need advice on building an algae scrubber for a shark tank

[jlinzmaier]

Helping a friend upgrade the filtration on a shark tank. Since $ is a limiting factor, we opted for an ATS as part of the filtration. Unfortunatley I don't have the dimensions on the amount of space I have to work with, but I was just wondering if anyone had any clever ideas on how to maximize efficiency or had any ideas on how to utilize an ATS on such a large tank. I'm assuming I won't have like five or six feet to create a huge ATS like I'd prefer but as soon as I get the dimesions of the space I have to work with I'll post it up. In the meantime I'd love to hear any advice or suggestions for the project.

Thanks.

Jeremy

[SantaMonica]

Depends what you mean by efficient:

Most filtering for the electricity used

Most filtering for the size

Most filtering for the maintenace needed

Most filtering for the amount of building required.

Most filtering for the cost to build

[jlinzmaier]

"Most filtering for the size" is the most important factor. Cost being second in line.

Thanks.

Jeremy

[SantaMonica]

Most powerful filtering for the size would be a low-profile T5HO unit like mine:

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/110smaller.jpg

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks! Too bad I'd need around a hundred for average filtration of a 15,000 gal shark tank.

In general, it sounds like your using more powerful lighting and more flow to maximize filtration. In addition, the lighting sounds like it very evenly covers the entire screen.

Any large scale ideas or would it be better to build several small units??

Jeremy

[johnrt]

The standard rule of thumb would be one square inch of screen, lighted both sides, per gallon of water, or 15,000 square inches.

The most economical lamps are probably 48" T5s or T8s so plan to make the unit some multiple of 48" front to back with multiple screens front to back.

You will now need 15,000 / 48 = 312 inches of total screen height, so 30 x 10" tall screens or 15 x 20" tall screens. For ease of maintenance, and assuming the tank is attended, at least briefly, 7 days a week, lets aim for 14 screens, each 24 inches tall and 48 inches long (still possible to carry), which you will clean 2 per day - forever. . .

So we might look at a setup like:

{ 0 | | 0 | | | | 0 | | 0 }
{ lamps 1 | screen 1 | lamps 2 | screen 2 | ... ... | screen 13 | lamps 13 | screen 14 | lamps 15 }
{ 0 | | 0 | | | | 0 | | 0 }

(gerrr, I went to some effort to get the spacing right, but the editor strips multiple spaces, so please pretend it looks good!)

where 0 = a lamp, | = a sheet of glass as a splash guard and {, } are reflectors. Note that only need reflectors on the end lamps, the middle lamps illuminate screens on both sides.

We need between 1/4 and 1/2 watt per gallon lighting, or between 3250 W and 7500W total. So 3250 / 15 lamp arrays = 250 W per array minimum or 500 W per array maximum.

We would like all parts of the screen to be within about 4" of a lamp, so the first lamp should run horizontally and be about 4' from the top of the screen and the last lamp about 4' from the bottom with additional lamps spaced about 8' apart for the 24' height of the screen. This might look like:

4"
0 lamp
8"
0 Lamp
8"
0 lamp
4'

We have a minimum of 3 lamps per lamp array, and each one would need to be 250 / 3 = 83 W minimum or 160 W maximum.

So I would get myself a handful (3 x 15 = 45) of Philips F48/T8/TL830/VHO/A/ALTO 3000K 80W T8 lamps, which require expensive, hard to get ballasts or a mitt full (5 x 15 = 75) of Philips F54T5/830/ HO 3000K 55W t5 lamps that use cheaper more standard ballasts. which would look like:

2"
0 lamp
5"
0 Lamp
5"
0 lamp
5"
0 Lamp
5"
0 lamp
2'

Craftily designed, it should sit on a 4 x 8 foot bench and be quite easy to work with. Other than the size, it looks much like SantaMonica's drawing.

Given the number of lamps, you may want some fans sucking air between the sheets of glass.

Have fun and make happy sharks and lots of green goo.

John T

[johnrt]

Oh yes:

Your flow would be 35 GPH x 48" x 14 screen = 23,520 Gallons per Hour.

John T

[johnrt]

The lamps and ballasts will set you back a grand, but I suspect that the rest of the build might be on the same order as some hobbyists spend on a skimmer for a large home tank.

John T

[kcress]

johnrt has done a great round up and (ugly) napkin sketch( :lol: ) for a filter for you.

Some refinements are likely.

Such as..
A shark tank is generally not bio loaded to the max. The life content is based more on inhabitant attitude. Due to this I suspect you would not need as much filtering as the rules of thumb would normally dictate. Possibly only half.

Also tanks that large may also have an outdoor component. If yours does, you can use solar. You could also build a green house like structure to house the TS if heating is an issue.

The most efficient lights currently are sodium lights (think streetlights). The spectrum for sodium lights should be fine for turf gowning.

[johnrt]

Kcress:

And I asked politely that people be kind to my drawing, my right-brain has now completely shut down. Sigh.

You have a fine point on bio load and screen size, and as you point out, we have no idea about tank lighting. If it was lighted to the rule of thumb for coral, 3 W per gallon for a shark / SPS tank ;-) , we would be looking at 15,000 x 3 = 45,000W or 112 400 W MH bulbs, assuming that the tank is only 24' deep. So if it is an indoor tank, we can assume less lighting. IE fish and live rock mostly.jlinzmaier

jlinzmaier:
If I understand it, for an ATS to work, the screen must be a great deal more brightly lit than any wet part of the system. There is no specific requirement for a huge amount of light, we should be able to drop down to 15 - 20 W per square inch as long as there are no brighter areas. That is still bright! Additionally the ATS must have more flow and turbulence than any brightly lighted part of the system (algae often grows inside clear tubing). Flow is no problem, 35 GPH for each linear inch of screen makes the screens the highest flow lighted area in the system. The inside of pumps and tubing is higher flow, but it is dark.

Low pressure sodium are efficient and the spectrum will grow goo, but they are bulky, hot and point source. Bog standard commercial / industrial fluorescent T8 and their ballasts are cheap. In Canada, I can get Philips F32/T8/830 3000K 32 W 48" T8 bulbs at Home Depot in boxes of 10 for about $35 CDN per box and 4 bulb Advance 4 ICN-4P32-CS ballasts at $29 CDN. BTW: I got 10 ICN-4P32-CSs on ebay for $7 each, in the door. . .

So half length tank at 4 to 5 feet, 7 x 48" x 24" screens, 8 light arrays with 5 - 6 F32/T8/830s each is a total of 40 lamps and 10 ballasts = 140 for the lamps and 290 for the ballasts = $430 in Canada! The wood, glass, catch tray and plumbing could be done and bring the whole project in under a grand. I just looked on Bulk Reef Supply and an Reeflo Orca 250 for a 200 - 900 Gallon tank is on sale for $800 US. You would need about 20 of these (= 120 W per skimmer x 20 skimmers = 2400W) and skimmers may not be the best thing for your tank. This is 7 cents per gallon for water care assuming they are already pumping water. Additionally, the lighting will consume about 135 W per ballast plus 4 lamps or about 1350 W for the system. You cannot do better. No way!

Please keep us advised on the tank.

John T

[jlinzmaier]

Wow!!! Thanks for the very detailed responses everyone. It truly is appreciated!!!

Considering I don't quite know how much room I have to work with I can't commit to any one design but I'll definately keep everyone posted on what we do and how we do it.

Thanks again!!

Jeremy

[SantaMonica]

.
.
Sounds like an outdoor option would be useful:



http://www.radio-media.com/fish/OutdoorSingle.jpg


http://www.radio-media.com/fish/OutdoorMulti.jpg

[jlinzmaier]

We're in Wisconsin so an outdoor anything for a fish tank is pretty much out of the question. 95 degrees in the summer and 0 or lower in winter.

Jeremy

[kcress]

Yes tube lights are best and may even be cheaper to install. But once you add in the fact that they all have to be replaced every few months sodiums that would probably need to be replaced every few years, may still be more cost effective.

jinzmaier; Unless your energy is free you would still do well to utilize a solar. You can build external units that are in tiny green houses that are insulated from poor light directions. In the winter they're closed up for hopefully some solar gain. In the summer you open them to the air and they can actually provide evaporative cooling.

[jlinzmaier]

Not sure how I could incoorporate an outdoor scrubber set up but I'll keep it in mind. Appreciate all the suggestions!

Jeremy

[ChrisD]

OK - indoor 15,000 gl shark tank. If this isn't a commercial aquarium i wanna see the house! :shock:

Think you'll need a small army to rough up the screens or find an alternative material. Also might be worth thinking ahead about how you would clean and fresh water flush these screens. Might be worth planning an in-situ process with some simple valves to throw for the fresh water. Maybe some sort of lifting capability for the screens so you can get a pan underneath to scrape onto. If there are no small fish in the tank just think of the copepod production opportunity!

[jlinzmaier]

OK - indoor 15,000 gl shark tank. If this isn't a commercial aquarium i wanna see the house! :shock:

Think you'll need a small army to rough up the screens or find an alternative material. Also might be worth thinking ahead about how you would clean and fresh water flush these screens. Might be worth planning an in-situ process with some simple valves to throw for the fresh water. Maybe some sort of lifting capability for the screens so you can get a pan underneath to scrape onto. If there are no small fish in the tank just think of the copepod production opportunity!

No, it's for a resort. Sorry to disappoint!

Thanks for the suggestions. If they do decide to go with an ATS with this system it's going to be an intersting set up, that's for sure.

Jeremy

[bbsaquatics]

Thank you so much Jeramy for all your work. I am the one that is going to be doing the upgrading on the tanks for this resort and I asked Jeramy to help look for some cost effective ideas. I think that using an ATS will be quite bennificial. Here is what I have to deal with.

10000 gallon tank, 2000 galllon tank and a 800 gallon tank on one filtration system. My project is to seperate the three tanks into two systems. ONe for the sharks and one for the 800 fish only.

I want to utalize the ATS on the shark setup and if I were to put a skimmer on the setup as well what size would yall recamend. I am also thinkin of using a Uv unit since I can get a new Mega UV 660W for a heck of a price.

[kcress]

The problem we are having on suggesting sizes is this: The loading that we work with is often very high. Demanding a certain filter area for gallonage of the tanks. With smaller filter systems like we're generally discussing around here we can over size a TS and... so what if we are too big. It cost another 5 dollars. With a system as big as yours using the standard numbers could be off by possibly more than 100%. And when talking as large as yours that could be more than 5 dollars... It also means floor space. Perhaps lots and lots of floor space which costs money too. Too much light and you may be wasting a thousand dollars a month on electricity and hundreds more on 3 month bulb replacements.

I pay a quarter dollar a killowatt hour... You may be paying that much someday. This is why I'm SERIOUSLY suggesting you consider solar solutions. BIG turf scrubber systems are almost exclusively solar powered. A solar designer could design an effective system that would work in the far cold north.

Barring solar you would need to do everything possible to maximize the light usage. You cannot consider reflectors nor bulb surfaces not facing turf.

Without solar I believe you really have to look at mechanical methods like (urp) skimmers as they can do huge scale with less energy. It's not as good a filtration method in our options but it would likely cost less to operate.

A totally conservative TS sizing has already been offered earlier in this thread. Suggested TS styles were also shown.

One thing you could do is design for the offered conservative system. Provide everything needed to support that sizing, that is the power and floor space then build only a quarter or half the system. Get the system up and running and see if you need more. If you do you can add it.

[ChrisD]

Another thought... do you actually need the other beenfits of ATSs associated with reef tanks (biodiversity). It would be interesting (if possible) to understand what the effect is of millions of 'pods that would be released into your system via the scrubbers if there is not the ecosystem to consume them. I guess in a reef tank the consumotion by coral and subsequent growth leading to fragging is a very slow nutrient export. If they were to simply die off do they then just fuel more algae growth, consumed by bigger 'pods to produce larvae again... very cyclical. Might be a very small factor compared to the export by algae though.

I think Kcress is right on the energy consumption. ATS seem very ecological in terms of biodiversity in a domestic reef tank but hardly sustainable from a commercial point of view unless existing sunlight is used. Are 'light pipes' (highly reflective flxible ducting effectvely) an option here to get natural light to where you need it?

I make it 140sqft of single sided screen based on domestic aquarium loading. Difficult without knowing the resoort layout but is there an option to incorporate a wall / slope of that size that runs into the tanks? Could be used as a bit of a feature like the 'sheet of water' waterfalls off the edge and also, being visible to the visitors, could be an educational element too re the role of algae in our oceans. Lighting can then be shared with the topside of the tank (if this is an open area) and supplemented with natural daylight / artifical commercial halides as necessary.

[kcress]

Nice points Chris and light pipes are an excellent suggestion!