New Build with LEDs and questions

[Bilk]

I'm making my first ATS for a 50g cube. Space is limited below and in the sump so I designed a compact scrubber and plan on using these led pucks (http://www.creativelightings.com/Warm-Waterproof-LED-Module-12vDC-6-Piranha-LEDs-p/cl-wp6lmod-12wc-ww.htm?CartID=1) since they're waterproof.

The screen size will be 7"x9" and illuminated both sides. I calculated I will need 12 pucks on each side. Each puck is 4.62watts x 12 pucks = 55.44 watts per side. Each side will have an aluminum reflector. Does anyone see any issues with this design?

[Bilk]

I am not sure I calculated the wattage correctly. Their site isn't very clear about the specs. I'll have to call them tomorrow when they're open. I like the idea of using these pucks as they're waterproof and designed for submersible use. Hopefully they're suitable.

[SantaMonica]

You'd want the red ones...

http://www.creativelightings.com/Red-Waterproof-LED-Module-12vDC-6-Piranha-LEDs-p/cl-wp6lmod-12wc-rd.htm

...looks like they are 0.33 watts each, so a 7 X 9 = 63 square inch screen (at 1/2 watt per inch) would need a total of about 30 LED watts, which would be 15 pucks on each side, which would handle 5+ cubes of food per day. At 1/4 watt per inch, you could try it with 8 pucks per side.

Looks like they also have ribbons...

http://www.creativelightings.com/Ruby-Red-LED-Flex-Strips-12v-WP-300-Meter-p/cl-frs5050ip68dd-5m-12v-rd.htm

[Bilk]

Thanks for the reply and assistance. I did consider the red but thought the total color temp was more important. I didn't order yet as I still have questions about their ordering process regarding these leds.

I guess I need to be clear about how to size the screen. I should size it to the amount of food I feed vs the system volume? The system is not yet set up and I don't know how I will stock it other than mostly sps. If my feeding is less, do I need to reduce the size of the screen and thus the amount of light?

[Bilk]

I looked at the ribbon leds but they were much more expensive. The pucks look to be perfect as I can order what I need and the cost is about 1/3rd of the ribbon. I guess they would be perfect for a large ATS.

[SantaMonica]

Yes size it to feeding:

Scrubbers are sized according to feeding. Nutrients "in" (feeding) must equal nutrients "out" (scrubber growth), no matter how many gallons or liters you have. So...

An example VERTICAL upflow or waterfall screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm) with a total of 12 real watts (not equivalent) of fluorescent light for 18 hours a day. If all 12 watts are on one side, it is a 1-sided screen. If 6 watts are on each side, it is a 2-sided screen, but the total is still 12 watts for 18 hours a day. This screen size and wattage should be able to handle the following amounts of daily feeding:

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or
1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or
10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or
5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or
5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or
0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

High-wattage technique: Double the wattage, and cut the hours in half (to 9 per day). This will get brown screens to grow green much faster. Thus the example above would be 12 watts on each side, for a total of 24 watts, but for only 9 hours per day. If growth starts to turn YELLOW, then increase the flow, or add iron, or reduce the number of hours. And since the bulbs are operating for 9 hours instead of 18, they will last 6 months instead of 3 months.

HORIZONTAL screens: Multiply the screen size by 4, and the wattage by 1 1/2. Flow is 24 hours, and is at least 35 gph per inch of width of screen [60 lph per cm], EVEN IF one sided or horizontal.

LEDs: Use half the wattage as above. 660nm (red) is best. You can mix in a little 450nm (blue) if you want.

Very rough screen made of roughed-up-like-a-cactus plastic canvas.

Clean algae off of the screen:

Every 7 to 21 days, or
When it's black, or
When it fills up, or
When algae lets go, or
When nutrients start to rise

[Bilk]

Well after not being able to reach the distributor of the pucks I posted above, these (http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-module-strings/lsmcc-series-constant-current-smd-led-sign-module/980/) are what I am going with in red. They're waterproof and wafer thin and come on strings, allowing for utilizing as many as you need. They should work out pretty well. I'm using 4 puck modules on each side of a 6"x6" screen.

Edit: After doing some calculations and utilizing the spread sheet, I upped the number of led pucks to 8 per side with a 6x7 screen. I'll post pics of the final product.

[Floyd R Turbo]

A good rule of thumb though is that if there is no heat sink needed, they are not intense enough. So if you're going to use them - pack them in as tight as you can, and maybe they will work. but likely not as effectively as 1W or 3W on stars. Just saying.

[Bilk]

A good rule of thumb though is that if there is no heat sink needed, they are not intense enough. So if you're going to use them - pack them in as tight as you can, and maybe they will work. but likely not as effectively as 1W or 3W on stars. Just saying.
LOL just happened to be perusing the site and saw your post come thru.

Well they will be about 1" from the screen both sides. They seem really bright for what they are. According to the specs, each puck is 75 lumens and a string of 4 is 6.7 watts. With 8 pucks per side that's 600 lumens and 13.4 watts. I think that's equivalent to a 9watt CFL on each side.

Well if it doesn't work, I'm buying one of your L2s :)

[Bilk]

Has anyone considered utilizing two screens, each illuminated from one side. Start on screen off a few days ahead of the second, this way cleaning is staggered and the scrubber keeps working as intended?

Is there a benefit to this where export remains higher than always starting off with a clean screen?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Wow...timing...is this what you're talking about?

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2595-Reasoning-against-dual-screen-builds

[Bilk]

I finished the enclosure and did a dry fit in the sump. It looks good. Just hope it works as well as it looks :) I just need to install the LEDs tomorrow.

I cut the slot in the pipe using a multitool as my table saw is in my self storage and didn't feel like lugging it out just for one cut. The slot is clean, but just a bit wider than 1/8". It's 5/32". I hope the 1/8" isn't critical or I guess I'll cut another section of pipe.

Overall I'm happy with the design. I provided an emergency overflow in case the screen get's filled and blocks the flow. I plan on filling the tank tomorrow as I already did a water test on the system and ran a vinegar/water solution to clean everything of solvents and to wash out the system. I'll tape the slot to see if the overflow works as intended.

Here's some pics of the ATS and the rest of the tank and system. The tank is 50g with a net system water volume of about 55g (tank holds 45 and sump will run about 10). Tunze 9011 skimmer, ATO, dosing pump for 2 part, Kessil A350 Tuna Blue led, two Vortech MP10s and everything controlled by a Neptune Apex controller. Stand/cabinet made by yours truly. It's American black walnut.

Looking forward to getting things up an running and growing lots of GHA in my scrubber :)

Oh one question. Should I cycle the tank with the scrubber running a screen or not?


http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00110.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00114.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00111.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00106.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00108.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00109.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00107.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00105.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00084.jpg

A pic of the tank in it's early stages and before it went south.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/FTS13.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

I am in awe of that stand. Wow.

It looks overflow-fed, right? Is that why you have the relief pipe on the other end?

My comment about that is that it will not allow for head pressure to build up on the slot. You will quickly discover that you will have a lot of flow bypassing the scrubber. I know from experience.

You don't have to worry about algae clogging the slot. You only have to worry about something going down the overflow pipe and getting snagged on the screen (if your screen is inserted all the way into the slot pipe). This is the primary purpose for a bypass. If your screen is only inserted into the slot such that is barely pokes up into it, anything that goes down the overflow and doesn't block the pipe before it gets to the screen will get pushed to the end of the pipe. So your primary concern is to provide an alternate flow path before the scrubber, not after.

Like this

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/00%20Algae%20Scrubbers/Misc/BypassSump.jpg

or this

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/00%20Algae%20Scrubbers/Misc/Bypass.jpg

With your setup, you don't have much space. So I would tee into the drain line and extend your bypass as high as you can get it inside the cabinet, then into an open siphon-free tee and down to the sump.

Still I think you may have issues with head pressure. If you sufficiently strain the overflow and don't insert the screen into the pipe such that it touches the top inside of the slot pipe, then you eliminate the blockage issue.

[Floyd R Turbo]

The other way to prevent algae growth into the slot is to block light from the slot, 100%.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh one question. Should I cycle the tank with the scrubber running a screen or not?

Cycle tank with scrubber

Also what is that connector device you use? Looks like a quick-disconnect?

[Bilk]

Hi Bud. Thanks for the reply. Yes the tank is drilled with one supply and return inside the overflow at the rear. No room for a second sump return. I'm not sure I see the difference between putting the emergency relief before or after the scrubber and yes it's tight quarters down there LOL Cubes look nice, but the cabinet space for the sump is a bummer. A 50g rectangular tank has a better footprint for housing the sump and associated equipment.

I'm going to give it a go this way. It's all interchangeable so if I have an issue, I'll have to mod it. Doing as you suggest in the second diagram is also kind of tough because of the space. If I find there's a lot of water bypassing the scrubber, I'll put a valve on the emergence release and throttle it back to put more head pressure on the scrubber.

How about the slot dimension? It was late last night when I cut it. It's a bit larger than 1/8". The multitool is perfect for cutting that slot. I just needed to be more awake LOL

[Bilk]

Yeah they're generally used for medical purposes I believe. (3/4" In-Line Hose Barb HFC 35 Series Polysulfone Coupling Body - Shutoff) They're fully open when connected and shut once you pull it. You can get them in various sizes and either open or shut on either end (male/female) when disconnected. I'm trying them out. My wet test shows they have good flow. Hopefully they don't clog too much over time. That will just be another maintenance thing I guess, but it makes it easy to pull the scrubber and pump for servicing/cleaning without having to deal with the hose clamps.

[Bilk]

The other way to prevent algae growth into the slot is to block light from the slot, 100%.
Ah yeah. I can make some fins that project down from the pipe and to either side of the slot using grey polystyrene sheet material and plastic weld them on.

[Bilk]

It's alive! Ahh hahahahahaha!

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00121.jpg

Cut slots for the pipe so I can just pull it to clean the screen.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00122.jpg

[Bilk]

Just wanted to post a pic comparing the two different plastic screens I found. Not sure what everyone is using, but I chose to use the one on the left with the smaller holes. My reasoning was it has more surface area yet allows water and light to pass through, it's actually more translucent which helps light transfer and it's easier to rough up the surface. I used a multitool with the sanding attachment and 80 grit paper. I also used a wire wheel attached to a drill after to provide some additional scoring of the surface. The result I obtained was a velvet like finish, which seems to be optimal for binding GHA to the surface. Kind of like the fuzzy surface of velcro. I'll post results once it starts producing or not :) algae.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00124.jpg

[Bilk]

The tank has just about finished cycling. I cleaned the screen once prior. It was just a brown film algae with some small green patches. This is a pic of the first meaningful screen cleaning. You'll notice the center of the screen is not where the real green stuff wants to grow. Can this be due to the leds being too strong and focused in this area? The better growth is above and below where the light hits directly. Do the leds need to be further from the screen? Presently they're 1.5" from the screen surface. These are the "puck" style leds with 4 diodes per puck. They're not supposed to be very powerful, but maybe they're more than enough :)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/31313atscleaning.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Just let it grow more days next time. Maybe the puck have good power.

[Bilk]

Just let it grow more days next time. Maybe the puck have good power.

Ok will do :) It was 10 days since the first cleaning - I think LOL Now I'm logging everything on my iPad using ReefKeeper Pro, since I'll never remember when I last cleaned it.

[Bilk]

This is the growth after another ten days. Not sure what's influenced the better/more growth. Maybe just a break in period? I made two changes during this period within the last ten days. First I added a carbon reactor to the system running BRS Rox. Next I have been including kalkwasser in the top off water. Not a saturated solution - 1tsp/gal vs 2tps/gal, which is supposed to produce a saturated solution. The net effect on the water parameters is an increase of ph from a range of 8.1 - 8.25 or so to a range of 8.35 to 8.45 or a little higher. No livestock in the tank other than a good sized cleanup crew so I'm not too concerned with experimenting with the ph levels.

Other than the aforementioned changes, I have not made others yet. I plan on modest carbon dosing down the road to see what effect this has on things.

Oh the pic :) Get the same growth on both sides of the screen. I'm letting it go for another few days before cleaning, to see what happens to the growth.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o34/bilk22/Reef%20Tank/Reef%20Tank/DSC00182.jpg

[Bilk]

Realized I never posted the correct link to the LEDs I used for this build. So here it is. I used 6 of the red pucks per side. LSMCC series Constant Current SMD LED Sign Module (http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-module-strings/lsmcc-series-constant-current-smd-led-sign-module/980/2396/)

The specs for the pucks posted earlier in the thread didn't seem as good as these.