scrubber results

[saltykid85]

I have an 80 gallon mixed reef/seahorse tank. About a month ago I installed a diy ats, waterfall. Used 1 inch PVS, and teed it off my return pump with valve.

I measured the flow, using a mag 7, and my tank is getting about 240 gph (3x overturn) and the ats is getting 300 gph. (Timed how long it took to fill a 5 gallon bucket. My screen is ten inches wide, roughed up, and I am using two 40 watt (actual wattage, equivalent of 80 watt bulbs)
Cfl, one on each side.

The first three weeks I grew minimal algae. Sorta like someone spray painted screen green/brown. This past week I am getting some thick green/brown hair algae on it.

I have been cleaning every seven days in sink, leaving about ten percent of the algae on it. So far in 3 days since cleaning it, it has grown dramatically.

I Bought a Hannah checker. A week ago, my po4 measured an abysmal 1.06.

To hurry the process I have done two 25 gallon water changes. Before my WC of 25% yesterday (after first WC) my po4 read .79. I did a water change last night, and if I did my math right, I should have landed at .59. Well this morning, with algae piling up, I was at .49, back to back tests.
Fast forward til now, 14 hours after the morning test, I am at .41.

So either my.math is wrong. Or the scrubber is pulling .08 out throughout the day.

My no3 are at 20. Not sure what they were when I started, just started measuring them in the last few days.

So my question is, do these numbers/ time intervals make sense, or is that simply impossible?

Also, when cleaning, is it best to use tap water for say 90/percent removal, or is there a better way?

My lights are on 19/hours a day.

Also with numbers seemingly dropping like they are, any concern for other parameters, calcium alk etc.

Lastly, the scrubber sits in my sump, second chamber where a fuge would have went. I am getting growth on the glass and baffles of that chamber. Is that okay, or do I need to figure out a way to focus light only on the screen. I am using small 5 inch home depot reflectors.

Thank you

[Aeros]

Ahh to be new to scrubbing...

There have been at least one test using commercial fertilizer and an ATS to determine the amounts of each, PO4, NO2 that were consumed. I don't think the experiment was ever finished though. It's on this forum somewhere...

I had DIY scrubber from almost the get-go, the best iteration was using red LEDs (I know our local Menard's sells a PAR 38 with red LEDs now) and weekly scrape down to bare plastic (or as close as you can with a spatula) and tap rinse, then I replaced my sump and vowed to get a "Surf 2" for the ease and noise reduction...few years later I did.

A scrubber won't use Calcium at all, or Magnesium (equally as important as CAL) for that matter. But, it will chew through CO2 like a mofo. And as we all should know, "Alkalinity," as utilized by corals, is a measure of Carbonate hardness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_hardness) that as far as I've seen algae can utilize in the absence of dissolved/gaseous CO2 ;did we ever figure out if it's dissolved that algae use?

That being said, an ATS will not "significant'y" compensate for normal pH swing, nor "oxygenate" your water, though it also wont deplete O2 levels either. Either way, you should dose CO3 in some form at least weekly if keeping stony corals, if not then...

[saltykid85]

Attempting to keep sps. Just Bought some 150w metal halides.

Does my phosphate dropping that fast seem reasonable, or is that too much, or too good to be true?

When cleaning the screen, sounds like you clean so you basically start from scratch each week, or do you leave some on there to grow?
Also is 3 times an hour thru sump enough, or would I be better off hoping the flow back to the display?

[Aeros]

Intensity of light seems to be more effective than time of light exposure, i.e., my 400 watt MH at 4 hrs can grow what T5s at 12 hr cannot.

As for P04, the sooner it's gone the better. Nothing inhibits SPS like Phosphate does, or kills them IME. I would recommend running GFO short term to assist in PO4 reduction.

As for the screen, if it's properly "roughed up" enough, you'll never get all the algae off no matter what you do, so go to town, or don't. The harvest is just that, get as much as you can conveniently remove off, you'll never get it all, and even starting with a new screen you're already giving the algae a more opportune place to grown.

Flow: This one always pestered me. It;s an archaic methodology IMHO. Given a flow rate of X, it's simply a matter of X time until every molecule of water is "turned over" as they say. You hear this often in skimmer land. Well, the truth of the matter is simply this: If you have 10GPH flow rate in a 100 Gal tank it takes only 10 Hrs to "turn over" this water (obviously some water is pocketed and takes longer). Given that most equiptment is set-up to run 24-7, ~10hrs seems trivial, and results in over 2x "turn over" per day.

Scrubbers work by removing PO4 and NO2 (more NO2 than PO4 sadly) and not food such as a skimmer does, as a result of 24x operation you can go low flow, like the "Surf 2" which uses pathetic bubbles to feed flow rates hah!. See, a scrubber does jack-all for preventing PO4 and NO2 like a skimmer, but once it's there it affects it effectively to zero unlike a skimmer can ever do (unless dosing sugar).

[saltykid85]

Understood. So you're saying regardless of flow, it will all enter ats at some point, whether now or 4/hours from now.

Still puzzled as to if i really went from .59 to .41 in a days time just because of scrubbing. Would you believe it to be possible, or is my new Hanna meter not reading correctly?

Also, by dosing c03, is that just like two part alkalinity? NY dkh is currently ten, never dosing anything, just water changes using red sea coral pro.

[Aeros]

Yes, regardless of flow rate PO4 and NO2 will uptake at roughly the same rate as 100gph.

Your checker may be faulty, however, there isn't a baseline for uptake due to so many designs etc.. I wish there was, so who can say, other than lower is better.

You are using a highly rated salt, however, it's been known that in the past salt makers have fluffed their DKH numbers by adding Borate/Boron (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/12/chemistry) which though it stabilizes pH, it does little for corals or other Carbonate hungry things. I personally use Instant Ocean that I bump the Ca and Mg levels to my liking while mixing up; a little trick I learned during a tour of Dr. Foster and Smith's coral propagation facility -saves much monies.

Edit - I do not use the outdated "2 Part Alkalinity" stuff. Since I rarely, if ever do a PWC (partial water change) I do not wan't to add a lot of: Sodium, Sulfate or anything else that wont be used like Ca, Mg or CO3. So I only dose Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, aka soda ash), Magnesium Chloride (never sulfate) and Calcium Chloride. That is until I find a Calcium reactor that I don't hate, then it's out the window with all water changes and dosing.

[Bacon]

IMO I don't think you can reduce P that fast with a relatively new scrubber.

If you are using the Hanna Checker ULR Phosphate, then you need to 1) follow a rigorous testing procedure and 2) mark your vial with a dot and keep the vial in that same orientation for the calibration step AND the testing step, because variations in the thickness of the cuvette will throw off the test reading. This latter item is not quite as important in the low range checker, but it doesn't hurt to follow that same process for that one as well.


As for P04, the sooner it's gone the better. Nothing inhibits SPS like Phosphate does, or kills them IME. I would recommend running GFO short term to assist in PO4 reduction.

I agree that you want to get P down, but stability is really the most important thing

Ask Richard Ross how well his SPS grow in P > 1.0. High P in and of itself is not necessarily an SPS killer - instability is. High P will slow down growth, but high fluctuations in P that result in instability of the water column (likely from trying one fix or another) is what can kill coral. Stability is key.


Flow: This one always pestered me. It;s an archaic methodology IMHO. Given a flow rate of X, it's simply a matter of X time until every molecule of water is "turned over" as they say. You hear this often in skimmer land. Well, the truth of the matter is simply this: If you have 10GPH flow rate in a 100 Gal tank it takes only 10 Hrs to "turn over" this water (obviously some water is pocketed and takes longer). Given that most equiptment is set-up to run 24-7, ~10hrs seems trivial, and results in over 2x "turn over" per day.

For me it comes down to more of a factor of nutrients delivered to the screen, and turnover rate is just an easier way to describe and quantify it. So I get what you're saying, to an extent, but I don't know that it's archaic. To me it's not a hard-and-fast rule, because every tank and scrubber is different.

In a high nutrient system, a lower tank turnover rate might actually be wanted - so that you aren't over-delivering nutrients. But in a low-nutrient system, you want a lot of turnover rate or else your algae can starve. This also depends on the light used and the duration. Everything is relative to the system that the scrubber is on.

The best thing to do is size according to the feeding guidelines, maybe 2x that size, set it up and let it run for a few months before changing anything. Just see how it grows - and let it grow. There is no longer a must-clean-every-7-days rule, you clean when needed. If you can still see the screen/grid pattern, it's not time to clean, unless it's a brand new screen, and then only room temp tap water and light swipe of the palm or gentle rub with fingertips. For a new screen you can typically go 14 days or more between cleanings, and you might keep this up for 2 months or more. So don't over-clean. When the screen starts to take off, then you can scrape, and whatever is left in the holes is your 10%, just don't scrub with a brush or anything like that and you're good.

A lot of great advice by Aeros in this thread BTW, good links, good general tank methodology

[saltykid85]

My test procedure to rule out human error is as identical each time as I can make it.

I always pull water with syringe from middle if tank, about 6/inches down. I pull about ten samples of water thru syringe to remove any potential contaminates.

I then fill to same line, close tightly, and then run vial in ro water on the outside to rinse of salt, debris and fingerprints, paper towel dry. Calibrate, and the only part my hand touches is the black cap. Checker is always on flat surface, and I mix solution in a whirl pool fashion to eliminate chance of micro bubbles.

What i don't like about test is the reagent. Sometimes, you get 80 percent of powder in vial other times you get 90 percent or so. Given the timer give you two minutes to add powder then mix, no time to waste. I will check it in an hour just to see where it went in a day.

Thank you for your help guys

[Bacon]

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?3236-Hanna-phosfaat-checker-problem


I've used the Hanna Checker quite a bit and never seen any colored particles precipitate. There is sort or a detailed process you have to follow to make this test work right, consistently:

Fill the vial with the water sample
Prepare the packet (before zeroing out the meter)
- loosen up all the reagent by tapping/squeezing it with your finger while rotating the packet (move the air around)
- hold the packet with one corner down and keep tapping to get all the reagent in one corner
- Cut the packet with a scissors on the 2 top edges (opposite the corner where the reagent is settled)
- open the packet by grabbing the 2 side corners and wiggling it back and forth gently until it opens like a mouth
- this creates a spillway for pouring out the packet, using the top edge where the 2 cut edges meet

Wipe the cuvette with a clean glasses-cleaning cloth
turn on the meter, wait until it reads C1
insert cuvette
Press the button and release
when it zeroes out, it will read C2, the you have exactly 3 minutes to do the following (I use a timer)

- take out cuvette and open
- carefully pour in reagent
- cap cuvette
- with practice, this above process should take about 20-30 seconds.
- hold cuvette horizontal and rock it back and forth. Do NOT shake vigorously. Just keep it rocking to make the air bubble more the reagent back and forth and get it all dissolved. This usually takes right at about 2 minutes - it should all be dissolved. (use a timer)
- wipe cuvette again with glasses cleaning cloth
- insert cuvette into meter
- press AND HOLD button for 3 seconds until the meter reads 3:00 and then starts counting down.

Now the hard part is over. Set your timer again for 3 minutes so you don't forget to read the meter, as it will time-out after a few minutes.

[Bacon]

Cutting the packet across 2 edges and opening it up like a mouth is the key. Either that, or take an index card, make a crease, pour contents on to the index card, and use that to funnel the reagent into the vial. I prefer the packet method, I always get all of it. And this is critical

Which one are you using, the low range or the ultra low range?

[saltykid85]

Its the green one, believe just the low one.

Just tested it back to back, entire packet contents went in. .39 in both tests.

[SantaMonica]

I have indeed seen fast-dropping phosphate in tanks with high phosphate that have no export. The scrubber is like a hole poked into the bottom of a 55 gal drum. Getting phosphate out of the rocks is a different matter.

Turnover does not matter; scrubber take very little nutrients out of the water per second. And only the laminar layer of a fraction of a millimeter touching the algae does anything; the extra flow outside of that just passes by.

Sounds like yours is working well.

[saltykid85]

Sm-


So my numbers dropping can be true. How/when will I know if the phosphate is leaching from the rock?

For instance, at the rate I'm going, another 25 percent WC or two I should be in teens or single digits. Does that sound about right, or are there barriers that exist the closer you get to zero?

Also my nitrate is in the 10 to 20 range. Is that enough in water to keep phosphate coming down, or should I be feeding heavier? (The balance or ratio when either po4 or nitrate is to low, it can't remove the other etc)

[SantaMonica]

Don't feed more. Nitrate does not affect the phosphate. This may help:

Phosphate flow out of rocks

Many people, when they get their scrubber running for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).

Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.

Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.

This flow causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae in the scrubber was leaking out and attaching to your rocks. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:

1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.

2. The scrubber is new, maybe only a few months old, and has recently started to grow well.

3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.

4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.

5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.


Since skimmers, filter socks, etc don't remove any nitrate and phosphate, and waterchanges and macro's in a fuge don't remove much, most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it does. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your scrubber is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (GFO, carbon dosing, etc). But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.

[saltykid85]

Zero algae on glass, rocks or anywhere else but ats and surrounding chamber area . (is that a bad thing to have algae growing on sump glass which the ats PVC is housed? From escaping light from reflector?)

And I always thought if you dropped nitrate to low, the algae would stop consuming both nitrate (gone, zero) as well as the phosphate.

Suppose I need.some clarity on the ratio/balancing aspect.

[SantaMonica]

Excess light in the sump just means more to clean.

Nitrate can be any number.

[saltykid85]

Well cant figure this one out. Came home, after not feeding/touching the tank since this morning, tested, same procedure (clean vial with ro water, remove fingerprints etc) and my phosphate read .49, up a tenth from 12 hours ago. What could have possibly happened?

I can tell that a lot of the lps are not as opened up as they usually are. Was going down down down, now phospate has risen up.

[SantaMonica]

I would just stop testing for a while.

[Bacon]

The normal range Hanna Checker Phosphate has an error range of +/- 0.04, so it's possible that your 2 tests prior read low and this one read high. I've tested back to back and got consistent results like you mentioned. So I don't know how true that is. But anyways I wouldn't concentrate on the exact reading as much as a trend of readings over time. i.e. test once a week, not one a day. Kind of like not weighing yourself every day when you're trying to lose weight.

Also go through that process I posted. One key, which I think you have right, is not vigorously shaking the vial. I use the tip back & forth technique. You must get all the reagent dissolved. Also instead of rinsing the vial with water and wiping off with a paper towel, just use a glasses cleaning cloth. Not a microfiber cloth, not paper towel.