What happened when you ran with and witout a Skimmer Thread!

[sabbath]

Lets see what peoples results are if you ran a system with and without a Skimmer. This while having a Scrubber running the whole time.

Also what else do you do or not do and get the best results. Like Carbon, Biopellets or GFO...

Do you do Water changes and at what % per month?

But this thread is mainly about what happened when you run a Scrubbed tank with and without a Skimmer.

This is the post that got me wondering.

I put my aqua-c urchin skimmer online when I first read this and left it for a few weeks just to see what happened. The skimmer took a few days to "break-in" then it started to make lots of green skimate. It only made the skimate for about a week. After that it just made light tea collared water. during this time of skimming my algae did grow a bit faster than normal. My displays water looked a little more "sparkely" but my corals spent much more time closed , and my pod populations wear on the decline! I took the skimmer off line last week and put it back in storage where it has been for the last 5 years :) I know this is not a skimmer vs scrubber thread BUT I am sold on the scrubber and my skimmer will be getting dusty as it sits in storage! Hope this helps!

[MorganAtlanta]

I ran without a skimmer for two years and did fine, but always had diatoms and little places where algae kept coming back in the display. I added a skimmer and started dosing vinegar and those issues cleared right up. So in my experience, skimmers + carbon dosing worked well in conjunction with a scrubber. Some people get along well with just one or the other, but for me, the combo worked well. Also during that time, I did basically no water changes. I recently started doing daily automated water changes, but I can't say whether they help or not since I'm in the middle of a tear down and rebuild and I'm just changing water in the temporary tank. The new system will have a scrubber, skimmer + carbon dosing, and 4% daily water changes.

[greenmachine]

glad you liked my post!:) I do a 5 gallon water change once in a blue moon on my 55 total gallon system. I have had the same (makes 200 gal.) bucket of instant ocean salt for about 3 years now lol :)

[sklywag]

Well I recently added a skimmer after losing five fish and watching corals shrivel to nothing overnight for who knows why. The tank was about to crash for one reason or another. I am running essentially the same tank I had before with just a scrubber and zero water changes for a few years with excellent results. But this tank which has been up for about six months isn't doing so well. It's an upgrade from a tank I had for about a year in the garage with only an ATS which did great. Anyway. After adding the skimmer and doing a whopping five gallon wc on a 90 gallon tank things came back to life for me. No more dead fish and corals are growing. But I am fighting algae like nobodies business. I'm hardly feeding my fish to limit nutrients. Sump is algae free even though flooded with light from scrubber.

Afraid to yank skimmer now even though I know scrubbers work. And I'm even thinking of adding more crap like reactors to my system even though I know they aren't needed.

[SantaMonica]

Simple case of a too-weak scrubber.

[sabbath]

My 180g Mixed reef( SPS dominate) is running a L4 Scrubber with a skimmer and part time carbon. I feed about 4 cubes a day in this tank. I find that if I go part time with the Skimmer. That I start to get a green slime algae and the corals don't look as bright. Also I then start to get a surface slime. I find that I need to run carbon every couple weeks for a few days or this will start up as well. I change about 10% every 6 weeks while siphoning the sand. I don't want to mess with success as the tank looks better then I could get it to while running full Zeovit!

I have a 20g Frag system that has a L2 Scrubber with no Skimmer or carbon added. I'm trying to see what happens if I run Scrubber only with this tank. So far after a few months it is doing okay. The corals at this point loose a lot of their color in this system. I feed about 1/2 a cube a day in this tank. Also no water changes.

[sklywag]

Scrubber is same one I was using for almost a year on temporary tank with great results. Temporary tank was 45 gallon. This set up is 90. Screen size is 7x7 maybe with two 23 watt CFLS on both sides.

[Floyd R Turbo]

sklywag, I'm completely confused as to which tank had which scrubber on it and when, and for how long. I think I need a timeline from day one.

[sklywag]

Lets see if I can clear this up. I had a 90g a couple years ago that ran solely with an ATS for a few years like a champ with no water changes and looked beautiful using old size guide lines. Sold it prior to moving. Kept my smaller freshwater tanks.

After moving about a year and a half ago. I bought a running 45 gallon tank in horrible condition for a good price. Sold the skimmer and built an ATS for it. Again oversized because I didn't know sizing changed to feeding instead of gallons. Anyway. This tank was in the garage doing great for a little over a year again with zero water changes. Then I got back into local forums and found a deal on a 90 g with stand, hood, and lights. 90 gallons seems to be an ideal size to me. And figured I couldn't go wrong with virtually the same set up.

After refinishing it I moved it into the house and transfered everything over to it and added more water of course. Went through the natural changes and then it all cleared up. Been up since about Jan. Well about a month ago algae moved in and as posted earlier lost several fish and some corals started to die on me. And also as stated as above. I did a very minor water change and added a NAC7 I got for dirt cheap and everything turned around on me except for the algae problem. It's not GHA it's rust color hair algae.
My screen is actually 5 wide and about 9 long with 23 watt CFLs and growing great. The skimmer is doing a good job too. I know the problem isn't the scrubber. May be my lights. Using T5s just like on original 90 gallon. Keep thinking of switching to LEDs.

So did I clear that up for you?

Building a new sump to create a constant water level for skimmer. It's looking like I'm going to have to use a stand alone pump to feed scrubber instead of overflow feed due to my poor engineering and designing skills. Current sump has no baffles just like the original tank I had before. Ooh to get back to such simplicity of that set up.

Since I'm going to have a water level of 10 inches in one section I thought about a UAS but don't believe they filter as much water as a waterfall.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That does clear it up. So are you thinking that your scrubber, which is 4 cubes but new guidelines or 45 gallons by old guideline, is properly sized or not?

[sklywag]

Well........kind of hard to say. If I think about it. It seems when I have way oversized scrubbers I have no problems.
On my first 90 g I had a 10x10-12 horizontal screen and tank was great. Went vertical with same screen. Great.

Set up a 45g with a 10x10-12 screen and after a few months, great. Set up new 90g with a smaller screen, 5x9 and not so great. Always using 23 watt CFLs on both sides and great growth.

I have no idea. I'm leaning towards the square inch per gallon. Don't the 3D and floating/river/whatever with the stringy things tend to grow more and intended to let it grow more for longer seem to add to volume is what is working or what we're trying to achieve? Along with split screens to stagger cleanings?

Crazy thing is with new sump I'm building the scrubber would be smaller than now. More like 5x4 which will be closer to new guidelines. Argh.........

Just bought a Foxface and another Tang along with 50 more Hermits and getting ready to buy another 50 Nerites. Maybe my clean up crew is lacking. Trying to remember what I had going in my last 90 gallon. But then is that the scrubber working or them?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think one of the things that you are facing is the fact that chemistry within a tank can shift over the course of time. This is what a lot of people do not consider. Also, when you take all your rock and stock from one tank to the next tank, and then to the next tank, you change flow patterns, light levels, etc - these can all affect overall tank chemistry.

There are so many factors that we don't generally consider, a lot of these might be insignificant but there might be something in there making a difference.

I would say that if you used the same size CFLs on the 90g screen as the 45g screen (meaning that your 45g screen had 2x the light concentration?) you should be getting the same results.

Were you using one 23W on each side or two? What are you using now?

[sklywag]

One on each side within 3 or 4 inches of screen and with reflectors.

Just did a 5 gallon water change. More so vacuuming out algae as I pulled it off rock and scraped back wall. Been running only 1 T5 coral for the past couple of days to help. The few Nerites I have do an awesome job.

Amazes me that with all the light I have in my sump area and running my ATS for 18 on that my sump is a clear as can be. You'd think there'd be algae there too.

[greenmachine]

Now I am confused! I may have to eat my words! I took the skimmer off line last week and over the course of a few days my water started to get a touch cloudy,nothing bad but the water did loose its "sparkley" look. So I put the skimmer back in the sump 2 days ago and the water looks great again? I do NOT WANT to run a skimmer but I love the look of the water when it's running. I do hate the fact that I am removing all that natural coral food! My system is all soft corals with one LPS (hammer). SO the question is To skim or not to skim?? Like I said before I ran this system for about 5 years with the scrubber ONLY and it always looked great and there was never any algae in the display. Just the last few month I have been getting a little algae in the display and this slight "tinge/cloud" to the water. Maye I need to tweek something on the scrubber? Il try to post some pics of the screen later:)

[rog2961]

I've been running my scrubber for a solid 2 months now. The most I can get out of it is a couple days of green hair algae, and then it turns into this light brown/gray mush. Once this occurs the algae stops growing. I am cleaning it weekly, I have 2 lights on either side that are pretty much up against the acrylic splash guard. Flow is the drain, which is also supplemented by another pump. I've set everything up according to guidelines and still cannot get the big growth. I have since added a skimmer in addition to the scrubber and have watched my nitrates fall consistently. I will say the algae in my display is non existant, and that my screen is rather large for my bioload.

[greenmachine]

here is my screen 3 days after a lite cleaning

[Floyd R Turbo]

When you have a screen that is oversized per the load (bioload, feeding, etc) then you can encounter an issue with getting GHA to grow because the growth is spread out over too wide of an area.

rog I just checked your posts and I remember you had a brand new tank with 2x 10x10 screens then you went down to 1 10x10 screen. With that big of a screen on a new tank with little to no load, I would not expect much growth. Also if you started with truly "dead" everything, you might not have much diversity of life in the tank, it is my experience that the best scrubbers work on a tank with a lot of different life.

A skimmer can knock out nitrates pretty well if they are not too high and feeding is not too heavy, I've seen that happen. But once you start to get a lot of bioload and feeding it wont keep up, the opposite is the case with the scrubber. The more diversity in the tank, the better the scrubber performs.

[rog2961]

When you have a screen that is oversized per the load (bioload, feeding, etc) then you can encounter an issue with getting GHA to grow because the growth is spread out over too wide of an area.

rog I just checked your posts and I remember you had a brand new tank with 2x 10x10 screens then you went down to 1 10x10 screen. With that big of a screen on a new tank with little to no load, I would not expect much growth. Also if you started with truly "dead" everything, you might not have much diversity of life in the tank, it is my experience that the best scrubbers work on a tank with a lot of different life.

A skimmer can knock out nitrates pretty well if they are not too high and feeding is not too heavy, I've seen that happen. But once you start to get a lot of bioload and feeding it wont keep up, the opposite is the case with the scrubber. The more diversity in the tank, the better the scrubber performs.

Yup, I tried everything you said, but I still do not have great results (i still need to get pics). Thus the reason for the purchase of a skimmer. It does grow, Just not very well. Not anything like the pics the guy above just posted. I do plan on keeping it running for a bit longer as I like how my display has 0 algae. I STILL cannot get the air in the drain to go away and it really is quite loud. I've tried a couple different overflow drains, none of which work well.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Getting a Durso or Stockman type drain to run quite is almost an art form.

[rog2961]

Getting a Durso or Stockman type drain to run quite is almost an art form.


So it sounds like the 5 minutes I spent setting it up wasnt sufficient enough time to tune the sound? How much more can you change? I have a valve on the air line and have adjusted it pretyt much every way and it still doesn't quiet down.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I don't use that type of drain, BeanAnimal all the way. I'll never go back to anything else.

The only ones that I have seen that are quiet run at really slow rates, and the U over the top has holes in the side of it and there is a breather hole at the top of the pipe to let air in and keep it from flushing, never seen someone run it with a valve. Dunno. Off topic for this thread, might try starting one specifically for your tank (consolidate your threads into one covering all issues)

[SantaMonica]

Green you need to clean the screen completely, and more often. It's dying and falling off.

[greenmachine]

ok santa when you say clean "completely" do you mean one side down to the canvas or both? should I even see the white mesh when done?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I always clean at least 50% of each side down to the canvas and usually only leave a little bit of growth on the screen, over the canvas. Leave the growth that is in the holes in place. If that growth is coming off easily (i.e. less than 25% of the holes are filled after cleaning) then you are waiting too long between cleanings.

If you clean only one side at a time, then I would not go longer than 7 days between alternate cleanings (14 days growth per side) and then clean all the way down to the mat. Then you will likely have to do at least a "squeegee" cleaning of the other side at the same time.

[greenmachine]

ok thanks floyd! I dont know if I will be able to go a full 7 days with how fast this thing has been growing lately! I will post pics tonight of my clean screen so stay tuned!

[greenmachine]

ok ran down and cleaned . look good? looks like a lot of empty holes to me....

[sklywag]

My screen looks a lot like yours before I clean. Maybe not as much yellow. But I have some. I'd clean that screen better. Add something to prevent growth at slot. I use a couple of black plastic pieces to shield the slot from light. And that screen looks like it needs to be roughed up a ton more than it is. I sometimes clean mine with the saw blade or hole saw bit to keep good roughness going.

As for overflow I use Herbie style.

[SantaMonica]

All that stuff at the top has to come off too. Light needs to hit the screen.

[Floyd R Turbo]

1) that is about what I thought, the algae isn't staying in the hole for about 50% of the screen, but in the areas that are filled in, it looks very good. So you're OK still, it'll bounce back quickly (it will continue to grow so you won't have a drop in filtration effectiveness)

2) your screen is plenty rough IMO. Roughness only matters until the holes fill in, once the holes are filled in, then algae grows from the stuff between the holes, and since it grows on both sides, it is sort of self-anchoring to a point on a mature screen.

3) I would also clean the screen 100% at the slot pipe and 2 rows down from it, scrub it out with a stiff brush. You may have a flow restriction going on here as well, that can result in dead spots from channeling due to reduced overall flow

4) the areas where you still have a bit of growth (the blobs of green) are fine this time IMO, because your screen needs to recover a bit. But don't let it go too long between cleanings, and next time, clean that area fully.

we are way off topic on this thread, ugh!

[greenmachine]

ok sorry for the de-rail! lol but thanks for all the help guys!

[sabbath]

ok sorry for the de-rail! lol but thanks for all the help guys!

No problem. It all about getting answers to the help out fellow aquarist. Keep us posted...

[sklywag]

Green. You should have mentioned you were planning a skimmer.

Anyway. I turned my lights back on today and tank looks much much better. Still have algae seems to be some dead just lying on the bottom. Should vacuum it out. Without a way to maintain a constant level where my skimmer is, it's hard to tell of it's actually having an effect on system.

Before changing out sumps. I need to brace stand in order to cut out center brace to fit longer sump. I've been just adjusting skimmer manually. When I remember of course.

[sabbath]

Man I don't know how you guys that run with just a ATS do it.

My 20g Fag tank is running with a L2 and only one Wrasse fish. I feed about 1/2 a cub a day and the one rock in it is full of algae. The corals look okay. I clean one side of the screen a week and get a good solid 1/4" of dense dark green algae on it. Oh and no PWC Still.

My 180g SPS tank Is running with a L4 and a Skimmer and gets a 10% PWC every 6 week or so. If I go more then about 7 days without running carbon (rox8) I get a green slim start to build up on some of the rocks. This also happens if I run the skimmer part time as well. The corals are still looking good with good color. Better then the Frag tank.

[mess7777]

Going with no skimmer for well over a year. My ATS took a very long time to reach equilibrium. Now it does a good job, my N and P has been 0 for over 6 months....well 0 as far as test kits are concerned. now SM doesn't have to post that there is still some there. ;)

Anyway, I only clean mine about 1 time a month, when growth gets really thick. I also still have cheato which continues to do well in spite of predictions otherwise. The beauty of ATS for me is that once the equilibrium is found the scruber grows faster or slower as needed.

However, I am plagued with a problem of bad polyp extension on my SPS...which I can't quite case. Thinking of trying a skimmer to see if it helps.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Never owned a skimmer.

Started reefing 3 years ago and have only ever used live rock & scrubbers (of different designs).

The only water changes I have done in that time have been when I changed my tank and once when I had a flood due to a blocked overflow each of those were perhaps 10%

Nitrate always tests zero. Phosphate usually tests zero and the highest test result I have had was 0.03 (Hanna meter).

Have had issues with display tank algae but pretty much have that clear now.

In three years I have lost 2 fish. One clown which was killed by another fish and a dwarf angel that jumped out. No corals lost (although I only keep softies)

[sabbath]

Never owned a skimmer.

Started reefing 3 years ago and have only ever used live rock & scrubbers (of different designs).

The only water changes I have done in that time have been when I changed my tank and once when I had a flood due to a blocked overflow each of those were perhaps 10%

Nitrate always tests zero. Phosphate usually tests zero and the highest test result I have had was 0.03 (Hanna meter).

Have had issues with display tank algae but pretty much have that clear now.

In three years I have lost 2 fish. One clown which was killed by another fish and a dwarf angel that jumped out. No corals lost (although I only keep softies)

I'm interested in seeing pics of tanks run long term like this!

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I'm interested in seeing pics of tanks run long term like this!


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59581966/Tank/2013-09-15%2023.13.12.jpg


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59581966/Tank/2013-09-15%2023.13.37.jpg

[sabbath]

Nice, Looks very clean! The corals look a little brown though. I wonder if you would benefit from more light or more hours a day.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Nice, Looks very clean! The corals look a little brown though. I wonder if you would benefit from more light or more hours a day.


Most of them are Kenya Trees (spreads like weed, have to keep pulling it out) which are always brown. The finger leathers have both been moved recently so they're adjusting and not at their best - usually they are much more extended and a lighter cream colour. Other than that it's mostly zoas and green star polyps which are their natural colours. The green stars have started to spread about recently, little new colonies popping up at random. No idea why, they never have before.

Been getting a load of coralline growth lately & the tank's taking a lot more calcium than it has before. Again, no idea why.


My T5 tubes are getting on a bit. Been considering assembling my own LEDs to replace.

[mess7777]

Going with no skimmer for well over a year. My ATS took a very long time to reach equilibrium. Now it does a good job, my N and P has been 0 for over 6 months....well 0 as far as test kits are concerned. now SM doesn't have to post that there is still some there. ;)

Anyway, I only clean mine about 1 time a month, when growth gets really thick. I also still have cheato which continues to do well in spite of predictions otherwise. The beauty of ATS for me is that once the equilibrium is found the scruber grows faster or slower as needed.

However, I am plagued with a problem of bad polyp extension on my SPS...which I can't quite case. Thinking of trying a skimmer to see if it helps.


Just a little update here. I put my crappy skimmer back online, and almost immediately saw improvements for the whole tank. After just two week I am starting to see some polyps were there has been nothing for months. Also some LPS are starting to look more vibrant, and zoas look better too. This is only my experience....and possibly an air stone would do the same work...but I won't go skimmerless again.

[Floyd R Turbo]

....and possibly an air stone would do the same work...

You can find out. Just adjust your skimmer to skim nothing, just spin bubbles around and see if it stays looking that way.

[Mud]

I think I over-skim. I have a 4-cube scrubber, and for the past couple weeks I haven't been feeding that much and it grows brown. I've also been messing around with vitamin C, which is a weak form of carbon dosing, hence the over-skimming. I need to stay away from that stuff and go back to basics. I kept fighting STN on my SPS by trying to make my water cleaner, but I think I really should have been going the opposite direction! I'm going to let the bags of carbon in my system become exhausted and then run without it for a while, cut back on my skimming, and let the scrubber bulk back up. I want to invest in a Hanna Checker to make sure that phosphates aren't an issue (never used GFO or anything, always just "trusted" my scrubber, but something somewhere obviously isn't working).

I'm also starting the Red Sea Colors program to balance my ions, minerals, and jazz. The fact that it's based on testing of I, Fe, and K as indicators of related elements appeals to me much more than some other trace element products on the market. I've heard anecdotal praise of K for solving a lot of SPS problems. The kit came with lots of free samples of Red Sea Reef Energy A and B, too. Maybe that can give my SPS the nutrition they need until the scrubber rebounds.

Mess7777, I've been thinking about putting an air pump outside my house and bubbling fresh air into my system. I would get a skimmer with a venturi to run outside, but like I said, I fear I'm over-skimming as it is.