View Full Version : 180g Show Tank

03-31-2013, 08:32 PM
180g show ( lit by 6 Radion Gen 1 + TIR reflector upgrades & 2 DIY UV LED strips ) w/ 60g fleet farm tub that serves as both sump and frag tank ( anywhere between 150-400 frags at one time lit by 2 27" Razor LEDs ).


Additional Pics from my March 19 TCMAS meeting I hosted: http://nicholb.smugmug.com/Aquariums.../308600_VJdKVB

ATS screen size is 18" X 12" lit both sides 16 hours per day via 4X24" 3000k T5 HOs with parabolic reflectors. ( I dabbled with 21 LEDs per side 17 Red/ 4 blue for a while but went back to T5s after about 6months ) Fed directly from herbie standpipe. Return pump is Panworld 100 ( approx 600-650gph after head loss ).

No skimmer, quit cold turkey the day the ATS went online in Jan. 2012.

Feed 4-5 times a day with heavy fish load ( 37 fish total: 8 tangs, 4 wrasses, 10 green chromis, 8 kupang damsels, 2 clowns, 2 flame angels, 1 coral beauty, 1 copperband, longnose hawkfish )

Total water change per month = 5 X 50g bags of Instant Ocean ( 1.25 boxes per month ). I have gone 2 weeks per water changes occasionally and noted no accumulation of nitrate/phosphate during the time period so I could get by with less if I wanted to but as you will see from the description the water changes fit well with my export of detritus routine so I stick with it.

My tank is about as sterile looking as possible for a reef tank. Not a stich of algae in the show can't even grow much coralline algae. Every so often a might see a tiny patch of cyano in low flow areas of the sump.

Parameters are pretty consistant now:

Nitrates near undectable with salifert between 0 - .1 ppm
Phosphates .06 - .08 ppm.
I strive for near 7dkh Alkalinity. 400 ppm calcium , 1280ppm Mag. Levels may drift a little higher sometimes but never lower.

CA/ALK maintained by Kalkwasser via a dosing pump. Mg maintained using Randy's Magnesium Chloride & Sulphide recipe. I do add 1 cup of Randy's 2 part Ca Chloride to freshly mixed I/O. Occassionaly will add Mg to IO as well. I don't use 2 part for any daily.

Weekly Maintenance ( Total time about 1 hour worth of work ):

Water change. 1 full 50g bag of instant ocean @ 35ppt. Estimate it at 40g usuable.

Siphon the entire show tank substrate during each water change.

1/2 cup of Rox .8 carbon per week in a reactor ( Helps with odor and water clarity ). I went the first 10 months without running carbon.

Scrap the front glass 2-3 times a week just a very light dusting. Back glass once a week. After 1 week time the back glass is my barometer. If just a dusting enough to see the snail marks then I know I'm on target. If its darker green I know my parameters are likely off a little.

Blow detritus from all rocks in show tank 2-3 times a week and always just prior to water change.

Clean 1 side of ATS per week. Usually harvest about 1.75 - 2.25 cups worth of algae per week.

Iron ( 2 dissolved fergon tablets in 100ml of ro water ) dose 20ml just after ATS screen cleaning. No other additives/supplements.

Monthly ( about 1 additional hour of work on top of the weekly ):

Completely drain and clean the ATS.

Completely drain sump/frag and sucking up all detritus with the shop vac. Includes an additional 40g water change to fill it back up in addition to the weekly. All frags are on racks from Rays Reef that fit in a 5g bucket. I stack 2-3 high. Loose frags are put in a 20L during the process.

04-01-2013, 06:51 AM
David your 180g looks great! Man I must have to step up the water changes. Also why do you strive for 7dkh alk and not a higher level. As many report better growth with it up a little higher.

04-01-2013, 01:03 PM
WOOW nice tank, realy nice tank

04-01-2013, 05:45 PM
No complaints on growth. Back when I ran large skimmer and low nutrient methods anything much higher than 8dkh would cause tissue recession on acro bases. So I keep between 7-8dkh. No clue if still necessary with ATS filtration and no carbon dosing or gfo. More of a "Ain't broke don't fix it attitude at the moment".

Instant Ocean generally runs about 10-11dkh so it will always drift higher right after a water change but gradually back down near 7-7.5dkh by the end of the week.

04-01-2013, 07:53 PM
Very nice.

04-22-2013, 03:08 PM
That is something else dude. It is good to see such a wonderful setup maintained without all the other chemicals people say you need. I am dosing calc, kh and mag at the moment and using a good salt to replace trace elements with a 5-10% change a week. As i am growing all sps from frags, i am seeing a small amount of growth, but seeing routines like this gives a bit of reassurance.
You must be very proud of the this setup!

04-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Great looking tank! I wish I had the space for something like this.

09-09-2013, 08:59 AM
I have the same size tank I just setup , your rock work is awesome !

09-09-2013, 09:26 PM
Thanks it looks more open in full tank pictures than it does in real life ( since your usually standing with your face stuck to the glass ) but still lots more swimming room by design than your typical reef setup.

I need to get a 6 months progress shot up. Tanks still looks great, some coral placement tweaking since this shot taken but for the most part it's just grown in a bit more.

Since the pic was taken I have added a 60L X 24W X 12H rimless glass frag tank to the system and is now pretty much full with close to 700 frags in it. This is in addition to the 60g sump that also used as frag tank that can also hold up to 400. Mostly common stuff the I either sell for store credit or sale real cheap ( but make up for it in quantity ) at our local frag swaps. All of which are clippings from my show tank or pieces that I no longer have room for in display but keep to frag. None of it is corals that are simply purchased and just chopped up, everything is grown out in my system.


With the larger frag tank and fish growing creating more bioload, I've had some phosphate levels creap up. For the first 14 months or so about the max reading would be .06-.08 but now it reaches .2ppm if left unchecked. I did some tweeking ( just 2 weeks ago so to early to tell if its working ) by enlarging the ATS screen from 18" Long to the full 24" long ( the enclosure was built with this possibility in mind ), increased the flow to accomidate the larger screen ( I went with a larger external pump that also doubles as flow for the frag tank ). I use 24" T5s so didn't have to increase light for extra coverage since was already using them. Hopefully it will increase harvests but for now do have to run some GFO as a supplement. Couple of other things I'm going to try as well before tearing down the ATS and building a larger one. For example: may swap the T5 ballast with an icecap/coralvue to increase light, also toying with the idea of adding the ceramic biomedia to my overflow that feeds the ATS to try to increase nitrate to directly feed the ATS ( not sure if that will do much but cheap and easy to try ).

Even with the show tank and all the frags, I still have no trouble with using kalkwasser for all my CA/Alk supplement needs. No two part or CA reactor used. Just kalkwasser and sometimes even still alk levels get a little too high and have to back off.

12-01-2013, 09:34 PM
Good morning

What a beautiful DT.

Please could you post a pic or two of your Filter system. specifically your Algae scrubber.

05-07-2014, 04:20 PM
Update. 28 months since going skimmer free just water changes, ATS, and 1/2 cup of carbon per week. Tank is doing awesome. I get a slight brown on the sandbed towards the end of the week after siphoning it takes about 3 days for it to show up again, minor nusiance other than that tank has done great.

Sorry Don't have as nice of camera and they turned out pretty blue but you can at least get an idea.




05-07-2014, 08:55 PM
Very nice. Will be our Tank Of The Moment :)

05-08-2014, 05:15 PM
Really a beauty


10-21-2014, 10:33 AM
5 month update, This coming January 2015 will be the 3 year mark of ATS scrubber as main filtration, no skimmer:

I unfortunately lost the nice orange hammer coral during our vacation in August, had to replace it with a metalic orange one until I can get a better piece in the spring. I did a little re-arranging to get the LPS grouped more together, that left the other side mostly acans and zoas. Not sure I like it but will see.

Outside of the orange hammer, no other fish or coral losses. Tank has been doing steller overall. Scrubber does excellent job with my nitrates but the phosphates do start to creep up slowly. For now just add an extra water 40g water change to correct it. Exploring using Lacl3 in a reactor with floss periodically to handle the phosphates, don't plan to use it regularly just when the phosphates start to creep up on the .1 - .12 range when algae/cyano seems to start popping back up. Phosphate levels around .06 - .08 seems to be the sweet spot for my tank combination of decent growth and great colors when kept in that range.

So here is the fluffy side after rearranging:


The "Not so Fluffy" side:


And full tank shot to put it all back in perspective:


Not sure I'll keep it this way, likely will go back to a more even mix to try to keep it a little more balanced looking. Still fun to tinker.

10-21-2014, 10:47 AM
Very nice :)

10-31-2014, 06:11 AM
Sweet tank! Do you have any pics of your scrubber? Do you still have the packed frag tank too?

10-31-2014, 09:53 AM
The link in my signature, click on filtration tab for the scrubber pics/details.

I did repurpose the 5' frag tank, I now use it to house my pond fish in the winter time. Being all glass with lots of surface area just too hard to keep heated in the cool basement during winter the pond fish are fine with room temp water so it's a good fit. 800w of heaters would run 24/7 and still could keep within 2-3 degrees of target with the 5' frag tank + 180g show.

I went back to just using the 60g sump as the frag tank. It still holds 400-500 frags. Instead of growing out any acros/sps in the frag tank, I'm just going to trim and trade/sell as fresh cut at local club meetings.

I am in process of attaching a 29g in wall montipora dominant tank that will be tied to this system. Goal is to have it up and running by Thanksgiving. I have to reroute some electrical lines where the little inwall tank will go so that has slowed down the project.

I recently started using LaCl3 for phosphates. Phosphates are never real bad but slowly over time will creep up to about .1 - .12 and will start getting some cyano here and there and sandbed won't be as clean. I bring it back down around .06 ish with 2mil of LaCl3 diluted in ro/di and slowly added to a 5micron filter to remove the precipitate so it doesn't hurt the fish. Normally when would start to creep up I'd squeeze in an additional 40g water change and that won't be necessary.

03-18-2016, 09:35 AM
Jan was the 4 year anniversary of Algae Scrubber the main filtration. No skimmer.

Here is an updated pic.

Back in April-July 2015 there was an issue that never got identified where Acropora only had very slow recession from the bottom up. Nothing was solving it and most acropora perished over a 3 months period. I tried fragging them and the new frag would then also start to recede. So a number of acros were lost. Rather than trying to replace them, I decided to go with existing corals I already owned that are less sensitive.

I haven't required any GFO, I manage phosphates by regulating food. When test for phosphates and they are rise just back off on the feeding to find the equalibrium between import and exports. I still feed more than most conventional skimmer setups do ( 3-5 times per day ) so it's not a matter of starving the fish.


03-18-2016, 06:36 PM
Still, couldn't be a simpler way of keeping nice corals.

BTW your link is not working.

06-30-2016, 12:15 PM
Update, fixed my website link. Most of the site is updated, still have to add more details to the additives page regarding the Zero water change method I'm using:

Month 53 since ATS as main filtration, no skimmer. Started in Jan 2012. ATS keeps nitrates at near undectable levels, phosphates hover around .06-.08ppm. I can manapulate the phosphate levels some by simply increase or decrease feeding. I still feed way more daily than ever did with a skimmer. For years I haven't messed with any GFO and have no troubles keeping in the .06-.08ppm range but recently I have been playing around with adding 1-2 tablespoon of GFO to my weekly carbon and can easily get to .02 but haven't seen any reason to keep it that low. Tank seems to do best in the .06ppm phosphate range. I have noticed when I do add 1 or 2 tablespoons of GFO to the carbon that is does mess up algae harvest that week so it must be a balance thing with nitrate/phosphate that I am disturbing so I only going to use GFO sparingly and if I see algae issues start to pop up.

Month 15 since going to a near Zero water change philosophy. Started in March 2015. The only water changes have been accidental spillage or trade/selling frags replacement. I estimate that totals less than 40g in the 15months. I use the Triton Tests to monitor elements levels. HW Trace-tip, trace-tip2, miro-tip comercial products as the daily trace element supplements. Kalkwasser still for Alk/CA. Mostly DIY additives to make monthly adjustments to keep all other elements levels in check. Working out quite well. The last Triton test results was earlier this month and everything looking good and within range. Only exception is that sulfate levels have been dropping ( now at 670ppm ) so I'm switching to a Magnesium sulfate (epsom salt ) for Magnesium supplment ( currently its a 7/1 mix of Magnesium Chloride and Magnesium Sulfate ) in hopes that will get sulfate levels back near 900ppm. Other than that, my dosages seem to be right on and will get more accurate as time goes on and more Triton test results. Goal is just 2-3 Triton tests per year. I've done 3 thus far in the first 15months.

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6626&d=1467310150 (http://davidgrigor.weebly.com/updates)

06-30-2016, 03:07 PM
Low maintenance, high happiness :)

09-07-2016, 06:21 PM
Pics from today Sept 7,2016. Tank is doing well. No livestock fish losses or additions. I just rearranged a few corals and moved several smaller pieces back to the frag tank to reduce the clutter on the substrate.

Ready for MACNA:


Full shot without the ugly mug:


09-07-2016, 07:06 PM
That's a beautiful tank. A true testament to the success of natural reef keeping.

I read the entire thread and I might have missed it, but you went from doing a lot of significant water changes to none. What changes did you make when you did that? Do you still vacuum the substrate?

09-07-2016, 08:20 PM
Okay you asked for it, be prepared for a boring read:

Scrubber ( + 1 cup of rox .8 carbon per week ) has proven to keep the nitrates and phosphates in check so water change was not needed for water quality purposes. Because Instant Ocean has slightly elevated strontium and potasium water changes was keeping all trace elements just fine nothing needed but the big 3 alk/ca/mg and iron for the scrubber. I decided in March 2015 to try a variation of the Triton methodolgy ( except don't use Triton 3 part ). Because I am a long term Kalkwasser user and wasn't going to change, plus the amount of Triton 3 part it would require ( about 250+mil per day ) I would be spending about $80 a month on supplements alone. I just couldn't justify that. as water changes was only $50 per month ( I box of Instant Ocean per month, not including ro/di filters to make the water which does add a little cost ). So I decided to use HW brand trace supplements as my base ( Trace-Tip1, Trace-Tip2, Mira-tip ) they cost $60 and last 2.5 months. The rest is DIY recipes as much as possible for magnesium, potassium, iron, silicate, iodine, manganese, molybdenum. I use Triton brand for nickel, zinc, vanadium, and strontium only becuase either hard to source or wasn't any cheaper to find alternative.

It's been going well. I did a Test before starting to find my tank baseline, I did a Triton test on Instant Ocean so I could determine if any higher levels was becuase the salt itself. My first triton test was 8 months later, tweaked by monthly dosages of DIY, testing 4 months leater, refined dosing again. Last test in June was near perfect. Only issue was sulfate had been falling overtime since the beginning. I changed my Magnesium dosages to use magnesium sulfate hoping that will raise my sulfate levels. Next test is in Oct/Nov timeframe and I will have beter idea if magnesium sulfate is raising it. As always will continute refining dosagae to get better and better.

I do scrape the back wall ( always have ) becuase I like the clean look and makes corals contrast better than letting coraline grow. I still siphon the substrate when it looks like it needs it which usually ends up about 3-4 weeks but instead of during a water change and letting the water go down the drain, I just siphon into a diy filter sock back into the sump. Really hardly any maintanance but scrap the ats screen once a week, change 1 cup of carbon once a week. Refill kalkwasser reservoir. I do daily dosages of the HW ( but been known to skip several days just double up to catch back up since they are only trace elements ). Monthly dosages for potassium, silicate, strontium, nickel, zinc, vanadium, molybdenum, manganese.

Worked out well so far. Although 18months is not a long term track record yet. Haven't seen any elements accumulating ( assuming Triton test is accurate - there is debate on that ) to say it won't work long term. ATS been running almost 5 years now so it's definately proven long term to keep water quality in check.

PS: I keep meaning to fully document this on my website, just not quite updated with the details. I do have it documented in the Triton sponsor forum on another site but out of respect will not mention it here.

09-07-2016, 09:16 PM
Thank you for the info. I'm trying to go away from water changes as a "filtration" method myself. In my tank I only run a waterfall scrubber and carbon in a media bag that I change out every two weeks. I also have a spot for filter floss, but I only have floss in it about half the time. I did a 50% water change 3 days ago because I saw cyano in a couple spots on the substrate. Prior to that my last water change was on 6/1 of 20%. My tank is no where near the size or bioload of yours, but so far I'm having pretty good success in both fish and coral.

There are so many trace elements, it's not reasonable to test for them all using kits. I'm currently using a couple drops of the red sea trace supplement's each week. I'm concerned about what is building up and what's being depleted that I'm completely ignorant about. I'm familiar with the Triton testing, I have not done much research into their supplements. Maybe I should just start getting a Triton test twice a year.

Are you still using the fergon tablets?

09-08-2016, 06:40 AM
Like you say for me I'm most worried about accumulation and something becoming toxic. While I'm sure Triton tests aren't perfect and may not detect low levels, the HOPE is that it would at least show accumulation. If I did see anything on the test that look suspect, I won't hesitate to abandon and go back to water changes. Instant Ocean ( despite what others think ) tests are pretty darn good and is still my choice of salt, only needs a bump in mg and ca which is just pennies and a easy repeatable process.

I have enjoyed this experiment though and you really get more in tune with what your tank is using. I have enjoyed the challenge of it. While it may sound like I'm doing it becuase I'm trying to save money and cheap. It isn't so, if I needed I without hesistation would spend the money for me the drive has been the challenge of it and to try something different to keep the hobby from being boring.

Yes, fergon tablets are a mainstay.

09-12-2016, 06:09 PM
Just got back from Macna in San Diego after winning the Neptune Systems 2016 Marine Aquarium Hobbiest of the Year


09-12-2016, 09:58 PM

09-13-2016, 04:35 AM
Very nice :)

09-14-2016, 07:51 AM

10-30-2016, 02:20 PM
Tanks is doing well. No livestock losses since last update. Latest Triton results recieved today. Details can be seen on my website if you want to see the details: http://davidgrigor.weebly.com/updates/latest-triton-results-are-in

Fast approaching on the 5 year anniversary of going skimmerless ( Jan 2012 )


10-30-2016, 04:25 PM
Nice... maybe Neptune can learn from this :)

03-13-2017, 03:55 PM
Passed the 5 year mark in January of Algae Turf Scrubber as main filtration. No skimmer. Just hit the 2 year mark this March of Near Zero water change. Only exports is just 1 cup of carbon weekly, algae harvest, siphon substrate into a filter sock, and a little bit of filter floss. No GFO needed, Algae scrubber keeps phosphates and nitrates at near undetectable. Occasionally phosphates will reach above .08ppm when that happens can usually get it down by slightly reducing feeding or will dose KN03 additive nightly to boost nitrate to around .5ppm to get the phosphates back down. Otherwise nitrates are undetectable using Salifert in high resolution mode.

Full Tank shot from Today:


03-28-2017, 10:18 AM
Been dosing Potassium Nitrate since January. While only 3 months, I'm ready to share my experiences thus far. I've been pleasantly surprised and have exceeded all expectations to this point.

As a Teaser here is the latest tank shot 3/26/2017:

http://davidgrigor.weebly.com/uploads/8/0/0/8/80084198/full-shot-mar26-2017_1_orig.jpg (http://davidgrigor.weebly.com/uploads/8/0/0/8/80084198/full-shot-mar26-2017_1_orig.jpg)


In the past, Nitrates always read non-detectable using Salifert Test kit in high resolution mode. Phosphates will normally hover around .06-.08ppm. When phosphates creep up above .08ppm , I normally would add 2 tablespoons of GFO mixed together with my weekly 1 cup of Rox .8 carbon and packed tightly using filter floss. This would bring it back down. I can get it a little further without GFO into the .02 ppm range by tweaking the amount of food. I'm a heavy feeder so when I say reduce food the fish are still well fed.

Since nitrates have always shown as non-detectable, I decided to give KNO3 dosing a try and see if can get phosphates lower without having the adjust feeding schedules or occasional use of GFO.

When running a ATS and your nitrates are not zero then you may need to make adjustments to your scrubber lighting or flow. If that doesn't resolve then your feeding too much or your ATS is just not sized well enough for your system.


I purchase the Spectracide Stump remover for my initial testing and runs about $7. ​You can buy in bulk for substantial cost savings and I suspect it is higher grade for long term use. I picked up 10lb bag of 99.8% pure from DudaDiesel​. 10lb bag and only use 1/2 cup per gallon of solution this will probably last me a lifetime so I do plan to share with my local club members.

Mix 1/2 cup of KN03 ( Potassium Nitrate ) with 1 Gallon of RO/DI water.

For my system, 60mil of the solution will raise Nitrate to .2 - .5ppm range for my 180g system.

By the end of the ATS ( Algae Turf Scrubber ) light cycle. Nitrates will be back to undetectable levels and Phosphate levels tested using Hanna Checker ULR Phosphorus Checker ( Model HI736) will read 0-1ppb ( < .01ppm ).


Since running ATS for nearly 5 years, coraline algae rarely grows on rocks and never on the glass. Within the first 2 weeks coraline algae was quite noticable on both the rocks and starting to form on the glass.

Coral coloration and expansion. No noticable difference. Never had any complaints on coral coloration prior to dosing and have not seen any noticable difference or pastel colors. I highly suspect corals are still getting some nitrate/phosphate during the day from feeding the tank. When the main tank lights are out and the ATS running it's likely removing all the excess. If I were not feeding daily I might expect to see negative coral reaction.

I do still get the normal diatoms on the glass and throughout the week some diatoms on the substrate. After weekly substrate siphoning its nice and white again. I'm hoping this will lessen overtime.

I haven't noticed an increase in the weekly Algae Harvest, it seems to be about the same amount and consistancy. However, the color of the algae is a much darker green.

At this time it is still a manual dosage of 60mil per day with an occasional skip if I haven't feed as much as normal or just simply forget to. I may automate with dosing pump at some point in future but not until I'm fully comfortable with the results.

03-28-2017, 04:34 PM
Congrats on the 5 year mark, and interesting to see your N dosing results. You can get it also from places like AquariumFertilizer.com

03-29-2017, 07:12 AM
By the end of the ATS ( Algae Turf Scrubber ) light cycle. Nitrates will be back to undetectable levels and Phosphate levels tested using Hanna Checker ULR Phosphorus Checker ( Model HI736) will read 0-1ppb ( < .01ppm ).


10-16-2017, 10:25 PM
How is it going now?

10-17-2017, 08:52 AM
Tank is doing excellent ( knock on wood ). I'm about to send in my next triton test and will post updated pictures when results are in.

Been KNO3 dosing since Christmas time 2016 ( about 11 months ) and that has been the missing link. I can completely control phosphates levels by either tweaking food ( but still feeding alot ) or adding KN03. While I never used much GFO but did add a few teaspoons here and there to keep phosphates in check but haven't had to touch GFO since KN03 dosing.

My mix is 1/2 cup of potasium nitrate mixed in a gallon of ro water. I dose 120mil of that solution per day. By morning all phosphate by the algae ( and possibly some bacteria ) is removed and ready for the next day. Hard to tell from nitrate test kit but will usually read undectable in morning. Dosing raises it about .5 to 1 ppm ( again hard to tell color change but since its about a 16/1 ratio and judging from phosphate readings around .07ppm in the evenings nitrate levels close to 1ppm seems reasonable ). I have a dosing pump for it I just haven't got off my lazy rear and get it automated.

Weekly algae harvest nearly fill up a 1/2 gallon pitcher per week. The algae grows so fast and thick that it's touching the both sides of the enclosure by harvest time ( which is nearly 4" ). The weight alone is so much that I keep having to replace my screen every 2-3months becuase rips holes in it.

One other thing is they say that there is not enough K to really change levels but since I dose around 120mil per day so close to a gallon per 5 weeks, My levels have increased to 430ppm without any K dosing or water waters changes. Which if that is the case is good since my postasium supplement does have chloride in it and I try to minimize adding chlorides so chlorides don't get too out of whack with minimal water changes.

I never notices any color changes or shifts from dosing KN03 from acros as colors have always been good and never pastel. The main thing is I was never able to grow coraline algae on the rocks ( which is good and bad ) now coraline grows everywhere and leather corals are growing much faster ( again good and bad ) as well as zoanthid colonies since adding.

10-17-2017, 01:41 PM
Great to hear. So you are thinking the K or N is the agent?

03-14-2018, 01:04 PM
I hosted Twin City Marine Aquarium Society Last night.

Tank is doing well.

6 years this last January since going skimmerless. ATS is main filtration.

3 Year Anniversary this month of going to a Near Zero Water Change Philosophy ( Basically the Triton method but using DIY additives becuase I am a hard core kalkwasser user and they don't have additives built for that so I make most of my own ).

These shots are just from a phone camera of one of the club members. Thank you Carl.





03-31-2018, 01:23 PM
Really nice to see it developing. Can be the go-to setup for the area.