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View Full Version : Coming soon: the SURF2 floating surface scrubber !



SantaMonica
04-28-2013, 09:58 AM
Update: Now available:
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2794-Santa-Monica-SURF2


To get availability updates, go to www.Santa-Monica.cc at the left side of the page and subscribe.

Rumpy Pumpy
04-28-2013, 11:57 AM
Sounds interesting. I take it'll just use the tank lights?

SantaMonica
04-28-2013, 12:38 PM
Nope. Waterproof LED.

Rumpy Pumpy
04-28-2013, 01:52 PM
Look forward to seeing that.

RkyRickstr
04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
Waterfall scrubber?

Floyd R Turbo
04-29-2013, 01:22 PM
Sounds like something Srusso came up with a few months back...never posted anything about it though, we were just chatting about it.

SantaMonica
04-29-2013, 06:29 PM
Upflow

SantaMonica
05-05-2013, 12:12 PM
A first look...

4253

SantaMonica
05-06-2013, 08:41 PM
Revised

4254

SantaMonica
05-08-2013, 08:32 PM
More

4255

Rumpy Pumpy
05-11-2013, 08:09 AM
It's interesting but what's the advantage?

SantaMonica
05-11-2013, 01:42 PM
No waterfall
No shining through glass
Drop-in installation
No turning anything off to harvest
No removing anything to harvest
Lots of 3D growth
Easiest to build yet

SantaMonica
05-12-2013, 02:32 PM
Forgot... also is unaffected by water level changes from evap, like the HOG can be if being used as a bubble remover at the surface.

Also forgot... has built-in bubble remover.

And, is almost silent.

Garf
05-12-2013, 03:02 PM
So it's an air aggrivated horizontal?

red fish
05-12-2013, 03:46 PM
Sounds cool. Can't wait.

Floyd R Turbo
05-12-2013, 07:29 PM
Just my educated guesses here.

The frame is made of something buoyant like Styrofoam or the like.

The screen is horizontal and sits on the surface of the water

The LEDs are above the screen, attached to the top of the frame.

The airline / bubbler is underwater, bubbling up onto the screen. Either that, or a small venturi/skimmer pump is used to provide flow and bubbles.

Perhaps a 'skirt' hangs down under the waterline slightly to trap bubble from errantly sliding sideways and around the frame.

SantaMonica
05-14-2013, 02:20 AM
Lights

4294

bentleg
05-14-2013, 02:48 AM
what about the scrubber side what does that look like ?

SantaMonica
05-15-2013, 06:10 PM
Foam

4299

alum
05-16-2013, 08:59 AM
No waterfall
No shining through glass
Drop-in installation
No turning anything off to harvest
No removing anything to harvest
Lots of 3D growth
Easiest to build yet

Forgot... also is unaffected by water level changes from evap, like the HOG can be if being used as a bubble remover at the surface.

Also forgot... has built-in bubble remover.

And, is almost silent.

Wow look interesting SM, can't wait to see..
has prototype already ?

SantaMonica
05-16-2013, 09:09 AM
Yes my new reef pool is running on 3 of them

Floyd R Turbo
05-16-2013, 09:15 AM
Is that the one you set up when your tank cracked?

SantaMonica
05-16-2013, 10:20 AM
Yes

SantaMonica
05-16-2013, 05:59 PM
Project box

4301

Rumpy Pumpy
05-17-2013, 03:47 AM
Curious to know how you're going to create turbulence across the screen. Assuming you have bubbles emitting from the surface somehow?


Saw these on Ebay the other day and considered trying one out with a lamp above (and maybe a circle of plastic canvas on top)

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Large-200mm-round-air-stone-for-pond-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/lBYAAOxyu1FRjpw5/$T2eC16FHJHQFFhs%29V1YsBRjpw40W6g~~60_57.JPG


It's 8 inches across so would provide about 50 sq inches of surface.

SantaMonica
05-17-2013, 08:00 PM
Bottom view

4302

wesleyuk
05-19-2013, 07:13 AM
very nice but i dont understand how it works.

the idea is put it (float) in the sump? the bubbles underneath rise the water up right?

by the way, the hog.5 arrived in the UK perfect thank you :)

SantaMonica
05-19-2013, 11:19 AM
Yay UK mail!

Additional pics will show how it works.

Garf
05-19-2013, 03:12 PM
SM - can you post on the "Quantifying Biomass" thread, so everyone can evaluate the figures on your system?

SantaMonica
05-19-2013, 07:37 PM
Partial insides

4303

Rumpy Pumpy
05-20-2013, 10:22 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ShUFDa2lt2U/T9SVe4mV60I/AAAAAAAAE9M/tO39cU1LSKE/s1600/alice_tenniel_curiouser.jpg

Floyd R Turbo
05-20-2013, 11:25 AM
What is it with you guys from the UK and your picture posts. :)

SantaMonica
05-20-2013, 06:01 PM
And the rest...

4309

Before first SW harvest:
4310

First SW harvest:
4311

First harvest video:
http://youtu.be/Zjx4WA-oej0

3D model:
http://algaescrubber.net/SURF-Sketchup.skp

Purchase at:
http://www.santa-monica.cc/product.asp?itemid=40

donkey
05-20-2013, 06:12 PM
[QUOTE=SantaMonica;31974]



3D model:
http://algaescrubber.net/SURF-Sketchup.skp



Cant get that to open

Floyd R Turbo
05-20-2013, 06:33 PM
Can you PLEASE get a camera that focuses!!??

Floyd R Turbo
05-20-2013, 06:35 PM
...but I gotta hand it to you, that's some pretty nice growth!!

Rumpy Pumpy
05-21-2013, 12:42 AM
Looks good. A touch noisy though (bubbles)

How long did it take to grow to that stage?

Do you think this is as efficient as a waterfall?

bentleg
05-21-2013, 01:56 AM
Looking good

Peter
05-21-2013, 02:35 AM
This is looking great, as best possible solution so far.

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 02:43 AM
The link opens if you have Google Sketchup.

I'm just not good at pictures.

Unit is almost silent with the LED lid on.

Number of days with this unit is unknown, because the air tubing got disconnected, and the light timer got messed up, both with me noticing for a few days. Previous units however got to this stage in about 10 days.

I think it's better filtering than a waterfall for it's given size, because bubbles and water go up through the growth, and water then goes back down through the growth, no matter how thick the growth gets. It's certainly less hassle (none) compared to a waterfall, if you have the surface area to float it. And it's probably the only choice available for reef pools like this.

robotech
05-21-2013, 07:42 AM
[QUOTE=SantaMonica;31449]Coming soon: the SURF2 (tm) floating surface scrubber... "It Floats Like A Boat!" (tm)
already have one built and using it, just screen floating on the rite amount of foam covering the whole top of the fuge. adjust the amount of foam to control the height and air water mix at the top and no air pump. i also point the fuge pump up flowing thru it from the bottom.

Rumpy Pumpy
05-21-2013, 08:00 AM
already have one built and using it, just screen floating on the rite amount of foam covering the whole top of the fuge. adjust the amount of foam to control the height and air water mix at the top and no air pump. i also point the fuge pump up flowing thru it from the bottom.



Got some photos or a video of that?

Rumpy Pumpy
05-21-2013, 08:04 AM
SM, how long are the ribbons/strings?

And how deep is the chamber?

robotech
05-21-2013, 08:26 AM
Got some photos or a video of that?

no sir, not yet, just came up with it and got it going recently, may do some today for you, its raining so it may be a good time. just set it up maybe 2 weeks ago and the screen is covered so we will see how the trates go with it. trying to fing the page on diagnosing the screen, there,s those little light green circles on there and i forget what that is. also mine isnt quite the same, the screen is floating but the light is hanging from the cover.

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 09:48 AM
The SURF2 is 4 X 6 X 2, so the ribbons are 2" tall

Floyd R Turbo
05-21-2013, 10:18 AM
So...what happened to the SURF1? :)

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 10:26 AM
Was having trouble building it, and I have enough HOG1's for now anyway.

Peter
05-21-2013, 11:00 AM
I just have trouble understanding where is water intake here?
I see that there is two holes for water to go out from the scrubber, and two holes for air to go in trough air pump.
Can you help me out a bit with this please?

Garf
05-21-2013, 11:19 AM
I just have trouble understanding where is water intake here?
I see that there is two holes for water to go out from the scrubber, and two holes for air to go in trough air pump.
Can you help me out a bit with this please?

I've tried shallow bubbles in a horizontal and there is next to no fluid exchange. The only way I could get bubbles to do any meaningful flow was by putting air lift tubes deep into the water. SM - is this a really high nutrient tank?

kaskiles
05-21-2013, 04:28 PM
This seems like a good option on a sump system, thinking if one could be really small on an All In One system (back wall sump).
Hey, how do you harvest without ripping out the ribbons you glued on with epoxy?

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 05:58 PM
The two air bubble inlets suck water into them.

You harvest by just combing the ribbons with your fingers, or a salad fork.

Peter
05-21-2013, 06:07 PM
The two air bubble inlets suck water into them.

Sorry, but I still don't get it.
Two air bubble tubes goes straight from air pump into your scrubber chamber?
From which hole water is flowing to inside of the scrubber chamber?

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 06:20 PM
This might help:

4332

Peter
05-21-2013, 06:46 PM
Thank you very much, this helps a lot.

Reef Head
05-21-2013, 08:15 PM
What kind of rock are you using to epoxy to the box?

SantaMonica
05-21-2013, 08:24 PM
Any rough gravel will do, except aragonite which will slowly dissolve.

Reef Head
05-22-2013, 09:05 AM
What is the crystal like rock/material you refer to as 'Green Grabber' surface on your HOG1?

SantaMonica
05-22-2013, 09:22 AM
Secret :)

Devs
05-22-2013, 10:02 AM
Is it the green grabber stuff you use on the surf2 ?

Reef Head
05-22-2013, 11:23 AM
SM is it something that can be purchased at a crafts store like Michael's or Hobby Lobby? I can possibly narrow it down but if I go find something similar/comparable I'd like to be sure it wouldn't be toxic or leach anything into my reef.

Please don't think I'm trying to infringe on your trade secrets. I get it...it puts food on your table. I am trying to redesign my scrubber concept since I am so limited in space. I have a design concept I would be interested in sharing with you off line but it is something that needs to be constructed prior filling a sump with water or installing in the cabinet. Meaning acrylic work is involved. It might be of interest to you if you or your friends build sumps. I have already constructed it in mine. Of the thousands of sump photos I've studied only one has anything similar but then again not really.

Garf
05-22-2013, 11:39 AM
Any rough gravel will do, except aragonite which will slowly dissolve.

什麼他媽的

Reef Head
05-22-2013, 11:47 AM
I did read that earlier Garf however, gravel will not work in my intended application/design.

Floyd R Turbo
05-22-2013, 12:05 PM
什麼他媽的

Classic

Floyd R Turbo
05-22-2013, 12:07 PM
Any rough gravel will do, except aragonite which will slowly dissolve.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't aragonite dissolve in low pH? The high pH environment created by algae scrubbers should actually prevent the aragonite from dissolving.

SantaMonica
05-22-2013, 12:35 PM
Yes the same Green-Grabber stuff, but any thick-grain sized non-aragonite aquarium substrate will work.

Garf
05-22-2013, 02:04 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't aragonite dissolve in low pH? The high pH environment created by algae scrubbers should actually prevent the aragonite from dissolving.

Here you go Floyd;

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/3/chemistry


This shift considerably lowers the carbonate concentration. Using equation 8, one can calculate that the concentration of carbonate drops by about a factor of 3 for a pH drop of 0.5 and by a factor of 10 for a full pH unit drop. Consequently, aragonite first becomes soluble in seawater when the pH drops below about 7.7 (this value might be more like 7.5-7.7 in reef tanks where the alkalinity is often higher than in seawater). That level is attained in some sand beds, and permits the dissolution of some of the sand.

The rate of dissolution is fairly low, however, because the rate of delivery and degradation of organics (or certain nitrogen compounds) deep enough in the sand to permit a pH drop is fairly low. The rate will, however, vary from tank to tank as the different ways of delivering organics to deeper parts of the sand will vary (diffusion; movement by organisms; death of organisms, etc). Note that the need to oxidize the organics in deeper parts of the sand to permit dissolution of the sand has nothing to do with the oxygenation of the sand. It has more to do with the fact that at near surface regions of the sand, the pH will be closer to that of the tank water by acid and base transfer from the water column, and you need to be deep enough to permit a lower pH to become established.

So, in a tank operating in normal reef conditions, aragonite will not dissolve. Quite the opposite in high ph photosynthetically adapted systems, Especially so in low fluid exchange scrubbers like this one.

Floyd R Turbo
05-22-2013, 02:47 PM
With that considered, I guess there is no reason to try and figure out what this green grabber stuff is. Aragonite sand is pretty darn rough.

Garf
05-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Well, there's a line in one of the Shakespeare plays that says "The lady doth protest too much methinks"

Reef Head
05-22-2013, 02:52 PM
SM, what non-toxic reef safe epoxy are you using to adhere your Green-Grabber stuff to the box? Or...is that a secret as well?

Reef Head
05-22-2013, 02:55 PM
With that considered, I guess there is no reason to try and figure out what this green grabber stuff is. Aragonite sand is pretty darn rough.

What size do you think would be best?

SantaMonica
05-22-2013, 03:38 PM
1 to 5mm is good. Any reef putty should work. Maybe even reef gel, but I have not tried it.

Floyd R Turbo
05-22-2013, 06:39 PM
The innards of the box remind me of the Adey patent that you posted a link to a while back (year+ ago) for the 3D mesh.

SantaMonica
05-22-2013, 07:44 PM
That patent will be issuing soon with all 20 claims pretty much intact.

SantaMonica
05-23-2013, 08:17 PM
Assembling a final "picture ready" unit which will be used for the shopping cart photos. At first I thought the final version of the box and textures and ribbons would take a while to decide on, but the LED is setting the record for endless weeks of daily variations to get the best combination of height, sound, looks, brightness, waterproof-ness, weight (affects floating level), and cost. Makes the HOG's seem simple.

SantaMonica
05-26-2013, 10:05 AM
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2794-Santa-Monica-SURF2

Devs
05-31-2013, 01:48 AM
Hi SM

In one of your vids you mention a magnetic coupling, can you elaborate more on this and maybe even pics ?

Also can you elaborate more on the silicone encapsulant you mention, in the vid it has a distinct white tinge to it similar to that of standard clear aquarium silicone which in turn gives the led's a sort of diffused look.

SantaMonica
05-31-2013, 04:16 AM
That's just a driver.

And the silicone is actually 3 silicones: White for reflection, black for edge light block, and clear for filler.

Floyd R Turbo
05-31-2013, 08:54 AM
I think he is talking about in the first few seconds of the second video where you mention the fixture is electrically isolated due to a magnetic coupling

SantaMonica
05-31-2013, 09:48 AM
That's what the driver is.

Devs
05-31-2013, 11:32 AM
Do you mean a magnetic coupling inside the driver unit ?

Also referring to the light unit, if I'm understanding correctly...you make them in a sort of mold ?

SantaMonica
05-31-2013, 12:56 PM
Yes and yes.

Floyd R Turbo
06-01-2013, 09:59 AM
"the power supply is completely isolated from the mains, meaning that there's no actual wire connection from this wire [back of fixture] to your house wiring, it's completely separate, it's not connected, it's only connected through magnetic coupling"

Do you mean this internally in the fixture, or somewhere between the fixture and the wall plug? In the product photos you show a power pack like a laptop power adapter, is that what you're talking about?

SantaMonica
06-01-2013, 10:46 AM
I mean drivers are internally isolated from the mains.

SantaMonica
06-03-2013, 08:44 PM
4399

Floyd R Turbo
06-03-2013, 09:02 PM
typo alert! or grammar alert I guess.

Devs
06-08-2013, 12:30 AM
SM...

You mention that you paint the heatsink with flat/matt black paint, whilst this is ok for the side that has the led's attached to it and is encased in resin, what about the side which is exposed to the elements which in this case happens to be salt water ?

Surely this needs to be sealed in some way, either a thin resin or acrylic layer of some sort ?

SantaMonica
06-08-2013, 05:16 AM
The top side is just exposed to air. The aluminum case, even without paint, self-seals by oxidation (I'm running one with no paint at all), and the paint just keeps it looking new.

If it were for submerged use, then I'd seal it on all sides since it would not need the cooling on top.

wesleyuk
06-15-2013, 10:31 AM
can i ask why air pump? whats wrong with slow water pump?

SantaMonica
06-15-2013, 01:00 PM
It won't grow.

DownwardDawg
06-22-2013, 01:38 PM
I don't understand how you installed the lights. On page 2 you posted a sketch that says any type of plastic box? Also, do you actually fill the box with silicone or just seal the edges?

SantaMonica
06-22-2013, 02:44 PM
If you look at the shopping cart page you can see how the light is done:
http://www.santa-monica.cc/SURF2-floating-surface-UAS-with-ribbons-and-Green-Grabber-surfaces--2-cubes-feeding-per-day_p_40.html

Yes any type of plastic box. Black for the growth compartment; clear for the light.

On mine, I fill the light box up with silicone. It's very heavy and solid.

DownwardDawg
06-22-2013, 04:16 PM
It doesn't affect the LED's being encapsulated in clear silicone? Forgive my ignorance. I've never tried anything like this.

SantaMonica
06-22-2013, 04:22 PM
It keeps them from corroding.

DownwardDawg
06-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Thanks for all your information. You've been great.

soytribal
06-24-2013, 04:39 PM
It keeps them from corroding.


Hello, could you tell me if the LEDs should be sealed with the silicone still fresh in the box, or you have to wait for it to dry to seal it?

SantaMonica
06-24-2013, 05:45 PM
Welcome.

Not totally sure what you mean. You fill the box, let it dry, then seal the box, and let it dry.

soytribal
06-24-2013, 07:15 PM
That's waht i mean! Thanks. It is a very good system and I must congratulate you on the concept. And thanks for all the explanations you have given really are helpful

Ericsson
07-01-2013, 02:18 PM
Have you any plans to make smaller ones? Would be interested but its only for a 100l tank so will be a small feed.

SantaMonica
07-01-2013, 04:57 PM
Not for a while.

I have however put it on a 10 gallon (25 ltr) before.