No thick growth

[spamer80]

Hello. I have 200lt tank (Juwel Lido 200) with 50lt sump and there is 2 gymnothorax tile, 2 green spotted puffers and the main reason of making a scrubber - 30cm porcupine puffer grown from 5cm for about half of the year, waiting for me to buy a larger tank for him. Since I can`t do it right now, I decided to make a scrubber first. Also I`m currently using all-in-one biopellets, carbon reactor and skimmer (Juwel Seaskim). Nitrates always remain the same 20ppm and phosphates is unknown, but I have a huge growth of algae all over the tank.
It`s size is 20x50cm or 1000cm2 and it feeded by both Tunze 1074/2 overflow and directly from Aquael 2000 pump. The slot is 5mm and seems that is possible to make it wider. The light is 50w chinese led grow flood light each side about 15cm from scrubber. 18/6 per day. I like it because they`re splash-proof. Feeding is 1 frozen shrimp or mussel per day and it`s about 15grams. I`m not sure about cube equivalent since all of them are predators and eat the same.
The problem is that I have green growth on my scrubber but it is not thick as on many forum users pictures, and it mostly the green slime. What`s wrong with my setup?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5VgEW1BbQ

[SantaMonica]

Welcome from Russia,

Hard to tell with the red light, but it's probably growing dark slime because of high nutrients, and green hair has not attached yet. It's still filtering though.

Pics with a white light would help.

How long has it been growing?

[spamer80]

Welcome from Russia,

Hard to tell with the red light, but it's probably growing dark slime because of high nutrients, and green hair has not attached yet. It's still filtering though.

Pics with a white light would help.

How long has it been growing?

Thank you. It`s a week growth. The scrubber was started about 3 month ago, then 4x 30W CFL changed to 2x50W leds, then 6500K led chips changed to grow.

Well, anyway, right now I`ve totally restarted the scrubber. Just made it more rough (if it was possible).

[SantaMonica]

Run the lights 22 hours, and let's see how it looks in 10 days.

[spamer80]

I`ve also drilled the slot to 10mm. The flow now have full power and should be about 4000 l/h. Still some splashes around but I hope when algae cover the slot it will be reduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z51NHITq0U8

[SantaMonica]

10 mm is usually to big. Growth will fill in by itself with 3 mm. But since it is already cut, let's see how it does.

[spamer80]

The scrubber now is covered by bubbles but it I leave only one flood light turned on, I still can see light penetrating through it.
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[SantaMonica]

You should have both lights on.

[spamer80]

Sure, I turned one off only to make a photo and look if light is still penetrating it. Btw, not sure when starto to clean it. Thanks.

[SantaMonica]

Give it another week.

[spamer80]

And another upgrade. Cut the slot from inside to V-shape. Result is great. Less noise, less splashes, more flow.
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I`m also thinking about adding another 2x50w led floods because the lower part of scrubber seems have low light. No air bubbles and less growth. The scrubber was actually made so long only for less noise.

[spamer80]

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[SantaMonica]

Scrape it all off, so you can see the screen again, and let grow another 10 days.

Move the lights closer if you can.

[spamer80]

I can move lights closer, but easier is add another 2x50w.
Do I need to scrape both sides this time and and always? I mean, it's possible to get nitrate spike before algae will grow again.

[SantaMonica]

Scrape both sides. Dark growth is dying anyway because light cannot get through.

[spamer80]

I`ve used toothbrush. The screen is now white again. 200gr of algae this week.
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[SantaMonica]

Good. The extra light reflections will help more green hair to grow.

[spamer80]

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One day growth. I`m still not sure is it cyano or brown algae...
Anyway, bought additional 2x50w led flood lights, deep red now. Will install it next week when it arrive.

[spamer80]

The growth looks the same...
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[SantaMonica]

Nutrients are still being removed, and as they get lower the screen will grow greener.

Continue the cycles of scraping everything off when it looks like this.

If you can add light, or make it stronger or more near, that will speed things up.

[spamer80]

Thank you. Additional flood lights should arrive on friday.

UPD. Only 100g. this time :(
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[spamer80]

Now 100W LED per side, or 200W total. 2x50w grow and 2x50w red. If this will not work, I think I will end with LED`s.
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[spamer80]

Also, if this will not work and I will still get not enough light, should I try 3000k leds instead of red/grow? Because it`s impossible to move light closer, but they give me more lumens and I hope more deep light penetration power.

[SantaMonica]

No, you will have more than enough light.

[spamer80]

Screen color now. Stupid compact cam still refuse to focus... And I should get another 2 grow leds instead of red ones. The part of the scrubber under them (lower) is growing much slower and does not have microbubbles.
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[spamer80]

Anyway, I`ve just started scrubber in my fw tank too.
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Also, one of my red LEDs suddenly died, so I was forced to add original 6500k instead, before 50w grow will arrive. I should probably warn another users don`t buy from riverstone88 seller on eBay.
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[SantaMonica]

In addition to a bad seller, that type of led is also just a colored lens on a clear led. Very dim. What you want are color leds instead; they look white or slightly yellow when not turned on, and are much brighter and with solid color when on.

[spamer80]

Thank you for advice. Now I`m not sure if my grow LEDs are good enough too. I`ve never seen grow leds any different from this:
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I have these both in fw and sw sold as full spectrum grow leds (the ones in fw were preinstalled in flood lights).
And I believe you`re talking about something like this:
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/10W-20W-30W-50W-COB-LED-Grow-Light-Chip-For-Plant-Hydroponics-Garden-Greenhouse-/322286775084?var=&hash=item4b09c9eb2c:m:mvnGNpsOYWL7daQTyi37iIw
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-High-Power-LED-Chip-Plant-Growing-Hydroponic-Red-Blue-4-1-660nm-445nm-DIY-/371666994293?hash=item5689144475:g:ck0AAOSwIBBUbE1 U

[SantaMonica]

Yes the bottom picture, and the two ebay ones, are good. The top picture with orange puts out hardly any light at all because the light can't get through the orange coating. It's only good for indicator lights or lights on a sign.

[spamer80]

Yes the bottom picture, and the two ebay ones, are good. The top picture with orange puts out hardly any light at all because the light can't get through the orange coating. It's only good for indicator lights or lights on a sign.
Thanks. Well, it seems like it`s the answer to the thread topic. Time to buy good leds...

[spamer80]

Since we decided that the red one LEDs is a crap, I had no choise and changed it to original cool white (6500k). The result will be published tomorrow, but I can see that the lower part of scrubber now is covered with bubbles too and grows some greener stuff at the lower part. Actually, i`m not running biopellets anymore because after 2x50w flood lights were added (07.10.2016) I don`t have enough space for reactor.
After I`ve removed biopellets, nitrates went from 20ppm to 40ppm, but now after a week it`s down back to 20ppm, so I can definetely say that scrubber is working. Still obviously no changes in tank, it`s all covered with GHA.
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[spamer80]

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Still only 200g today but less slimy.

[spamer80]

I`ve decided to try skimmerless now to get some space for puffer.
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[SantaMonica]

Well at least the nutrients will be low in the water, because of all that algae.

[spamer80]

I've started a small phytofilter/refugium instead with mangrove and chaeto. Also, I'll measure nitrates level every day, so if something will go wrong, I still can return the skimmer any time.

[spamer80]

Also, something strange is going here.
I have 3 No3 tests. Salifert, API and cheap NILPA (produced here). All was bought new and unopened from different places and far from expiration. In past 3 days I did 3 water changes in a row, 40 liters each.
API always shows No3 160ppm, no matter how hard I shake the bottle #2 and vial. And always 0 in freshly mixed saltwater. Actually, API shows about 100 NO3 in my 300lt discus tank, where 3 discus pairs lays eggs every 2 weeks like crazy.
Salifert always shows 50 to 100 No3 and 0 in freshly mixed saltwater.
And only NILPA showed 20ppm No3 before water changes and about 5 after in tank. And surely 0 in freshly mixed saltwater.

WTF?! I`m really bored with it.

[SantaMonica]

I'm sure the Salifert is fairly close. Phosphate would be more important anyway.

[spamer80]

Ok, I`ll try to continue daily water changes and look what`s will happen. I`ve also found the cassete for my Juwel filter with phosphate removing media (Phorax). It`s pretty small but I hope it help too.
I`ve seen a guy in the Internet who`s selling modified to reactors for different media Juwel Bioflow filters, but can`t find it again.

[spamer80]

Today harvest. 260g of algae and some green where the grow LEDs are. 6500k on the lower part of the screen. Every day 40l water changes after feeding but still absolutely no effect on nitrates :confused: I`ve only have salt for 2 water changes left.
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[SantaMonica]

You will do better by increasing the light, than by water changing.

[spamer80]

I doubt that I can do it with the current setup. Change to other lights will cost $$$ and I think I can`t insert 100W leds in 30W housing with enough heat distribution.

[spamer80]

Just got my phosphate test from before water changes.
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[SantaMonica]

Keep the screen scraped of the dark growth. The dark will absorb light.

[spamer80]

Also, my freshwater scrubber week growth.
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[SantaMonica]

Is really good.

[spamer80]

I`ve made new holders for flood lights. It is now 8cm instead of 12cm far from scrubber both sides.
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[SantaMonica]

That should help. And changing the white to red (or plant-grow) will help too.

[spamer80]

The good grow leds already on it's way from eBay, but it will take about a month.

[spamer80]

Anyway, porc`s new home will arrive on Sunday probably. It will be Juwel Rio 400. I think I`ll start new scrubber there immediately when it will be ready. This should take about a month.

[spamer80]

Unfortunately the new porc's tank is on hold now again. They reported they don't have right color. But, I'm getting more growth now, about 400g, of algae per week and it has more green spots. Unfortunately, the PO4 salifert test kit is still on it's way now and the NO3 still refuse to drop. algae is growing all over the tank...
I've also ordered 90 degree lens for my flood lights.

[spamer80]

from today I'm also trying vodka dosing. Started from 0,2ml/day as recommended here.
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[spamer80]

Freshwater growth. Really thick, about 1cm from each side of the screen.
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Saltwater growth. I`m now cleaning 1 side of scrubber every 3.5 days.
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[SantaMonica]

Yes the FW is about maxed out.

[spamer80]

But why? It`s green, yes, so the light penetrates deeper. I`ve even stopped the oxydator in my FW tank. Discuses are still laying eggs like crazy every week. The flood lights is the same, grow light but 20w instead of 50w(100w). They`re just about 1cm. closer to scrubber than in SW tank.
And about led lens. I`ve bought these ones. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/252139839572?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=550977250084&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
It`s 90 degree and according to calc (https://store.marinebeam.com/beam-angle-calculator-1/) I should get the perfect coverage of scrubber. Was it really necessary? When I moved the flood ligts closer, the growth practically doubled and some green stuff finally growing.
No effect on nitrates still, but now the things that were once cleaned (like front glass or pumps or filter) have no signs of future growth for about a week. The all-tank-algae still looks like growing slowly.
Is it possible that I have a poor no3/po4 balance and I actually should add more po4 instead of vodka dosing?
How balanced no3/po in frozen mussel and table king prawn. Both frozen fresh.

[SantaMonica]

Because FW always grows thin slimy growth. If there is any thickness to it all all, like your last pic, it's doing great.

SW growth is a different type, with more body, and it gets thick and fluffy.

[spamer80]

Some news here. Finally arrived my Salifert phosphate test kit. The last test I performed was 3 weeks ago and it was 1.24 by my friend`s milwaukee phosphate photometer.
I`ve also started vodka dosing 1 week ago and now I`m dosing 0.9ml.

So, according to my new Salifert test kit, my phosphates now is somewhere near 0.50 but definetely not 1 or more. I`m now not cleaning my front glass anymore, not cleaning my pumps (except from long deattached algae), filter etc. There is no visible new growth.
The algae from overall display tank deattaching and become thinner.
It`s not a win but definetely seems like the moment of battlefield turn.
Because of it, I have a few questions.
1) It seems that my phosphates decreasing faster than nitrates. What should I do if I get them low before nitrates? I doubt there is any bottles of potassium phosphate in my LFS.
2) on next Monday according to vodka dosing table, I should increase the dosing to 1.4ml. Should I?

[SantaMonica]

At some point the dosing is going to stop the scrubber growth. So maybe just leave it the same for a while.

Don't worry about N/P differences; they will balance out when you feed.

[spamer80]

Some growth. Onfortunately the same 0.5 po4 and lots of NO3... And good grow LEDs are still travelling, probably on post snails.
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[SantaMonica]

Well it's finally looking pretty good.

[spamer80]

The good LEDs (http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-High-Power-LED-Chip-Plant-Growing-Hydroponic-Red-Blue-4-1-660nm-445nm-DIY-/371666994293?hash=item5689144475) arrived today. I can clearly see the difference in color spectrum and light intencity.
Probably you should add this experience to FAQ, to warn people buying LEDs like this:
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Also, chinese manufacturers provide this:
http://i3.imageban.ru/out/2016/12/07/602bf4d0da68d3a3bd211d60c93d5cdd.jpg

Also, my PO4 finally reached 0.25

[spamer80]

And now I have a lot of sponges all over the tank.
https://www.manhattanreefs.com/gallery/files/1/2/0/dsc04626_sponge_pineapple-vi.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Ah, my favorite result of leaving food particles in the water :)

[spamer80]

Ah, my favorite result of leaving food particles in the water :)
It`s not actually me leaving them. It`s a very hungry greedy puffer :) Which is too large to hunt on every small piece.
Also, tomorrow is the scrubber cleaning time. The result should be pretty good.
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[spamer80]

Ok, here we go. This is the best result I ever had. Almost 1m long and very hard to clean with lots of amphipods.
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[SantaMonica]

Perfect. Strong light makes a big difference. A few harvests like that and your nutrients will be pretty low.

[spamer80]

Thank you, it's good to hear this. I'll write here about any changes in no3, po4 or scrubber.
I've also stopped vodka dosing about 2 weeks ago, instead of adding more ml.
Should I cut off the scrubber "tail" every time I see it because it's submerged in sump and I'm not sure if there is enough light for it?

[SantaMonica]

If you like.

[spamer80]

All scrubber is green, growth is the same. PO4 0.1, NO3 still 50+

[spamer80]

Looks like not so good news here. NO3 50+, PO4 0.05 by Salifert. Still refuse to balance...

[SantaMonica]

Not sure what you mean by balance. But you stopped carbon dosing, and the phosphate is still lower.

[spamer80]

I mean redfield ratio. I`ve read this thread (http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?1996-How-do-you-lower-nitrates-when-phosphates-are-0) and do not plan to do anything except cleaning half of scrubber every 3.5 days (so each half grows 7 days). I`ve found this better than cleaning whole scrubber every 7 days.
Just a bit worried how algae will adapt to such large No3 to PO4 ratio.
Also Floyd wrote there:

Shrimp has one of the lower phosphate to protein ratios, according to the Randy Holmes-Farley article from a few months ago. I'm not sure if this would mean that less P and more N would enter the system and throw everything in that direction. That would seem to go against this running philosophy about the redfield ratio of N:P in food and in absorption of nutrients by algae.
So this is probably why this happened in my tank. Because Puff, eels and gsp`s eating shrimp every day.

[SantaMonica]

Whenever you feed, you re-set the ratios in the water. So wait long term (6 months) before thinking that some type of ratio is a problem.

[spamer80]

PO4 undetectable by Salifert. NO3 about 100.

[SantaMonica]

And what is the tank and scrubber doing?

[spamer80]

Scrubber growth is great, corals feels and looks better. The in-tank algae still covering the rocks and walls but it's shorter and more easily deattaches. I don't wans to scrub it from there because I like the lot of sponges between them. There is still some long algae spots growing in tank but most are shorter than before.

[SantaMonica]

Sounds odd. Might try another nitrate kit.

[spamer80]

It`s pretty hard. My PO4 test ended yesterday and NO3 test is almost ended too, just 1-3 more checks. So I need to order both new on eBay or somewhere else.

[spamer80]

Nitrates totally refuse to go down. Still 100 or more ppm. I`ve tried to do the water change and nitrates are still 100+. In an instant all of my puffers suddenly stressed after the water change with ich outbreak. The same salt from the same bag, the same temp, the same salinity. One GSP died after one night of ich. One now laying on the bottom and heavily breathing, the eyes are completely clouded. The large porc barely eating. WTF?!

[spamer80]

Second died too just now.

[SantaMonica]

That is a bummer.

[spamer80]

Installed UV and diy skimmer. After 1 night remaining puffers feels far better, begging for food etc.
NO3 still 100 (or more) PO4 undetectable.
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[spamer80]

The large porcupine puffer and remaining gsp are now healthy again and begging for food as always. Moray eels don't give a f*ck about ich at all.

[SantaMonica]

Good to hear. Yes eels have a very thick slime coat that protects them.

[spamer80]

Some updates:
FW scrubber developed cladophora under the slime.
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SW scrubber still growing great and no more significant changes in tank even with new skimmer and 40l water changes every 3.5 days.
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[spamer80]

I`ve bought JBL NO3 test, because there is nothing else to buy and it says 40. How accurate are JBL tests?

[SantaMonica]

Accurate enough. Plenty of nitrate.

[spamer80]

No changes at all. Scrubber growing, algae growing, no3 50-100, po4 0/unknown. I'm not doing water changes anymore, parameters are stuck.
Bought 110 liters plastic canister, did 4 daily water changes. No result at all. New water is perfectly clear. Going to buy Jebao/JECOD 12000l/h pump add 3d printed mesh wheel and install to my skimmer instead of Eheim 1260.

[spamer80]

So much time have passed since my last post. The problem was solved. No mystery here. The reason of massive algae growth was not food, not weak skimmer, not water changes, not salt, not light and not anything else.
The thing which completely overpowered 200w algae scrubber, 12000l/h skimmer and water changes was just the glued in by aquarium manufacturer (Juwel) stock internal filter.
I cleaned it every week but it wasnt enough at all. So I've cut it out and removed it from all my tanks. It was good filter by design but the difference before and after is clearly visible.
No more algae in any of the display tanks and happy puffers.

[SantaMonica]

Great to hear. Yes all mechanical filters should be removed. They only starve your corals of food particles, but they generate nutrients. Better to let the particles feed your corals and small fish, and use a scrubber to remove the nutrients.

[spamer80]

All good what ends good. This was a good lesson for me and if someone else ask "I've done everything, what's wrong?", maybe someone will find this thread and ask him "do you have internal filter? If so, remove it. It can easily overpower everything, even the most powerful scrubber and algae continue to grow until you remove it.