kcress's Horizontal Ceramic Turf Scrubber

[kcress]

Hello Folks!
In my ongoing effort to nail down a quiet and effective turf scrubber I have built a horizontal unit. It seems to me most people could use a horizontal unit rather than the vertical variety due to the height issues verticals present, for under tank, on-the-sump applications.

My first vertical incarnation,(viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98)), was noisy, splashy, and a pain to clean. I had also used roughed up acrylic as my screen. The acrylic was a problem because, no matter how rough it was, cleaning would invariably strip large sheets of the turf off, right down to bare acrylic. This would make the screen surface very irregular so the falling water would disconnect from the screen and free fall causing much noise and splashing until new turf re-grew from scratch.

This Horizontal scrubber aims to improve several aspects over my original vertical TS:
1) No more falling water - so little or no splashing.
2) Quieter
3) Easier to clean - as it is basically a tray you pick up - no hooking or unhooking a screen from the header pipe.
4) Low profile
5) A more natural effective screen material.

The first four are pretty much self explanatory.

After the pain of my acrylic screen I had to stop and think about turf. I live next to the ocean so I went down and looked at the wild turf. It generally grows on exposed rock surfaces. The rock is porous with many tiny holes all over it. How could I simulate this? Turns out a friend is a major figure in ceramics in my town which is known for ceramics. Putting our heads together we came up with a way to to make a ceramic tray that is very porous.

So we made a tray out of clay with thousands of holes in it and a few hundred grooves down the face. We dried and fired it. It is, of course, unglazed.

I routed a face out of my original TS and laid it over. It's sitting directly on the tank's plastic surround ledge. I also put a drain pipe out to the tank on the opposite end from the water input side. I have some pendant lights that hang over my fuge. For the moment I have just commandeered them as they happen to be very easy to just swing over and drop into the top of my HZTS. Eventually when I get things working to my satisfaction I will switch to a custom LED light source to avoid the cost of burning thru a bunch of fluorescent bulbs.

Here is the overall view:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/u4b71jdzcz.jpg

The ceramic screen: (Note the many little holes!)
http://www.box.net/shared/static/7qlf707hxx.jpg

The flow:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/b0929qveuq.jpg

The present temporary lighting:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/6d7ffdjfps.jpg

It has been running one day.

[SantaMonica]

Very neat. Ceramics (and cement) do make a great attaching surface!

[kcress]

After staring at my screen for several days -willing it to start growing- I was starting to get some trepidation about something being wrong. Then overnight the growth has leapt forward!! Kind of amazing. Yesterday there was nothing visible at all. Possibly the feeling that the screen was looking less bright but nothing visible. Then today!

6th DAY

http://www.box.net/shared/static/qqmrc3954f.jpg

[rainerfeyer]

I like your idea about using ceramic!

I have been playing with the idea of using cement, maybe a 3/8 underlayment (used when tiling floors). Will see how you progress and possibly follow suite.

Great job!

Rainer

[kcress]

Not a bad idea!
You could saw the stuff up to whatever dimensions you need.

A main point here is to leave a place for the turf to hang onto that I can't actually scrap off. The grooves. Could you trowel on some sort of surface with a deep triangular toothed tool?
Hmmm, what could you trowel on?

[kcress]

Eighth day.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/0oynjika0f.jpg


The lights are 16 ON 8 OFF, two 19W CFL flood lights, 3" above the screen.

What do you think? Too slow?

When should I first clean?

[SantaMonica]

Looks fine.

[rainerfeyer]

Looking at the cement underlayment I had at home, it appears pretty porous. I think it will work as is. Will try this once my current prototype of a vertical is completed.

I spoke to my sister in law yesterday, who does a little pttery as a hobby, about making a ceramic plate as you are using here, but she was adenmant that it can not be done without glazing which then would defeat the purpose. How did you make your ceramic plate?

Rainer

[kamikaze_fish]

I really like your design and how you're doing it. My only question, and this is my question for most that I see, is since you have to pull it out once a week to clean it, how easily does it pull out? With lights right above and it looks like it's almost hooked underneath the plumbing, it just looks like a lot of trouble.

[kcress]

Looking at the cement underlayment I had at home, it appears pretty porous. I think it will work as is. Will try this once my current prototype of a vertical is completed.

I spoke to my sister in law yesterday, who does a little pttery as a hobby, about making a ceramic plate as you are using here, but she was adenmant that it can not be done without glazing which then would defeat the purpose. How did you make your ceramic plate?

Rainer

When you make pottery your first firing is called a bisque firing and essentially makes the pottery. Then you glaze this material and re-fire it. The glaze provides the water proofing.

In our case we don't care if it's water proof. In fact not being water proof equals being rough, which we want!

[kcress]

I really like your design and how you're doing it. My only question, and this is my question for most that I see, is since you have to pull it out once a week to clean it, how easily does it pull out? With lights right above and it looks like it's almost hooked underneath the plumbing, it just looks like a lot of trouble.

You are correct in that the single most important aspect of a (working) turf scrubber is the ease of cleaning. You need to think about that and deal with it in your design or it will haunt you. That will lead to you not cleaning it as often as required, and ultimately it's lack of ability for you tank.

On this present one (above) it is trivial. The lights are existing pendants that I have just swung over and dropped into my TS. I just pick them up and let them re-hang where they wanted to which is off to either side. Then I reach in and pick up the ceramic tray. I hold it at a steep angle for a few moments to drip off, then walk away to the sink with it. Very easy!

[kamikaze_fish]

I really like your design. It looks simple enough. Simple is good.

[zoa]

Remember my thread about this material?? I started mine in December of this year. I removed all the pics from my photo acount as the album was getting to big.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89)

Here is a new pic of the tile I bought at lowes for 80 cents.
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo300/pentair/P9010031.jpg

Here is a shot of it as of tonight after a cleaning.
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo300/pentair/P9010028.jpg

It will need at least 1 layer of screen material or when you clean it it will scrape off too much. That is if your ribs are as deep as mine are. I broke the current tile after drilling it (succesfully) and putting in push pins to attach the screen material. I broke it pushing in the last pin. The two halfs are now held together by zip ties. I am building a replacement as I type. I found some plastic sheet at work and I am going to add two layers to the one I am going to transfere. I have another tile but I don't want to risk breaking it too. I suppose if I drill the holes a couple thou bigger the issue wont be so big.

[kcress]

Your tiles had me thinking.. That's why I went with ceramic.

My grooves are much deeper and I have zillions of holes in mine so I am hoping the turf won't come off.
I want to avoid plastic as I don't think it's really very good. It works but not as well as mother nature does it in the wilds.

We shall see since my turf isn't cranked up much yet. I need more light.. <sigh>

As soon as I get the time I'm moving a MH over my turf.

[zoa]

It only makes sense right? I had the same thought on where does this stuff grow in the wild? That is why I chose the tile. One with a unglazed back.

It would seam that we are bouncing a bit of info off each other here as, after reading your thread last night. I started thinking, and there is a guy at work who does ceramics. I am going to ask him about making a tile with the more porous surface silimar to yours.

On the light, Mine got started with just a 9 watt bulb. It was changed out for the 23 watter but I have gone down again in size. I am running a 15 watt bulb now. Both the 9 and the current 15watt bulbs are the "daylight" bulb. I think they are 6000-6500K. I know that it isn't the "standard" but, it works for me.

I am thinking of changing the on-off times. Since my timer will do 6 settings, I think I want to have a 3on-3off or somthing like that. I have only contimplated the idea not the times. I am only thinking of this because it would seam per santa monica the basic 12or16 on is just that. A more usfull lighting schedual is avalible. IDK.

My new tank will also be a scrubber tank and I am working on another way to mimic turffs natural habitate. Part of it is done, the other part is a bit tricky.

[kcress]

Sounds good! Not much light! But wait that's 15W of CFL on a single tile? I guess that's actually quite a bit..

[zoa]

Maybe, my tile is just about 8x9.

Well I talked with the guy at work and he very polightly shot me down. He doesn't want anything to do with making or even firing a tile if I make it. Oh well. I will look else where I guess. I am going to check with the tile shop just down the street from me. I am pretty sure they do custom tiles on site there.

What clay did you use for your tile?
How long did you fire it for? and what temp?

Thanks.

[kcress]

I had a local guy do the tray so I am not sure what clay he used. Nothing special though. I'm actually not sure what he fired it at either.

I would not go a tile place. Go to a pottery place. Most every town has something along those lines. Find a worker who will do it for you. Bring a sketch with maximum dimensions you can use. There is an issue with shrinking clay as it dries and its unpredictability. So don't demand something that is a particular size or they will get very skittish. It is essentially impossible to get right the first few times and no one will want to help you.

You could also go to the local high school ceramics instructor. Offer them something for there time too. ;)

[rainerfeyer]

Hmm,

I am going to try and cut myself a couple of squares of cement board (underlayment) this weekend and use regular portland to make 3 sided lips. If it works, I will post a pic. I hope there is nothing in this cement board which will be toxic; I would imagine all that is in there is fiber mesh and portland.

The material is pretty darn porous, and, cheap!

Rainer

[kcress]

My understanding is that you are supposed to pickle concrete for a few months before using it in a tank. If I remember correctly it leaches something.. Phosphorous? Don't recall.

Might I suggest, that instead, you saw the side strips and just epoxy them or silicon them on.

[zoa]

My first thought was to use the CBUs but I chickened out as I just wasn't sure about the possiblity of it containing some sort of mold inhibitor. Also as mentioned, I would treat it as if it were DIY rock due to the possible PH issues it could cause.

Just be carefull. Make sure you cover your back side before you place a CBU in your tank. I can tell you the Hardi backer board is just out of the question. It is printed on there clear as day about mold inhibitors.

kcress;

Yea I never thought about trying to find a potter that might give it go for me. I am sure it would be a lot cheaper. I also thought about just making my own like the DIY rock. Just make a flat piece. I really like mrwilson method of making DIY rock.

[rainerfeyer]

thank you for the words of caution

I would have never thought of it containing Mold Inhibitor, but it makes obvious sense! I will check into it.

I thought that the curing of cement was a question of pH reduction, but you could be right about the phosphorous - I'll do a search.

Nice to have all of your thinking brains to draw from!!!

Rainer

[rainerfeyer]

You saved my day!

I checked: what I have is DuraBoard which is Mold resistant!

Back to the drawing board,

thanks!

Rainer

[kcress]

Horizontal Update:

Strange mutterings..

The growth proceeded as I expected but slowly under my punny old CFLs, until the entire screen was covered with very dark, thin algae. Then about the 15th day spots started to appear in the uniform covering of very very dark green(almost black) algae. The next day there were hundreds of these poke-ah-dots. In the center of each there seemed to be some lighter green hair algae. Sort of like islands around Luis Pasture's penicillin spores. I wondered if this new growth was running off the previous growth? I left it so see what would happen.

Well after a few more days the ceramic just started looking like it was self cleaning. A great majority of the dark algae was just leaving. Closer inspection showed that just under the CFL spots there was a slimy green algae unlike the dark stuff. The retreat continued.

Time to up the lights. I moved a 90W Metal Halide over the scrubber today.

I am also wondering if something in the ceramic is making the algae leave town.. Not sure.

Anyway here's two shots after the MH was added. You can see the greenish circle under where the last CFL was located.

The MH has a pretty intense hot spot which I will use to gauge the correct amount of light needed since the hot spot will probably too bright.
The experiment continues.


With MH the colors you see are perfect! The brightness is low in these pictures - probably 1/2 of what is perceived directly.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/e1s7tlx0le.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/8ip75a7tbi.jpg

[zoa]

Your tile is showing the same type of growth mine did. I did however clean half at a time every week. So I never noticed a recession on mine. After a while the turff started to show up.

[AlgaeNator]

like those Ghetto reflectors in the early shots! ahhaa

Hiya spunk!

anni here... read a LOT of posts about this topic last night.. thanks for turning me onto it!

Built my first scrubber today.. need a few more parts to complete which I will pickup tomm.

I am thinking seriously about ditching my skimmer once my setup matures..

I will post some pix.. I had som extra plastic peg/board lying around and figured I would give that a go...

I am powering mine from the overflow off one of my standpipes (might be two shortly)

As for the ceramic...Only downside I would think was only being able to light ONE side of those materials vs both sides.. reducing area by 1/2?

Still yu getting good growth it appears on one side?

prolly still works just fine and is more like nature... i was looking at your later posts with the halides, and spotting issues..

I am wondering if you are BLEACHING out the algae with TOO much light/heat/UV off the fixture and thus the blotching look?

Might want to back off the distance on the MH fixture see if you even out with the growth... You might just be cooking everything thus it peels off and leaves the surface of the ceramic, because of too much light and residual UV.?

[kcress]

Welcome to the forum AlgaeNator Anni!! Wait no further!

Update - A month and a few days. (These are 1024 wide pics. The wider your page the more you will see. It's weird you can't seem to scroll them.}

Here it is before cleaning. It's interesting to note that the light is a circular pattern and that the very brightest center has less growth. The lighting is metal halide 90W 16 inches above the screen.
Note also that where there is virtually no water motion in the right two corners there is zero growth.
I am also disturbed to note that as the turf builds it is totally stagnating the flow directly over it. This is a horizontal TS issue I hadn't realized was so dominant.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/edfxzl83l4.jpg


Here's the screen stood on edge. I'm letting it drain. During this short wait I realized there were a lot of BIG pods running around on it. I tried to photo them but cannot actually find them on the photos. The photo is plenty clear enough. Where's Waldo?

http://www.box.net/shared/static/2iy6yyofyg.jpg


I would estimate there are 6 kinds of algae growing on my screen. I only want Turf though. I believe some of them get a grip and this delays the turf as they are kind of slimy(bright yellow). The central 'pile' in this picture is the actual turf you want. See the tiny cylindrical stalks? That's it. Now, off to the sink for a thorough cleaning.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/gquoimzj82.jpg

Here it is cleaned. I used my fingers then went back with a toothbrush focusing on all the non-turf algae.
Notice I removed the elbows where the water was coming out. This seemed to up the surface motion a lot. Unfortunately It increased the micro splattering dramatically. Since this picture, I taped some 2 inch acrylic walls on the two sides and even They have splatters clear up to their tops. That means splatter is reaching about 6 inches above the screen in this horizontal delivery. Dang.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/tizlszfx2x.jpg

[kcress]

BTW AlgaeNator. Start a thread in here and show us your scrubber and how it progresses. Mine seem to take a while compared to others. Once mine get up to speed they seem really robust. Not sure how long it should really take.

[AlgaeNator]

yours looks good so far.. good job looks like yu have several types of GOO on there! lo...

Yea I moved immediately today to start fabricating mine...should work nicely... and Thanks for the tip on these scrubbers.. Great threads great topic, I think this is just what the DR. ordered for my tank!

I even cleaned the FRONT of my tank today really well, in honor of the start of my first scrubber.. that way I can document how it works....be glad to share how it works out...before after etc...

Hey BTW, how you like my name? lol....

As for documentation, I would be glad to give photos of my progess.. but...I think it would be hard to get a solid "mean" figure on what is "normal" time for these things to get up to mature and start scrubbing. EVeryone's water volume, feeding, PH, and NITRATE/ite, levels are diff...not to mention the MATERIALS you use to scrub with and LIGHTING of course..... (plastic, ceramic, etc) and tanks quality of water will all be different. Even the WATER that you make up your TANK with, could effect this as well. Some people may have really CLEAN R0 water and lower nutrient levels in their systems from the start, which means longer times for the scrubbers to mature. Also feeding habits and bio load and critters in the tank, and type of lighting could ALL effect the time it takes for a scrubber to start "maturing" I would think... Very similar to how a skimmer takes to "cure" its different for everyone.

I will post some pix next few days of mine... I came up with a pretty simple design that should work nicely, VERY simple design that should work well. be easy to clean and remove etc.. I need to complete it with a few more parts i will get for it tomm.. need to pick up some PVC at OSH to complete it.. I had some pretty thick PVC board about 1/8" perforated pegboard I have used somewhere a few years back, so I will try that.. I am doubling it up using two 10"x 17" sheets should work OK.

I decided to use my overflow flow to power mine since it means one less pump in the system.. I split my flow using my standpipes so its no problem now for me I have half my flow (about 450gph) going to the new scrubber.

LIke I said i am tempted down the road to dump my skimmer and add ANOTHER scrubber inside the skimmer area which is fed by the OTHER standpipe. I figure I will do it once i have ONE mature scrubber going. interested in any feedback on this topic too!

Very interesting stuff these scrubbers.. I asked SM about going skimmerless and also read Bornemans (sp) post about skimmerless tanks.. I am leaning towards dumping skimmer since I have always thought it is STRIPPING my volume of necessary nutrients and additives just to add O2 and remove other nasties is not worth the cost.

My main concern was losing Aeration of the volume when removing the skimmer. Saltwater (esp higher temps) does NOt hold O2 very well.. and I think animals can suffer from lower dissolved 02 in volume.. (get lethargic) But today I increased the vinyle tubing in my standpipes and it REALLY increased flow and AIR/WATER mix.. so I feel comfortable removing skimmer since the pipes are adding a great deal of 02 now and the scrubber would remove the nasties.

[SantaMonica]

Kcress... you have a clear case of algae burn. Too much light, too little flow. That's why the algae is thick under the pipes... more flow. So move the light away, or reduce the hours or the watts. Also, the reason there is no growth at the bottom corners is because you are losing your laminar (thin) flow... it all piles up at the bottom and is no longer thin.

[AlgaeNator]

also if you look at the flow with your design, its on the EDGES due to placement of the supply pipes.. entering on each side.. so due to this, the center will NOT get as much flow, as well as being "bleached" by the Halides most likely burning the algae and removing it, I guess it makes sense the middle is "burned" due to lesser flow and increase light?... just an observation, I am by NO means expert when it comes to these things...just some observations based on other screens I have seen. It might be you had the 90s on there the bulk of the time and STILL experienced the center "burn", which would seem to make the lighting the culpret as SM said.. and I would tend to agree.

Notice you said u removed the 90s in the latest pics? No sure that accomplishes a more even spread.. maybe less and increased splash effect?

Seems to me the 90s would allow you point the flow more towards the center where it might be diminished without them, due to the flow coming from each side vs evenly distributed across, if you did it with say with the slot/bar method.. you are rather supplying flow from each SIDE.. expecting the flow to "fan out" from there,

I would think reinstalling the 90s would do a few things, cut down on splashing and also the inward pointed in 90s should help spread the flow more towards the center.I would think you might be better served introducing them again?

I just finished watching SM YouTube video of cleaning his scrubber.. the mesh was COMPLETELY and evenely covered and when he cleaned the center portion with a RAZOr BLADE it did NOT come COMPLETELY off in cleaning, thus revealing the surface.. it was securely attached and took a razor to cut it down but NOT remove it. Not sure if this is due to being more mature, or just his "turf" was able to better attach to his surface and lighting was correct?

All assumptions on my part of course... just my 2cts.

[kcress]

Thanks for the thoughts AlgaeNator. (Yes good name. :D )

Thanks too SantaMonica for the continued assist.

Nator your water flow comments are interesting. But, it's very hard to photo flow of a clear liquid. I think the flow is more uniform all across the screen without the ells. But the splashing! It's really too much.


OK AlgaeNator. For you. I put the elbows back, but I added something. I put nipples in the outlets to bring down the release right to the screen surface. Then I cut scallops in them to project the water more onto the screen. Then I doubled the flow. She's wide open Cap'tin and I can't gets n'more. See details of this in the pictures. There is serious motion now everywhere except those two bottom corners because the screen is actually submerged there.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/sfxad10uqr.jpg

For SM I have essentially doubled the light height. I am starting to wonder as the light is not as bright as the sun anymore like wild turfesses receivesses in the wildesses. But I do concede no wild turf gets brightly lit for 18 hours a day.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/7nh1yczn9k.jpg

Close up of the output flow. Notice too, the valve to the left. (wide open)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/ceocdhhtby.jpg

[SantaMonica]

If your screen starts growing in the middle again, you can start lowering the light slowly. The more flow you have, the stronger the light can be.

[kcress]

Roger that SM!

[kcress]

After cleaning again.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/62cey2kfb4.jpg

I'm always amazed by how slow my turf starts out. This is about 2 months in.
This is in water that has a 10pp (t) of nitrates.

[AlgaeNator]

Kcress,

I have an idea for your nozzles.. dump the 90s.. and run them straight in..and use 3/4" Locline FAN Nozzles on the end of a locline ball fitting.

You might need to redesign the section where the PVC splits, just after the union before it hits your box and possibly the box intake locations itself.. to make the pipes enter the box CLOSER to center, and or possibly LOWER.. as the fans will spread flow out each side of the nozzle and your intakes are too close to the edge as is and a bit high for this idea its better to have two intakes CLOSER to center..

U may also want to Lower them a bit or raise the ceramic so the gap between the nozzles is less.. and they basically spray across the top of the ceramic plate VS pouring out on to it. U can do this witha short section of locline itself.

Reduce them to 3/4", install a 3/4" Locline Ball, install a 3/4" Locline FAN nozzle (to spread flow) on the end of each sides of input. angle them to center, and LOWER them down.. ie.. point them DOWN CENTER along angle of ceramic plate vs splacing ON the plate.. in other words Lower them down to point more parallel (downward) to the angle of the ceramic plate..

Instead of lowering the intakes you might RAISE the angle of the ceramaic plate itself.. but sill prolly need to move the two intakes closer to center as they enter the box.

This will get you nice even flow at great VOLUMES which will splash even less?

http://www.nautilusreef.com/assets/images/spuck_algae_top.jpg

http://www.nautilusreef.com/assets/images/spuck_algae.jpg

[kcress]

Thanks for the thoughts Nator.

I shall consider something like that.

BTW my outlets are 1/2" now.

[AlgaeNator]

Lets see some PICS Kress!

Like to see how you doing with this project.. Im tweaking mine each day trying to get the flow consistent across my vertical screen mesh design.

Curious to see how yours is shaping up now that you moved the lights back... Knowing now you have a POD farm going on over there.. wouldnt be surprised if your ARMY of PODS are consuming it before you can even clean it...lol

[kcress]

Here is a close up of the more 'conventional turf algae' rather than the hair type turf algae. This is what I am after at the moment.

I have provided a common reference for size.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/n78drakvlr.jpg

[ThePisces]

Excellent photo Kcress of 'Proper' turf algae. Not the green hair stuff I see!

[AlgaeNator]

cool.. there must be a name for the "turf" algae other than "turf" lol...

[SantaMonica]

Try AlgaeBase.org

[rainerfeyer]

I am currently making a horizontal scrubber out of DIY cement plates.

However, went shopping with my wife this weekend one of the purchased items was a "pizza stone' (from Be Bath and beyond) which turned out to be a ceramic tile plate appr 1/2" thick with very nicely roughed top surface! Could be ideal for a scrubber.

Just a thought,

Rainer

[kcress]

Yes! I'll suggest that you silicone or otherwise affix some sides to it so water doesn't run off the sides.