Dual Screen Horizontal Scrubber

[routestomarket]

Due to popular demand I have taken some pics and built my scrubber in Sketch Up to share my experiences.

Due to current set up and space constraints I decided to go down the horizontal route for my scrubber.

One thing I wanted to avoid was a poor performing scrubber so I opted for a design which had two scrubbers with one effectively running on to the other.

http://www.routestomarket.co.uk/images/images/scrubber.jpg

This picture shows the inlet and the layout of the two screens and the lights. The lights are placed on a glass sheet which is about 2-4", allowing for the incline, above the screen.

http://www.routestomarket.co.uk/images/images/scrubber1.jpg

Here is a different angle shot.

http://www.routestomarket.co.uk/images/images/scrubber3.jpg

And this image shows the waterline. The second screen sits just below the water level which means the scrubbers is silent.

Its hard to take actual photos due to the covering on the tank but I have taken a cople of shots of the screen:

http://www.routestomarket.co.uk/images/images/scrubber4.jpg

http://www.routestomarket.co.uk/images/images/scrubber5.jpg

The large scrubber was cleaned on sunday and the small on yesterday.

You cant really see from the photo but the small screen which has reduced water flow over some of its surface is producing tough green algae and the larger one is producing the same and a darker algae.

I originally intended changing the second screen to ensure the flow was consistent across its surface but the different algae got my attention.

On saturday whrn I clean the larger screen I will get some shots for you all and I would welcome any comments you may have.

Keith

ps apologies for the links but the img command didnt work with picassa, anyone with suggestions to fix this will be welcomed!
sorted!

[ThePisces]

Hi, have been looking into making a horizontal scrubber as I think it's easier to light and less splashing.

Are you still using two sheets of plastic canvas sandwiched together?

I have a sheet of opaque acrylic about an 1/8th inch thick which I may use as the base for the screens to lay on, it will also at as a reflector to some degree.

I have a DSB with some macros growing in it, so the acrylic sheet will block most of the light to the DSB and macros and it will slowly die off I assume? But as the ATS will eventually out compete the macros I guess they would die off anyway due to lack of nutrients?

My only concern is would there be a detrimental effect on the DSB and the various bugs and critters that live in it, due to the reduction of light? Just wondered if you might know or anyone else that reads this reply?

Cheers, John

[routestomarket]

I am using a very rough gouged and generally abused sheet of acrylic with a single layer of mesh.

I was using the acrylic alone with good results and added the mesh recently and it exploded with growth! I tried two sheets but I didn't like what it did to water flow as the top layer was out of the water.

With regards to the DSB I don't think the critters will be affected too muc as the DSB doesn't IMO need light as it will not penetrate that far in.

I too have a DSB below my screens and it has only had a positive effect on critter populatio, check out my thread on bio diversity.

Hope this helps!

[ThePisces]

Hi, great thanks for that bit of info. I meant to ask if you had a DSB but you answered it for me. I see what you mean about two screens and the upper one being lifted clear of the flow, good point. I read the bit on Bio-diversity, seems nothing but positive results from these algae scrubber contraptions!

My system is about 120 uk gallons including the sump which is 36x15x18 inches I will only be able to use the central area to install my scrubber.The screens I have are 13.5 x10.5 inches ( from Hobbycraft ) which give me approx 142 sq inches per side. I think will have to make the secondary screen smaller like yours to be able to fit it all in and get light to it, so it should be more than enough surface area?

I have a NuJet 1700 which give 1700l per hour 374 gallons per hour, if thats not enough then the Ocean Runner 2500 thats currently running the skimmer will come into play.

Many thanks for the info

John

[kcress]

Are there actually pictures? Wonder why I can't see them..

[SantaMonica]

Congrats on getting your scrubber up and running.


Due to current set up and space constraints I decided to go down the horizontal route for my scrubber.

A horizontal takes up more room, not less, for the same processing.


One thing I wanted to avoid was a poor performing scrubber so I opted for a design which had two scrubbers with one effectively running on to the other.

You actually described how to make a less-performing design, not a more-performing one. A more-performing design has high flow, near lights, and a wide but short screen (the opposite of what you have). Also, having one screen dump to the next is just providing already-filtered water to the next one. A two-sided vertical screen would provide the same filtering in 1/5 the space that you have here, and with 1/3 the wattage.

Your lights need to come down, to within 4" of the screen. A single bulb at this distance would provide the same filtering as the 6 bulbs you have now.


You cant really see from the photo but the small screen which has reduced water flow over some of its surface is producing tough green algae and the larger one is producing the same and a darker algae.

This is because you have variable light, and variable flow, across the screen. In other words, much of your scrubber is doing nothing at all... just taking up space... which is the opposite of what you were trying to do (save space).


Hi, have been looking into making a horizontal scrubber as I think it's easier to light and less splashing.

No, it's not easier to light PROPERLY. It's actually difficult to get the bulbs to within 4" of the screen, all the way across, on a horizontal design. Also, if horizontal, you'll need TWICE the size since it's just one-sided. Lastly, flow is very difficult to get even and rapid. Slow, variable flow will actually cause problems, since the water will divert easily, and allow sections of new growth to die-off.


But as the ATS will eventually out compete the macros I guess they would die off anyway due to lack of nutrients?

If you do a horizontal with weak lighting, it will not out-complete. It will not be strong enough.


I was using the acrylic alone with good results and added the mesh recently and it exploded with growth!

Yes, because the algae does not let go as easy. Two layers is even better. Roughed up like a cactus is best.


I tried two sheets but I didn't like what it did to water flow as the top layer was out of the water.

Because you have low flow, which is the norm for a horizontal design. That is another reason why they need to be much larger that vertical designs... because they are weaker.


My system is about 120 uk gallons including the sump which is 36x15x18 inches I will only be able to use the central area to install my scrubber.The screens I have are 13.5 x10.5 inches

You only need one of those screens, vertically, to do the filtering. If horizontal, you'd need at least two, preferably three.

[ThePisces]

If a pump is pushing out 'X' amount of water it does not matter if the outlet is verticle or horizontal...gravity is not going to pull more water through the pump wether horizontal or verticle...is it? The emitted water, once it is going over the screen may fall quicker in a verticle ATS but in a horiontal design the water physically cannot escape as quickly so surely the water build up is more turbulent once algae has grown? What has a rougher flow of water, a waterfall or rapids? The verticle design is having to split the pumps output over two sides, not one, so is it not logical that each side on a verticle design is getting half the flow that any given pump produces per side? Surely a horizontal design is getting the pumps full flow rate over one side? Am I missing something here? I can see that a verticle design takes up less space....other than you have to find space for lights on both sides of the screen that are going to be at a maximum 8 inches apart and there's going to be more splashing and noise, dependant I admit, upon actual design. A horizontal design has all the lights on one side so you are getting the same intensity of lighting but it's all on one side..more light equals more growth? On a verticle design each side is getting just half the light per side of a horizontal ATS. Maybe my maths needs a bit of a scrub up...no pun intended :lol: If it's turbulance that makes the algae grow then just add a few obsticles to hinder the flow of water, ie plastic pegs, square, round ,triangular, just like boulders in a river = White Water.

All commercial scrubbers I have seen, sewage, swimming pools etc are of a horizontal design allowing maximum contact time between the contaminated water and the algae. As with protein skimmers the contact time between the micro bubbles and the contaminated water is what gets the resultant foam. Also with UV sterilizers, exposure time of the water to the UV light is what makes it work, too fast a flow and it will not be efficient and you will be wasting your electricity!

Just a little food for thought, check this commercial ATS site out...all horizontal http://www.algalturfscrubber.com/point.htm An interesting read about Global warming too.

At the end of the day I guess the proof of the pudding is in the tasting? If it works don't fix it :!:

[SantaMonica]

If a pump is pushing out 'X' amount of water it does not matter if the outlet is verticle or horizontal...gravity is not going to pull more water through the pump wether horizontal or verticle...is it?

It's now how much water comes out of the pipe; it's how thin and rapid it is. Vertical is much thinner and more rapid.


What has a rougher flow of water, a waterfall or rapids?

Waterfall. You will not get "rapids" in a horizontal. And it's not how rough it is on the surface; it's how rough it is at the screen.


The verticle design is having to split the pumps output over two sides, not one, so is it not logical that each side on a verticle design is getting half the flow that any given pump produces per side?

How much water has nothing to do with how rapid it is. Vertical keeps it thin and rapid. Horizontal keeps it in a puddle.


Surely a horizontal design is getting the pumps full flow rate over one side?

Yes but's it's usually a puddle, unless you tilt it up 45 degrees or more.


there's going to be more splashing and noise,

There is no noise if done properly. And a horizontal will probably splash more.


A horizontal design has all the lights on one side so you are getting the same intensity of lighting but it's all on one side..more light equals more growth?

Provided you have the flow. And provided the light NEAR the screen. It's just now being understood how important flow and a rough screen are.


If it's turbulance that makes the algae grow then just add a few obsticles to hinder the flow of water,

This would stop the scrubber altogether.


All commercial scrubbers I have seen, sewage, swimming pools etc are of a horizontal design allowing maximum contact time between the contaminated water and the algae.

They have endless sunlight, and real estate, to make up for weak filtering.


All commercial scrubbers I have seen, sewage, swimming pools etc are of a horizontal design allowing maximum contact time between the contaminated water and the algae.

With scrubbers, it laminar flow.


Also with UV sterilizers, exposure time of the water to the UV light is what makes it work, too fast a flow and it will not be efficient and you will be wasting your electricity!

See here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=286 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=286)

[kcress]

ThePisces; Don't be deswaded. I commend your efforts and hope you proceed. Only thru different topologies will we arrive at various effective choices for TS. One type will never be the 'for all systems' solution.

I think that if you have little vertical space available then it matters not that vertical scrubber is more surface efficient. It may still be a non-starter.

I also think that the jury is still out on horizontal scrubbers. Nixing them outright because vertical plastic screens work well is not conducive to improving the subject of turf scrubbers or making available horizontal ones useful in some physical locations.

Flowing one screen onto another is not going to be detectably less efficient. The amount of nutrient take up is only a VERY tiny amount of nutrients on any particular pass across the screen. You could not measure the difference in the prescreen verse post screen concentrations. It is the fact that there are endless passes that provides for the continuous reduction in nutrient levels.

Turbulent pulsed flow is going to exchange more boundary layer water than fast laminar flow. This is why Adey went that way.

Single sided screens are no less efficient than two sided screens. They have the same surface area. They need the same light intensity. You need two times the water. I'm not even convinced they are more space efficient. Having light fixtures on both sides make two sided verticals bulky.

Keep us posted ThePisces!

[ThePisces]

Thank you Kcress for your 'Positive' comments in which you have not dismissed what industry and other scrubbers have found in using the horizontal design. If verticle was greatly more efficient then why has industry with all the space and goverment funding they have, not gone down that route?

Verticle scrubbers are as you rightly say 'Bulky' due to lights on both sides. The fact remains that horizontal scrubbers have all the flow on one side and not divided over two sides and all the lighting is on one side.To light a verticle screen to the same intensity as a horizontal screen you would need twice the number of bulbs or higher wattage bulbs ($$$) With a slight incline as in Worley's a 30 degree design ( closer to horizontal than verticle) seems to work fine as do others (Routestomarket) who adopt the horizontal version. A horizontal screen angled across a sump is going to have the same if not greater surface area compared to a double sided verticle screen in the same sized sump if height is restricted which it usually is, because you have a whopping great aquarium above it!

How do you measure the size of a television screen? Across the horizontal, top corner to bottom corner, not verticle. That gives you more than double the verticle height. My 4 x 2 x 2 ft aquarium has a horizontal (top corner to bottom corner) measurement of approximatley 52 inches. The verticle is 24 inches. So surface area is greater in a horizontal design even if you double the verticle.

The area my sump allows for a horizontal screen is 22in x 12 in. That gives me a surface area (one side only) of 264 sq inches. Which in my case ( allowing 1sq inch per gallon) gives me an excess of 144 sq inches of screen, or 2.2 sq inches of screen processing per gallon!

Far from being put off from the horizontal design I will continue with an 'Open' approach to design and appreciate any constructive comments like yours on both verticle and horizontal designs. At the end of the day I doubt very much that there is any significant performance difference between the two options. If the nutrient levels are not detectable or very minimal you have achieved what you set out to do....Scrub!

Kind regards,
The Pisces

[AlgaeNator]

Well I like the design idea overall, maybe you could spill the top screen onto the TOP of the other screen... instead of on the middle of it? Seems like you are wasting a lot of surface area?

I think what SM was getting at is that for OUR use Vertical is more efficient use of space. As MOST people dont have room under the tank stand above or around the sump to put a horizontal scrubber in without covering other important items. vertical one for REEF tank users, that want to put it under the STAND utilized the limited space much more efficiently because you get TWICE the surface area on each side, and it can be place above the sump out of the water. Also this allows you to place your lighting HIGHER up away from other water splashing in your sump from other items, like skimmers, and other pumps etc.

I would have

[ThePisces]

Hi, have not built my ATS yet , possibly getting my postings mixed up with the photos of Routestomarket? He has built his already and is getting excellent results, no Nitrates, Phosphates,etc etc and an explosion of pods and other critters.

I have been looking at the websites of a few US based industrial ATS manufactures and it makes intersting reading. All seem to use an inclined slope which is impervious.It is then covered with a grid on which the algae develops. They use Pulsed Laminar Flow. In a FAQ on one site it was asked what the depth of water was..."Usually less than one inch" with a contact time of between 7 and 12 mins depending on the length of the Flow-way" Now I'm no rocket scientist but that hardly sounds as if the water is flowing at the rate of a waterfall, does it? Yes it's the accumalative effect of the many passes of water going over the algae which removes the nutrients so why is a high flow rate in a verticle design any more efficient than a slower flow rate in a horizontal design?

I fully appreciate what SM is saying with regards space but am perplexed as to this opinion that a verticle design is more turbulant and efficient? Gravity is constantly pulling/flattening everything on this planet, that includes the flow of water. In a verticle design I can see that if the output pipe is not 'truly verticle' gravity would effectively be trying to pull the flow of water away from the screen? However in a horizontal design the water would naturally be getting pulled against the roughed up screen and create more, not less turbulance, albeit a slower flow of water. Turbulance + Light+ Nutrients = Algae?

I think it comes down to personal choice what design we make and that no one design is better than the other.

Always appreciate other people views and opinions in a constructive positive manner.

The Pisces, (John)

[routestomarket]

I wanted to wait until cleaning day to put my response up here.

Initially I was a little put off by the elitist comments regarding my design but at the end of the day every mans opinion is his own and looking through this and other sites, horizontal scrubbers seem to be very efficient Kcress' and Worleys for example.

Lets just keep to the nice side of sharing our information and results for the benefits of everyone.

The reason for my design was that I had a overtank sump to play with to set my scrubber off. I have no space under the tank and my other half would not allow a bucket on a shelf! (Women eh!)

I have been tinkering with the design since june when my first incarnation pics went up which were met with great encouragement, check the thread UK Based Horizontal Scrubber.

Following the advice from Worley and Kcress I have made thier suggested changes and others and to my mind have achieved great results, ie. no phosphates, no nitrate, nitrates or ammonia and a constant PH of 8.4 which has always been my personal white whale.

As you can see from the pic below I have hit algae nirvana with what is described on Kcress' earlier post as 'proper turf algae':
[attachment=2:21urqcp1]cleaning-4.jpg[/attachment:21urqcp1]

here are some other shots of the full screen and an unfortunately blurry one of the sheet underneath:
[attachment=1:21urqcp1]cleaning-1.jpg[/attachment:21urqcp1]
[attachment=0:21urqcp1]cleaning-2.jpg[/attachment:21urqcp1]

I have one more which ?i will put on the next reply!

[routestomarket]

[attachment=0:3aqb0ncu]cleaning-3.jpg[/attachment:3aqb0ncu]

The turf you can see is budding all over the screen and in fact is more prelevant on the second screen which was described as useless. I will post some pics of this on wednesday on that screens cleaning day.

All in all I think the ATS is a brilliant idea but it needs to be embraced as a concept and not a unequivocal unchangeable method and it is obvious from sites such as this that a vertical scrubber in some instances does not get the wanted results and maybe in some cirumstances, although different, a horizontal one may work.

I am not saying either one is better, I just know mine works al lot better than i would have liked to anticipate and it is this I am sharing on here so others may take some of my ideas and use them themselves to good effect!

Hope someone finds this info useful and good luck in your endeavours!


"UK Scrubbers do it horizontally!" (T-Shirts coming soon! :lol: )

[ThePisces]

Hi, fantastic results using your HORIZONTAL scrubber, good to see all that real turf algae growing happily!

[SantaMonica]

Turbulent pulsed flow is going to exchange more boundary layer water than fast laminar flow.

True, but the other tradeoff's are too great to warrant using a surge as I advocated in the past. It's been tried, but it did not provide any extra measurable results for the aquariums that were being filtered.


This is why Adey went that way.

Maybe true, although you'd have to personally ask him if he was aware of a vertical option at the time.


Single sided screens are no less efficient than two sided screens.

But they are, in terms of flow. Horizontal inherently has slower, thicker, flow for the same gph. So to make up for it, you need more gph.


They have the same surface area.

But, many times the area is not covered in flow, because just a small growth of algae will block the remaining flow. With vertical, it will flow right over the algae. Also, as in your design, flow sometimes has trouble reaching the corners.


If verticle was greatly more efficient then why has industry with all the space and goverment funding they have, not gone down that route?

Because it would cost the govermnet a lot more tax dollars to build scrubbers 300 feet high, not to mention the pumping power required.


Verticle scrubbers are as you rightly say 'Bulky' due to lights on both sides.

Not if you use T5's, near the screen. In a horizontal design, you STILL have to get your light near to the screen, and you have to do it with twice (or more, due to inefficient flow) of the area.


To light a verticle screen to the same intensity as a horizontal screen you would need twice the number of bulbs or higher wattage bulbs ($$$)

But you are forgetting that you still need TWICE the area for a horizontal.


A horizontal screen angled across a sump is going to have the same if not greater surface area compared to a double sided verticle screen in the same sized sump if height is restricted which it usually is

Mine is only 6" tall. How tall is yours including the light?


So surface area is greater in a horizontal design even if you double the verticle.

I'm not understanding this.


The area my sump allows for a horizontal screen is 22in x 12 in. That gives me a surface area (one side only) of 264 sq inches. Which in my case ( allowing 1sq inch per gallon) gives me an excess of 144 sq inches of screen, or 2.2 sq inches of screen processing per gallon

Ok this is a good horizontal size to start with, as long as flow is even and rapid (and does not get blocked by growth), and also as long as the light is strong all the way across the screen.


At the end of the day I doubt very much that there is any significant performance difference between the two options.

There is a huge difference, when things like algae-blocking or screen-waviness occur, which re-directs all the flow once a little growth occurs.

I'm not against horizontal... I posted builds of them, and we even made the worlds first horizontal nano scrubber right here in the office. But I have to make sure that the average person who builds a scrubber will have strong filtering and good success with their display. So I only recommend what get's reported to me as successful. The horizontal designs are touchy, and over half of the time, they don't work at all due to the operator. And, they take up the whole top of the sump. Verticals, however, work every time as long as you can cut the slot in the pipe (I don't recommend drilled holes). Remember, hundreds of people have reported their builds on my threads alone, and I hear all the stories. Horizontals just have much more problems (for the average person) than verticals. It is possible to get a horizontal working properly, but it takes more skill, and more coverage of the sump.

As for success of one vs. the other, you will never know unless you build one, use it for a year, then remove it and use the other for a year. If you only build a horizontal, and your display algae or nutrients never go away, then you won't know if a vertical would have done better (for the SAME gph, watts, and space). The purpose of my reporting the results of other builders is to show what happened to hundreds of others when THEY tried it. Many have tried horizontals, but only a few kept them. Building and operating a horizontal simply leaves less room for errors.

[routestomarket]

freudian slip perhaps? :lol:

"Building and operating a horizontal simply leaves less room for errors." SantaMonica

[ThePisces]

Thank you Kcress for your 'Positive' comments in which you have not dismissed what industry and other scrubbers have found in using the horizontal design. If verticle was greatly more efficient then why has industry with all the space and goverment funding they have, not gone down that route?

Verticle scrubbers are as you rightly say 'Bulky' due to lights on both sides. The fact remains that horizontal scrubbers have all the flow on one side and not divided over two sides and all the lighting is on one side.To light a verticle screen to the same intensity as a horizontal screen you would need twice the number of bulbs or higher wattage bulbs ($$$) With a slight incline as in Worley's a 30 degree design ( closer to horizontal than verticle) seems to work fine as do others (Routestomarket) who adopt the horizontal version. A horizontal screen angled across a sump is going to have the same if not greater surface area compared to a double sided verticle screen in the same sized sump if height is restricted which it usually is, because you have a whopping great aquarium above it!

How do you measure the size of a television screen? Across the horizontal, top corner to bottom corner, not verticle. That gives you more than double the verticle height. My 4 x 2 x 2 ft aquarium has a horizontal (top corner to bottom corner) measurement of approximatley 52 inches. The verticle is 24 inches. So surface area is greater in a horizontal design even if you double the verticle. I think there is some cofusion here with regards what is meant by a horizontal design. I will totally agree that a true horizontal design would have poor flow. When we are saying horizontal I mean with an incline but no more than 45 degrees.

The area my sump allows for a horizontal screen is 22in x 12 in. That gives me a surface area (one side only) of 264 sq inches. Which in my case ( allowing 1sq inch per gallon) gives me an excess of 144 sq inches of screen, or 2.2 sq inches of screen processing per gallon!

Far from being put off from the horizontal design I will continue with an 'Open' approach to design and appreciate any constructive comments like yours on both verticle and horizontal designs. At the end of the day I doubt very much that there is any significant performance difference between the two options. If the nutrient levels are not detectable or very minimal you have achieved what you set out to do....Scrub!

Kind regards,
The Pisces

[kcress]

There is a huge difference, when things like algae-blocking or screen-waviness occur, which re-directs all the flow once a little growth occurs.

I'm not against horizontal... I posted builds of them, and we even made the worlds first horizontal nano scrubber right here in the office. But I have to make sure that the average person who builds a scrubber will have strong filtering and good success with their display. So I only recommend what get's reported to me as successful. The horizontal designs are touchy, and over half of the time, they don't work at all due to the operator. And, they take up the whole top of the sump. Verticals, however, work every time as long as you can cut the slot in the pipe (I don't recommend drilled holes). Remember, hundreds of people have reported their builds on my threads alone, and I hear all the stories. Horizontals just have much more problems (for the average person) than verticals. It is possible to get a horizontal working properly, but it takes more skill, and more coverage of the sump.

As for success of one vs. the other, you will never know unless you build one, use it for a year, then remove it and use the other for a year. If you only build a horizontal, and your display algae or nutrients never go away, then you won't know if a vertical would have done better (for the SAME gph, watts, and space). The purpose of my reporting the results of other builders is to show what happened to hundreds of others when THEY tried it. Many have tried horizontals, but only a few kept them. Building and operating a horizontal simply leaves less room for errors.

I can not deny, there are certainly aspects of horizontals that need to be worked out. Hopefully something solid will shake out to allow that format for those needing it.

[ThePisces]

Yes indeed, I think it was Thomas Edison who nearly gave up on his development of the domestic light bulb so with him in mind I'm going to endeavour in the building and development of the horizontal ATS for those with limited space or those who have space but prefer that design and try to iron out these problems if they occure.

My current design (actual scrubbing/functional area) is 13.5 inches long and 12 inches wide and less than 5 inches high so quite compact. That incorporates all the lighting ( upto 5 x CFT in a slashproof housing, screen, slipway and outlet pipe.This has been designed for those with a sump or are able to sit it on a small external tank. May do a few little tweeks here and there but looking promising so far.

"Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."

Thomas Edison

[ShanGo]

Yes indeed, I think it was Thomas Edison who nearly gave up on his development of the domestic light bulb so with him in mind I'm going to endeavour in the building and development of the horizontal ATS for those with limited space or those who have space but prefer that design and try to iron out these problems if they occure.

My current design (actual scrubbing/functional area) is 13.5 inches long and 12 inches wide and less than 5 inches high so quite compact. That incorporates all the lighting ( upto 5 x CFT in a slashproof housing, screen, slipway and outlet pipe.This has been designed for those with a sump or are able to sit it on a small external tank. May do a few little tweeks here and there but looking promising so far.

"Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."

Thomas Edison
let just try things if it works then thats good lets get on with it took me a long time to do mine but getting there

[ThePisces]

Have lighting unit assembled now. Using just 3 x18w CFT which is equivilent to 300w but have made provision for another two CFT if needed.... Nice reddish 2700k glow :oops:

Ok need to ask this question for future use. Has anyone found that algae has grown in places OTHER than the screen in any large amount as a result of the lights from the scrubber? If so I think the lighting unit will have to be shielded more which won't be a problem.

Come on Mr Postman I need those pipes!

To be continued

The Pisces

[kcress]

It will grow ANYWHERE it gets wet inside a scrubber.

[ThePisces]

Hi Kcress, I guess what I mean is algae growth that did not grow prior to the scrubber being installed. Areas which are being illuminated by stray light. Ok may sound like an obvious question but just trying to establish how much growth is 'going to waste' in other areas other than the removeable screen due to poor shielding of the scrubbers lights.

Many thanks for your reply. Had a couple of beers so apologies if I am not making myself clear :roll:

Cheers, The Pisces

[kcress]

No worries mate. Light is like food. it can grow stuff lots of places. However. Since your TS is supposed to be sucking down all the free plant food in your system and out competing everything else, splashed light elsewhere should be weaker and less able to get stuff going elsewhere in the sump etc. Marine life being what it is, may still find a way. I wouldn't worry about it until you see something.

[ThePisces]

Thanks Kcress, it was a bit of a concern that using the red end of the spectrum bulbs 2700k which are, if not sheilded adequately gong to make algae grow in areas we might not want it to. I guess I was just thinking maybe a little too far in advance and thinking how to focus/sheild all the light so it falls just where we want it to...bit of a self inflicted brainstorming session :idea: Possibly too much fine detail but want max performance from each component.

John, The Pisces

[tabwyo]

I am planning on building a horizontal 24"W x 48"L scrubber lit by two 48" T8 2 blub(5000K) shop light fixctures set 4 or so inches off and at the same angle as the screen deck. After reading a ton of forum posts, sifting through archives and reading a large number of articles. I have settled on a horizontal design as they seem easiest to maintain once running properly. From what I can see an aggressive drop angle (45-60 degrees) and regular cleaning should eliviate the problems possed by SM.

[routestomarket]

Good luck in your endeavours!

I have to admit my horizontal design is doing wonder for my tank and I have not as of yet hit any pitfalls.

I also like your idea of two T8's but that would be too big for me!

Please post pics of your progress as I think there are a few of us here who like the horizointal scrubber layout.

Cheers

[tabwyo]

I was planning on two 2 bulb fixtures (4 lights total). Not too certain I'd get the light saturation I am looking for from just two bulbs on a 24 inch wide trough. The fixtures I am look at are roughly 10 inches wide including the reflector. So side by side the lights would be on the edges of the trough with a 8 or so inch gap in the middle between bulbs. I hypothesize tat this gap will give me a fairly descet intensity drop providing an area in the center of the trough for algal growth that preffers slightly less intense light. While still providing a good area directly under the blulbs for types that preffer direct intense illumination.

[kcress]

tabwyo; Make sure you start your own thread!

Also I think you want to use 2700k not 5000k you should check that though.

You probably don't need that steep an angle. 30 degrees will more than adequate. You really do need edges though on one that long. Edges about 1-1/2 to 2 inches.

[ThePisces]

Hi Tabwyo

I guess if you have been reading all the information on this forum you would have read and seen my posts regarding the horizontal approach to scrubbing?

I, like Routestomarket and others have had none of the problems that are said to afflict horizontal's. Like you say, and as I am finding, it is far easier to maintain, far less bulky, limited for space or not. I guess that's another factor as to why industry chose to go horizontal?

As Kcress said you want to use the 2700k bulbs as they give a good amount of the red light spectrum which the algae need. My scrubber has only been running since Wednesday and already my screens have a medium/light covering of brownish algae. I have the lights about 4 to 5 inches away and am using 3 x 18w CFT's (100w equiv) so a total wattage of 300w over an area of aprrox 20 x 10 inches. I'm getting a good spreade of light because I am using a lightbox that I made from white opaque acylic so it acts to spread and reflect the light at the same time. Even lighting I think is key and not all focused in one spot which seems to a problem for verticle designs. Much easier to light a horizontal ATS and keep the light contained.

My scrubber has an angle of just 15 degrees. The flow is fantastic with a pump rated at 1700 litres per hour but this I guess depends upon actual design? As Kcress said also you want to make the side walls of the trough at least an inch high, obviously to keep the water where it should be but when the algae grows up from your scree it will take the water level up with it. What I am personally finding is that as the algae is growing, the water now travels under the screen as well as over the top of it, so is effectively being fed from both sides. I guess this is because the algae adds some buoyancy to the screen ie trapped oxygen? It's working fine though, far better than some would have me or others believe it would.

Good luck and keep us posted.


UK and 'some' US scrubbers do it horizontally :lol: