Ultra-High Nutrient Tank - No Scrubber Growth

[Floyd R Turbo]

So here's a tricky one for y'all to pick apart. First, a quick background.

Tank is in a Japanese Steakhouse. 225 FOWLR. When I came across it, it looked like this

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/IMG_7780.jpg

Nitrates well off the scale (over 800 on API, extrapolated after diluting sample water with fresh SW) and Phos who knows.

With 1 fish alive

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/IMG_7784.jpg

And one that I found under a rock when emptying the tank, and he was blind and barely alive

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/IMG_7793.jpg

He died a few weeks later.

I pulled the fish & bio-balls out into a temp tank

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/IMG_7790.jpg

Soaked all the rocks in freshwater, sprayed with bleach, rinsed, etc...Then sanded down the main tank (took 2 weeks @ 2 hours/day) and set it all up again.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/2010-05-13/IMG_7857.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Third%20Cust%20225%20FOWLR/IMG_7785.jpg

That was almost 3 years ago.

Now, because the owner hasn't wanted to pay for monthly water changes, and they really didn't seem to be making much of a dent, the tank is back to super high nutrients.

The result is N is over 400, and P is around 6.5, both using diluted samples. Please do not crucify me!!! LOL

I added an L2 (original version) in October of 2012. I wanted to see how it would perform. Turns out, it doesn't - at all.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/002_zps037d0b51.jpg

The only growth I get is in the bottom of the box:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/003_zps116b914f.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/004_zps365f7e82.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/005_zps99d2bb23.jpg

...and it's sort of like a skin of algae

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/049_zpscc050a06.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/050_zps3f4d8a71.jpg

Then there is some emerald green growth inside the slot pipe - deep inside it, like where there is nearly zero light, and some brown growth right at the bottom of the screen (underwater)

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/006_zpsba562b50.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/Algae%20Scrubber/052_zpsc0def30b.jpg

This is what it looks like, week after week, for over 3 months. The screen is bare white, like it was brand new, and the only growth is at the slot pipe junction and up into the pipe, and in the corners and bottom of the box.

I have tried running the lights 24/7 (for one week, a month into it) but for the most part I run the lights 1 hour on, 1 hour off, for a total "on" time of 12 hours/day.

So what is the deal here? Nutrients too high for algae to grow? No presence of proper strain of algae?

Is it just high P, just high N, or both? Could I run GFO to pull down P? I recall a thread about high P inhibiting algae growth. They clean the tank with a algae mop once a week and there is hardly any growth.

The restaurant changed owners last year, and the new owner wants to turn it into a full-blown reef tank (and so do I!!). I can do a PWC if I really need to, but it's a PITA on this tank. I was hoping that the algae scrubber would at least make a dent in the nutrients - I haven't even bothered to re-test.

To my knowledge, no one has tried putting an algae scrubber on a tank that is this high in nutrients. So maybe there is a limit to what the scrubber can do. If that is the case, this tank is well beyond it.

So I'll leave it to the study-diggers to dig up something that might explain this...

[Garf]

Very interesting. Have you re seeded it since the bleach treatment, to get a bit of micro fauna / flora going?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Nope, but I didn't soak the rock, just sprayed with straight bleach, scrubbed, rinsed right away, and soaked in water treated with prime. The red growth on the rocks came back eventually, but the gravel stays clean. The old gravel was regular aquarium gravel, the new stuff I put in is Special Grade Reef Sand

Here is the tank now

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/2012-12-05/IMG_0622.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/2012-12-05/IMG_0623.jpg

Oh yeah and the scrubber

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2003%20225%20FOWLR%20to%20Reef/2012-12-05/IMG_0618.jpg

Had to take skimmer off. Until I replace the sump with a 40B, they won't both fit

[Ace25]

Needs more light.

LOL.. sorry, had to say it. ;)

Why are they still using bioballs on that tank? Obviously the bioballs are not helping much and I would imagine there are many other things you can put in the chamber that would benefit the tank more.

[Nick28]

light is too intense in the center part

remove a few leds and see what happens

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well I have 50 of the exact same scrubber out there being used by customers (original Rev 1 L2), and none of them have had zero growth like this. It's not the LED intensity specifically that is wrong. It has to have something to do with the nutrient levels, or lack of specific algae.

Initially when I re-started the tank, there was an on-and-off cyano bloom on the sand bed, mostly red, but some green. I was doing small PWCs and vacuuming the gravel bed for a while. Then I decided to leave the bed alone and let them just turn over the top layer when they cleaned the glass with the mop, and after a while it just went away. So there is a strong possibility that the tank is lacking the algae needed (no GHA). Even the display tank has never grown any GHA. Just this layer of red that is mostly picked off by the Sailfin Tang.

the bio-balls are there because, well, that's what they had, and the original owner was not interested in re-doing the entire filtration system. He just wanted the tank cleaned up and scratches taken out, and better fish. I put a bunch of fish in after the tank stabilized originally, then there was some unanticipated aggressiveness and the fish population dwindled down. I have wanted to get rid of the bioballs but for lack of any other initial filtration, I left them in to keep a cycle from happening and just haven't had the time to remove them.

The sump itself is a POS and the seams are starting to show signs of failure so the plan is to take a 40B and drill it for the pump bulkheads, then build an insertable acrylic intake chamber on one end which will overflow into a filter sock chamber (right now there is a filter pad & drip plate over the bio-balls), then the skimmer and scrubber. Unfortunately there is little room for an auto-top off system or a storage bucket, at least without modification to the wall surrounding the sump area.

However, the customer (new owner) is a former reef tank owner and is willing to really dump $$ into the tank. They actually get many positive comments now (from non-reef folks LOL)

The plan is:
Fix nutrients
Replace sump
remove non reef safe fish
replace PC lighting with LED (perhaps a couple of DreamChips)
Add a bunch more LR
Add corals and reef safe fish

But first things first. Why the problems with the scrubber....

[Ace25]

Since you can make acrylic sumps, why not make a completely custom one that has a built in section for ATO water? I have seen a few custom sumps that had that feature.

And ya, lack of any GHA is probably the cause, take a rock out of some other tank that has some and stick it in the sump, I bet that will help a ton.

[SantaMonica]

Well the stuff that is growing is certainly high-nutrient growth... thick and gell-like. What may be happening is that any similar gell-like growth that tries to attach gets washed away because gell-like growth has no roots. Possible solution might be to slow the flow.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Since you can make acrylic sumps, why not make a completely custom one that has a built in section for ATO water? I have seen a few custom sumps that had that feature.

And ya, lack of any GHA is probably the cause, take a rock out of some other tank that has some and stick it in the sump, I bet that will help a ton.

I have made those as well. But they kind of balked at the cost. A 40B is a cheap alternative for now. They currently just dump in 5g of RODI whenever the sump gets low. Plus an built-in ATO chamber would likely be on the end of the tank opposite the pumps and quite difficult to access. Still a possibility though.

Introducing GHA to the tank might create a bigger problem though...the tank might turn into a forest!


Well the stuff that is growing is certainly high-nutrient growth... thick and gell-like. What may be happening is that any similar gell-like growth that tries to attach gets washed away because gell-like growth has no roots. Possible solution might be to slow the flow.

Gel-like is a good description. It reminds me of the inside of a Mike & Ike candy, like when you suck on one and the outer coating is gone. It's like a semi-hard gelatinous stuff that breaks into chunks when you squeeze it.

I had not considered slowing the flow.

[celtic_fox]

Introducing GHA to the tank might create a bigger problem though...the tank might turn into a forest!



Since your scrubbers are identical, have you thought about taking a screen from another tank, that's halfway through it's growth/cleaning cycle, and putting it in that scrubber? That way you jump to a fully functioning screen instead of a screen ramping up and hoping to stay ahead of whatever might spread from a seed rock throughout the tank.

[Ace25]

I have made those as well. But they kind of balked at the cost. A 40B is a cheap alternative for now. They currently just dump in 5g of RODI whenever the sump gets low. Plus an built-in ATO chamber would likely be on the end of the tank opposite the pumps and quite difficult to access. Still a possibility though.
Something I have always thought of doing later in life when I get my dream tank is to have a built in ATO section, then put a 'gas cap' on the side of the stand with a hose going to the ATO section, then you can use a new gas container with RO/DI to fill up the ATO easily from the outside. ;)

[kotlec]

Introducing GHA to the tank might create a bigger problem though...the tank might turn into a forest!


I thing since screen will start somehow growing something on it , algae will be introduced anyways. Prepare chain saw. :D

[Floyd R Turbo]

Since your scrubbers are identical, have you thought about taking a screen from another tank, that's halfway through it's growth/cleaning cycle, and putting it in that scrubber? That way you jump to a fully functioning screen instead of a screen ramping up and hoping to stay ahead of whatever might spread from a seed rock throughout the tank.

I don't have 50 scrubbers LOL...I have sold 50 of the Rev 1 and 40 of the Rev 2 L2s plus a dozen+ L4s and a few L3s, all together over 100 units in use...no one with this issue in particular (because most people TRY to keep nutrients under control LOL)


Something I have always thought of doing later in life when I get my dream tank is to have a built in ATO section, then put a 'gas cap' on the side of the stand with a hose going to the ATO section, then you can use a new gas container with RO/DI to fill up the ATO easily from the outside. ;)

Yeah I had thought of that too! So would you have a "fuel gauge" on the outside too, so you knew when to stop?? LOL


I thing since screen will start somehow growing something on it , algae will be introduced anyways. Prepare chain saw. :D

You know, it's always been said that the dark slime growth occurs in high nutrients, and that taking a screen from a scrubbed, low nutrient tank and putting it in a non-scrubbed, high nutrient tank would result in the GHA dying. So why is it that the next tank that I sort-of maintain (Chinese restaurant with no extra $$, but a 125 filled with algae) has N even higher, P who knows where, yet the tank is literally a forest of GHA? I mean, strands in the DT so long that they braid together to form 2' ropes, and the overflow teeth get clogged so badly that the water fills up to the tank lids before spilling over the top of the overflow boxes. No problem with GHA in that environment. Why is the scrubber different? Ok that's off topic. But anyways, I might strap a few scraps of screen to another scrubber for a few weeks and see if I can't seed the screen and/or system.

[Nick28]

Well I have 50 of the exact same scrubber out there being used by customers (original Rev 1 L2), and none of them have had zero growth like this. It's not the LED intensity specifically that is wrong. It has to have something to do with the nutrient levels, or lack of specific algae.

Initially when I re-started the tank, there was an on-and-off cyano bloom on the sand bed, mostly red, but some green. I was doing small PWCs and vacuuming the gravel bed for a while. Then I decided to leave the bed alone and let them just turn over the top layer when they cleaned the glass with the mop, and after a while it just went away. So there is a strong possibility that the tank is lacking the algae needed (no GHA). Even the display tank has never grown any GHA. Just this layer of red that is mostly picked off by the Sailfin Tang.

the bio-balls are there because, well, that's what they had, and the original owner was not interested in re-doing the entire filtration system. He just wanted the tank cleaned up and scratches taken out, and better fish. I put a bunch of fish in after the tank stabilized originally, then there was some unanticipated aggressiveness and the fish population dwindled down. I have wanted to get rid of the bioballs but for lack of any other initial filtration, I left them in to keep a cycle from happening and just haven't had the time to remove them.

The sump itself is a POS and the seams are starting to show signs of failure so the plan is to take a 40B and drill it for the pump bulkheads, then build an insertable acrylic intake chamber on one end which will overflow into a filter sock chamber (right now there is a filter pad & drip plate over the bio-balls), then the skimmer and scrubber. Unfortunately there is little room for an auto-top off system or a storage bucket, at least without modification to the wall surrounding the sump area.

However, the customer (new owner) is a former reef tank owner and is willing to really dump $$ into the tank. They actually get many positive comments now (from non-reef folks LOL)

The plan is:
Fix nutrients
Replace sump
remove non reef safe fish
replace PC lighting with LED (perhaps a couple of DreamChips)
Add a bunch more LR
Add corals and reef safe fish

But first things first. Why the problems with the scrubber....

makes sense since cyano is airborne. tank is sterilized of basically everything from the ocean.

some green algae is airborne like chlorella sp. but not sure if the stuff that grows on screens is.

even if you have one working with the same specs. Since there is little filtering, I would still try removing leds or turn off one side of the screen to see a different pattern.

could there be any medication or copper being dosed? Just giving you a few ideas.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I tore the tank down myself in April of 2010, sanded deep scratches out, then set it back up and I have been the only person to do anything to the tank since then - so unless there is copper bound in the rock, no. I also tested the tank before tear-down for copper using API and Salifert kits, so there was no indication of either forms of copper treatment.

[celtic_fox]

I don't have 50 scrubbers LOL...I have sold 50 of the Rev 1 and 40 of the Rev 2 L2s plus a dozen+ L4s and a few L3s, all together over 100 units in use...no one with this issue in particular (because most people TRY to keep nutrients under control LOL)

I thought my reply might be taken the wrong way. ;-)

I know what you were saying about the number of units sold. I simply meant that you probably have access to the same model on one of the other tanks you upkeep. (Your own or ones that you're paid to take care of.)

With a fully seeded screen you can eliminate to possiblity of no GHA spores (or whatever they use to propagate) in the tank, while hopefully limiting the possibility of an algae explosion while the scrubber is ramping up and still weak. (Might even be a good oportunity to test only scaping one side of the screen till the nutrients come down.)

If the then algae dies, then maybe we chalk it up to "high nutrients can limit or kill GHA", or we continue to try to come up with other theories.

[Nick28]

With a fully seeded screen you can eliminate to possiblity of no GHA spores (or whatever they use to propagate) in the tank, while hopefully limiting the possibility of an algae explosion while the scrubber is ramping up and still weak. (Might even be a good oportunity to test only scaping one side of the screen till the nutrients come down.)



yea try that:)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Good point...

[RkyRickstr]

High nutrients will slow scrubber growth.. inst that proven somewhere?.. what you have is LUDACRISSSS!!!!..

I would do water change after water change till I get nutrients within reach.. then run scrubber 6-8hrs a day to get going.. but thats just me what do I know.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yep...I was hoping to somehow avoid the need for the huge PWCs so get the N and P to below insane levels.

[RkyRickstr]

you are in the wrong business my friend.. lol

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hey man if I could figure out how...I say I am in the right business!!

[Ace25]

I believe there are a few 'magic' bottles made by Dr. Tim that may help with your problem without having to do a water change. Just an option.

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/natural-aquarium-cleaner
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/buyproduct_wasteaway.jpg

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/probiotic-bacteria
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/buyproduct_ecobalance.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't think either of those would cause a reduction in N and P, do they?

[tebo]

hi, Floyd

Why not try to vsv is really cheap and it works great, and more importantly do not need large water changes

Particularly attended an aquarium that although I had such high levels, were close to 100ppm NO3 and phosphate out of range of hanna

In conjunction with the ATS and vsv in controlled doses in four months it down to values close to 0

Saludos

[MorganAtlanta]

Tear it down and start new. 40B sump if that is all that will fit, a decent skimmer and new rock and sand. Otherwise, even if you do "figure it out", it will take months and months to get the nitrate down, and who knows how long to get all the phosphate out that has soaked into the rocks. Your client will end up spending a fortune on your time while you fiddle with it.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well that is indeed the likely reality...

So it's sounding like Muriatic Acid bath for the rocks and a 100% water change. What about the gravel, is that going to be phosphate soaked as well? Probably cheaper to replace that then nuke it.

But, playing Devil's Advocate here...couldn't I just use GFO to suck the P down and then leave that in place while the P leeched out?

Dunno...the fast solution is to tear it down I suppose.

[sabbath]

My .02 It would think that if the ATS it is struggling to kick in with the nutrients TOO high. A bleach/acid bath bath to most of the rocks with a large or adding up to a large WC is in order. Then seed the ATS with a mature screen if you can. I would think that you could siphon the sand and get enough of the problem out. Sand is not cheep and i would hope at this point that the ATS could deal with it.

If is is difficult to make water at this site. Maybe a LFS could deliver it? As I have heard that we have a few in our area that can do this.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have a 150 GPD RODI, 20x 5g buckets, 2x 44g Brute cans and an active club that I'm sure would be willing to help out - several people with 1000 gallon multi-tank systems with large RODI and SW holding tanks...

I would take out most of the rock to nuke, take out the non-reef safe fish and sell them, then QT the keepers while I gravel vac'd and took all the water out, replace w/fresh mixed SW (I might have to invest in / borrow a couple more Brute cans)...I just need the TIME to do all this now...rats.

[Bilk]

Have you considered the idea that the air quality in a Chinese restaurant is contributing to the heavy bio load and much of that is settling in the tank? I'm thinking there's a good amount of cooking oils that are airborne and may limit the effectiveness of the ATS. A larger skimmer may be necessary.

[Floyd R Turbo]

And...just to make things more interesting with this discussion...let's compare The Japanese Steakhouse tank to the Chinese Restaurant Tank I previously mentioned.

Here is the album showing before and after the initial clean-up of the Chinese Restaurant tank back in late 2011: http://s611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Second%20Customer%20FOWLR/?start=all

That pic of the sponge in the sump is 100% clogged. They hadn't done any maintenance in 3 years - none - just top offs. So I cleaned up the sump and got it working right, scrubbed all the rocks, siphoned out 1/2 of the gravel (no choice - it was a 1/2" thick layer of detritus bound to the top of the gravel) eventually added more LR, got rid of the bio-balls, put in filter socks and a skimmer, it was doing OK. But the owner got lazy on adding top-off water and would just unplug the skimmer when the pump started sucking air, and didn't want to spend $$ on water changes anymore, just filter socks, so I sold the skimmer and now I just replace filter socks every so often and he tops off with water from the local grocery store's drinking water system.

I replaced the lamps in the Coralife 4x96W Power Compact fixture about a year ago and the GHA in the tank completely exploded. Here is what it looks like now, a year after I did that.

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2002%20125%20FOWLR/2013-02-02/001_zps12c29179.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2002%20125%20FOWLR/2013-02-02/002_zps70e3dc07.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2013/Cust%2002%20125%20FOWLR/2013-02-02/003_zpse3aaa418.jpg

Now before you go chastising me on this one as well...I tried my best on this tank at one time. The owner I was dealing with spoke decent English, then as I mentioned he told me to stop all maintenance ($$ issues) and then he sold the restaurant to his uncle and now only one guy speaks English there and he is the cashier. So what I have resorted to is making this tank my next scrubber test tank for no charge (maybe just free food). At least, that was the plan.

But the reason I post these is that the N and P in this tank was also sky-high. N was over 1100 when I started in 2011, and I did a series of rock-scrubbing and huge PWCs (sometimes 3x in a week) to get it down below 100, where it stayed pretty well until the owner stopped the skimmer and told me to minimize maintenance.

When I changed the lights and the GHA exploded, I saw the N drop 200 points in 2 weeks. Not kidding. Haven't tested it lately though. But I know that P is high as well.

So this is a case that could challenge the thoughts presented about the Japanese Steakhouse tank. Why is this high-nutrient tank growing algae so well?

Consider the differences:

1) I didn't tear this tank down and soak the rocks
2) I have never dipped the rocks in FW or anything
3) tank is fed one table shrimp/day, the puffer decimates it and the damsels eat the remains
4) tank has much higher lighting in a smaller volume, shallower tank (4x96W in 125 vs 4x65w in 225)
5) the Chinese tank has a CUC, or at least it did at one time. Japanese tank has no CUC (yet)

For anyone thinking about getting into the maintenance business, these are the kinds of situations you will come across all the time. Poorly maintained systems that need an overhaul, and clients unwilling to spend the money to have it done. Be thankful when you find the ones that want to, because their tanks end up looking like this:

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-12-02/IMG_0214.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-12-02/IMG_0217.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-12-02/IMG_0227.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-12-02/IMG_0236.jpg

And the scrubber works like it should

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2012%20Aquarium%20Pics/Customer%201%20-%20Miracles%20144/2012-12-02/IMG_0200.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Have you considered the idea that the air quality in a Chinese restaurant is contributing to the heavy bio load and much of that is settling in the tank? I'm thinking there's a good amount of cooking oils that are airborne and may limit the effectiveness of the ATS. A larger skimmer may be necessary.

The Japanese Steakhouse has a Hibachi Room that is across the restaurant and around the corner, with extremely large vent hoods above each station. The kitchen has negative air pressure, there is always air moving past the curtains, sucking them towards the kitchen area. I do not believe there is any bio-load contribution due to the kitchen area or Hibachi grill area.

The Chinese restaurant kitchen is also tucked away within the building, there is a passageway and much ventilation so same story.

Good thought though.

[kotlec]

I would thing twice before eating in that chinese restaurant.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I hear ya. That was my initial method of getting my foot in the door, that and getting their FW 225 up and running again. It was a discus tank (and gorgeous) and then they all died with the previous owner took over, so I made it a Cichlid tank and it's doing OK.

Bad thing is, that tank is literally in the entryway. I took that FTS from the doorway into the restaurant. And they don't seem to care to fix it (or at least to pay me to fix it)

[Bilk]

Well I'm sure you thought about asking them if they feed the tank with things they shouldn't, or excessively :) Odd situation to say the least considering how you successfully reverted the tank in the SH to being a beautiful display. There is certainly an X factor at play and until you discover what that is, you'll probably be seeing the same results.

[Floyd R Turbo]

At the Japanese restaurant, they feed a DIY FOWLR food that I made for them, and I cut it into pre-portioned amounts. They feed maximum once/day about 1.5-2 cubes worth, sometimes every other day (but daily on most cases).

[Garf]

Cyanos both outcompete algaes for iron, and send out siderophores which have a toxic effect (Allelopathic) on green algae. The toxic effects can be treated by activated carbon; sounds reasonable to me;

http://europepmc.org/abstract/AGR/IND43799672/reload=0;jsessionid=SQOE4WIRX07rrrSyE5TC.4

Worth a try at least !

[Floyd R Turbo]

Alright...so maybe the non-tear-down answer is to replace the sump with the 40B, add the skimmer back in, add GFO and Carbon and do a big PWC (100g) and see if the scrubber can take off.

I would probably also take out 1/2 of the rock and nuke it after the N and P were dropping, put it back in and let the bacteria re-populate for a while, then nuke the other half.

At least I can present them options now I think.

[Floyd R Turbo]

After considering these posts by Garf on my site


Piecing a few things together;
1). Cyano loves low iron environments as they outcompete algea in these conditions.
2). Cyano exudates chelate iron (to capture it)
3). Excess phosphates can cause iron limitation
4). Algae exudates may chelate (bind) iron making them unusable
5). GFO may leach iron and removes phos.

I'm thinking maybe the combination of the cyano mechanism for surviving in low iron environments in combination with high phosphates has effectively removed available iron for the algae. I think I've read somewhere that this reduction in iron would cause the effect of slow, low light growth (in the slot pipe), whereas high light photo system damage cannot be repaired, so high light areas could not sustain algae growth. Iron limitation is also indicated by lower chlorophyll levels and an increase in carotenoids (brown growth in the water). My thinking is add GFO and a chelated iron suppliment. From memory, potassium is also linked to iron limitation (but don't quote me on that).

Cyano both outcompetes algae for iron, in low iron environments and gives off siderophores which it seems has an unidentified toxic effect on some green algaes (Allelopathy). This however can be neutralised by adding activated carbon (pretty sure this is the same effect I have surmised previously with algae vs algae).

I'm thinking that the cyano (if that's what it is) in the presence of high P (which the rocks were likely soaked with, and it never got soaked out) are likely actually preventing GHA from growing. This likely explains why zero GHA grows in this tank, while is it rampant in the other tank.

This leads me to only one conclusion: If I were to add GFO and Carbon to the Japanese restaurant tank to eliminate the P and reduce the allelopathic effect of the cyano on the GHA, I will in effect create a rainforest of GHA in the Japanese tank.

So, unfortunately, I think the only answer here is to nuke the tank.

The only question then is - do I need to nuke the sand too? Or can I just pull this out and rinse it with a high-pressure hose as if it was new sand?

[WannaRace]

Following this thread.

My tank has slow, brown growth with cyano constantly growing on my sandbed.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well I presented the options to him and he took the re-start one. So it's looks like I will be:

Removing rock
Putting fish into a temp tank
Siphoning gravel thoroughly while draining entire tank
Acclimating fish to fresh SW
Filling tank with new SW
Putting temporary fake decor in tank to give fish structure/territory
Rinsing bio-balls (why not)
Put fish back in
Seeding scrubber (somehow)
Ensure that scrubber will maintain low nutrients
Nuke Rock with HCL, powerwash, then Vinegar, then powerwash, then RODI soak (according to Spotter on RC, this works)
Build existing rock into 1/2 of final structure (using Golden Ratio, I will add more rock for the other half of tank)
Probably add some of the BioSipra stuff or whatever the really nasty smelling stuff is that iiluisii told me about
Wait to make sure tank w/scrubber is performing effective filtration
Add second rock structure
Replace sump, add in skimmer, remove bio-balls a little at a time until LR is fully effective
Remove non-reef-safe fish & sell
Add corals and new fish
Replace lighting

Thus begins Chapter 3 of this tank's life...

[RkyRickstr]

why not just buy new dry rock bud.. thats so much work

[Floyd R Turbo]

1) nice looking dry rock is expensive, and some of their particular pieces are pretty cool looking
2) I have ~500 lb of dried out live rock in my basement which still needs to be nuked anyways
3) to completely ensure that rock is P free, you really need to do this anyways
4) they don't want to buy new rock