Dosing Fe question

[joelespinoza]

I still have bubble algae issues, which I have heard do not seem as iron dependent as many algae are, and my sump algae is now leaning more towards brown then green so I figure its definitely time I start dosing iron. I also have not done a real water change in close to 2 years. Anyone have a recommended amount of iron for scrubbed tanks that dont get water changes, and all nutrient export is via algae growth? I have a fair amount of macro algae and a couple mangroves as well.

RHF seems to advocate putting 27 mg ferrous gluconate (1 fergon tablet) in 20 ml of water and then dosing about 1 ml of that solution a day for a 300 gallon system, but that the exact dosage isnt critical. Do does 1 mg/day sound about right for a 90 gallon scrubbed system? Or should I be dosing more?

I found 8 oz. food grade ferrous gluconate for $14 + $7 shipping: http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=1&ReturnOption1=cats&ReturnEdit=2&Returnitemname=&ReturnShowItemStart=

Does that stuff look ok for iron dosing in a reef tank?

1 oz = 28,349.5 mg, 8 oz = 226,796 mg. So even if I was dosing 2 mg a day, 8 oz should last me over 600 years......

[kotlec]

There is very good article on Fe by Randy Holmes. Just google it. All your questions answered.

[SantaMonica]

Brown algae does not mean it needs iron. Bright yellow does.

[joelespinoza]

There is very good article on Fe by Randy Holmes. Just google it. All your questions answered.

I have read them all, thats where I got that guideline, RHF is short for Randy Holmes-Farley. I just wanted to double check and make sure that was the right stuff, and I wanted to know if that dosage is about right in the experience of algae scrubber users. Randy's recommendation was most likely not for someone using only algae based nutrient export for all their filtering.



Brown algae does not mean it needs iron. Bright yellow does.

I am referring to my sump algae and macro algae looking brownish, but my algae scrubber has never been bright green either, it is usually a faded yellowish brown color. Also since my macro algae and scrubber have not been doing as well lately, I am thinking that the lack of iron may be holding them back from out competing the bubble algae in my display. Either way, this tank has been running for 2 years with no iron supplement added, and a whole lot of algae removed.

I should have mentioned that my tank is a 55 with a 40 sump, so a bit less then 90 total and I feed 1 cube a day. I also have VERY bright display tank LED lighting, and pretty powerful sump lighting as well.

[Floyd R Turbo]

What are N, P, K at?

[joelespinoza]

N and P are below measurable levels, I have no way to test potassium.

[SantaMonica]

Things are fine. If you want to watch green grow, dump a handful of powdered zooplankton in. In the following days your scrubber will explode.

[joelespinoza]

Things are fine. If you want to watch green grow, dump a handful of powdered zooplankton in. In the following days your scrubber will explode.

I know you are a cut and dried kinda guy, and that you give the answer that is most usually correct in your experience, but things are not really fine, if they were I would not have so much algae in my display tank. I am not considering dosing iron just because my scrubber is not bright green, I am considering dosing because I feel my macro algae and scrubber are not out competing my DT algae well enough.

I am also considering dosing Vitamin C in order to make my corals more light tolerant, so I can turn up my DT light, but I dont want my DT lighting any brighter before I get rid of the algae problem I have.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would order the Salifert K (potassium) kit and test that. If you are growing a lot of algae throughout the tank and not doing any PWCs, I bet you dollars to donuts that you are low. Dose Brightwell Potassion-P (powdered) if it is.

[joelespinoza]

=P more test kits..... I guess I will have to wait until I get more money.

I was just thinking that low iron is a common problem in scrubbed reef tanks, and that I could spend $21 and take care of that possible issue for life. I guess I will wait until later if I am going to have to spend upwards of $100 to start diagnosing this issue. I suppose I should just wait until I have some money and buy a new RODI filter set and $60 worth the reef salt and juist start doing some water changes.

[SantaMonica]

Iron can't be limiting in one place and not in another. It's just a simple case of the scrubber being too weak.

If you want to post complete pics of your tank and scrubber we can look at it again.

[joelespinoza]

Iron can't be limiting in one place and not in another. It's just a simple case of the scrubber being too weak.

If you want to post complete pics of your tank and scrubber we can look at it again.

Sometimes you are REALLY frustrating.....

As I said at the beginning, I have lots of bubble algae growth, and slower macro/hair algae growth, AND I have read a couple places that bubble algae seems less iron limited then other types of algae. Since my algae scrubber is SERIOUSLY overpowered for the amount I feed (not even including my sump macro algae, which alone ahould be more then plenty) and yet the type of algae in my scrubber cant out compete the type of algae I am having issues with in my display, that leads me to believe that the bubble algae in my display has some hidden advantage.

Perhaps bubble algae needs less iron then scrubber hair algae, or perhaps less potassium, or perhaps the sight of my face in the mornings when the lights comes on scares it into reproducing, I dont know for sure. However, I do know that iron can be a limiting factor in scrubber growth and macro algae growth, and that I have removed a whole lot of scrubber algae and macro algae, that probably contained a lot of iron, and have never added any back in, except the small amount I feed.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I literally never add iron to any of my tanks with scrubbers, and each tank produces varying amounts of algae. I'm not completely sure that iron limitation is your issue.

[SantaMonica]

If you have macros in the sump that are surviving, your scrubber is weak, no matter if it has 1 million watts.

[Greenchaos]

But macroalgae and single cell algae can assimilate organic substances, can't they? So even if the inorganics test low, it may be that the N & P is bound organically, and this would then be scavenged by the bubble algae perhaps.

[joelespinoza]

I literally never add iron to any of my tanks with scrubbers, and each tank produces varying amounts of algae. and not completely sure that iron limitation is your issue.

I am not sure that Iron is the limitation, I just wanted to try it and see if it helped, but I wanted an idea of what other people here had done with it first. Now I know that you have success without any iron addition, and I assume no water changes in some of those tanks, its probably not my limiting factor.


If you have macros in the sump that are surviving, your scrubber is weak, no matter if it has 1 million watts.

That is pretty much your only answer to everything, and while I will say that nothing as complex as a reef system is ever that simple, I am not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you about my scrubber, that has been fruitless for both of us in past. My current scrubber is one of Floyds early L2 models, that had been modified to have 12 deep red LEDs, 4 royal blues, runs 16 hours a day and flows ~600GPH, I check it every couple days and usually clean it weekly. Now, if you want to argue with Floyd that my scrubber is not capable of handling 1 cube a day of food, that is up to you two, but I imagine that he would disagree with your estimation that it is underpowered.

[Greenchaos]

I am not sure that Iron is the limitation, I just wanted to try it and see if it helped, but I wanted an idea of what other people here had done with it first. Now I know that you have success without any iron addition, and I assume no water changes in some of those tanks, its probably not my limiting factor.



That is pretty much your only answer to everything, and while I will say that nothing as complex as a reef system is ever that simple, I am not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you about my scrubber, that has been fruitless for both of us in past. My current scrubber is one of Floyds early L2 models, that had been modified to have 12 deep red LEDs, 4 royal blues, runs 16 hours a day and flows ~600GPH, I check it every couple days and usually clean it weekly. Now, if you want to argue with Floyd that my scrubber is not capable of handling 1 cube a day of food, that is up to you two, but I imagine that he would disagree with your estimation that it is underpowered.

I was under the impression that Floyds scrubbers are the dogs danglies. Not a weak scrubber, probably the best :)

[joelespinoza]

I was under the impression that Floyds scrubbers are the dogs danglies. Not a weak scrubber, probably the best :)

Floyds scrubber is great, I have nothing but good things to say about it even though mine is an older model. I am sure his newer ones work even better.

My issue is that my macro sump growth, and my GHA scrubber growth are slowing down recently, while my bubble algae is plodding along at the same speed as ever. It doesnt grow fast, but it just keeps growing steadily. In the last 6 months I have completely torn apart the entire DT twice to manually remove all the bubble algae I can, and even then it just keeps coming, slowly but surely.

I also get a small amount of short (1") tough hair algae, its green, but clearly not the normal GHA, it never grows very tall. It doesnt really bother me, but it is the only algae tbt grows in the DT besides the bubble algae.

[SantaMonica]

I have completely torn apart the entire DT

This alone will cause tremendous amounts of nutrients to be added to the water, because you kill the periphyton on the rock, and the sponges etc in the rocks, which then decay slowly over the following month. You should never move rocks, flow, or light.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would differ with you on 'tremendous amounts of nutrients'. I would say that it would cause a partial cycle and would require a period of re-adjustment.

Joel's choice is between 2 evils: leave the DT alone with bubble algae decimating everything, or get rid of it and partially re-boot the tank. I've done the latter on several occasions to tanks in poor condition.

[joelespinoza]

This alone will cause tremendous amounts of nutrients to be added to the water, because you kill the periphyton on the rock, and the sponges etc in the rocks, which then decay slowly over the following month. You should never move rocks, flow, or light.

That doesnt really work as an answer though. Sure you could say that me tearing apart the display to remove the MASSIVE amount of bubble algae is what caused the bubble algae in the first place..... Well.... No... You cant say that, although it appears you are trying to.

Anyway, I will try to check potassium when I can afford to. Other then Floyd having success without adding iron, does anyone have anything to add on the subject of iron dosing? Any positive or negaive results with dosing and how much you dosed?

[Greenchaos]

I've dosed iron (ok, probably not deficient anyway), no change in anything.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Whenever I've dosed Kent Iron & Manganese I've never noticed a difference. I've also heard that it is nearly impossible to maintain measurable levels of iron in saltwater

[joelespinoza]

Here are pictures of my tank and the algae I have going on: https://pictures.lytro.com/JoelEspinoza/stories/137534

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ohhhh man. You have a Lytro. You just made me Mega jealous

[SantaMonica]

Looks fine to me. Any algae stands will probably go away.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok now I had a chance to look at all of these on my PC instead of my phone. It was hard to see at first but yeah, you've really got a bubble algae problem still. I see turfs of GHA also but those are less of a worry I think. Besides that, do you have a sort of scummy greyish algae on the rest of the rocks? Hard to tell from the pics. Apparently a lytro suffers from the same problems as other digital cameras under LED light (I assume you are running LEDs at least)...

[Floyd R Turbo]

Looks fine to me. Any algae stands will probably go away.

Dang, really? Insightful comment. Were you looking at the same pictures I was? Did you remember which thread you were posting to? Wow.

[joelespinoza]

I will try to take some more tonight with less blue. The Lytro is better than my phone by a long shot, but the LEDs still play hell with cameras, and I had just cleaned off the glass, so the water was a bit foggy.

The tufts of hair/turf algae are not a big deal, they dont really grow much and they are pretty much in one small area in my tank, the area that gets sun when I open my curtains, which is probably not a coincidence.

The bubble algae is the severe issue, it completely covers any area that gets any light if left alone long enough. Anything not covered is only that way because I removed it.

[joelespinoza]

if you click on these photobucket has a media options menu on the right where you can download the full size version to zoom in better.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_1952000.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_1952000.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_195209.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_195209.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_195223.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_195223.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_1951441.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/Aquarium%20Stuff/20131027_1951441.jpg.html)

[SantaMonica]

Maybe its the light, but the apparently large amount of coralline, plus the localized tufts of rock algae, lead me to belive that P is low in the water, and P is coming out of the rocks. Bubble algae will do its own thing until nutrients are further gone.

[joelespinoza]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_223726_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_223726_69thSt.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_223800_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_223800_69thSt.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_223832_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_223832_69thSt.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_223822_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_223822_69thSt.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_223808_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_223808_69thSt.jpg.html)

From Petco:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/JoelEspinoza/20131030_220403_69thSt.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/JoelEspinoza/media/20131030_220403_69thSt.jpg.html)

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/Garf1971/33cb01e764bd53fbcb15b0b2556331ad_zpsd53728e2.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Yes looks like it's coming out of the rock.

[joelespinoza]

I think it only accumulates best on the rocks because they are so rough. It grows anywhere there is light and flow. I still grow rock free macro algae and hair algae in my sump. I took out about a gallon earlier this week.