Eliminating, destroying, getting rid of Hair Algae in Display Tank - with Scrubber Help

[rleahaines]

Over the last month or so I have been attacking the problem of a Hair Algae outbreak in my DT.

The tank is a 29 GAL high with a sump. Roughly 35 gal. total water volume.

I have a UAS that I put together with a screen roughly 6 X 5 inches - with LED lighting of both reds and blues. 4 red and 2 blue LED's - plenty of light. May be overkill here, but I am not getting any screen burning.

Feeding roughly 1/2 cube equiv. per day of flake, pellets and other kinds of food. I have a very large Engineer Goby, A clownfish and a blue/yellow damsel in the tank.

I have a bunch of soft corals - Xenia and leather coral.

I have attacked the Hair Algae with the following:



Added clean up Crew. Lots of different kinds of snails plus crabs.

Put in a GFO reactor - to reduce P.

Cut back on the hours for the lighting on the DT to 8 hours per day.

Running UAS 18 hours/day.

at this point the hair algae still seemed to be growing fairly strongly. The clean up crew really didn't seem to make a lot of difference.

I am getting algae that looks "wilted", seems to only grow so long. Unfortunately it still spreads and fills in the nooks and crannies of my live rock.

I have been manually removing the algae by taking rocks out and scrubbing them with a brush in a bucket of saltwater - at least those which don't have corals attached.Put rock back in same places. Note: I have a 4 circulation pumps in the tank that give me a good mixed water flow on and around all of the rockwork. Don't seem to be losing any of the rock filtering capacity as far as I can tell.

Algae growing back.

Second stage:

One week ago I changed the air supply to a much more powerful one, basically 4X what I had before. This gives me a very active water flow upwards across the screen of the UAS with lots of bubbles of various sizes. The algae growth seems to be doing OK with the light penetrating the wall of bubbles.
The increased flow seems to be slowing down the algae growth. More wilting. Some seems to be actually dying off. Very slowly.

Again, took out rocks and scrubbed them.

Went to my local fish store and got 3 Mexican Turbo snails yesterday plus 5 more maroon leg hermit crabs. The Turbos are eating away. Crabs seem to be moving around but I can't tell if they are making any difference. A lot of the snails from the original clean up crew seem to have been eaten or disappeared.

Changed the GFO yesterday as well.

Nitrate at 0
P is at about .3 = hopefully will go down more.
I would like to really blast the GHA out of there. I can add more scrubber capacity, another UAS [got the parts and lED's] or whatever needed.

I'll post pics of the tank and UAS screen so you can see what is going on.

Any suggestions?

Rick

[SantaMonica]

It's probably been working all this time. P is coming out of the rocks, causing more growth on the rocks for a while. What matters is how much is growing on the plastic.

When I transferred my rock (with P) from my 90 to my reef pool, where was a cycle causing algae all over including plastic. Also I had limited (only 1 SURF2) filtering. As I added filtering (now four SURF2's), algae decreased on the plastic but increased on the rocks. P measurements also started dropping. Since plastic can't store P, this is your sign that P is coming out of the rocks.

[Ace25]

Can anyone show me one valid link to show phosphates have the ability to 'leach from rocks' in a normal saltwater aquarium setting (pH 7.8-8.2)? The only possible way for phosphate to 'leach' from rocks is if the pH gets so low the rocks start to dissolve, and if that were the case, everything in the tank would be long dead. It is exactly the same as someone saying 'GFO leaches phosphates' which we never hear because it isn't true, so why is the rock scenario repeated so often when it is the same concept? I am not debating that rocks can absorb phosphates in the process of calcification, that is well documented, but also well documented is the lack of ability to leach back out under normal conditions.

Also, plastic aids in bacteria colonization (biopellets anyone?) and will actually help reduce N/P in a tank. I have personal experience with using a rubbermaid as a sump and experiencing the plastic container actually doing more filtering than the ATS that was in it, but like biopellets, rubbermaid (plastic containers) in a saltwater tank gets eaten by the bacteria and becomes very brittle in a short time, short being 1-2 years.


Nope, it will not leach back out. The only way phosphates are going to get bound to a "rock" is if you have calcium carbonate precipitating out of the water onto the rock. As the calcium forms, it takes phosphates (and a number of other elements) with it. In short, for the phosphates to leach back out, the "rock (calcium carbonate) would have to be dissolved again. Which can only happen in very low pH, not something that is going to happen in a normal system.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

" A second mechanism for potential phosphate reduction when using high pH additives is the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. "

"many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate. "

"Simply keeping the pH high in a reef aquarium (8.4) may help prevent phosphate that binds to rock and sand from re-entering the water column. Allowing the pH to drop into the 7s, especially if it drops low enough to dissolve some of the aragonite, may serve to deliver phosphate to the water column. "


from a chemistry standpoint phosphates are bound up to another ion (they dont exist in your rock as phosphate, but as say calcium phosphate, magnesium phosphate and sodium phosphate) in order to have phosphates in your water come from these sources you would need to exceed the breaking energy of these bonds. bacteria do this much more efficiently when they break up food, fish poo etc. are your rocks releasing some phosphate ions? sure, but they might account for .001% of your total phosphate concentration.

[SantaMonica]

I don't think it from dissolution; it's from diffusion. Same as putting rock from a "bad" tank into a new "good" tank: Instant algae problems as the P come out of the bad rock.

Reducing P by filtering produces the same "new, good" water that causes the P to diffuse out.

[Ace25]

Have to disagree with you. In this picture I used rock that was fully saturated with N/P when I setup the tank.. half the rock came out of my 10 year old 29G that was a 'rock wall' aquascape for a decade, and the other half from a neighbors 5 year old tank when he tore it down. I know the rocks were 'bad' by the meaning we are talking about in this thread, but for the first 4 years of this tanks life it looked pristine and SPS corals grew like crazy. It was due to my filtration and maintenance regimen. Before I owned my own Hanna meter others would come over to test my tank with theirs and it always read 0.00. Unfortunately I don't have as deep of pockets these days so my extreme maintenance had to come to a stop and my tank has suffered ever since and I have tried so many different things to try and resolve it short of going back to 50G weekly water changes on a 75G tank, but back to the point, live rock does not have the ability to leach phosphates back into saltwater if the pH is kept proper, it may not have the same ability to absorb phosphates as it once did when it was 'clean', but that doesn't mean it leaches anything back out into the water once it is 'bad'. If you put a clean (no algae) 'bad' piece of live rock in a tub of saltwater for a week with a heater and powerhead and test the water, N/P will not have risen. Do the same in RO/DI water, that is a different story as the pH of RO/DI will dissolve the rock and release compounds like magnesium phosphate, calcium phosphate, and other types of inorganic phosphates that are already bound to other things.

Can you spot the algae?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3661/3454070128_bcecc2b579_o.jpg

How about a closer look? Nope, no algae.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3356/3453256547_df584580ae_o.jpg

[rleahaines]

Reading through all that I have some questions?

Would a lowering of pH into the 7.8 range add to the growth of algae in a tank?

Would raising pH to around 8.3 or so inhibit it?

I have seen posts in other forums as well that claim live rock tends to give off nutrients of various kinds including P for a while after it is placed in a tank.

All I know is that I put some supposedly cured live rock in my system and got a major outbreak of GHA!

[rleahaines]

and yes, I get growth on plastic in the tank. Thinking to make a scrubber just out of plastic tubing :-)

[SantaMonica]

I don't think pH by itself matters to the algae; just nutrients, light, flow, and attachment.

For the plastic, is it clean, or is there a layer of coralline?

[rleahaines]

I don't think pH by itself matters to the algae; just nutrients, light, flow, and attachment.

For the plastic, is it clean, or is there a layer of coralline?

Clean.

my overflow box, plastic tubing, powerheads and every other piece of plastic tend to get algae growth. It comes off easily but is a pain to clean up.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Reading through all that I have some questions?

Would a lowering of pH into the 7.8 range add to the growth of algae in a tank?

Would raising pH to around 8.3 or so inhibit it?

I have seen posts in other forums as well that claim live rock tends to give off nutrients of various kinds including P for a while after it is placed in a tank.

All I know is that I put some supposedly cured live rock in my system and got a major outbreak of GHA!

The point Ace is making is that Phosphate can and will precipitate out under certain conditions (at high pH, etc) and that in general, pH would have to drop very low in order for P to leech out. So if you keep your tank pH at high levels all the time, you will never get significant phosphate out of your rocks. When people acid bath rocks, this will break up the matrix and p will be released. Then when you soak in RODI (which technically has no pH, not to be confused with zero) it will leech out like crazy. Put it in high pH saltwater and it won't. So in relation to algae growth occuring due to presence of available phosphate, if you keep your pH high, this phosphate would not be available. But it is a hidden thing, because one the rock is saturated, the P that WAS depositing onto the rock is not anymore, and thus available for algae consumption. So this would explain why you got growth after putting cured rock in the tank. It's not that the rock is leeching, it's that it is saturated and can't adsorb the P that you are introducing into the tank. Make sense? Ace, did I get that right?

This is where a skimmer starts to show it's usefulness when ran in conjunction with a scrubber. A skimmer can remove some of the organic P in food before it can get consumed and turned into inorganic P. So if you have a P problem (and zero nitrates), you can use a skimmer (even ran only part time, skimming light, or significantly smaller than "recommended") to take that extra edge off what the algae can't uptake.


my overflow box, plastic tubing, powerheads and every other piece of plastic tend to get algae growth. It comes off easily but is a pain to clean up.

It only looks clean. After a day in saltwater, it's already getting a coating on it that allows algae to attach.

[Ace25]

Yup, you got it right Floyd. Under high pH, phosphates in the water will form precipitates. When you dose Kalk or the 1st part of 2 part, Alk, it creates a very high pH zone in the area it was dosed and forms the white cloud you see, which are precipitates, and are not really useful in the tank. At that point the phosphates are bound up inorganics in particulate form, meaning they can't be used to feed algae (or corals). In order for it to become useful for algae the pH would have to drop to around 7 or lower to break the ionic bonds and release the phosphates back into the water. In regards to rocks, instead of precipitates being an issue, it is more the calcifying organisms that went into creating the rock. The corals, coralline algae, etc. They used phosphates to create those structures, so in order for the phosphates to be released from them the pH would have to drop below 7 before phosphates could start to 'leach' from the rock and feed algae. Most rock we use would 'leach' to the point of turning to mush/wet cement over a fairly short time if rocks were leaching phosphates into the water. You could speed up this process by placing live rock in a strong acid bath and seeing how many days it takes to dissolve. The lower the pH the quicker it will dissolve, but under normal tank conditions where pH is normally in the 7.8-8.2 range it isn't possible for phosphates to leach out because that is the sweet spot where inorganic particulates and rock are stable.

It is always better to slowly add kalk/alk from something like a dripper/dosing pump instead of dumping in xx ml from a cup a day in order to avoid to much precipitation because you just end up using more elements in the water and have to dose more of other things like calcium and magnesium to make up for it. On one hand heavy dosing seems nice in that it binds phosphates and removes them from the water, it comes at a cost of more dosing of other elements back into the water and having to remove those particulates before they reach the display along with worrying about not spiking the pH in the display. It is safer and creates a much more stable system by slowly dosing over the course of a day vs once a day, and dosing so the effluent goes into a 1 micron filter sock will remove almost all of the precipitates that may form, which is how it is done when people dose Lanthanun to bind phosphates and remove then from the water. In the case of Lanthanum though the crystal structures that form when it binds can be damaging to fish gills so you always want to remove the particulates by dosing into a 1 micron sock.

[SantaMonica]

Well I don't agree. In a constant pH system, if it was high-P before and is now low-P, the P will come out and form algae on the rock.

Even in constant pH.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah but the point is, how low does the pH need to get before it starts dissolving? I believe the answer is low enough that the tank would not be very reef friendly anymore. But I am open to correction.

[Ace25]

Well I don't agree. In a constant pH system, if it was high-P before and is now low-P, the P will come out and form algae on the rock.

Even in constant pH.
All I ask and have ever asked from you is 'to prove it'. Show us some scientific paper, some personal experiment you video, anything to back up what you are saying. I have shown from a link that what you are saying isn't possible according to science. I have done my own experiments over the years and know the results I have seen (although I admit since I didn't video/record it in any way it is just hearsay, but anyone can do the same test and post their results to confirm or negate my findings). It is your job to now show what is wrong with that link/science since you are the only one believing it is possible for rocks to leach phosphates under normal pH conditions.

Also, if you believe it is possible to leach phosphates under normal pH conditions, that also means it would have to leach calcium and magnesium to name a couple other things since those are bound to the phosphates. If the phosphates leach, so would the other elements. If this were to happen (which I do not believe is possible) it would be easy to confirm the rocks are leaching because not only would you have a phosphate reading 'before and after', you would also have a calcium reading 'before and after' to prove those phosphates came from the rock, and the calcium having risen along with the phosphates.

The only 'constant pH' scenario where rocks are able to leach anything from them is at a pH of 7.2 or lower, far below acceptable. If a reef tank were to have a pH anywhere near 7.2 for an extended period of time, even 7.4 which is higher than the point of phosphates coming from rocks, corals won't be alive for long. At a pH of 7.4 'constant' all the dying corals would be my first suspect on where a rise of phosphates are coming from, not the rock.

[rleahaines]

My guess is the phosphate comes from organic matter that is in the live rock that dies off over time. Normal "curing" of live rock basically kills off the organics or stabilizes them with a certain water flow. When the rock is placed in a tank it takes time for the rock to actually "cure" in the tank and to the tank conditions.

Eventually all this stabilizes as the amount of stuff in the rock, the amount fed to the tank, and the size of a scrubber and/or skimmer used for filtration evens out. Sponges and other life in the rock stop dying as well. At this point a scrubber that grows algae at a rate that uses P and N higher than produced by the combination of the stuff in the tank will cause a reduction in DT algae.

At least in theory. I suspect that for a large GHA outbreak or an outbreak of bubble algae more steps may need to be done other than increasing the size, hours and flow in a scrubber.

I also wonder if a waterfall scrubber may be more effective at "cleaning up" algae than a UAS.

[Ace25]

That is a different type of phosphate though. Organic phosphates are not the same as inorganic. Organic phosphates are something most people never test for and I don't consider organic phosphate as part of the 'leaching from live rock' discussion because it isn't actually coming off of the live rock itself (as in calcium phosphate dissolving from the rock). Organic phosphate buildup is caused by 'the person in the mirror', meaning it is caused by the person that maintains the tank by either not setting the tank up correctly (dead zones in flow due to incorrect flow, incorrect rock placement/amount, or insufficient filtration) or overfeeding (where the vast majority of organic phosphates come from).

Everyone has a different definition of 'cooking' rock. To me, normal cooking of live rock is not intended to 'kill off ALL organic life' on the rock. Some peoples definition of 'cooking' rock includes giving it an acid bath, which in that case, it does kill off organic life. When I 'cook' rock I just scrub the rock clean of algae and loose organics, then place in a clean container/tank with no light, powerhead, heater set on 76, add some bacteria (like Dr. Tim's) to increase bacteria levels so they can eat up any detritus on the rock, but still keep larger organisms like sponges alive. My goal when I 'cook' rock is to just clean out any built up organics and algae that may be growing on it while still keeping the rock 'live' as much as possible. Not saying my definition is more or less correct than someone elses, it is just one of those terms where everyone seems to have a slightly different idea on what it entails, and none of them are wrong since there is no set definition.

I just got done redoing my 75G with 'cooked' live rock. After many years of trying to get my ATS to reduce algae outbreaks in my 75G to no avail (it has only gotten worse over the years). Here are a before and after video. Now I am 'cooking' all the rock I took out, but this time I will be giving the rock an acid bath first in order to kill off aiptasia as my last attempt didn't seem to do the trick (leaving rock outside on patio for 30 days + soaking in RO/DI for a week, some aiptasia still survived!).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61IupplmamM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp8sanSSM5g

[rleahaines]

What kind of phosphate are we actually measuring when we use a hanna checker or a phosphate test?

I got the impression that organic phosphates - coming into the system through food - are supposedly used up by algae scrubber and other algae - and that if they get to a higher than wanted amount this causes problems with corals etc.

Originally I started a algae scrubber for Nitrate reduction, and have achieved success with that.

Now I am fighting GHA and looking for ways to get rid of it - the algae scrubber is supposed to help here.

My question is: What do I do? Up the hours, raise the pH slowly, get more turbo snails, or what?

[Ace25]

99% of the liquid tests as well has the Hanna Phosphate meters ONLY test for inorganic phosphates. You can test your water and have it say 0.03 phosphates while at the same moment you are dumping in 10 cubes of food. It is much harder and more expensive to test for organic phosphates (Hach sells a $150 test kit that will test for organic phosphates).

The algae scrubbers biggest benefit is like you state, it does reduce/eliminate nitrates extremely well, too well in most cases as it causes an imbalance of zero nitrates and rising phosphates. As for what to do about an algae problem. My #1 answer is to feed less. #2 answer is to get creatures that will eat it. Lettuce nudibranchs and turbo snails are by far the 2 best methods I have found for smaller tanks but snails seem to become 'lazy' after just a couple months, meaning it is best to replace them every couple months. For larger tanks, Tangs are one of the best methods but you need several of them, which means you would need a fairly large tank to support them (200G+ IMO as a Tang police member, lol).

[Floyd R Turbo]

Phosphate test kits read inorganic phosphate, algae uptakes. Organic phosphate is food, which is processed by organisms into inorganic phosphate. read this http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php well worth the time

[kaskiles]

I cannot reference any science links or studies, but I remember reading someplace that the idea was that there was a localized pH drop at the rock surface caused by bacteria.

So bacteria coat the phosphate bound live rock surface, slime it over and isolate it's chemistry, lower the pH to release the phosphate, then cackle evilly as they release it through their slime layer to destroy the system (or maybe just eat it). Also, they could be in league with the hair algae roots, and are both working together...

It does make more sense to me that they are working like bio-balls, just accumulating detritus over time, and releasing organic phosphorus.

[Floyd R Turbo]

kaskiles, I would like to see such a link if you could find one. That explanation would at least make some sense. The previous logic was that when you have rocks with P trapped in them, and then P is lowered in the water column, it "leeches" out of the rock. Nothing that I recall was ever said about a bacterial mechanism being in place.

This would be interesting to learn though. It is my feeling that there is a very strong bacteria-algae connection on our scrubbers, and it would not surprise me to find out that such a mechanism would also explain if and how phosphate would get pulled out of rockwork. But I want to see the proof.