, with no minimums.
Mouser is currently $12.60 for F1 type, qty 1.
Cutter is slightly cheaper, but international shipping.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I knew I had seen these before

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1934-vahegan-s-UAS-test

[rygh]

Ok, all done. :-)

Special kudos to Bud (Floyd R Turbo).
I ended up buying his LED boards, and they work great !!!!
Saved a ton of time, and a good deal.

Quick summary:
Normal waterfall scrubber.
LED lit on each side.
Total LEDs = 32 deep red + 16 royal blue.
Deep reds are running at 350 mA
Royal blue is running at 175 mA
Screen is 11" x 13" - double sided.
Pump is a Jaebo DC-6000. (Only uses 20W !!!!)

Pictures to follow.

[rygh]

Pictures 1

[rygh]

pictures 2

[Floyd R Turbo]

Holy heat sinks batman!

[rygh]

screen after 2 days.
It was seeded though, from rubbing it with scrapings from old scrubber.

[rygh]

Holy heat sinks batman!
Well, it was tricky, since the LEDs are down inside the box. So I figured just make it big.
And those were cheap surplus anyway.

[rygh]

Growing fairly well now.
But still a lot of brown algae. The nice hair algae is rather slowly taking over.
One issue is the the clips to hold the screen to the pipe seem to mess up the flow more than expected.
I decided to increase the slot a little bit, and cut an hour out of the lighting.
(I run 4 hours every 12)

[SantaMonica]

Yes certainly looking like it needs more flow.

[rygh]

Yes certainly looking like it needs more flow.
Yep. If the slot does not help, the pump is only running about 1/3 speed.
So pretty easy fix. But as usual - lots of endless fiddling.