How should I bootstrap a new ATS tank?

[johnrt]

Hello all:

This site is an amazing find.

I am about to set up my first SW tank. It will be a 90 G display with a sump. I had planned to use live rock (well man made live rock), deep sand bed and a skimmer to filter, but now it looks like live rock for aquascaping and a 10” x 10” scrubber (can't believe the size compared with the alternatives!!).

Conventional wisdom with conventional filtration, like my original plan, states that it takes weeks to cycle a tank before you can add the first and hardiest soft corals and fish and up to a year before you should consider SPS, seahorses, anemones or some other delicate specimens, yet here I read that the screens will not even get properly running until you have some real bioload.

So, my questions are;

1)What is the preferred startup sequence for a new tank?
2)What order and time-frame should I stock it - in general terms?
3)How long should I wait before adding demanding specimens like SPS corals?

I think I really need to know what milestones to look for as the tank matures and what to watch for before disaster strikes.

I have done some searching here, but may not have chosen good key words, so if there is and existing tread, just point me there, but if it is not too much to ask, I would really like to hear from people who feel that they added stuff too fast or too much. If you made your mistakes, I'd love to avoid them and make new and different ones!

Thank you. John

[SantaMonica]

No particular thread. And it's not that a scrubber doesn't get up and running without a bio load, it's just that the bio load is very small while cycling (just some small dead sponges, etc).

Anyways, just cycle as normal, and the scrubber will keep the ammonia to a minimum. When ammonia is zero, you can put your first corals/fish. It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of measuring. My guess is 4 weeks. After your nitrate is low too (maybe less than 20) you can add the rest. Other people will have different numbers.

At least with a scrubber from the start, you corals will have lots of food to eat from the start.

[kcress]

I agree with SM.

You can dose an empty tank with ammonia that will be converted to nitrate which will feed a Tscrubber. Once the nitrate has zero'd out against the TS you could put in a fish or two. If nitrate stays zero'd you can slowly ramp up your system. Of course your stated setup needs the live rock to do the conversion to nitrate so that needs to be in already.

[johnrt]

Thank you for the quick replies and all your efforts on this project.

SantaMonica: Just the information I was looking for. Milestone one would be some growth (oil slick on screen – immediate clean off). Milestone two, nitrates, nitrites and phosphates low or undetectable and more tuft-like growth on screen, then ramp up slowly, and the time-frame for one and two is variable, but faster (?) than a 'conventional' setup. Right?

Kress: Dosing with ammonia, like a 'fishless cycle' on a freshwater tank sounds interesting. I envision the role of the live rock, under the new plan, as decorative and provide the 'platform' for the corals. If it does some ammonia cracking or nitrite reduction, that is a bonus, but the AST will do the real work. The tank could be empty, like a coral propagation tank, or is the live rock still needed to do the initial conversion of ammonia?

Do I understand correctly, that other than adding the specimens slowly enough so that the screen can adapt to the new load, I could either go to the 'conventional' hardy species like softees or possibly in different tanks, directly to 'demanding' specimens such as SPS corals or seahorses? Or do I need to watch for a different change or time, before adding these?

Thank you again. John

[SantaMonica]

Rock is doing most of the ammonia filtering. Algae is doing most of the nitrate and phosphate filtering (actually just phosphate, since it is limiting.)

There is no "time", just "measurements". Either your tank can keep everything zero, or it can't.

[kcress]

johnrt; To review:

The fish doodoo goes into solution. It results in ammonia, a poison. Bacteria converts this to nitrite, another poison. Yet another bacteria converts this to nitrate, which is NOT a poison. However it is a excellent plant food! Hence our turf screens which are highly efficient plant growers aimed at consuming that nitrate.

The aforementioned bacteria live only on surfaces. Surfaces of gravel, tank walls, and live rock. The surface area of live rock is huge. Hundreds of square feet in a handful of live rock. That's why it's so effective in ammonia removal.

None of the bacteria live on our turf screens. So..., Yes, you ABSOLUTELY need live rock or a lot of gravel.

[johnrt]

kress

Thank you for expanding on that. I had wrongly thought that the algae ate the ammonia directly because ammonia is often used in plant fertilizers. That is presumably because soil bacteria are doing the conversion to nitrate. Cool.

John

[SantaMonica]

Algae does eat ammonia; that is it's favorite food. But the rock gets to the ammonia first. If there were no rock (or bio balls, etc), you would need a much more serious scrubber.

The advantage a scrubber has, concerning ammonia, is it's ability to grow quickly into a larger filter, whereas rock cannot increase it's size.

[johnrt]

Things have become confused because I now have 2 , perhaps 3, projects in mind.

The big display tank with live rock, shallow sand and ATS only for filtration. For that tank, I think that question is answered in that once N an P are undetectable and pods abound, that the tank would be considered mature by conventional thinking and I could start to slowly add hardy softees or assuming adequate lighting, SPS corals or even seahorse (project 3?).

The second project would be an ultra-simple quarantine tank, with only 10 G tank, PVC pipe for caves and ATS filter. With any live rock in the tank, should you get sick or infested livestock, you then have potentially contaminated live rock. Without live rock, once the livestock is dealt with, the tank, PVC pipe, external pump impeller housing and impeller go into the dish washer twice, once with soap and one without, make a new screen and you are back in business.

So, kcress and SantaMonica, can I go with no live rock in a 10 G tank and how large a screen should I consider?

Thank you. John

[kcress]

Seems too much like all your eggs in one basket trying to run any tank on just a TS.

Ammonia damages fish gills very quickly. Were it me, I would ALWAYS want more than just a TS. For an example what if your power fails. Live rock will keep the tank safe a TS will not in that situation.

[johnrt]

kcress:

Good point. Power failures happen.

John

[SantaMonica]

That's correct. I'd not want anyone to try no-rock and no-sand and no-bio-balls. That would put all ammonia loading on the scrubber, and I have not seen a scrubber yet that I'd trust (would need battery backup, multiple everything, etc).

Even a 10g hospital tank... the algae won't grow if you are not feeding it. So it does no good.

[johnrt]

Thank you both.

The hospital tank will get 15 lb of rock to keep things stable when I build it.

I'll post developments in a new thread.

John T

[AlgaeNator]

Its all about tank Volume too. A nano or smaller 30-50 tank has VERY little room for error while a 100Ga with 30 GA has MUCH more room for error... way more forgiving... and tolerance for pollutants and toxins. Water changes can really help with this too early on Skimmer or not.

i.e.. Everything happens faster in smaller tanks with less overall water volume, when things go bad they go bad FAST.

Also a smaller tank with a LOT of LR and maybe a sump/fuge with more water volume added and other bacteria starters in sump like miracle mudd etc.. having it going maybe some macros etc... could also be a candidate for fast removal of skimmer leaving sump in place and fuge until ATS gets going. Then clear out the other crap like DSB and other Macro's.

I noticed my ATS grow MUCH quicker once I removed the skimmer.. (skimmer was taking nutrients out of volume) People that run skimmers WHILE trying to grow ATS I think might be fighting the process a bit...Just my 2cts..

[johnrt]

Thank you all for the advice.

Tomorrow I'll make one final trip to Home Depot to get the last goodies for my first scrubber.

I've put it off as long as I can, we don't have cacti in Ontario, so I guess I better stop by the garden center and grab hold of one to see what 'cactus rough' means.

I'm telling you, I'm not looking forward to this!

John

[johnrt]

Those plants are just nasty. Why do you even have them? You should take an enormous spray-bar off an ATS, mount it on the bumper of a Hum V, hook-up a party barrel of RoundUp and just kill them!

My left hand is practically paralyzed. . . Wait, we have socialized medicine. I don't care that my hands ruined. I just get a new one. There we go, all better.

John.

[ChrisD]

In my understanding you don't want any live rock in your hospital tank. As soon as you have to dose any treatment it will be contaminated and thrown away. If you have that money to burn then go ahead but seems very wasteful. Normal practice (that I have seen) is to keep the quarantine tank dry until required with a filter pad sitting in the main tank sump so that it is colonised with bacteria. When needed, the quarantine is set up and the filter pad put into an internal filter (yep - feels a bit freshwater tropical :shock: ). Using main tank water at least in part completes the set up of a reasonable biological colony to keep levels in check and is supported by frequent water changes. That way, if dosing is required, it's just wash the tanks and internal filter etc. Pipe can/should be added for some hide-aways for any fish.

After each treatment period, the tank is sterilised and broken down for storage dry to make sure no nasties survive for your next use... would be really bad to treat a problem and then later infect a healthy subject coming in through quarantine!

Doesn't seem like a suitable application for an ATS that needs to be running permanently to me.

Just my 2 pence, cents or any other minor currency unit.

[kcress]

Nice plan Chris. I agree!

[ChrisD]

Thanks kcress. Wish I could take credit for the original thinking but there are few original ideas left in this world. I will, however, take credit for describing something (hopefully) in an understandable manner when I have read it many times before on other threads (not all!) written in such a way that seems to be overcomplicating the process and confusing people. :shock:
For a fuller version, a web search will reveal details of how much tank water vs freshly mixed salt, quarantine periods, hyposalinity treatments, sterilisation techniques (the tank not the fish :lol: ) and many other cunning methods that I have never had to do and hope I never will (ref treatment!).