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AlgaeNator
10-31-2009, 11:59 AM
Hi Guys,

I have been working on a new hybrid horizontal/vertical ATS design for a scrubbing sump... or a "SCRUMP" as I like to call it, if you will. I plan on producing these shortly, in order to take the place of my Vortex Needle Wheel Protien Skimmers which are being taken down from my site soon. Since I need to replace my water treatment products anyways, and I really like the scrubbers, why not offer the "Victory V Scrump" on my site? http://www.nautilusreef.com

I have been running a version of ATS for about 2 mos, and have been skimmerless for 4weeks now, and am very happy with the ATS concept and performance so for. I have been running my prototype Victory Scrump for about 3 weeks now to prove the concept and it's working VERY well. (Pictures/diagrams coming... see below) My corals are healthier than EVER, Two of MY RIC's that were dying going clear, are now SPLITTING? after removing the skimmer? Im amazed actually at how well my other softies are doing too. In my case, I might not be typical though, as I think i was OVERSKIMMING my tank with my larger skimmers i build and sell removing the good stuff with the bad :) Having studied ATS for awhile, I like the features that a Vertical Screens offer, (double sided very good use of space) but I dont like the requirement of lighting it from BOTH SIDES. The HORIZONTAL method is less efficient use of space (one sided) but it allows for good cascade of the flow, different water spray options and design options, and (I think) better lighting options, which is being able to successfully light it from above vs the sides...

I think I have solved this problem by coming up with the "Victory V Scrump" A Hybrid Design/method for the placment of the screens... Place the screens ANGLED inwards in V shape in a long trough along each side With lights placed ABOVE them. This is why I call my design the "VICTORY Scrubber Scrump" I was trying to figure out a way to maximize surface area, and I came up with the "V" shape of the screens along the sides of the trough, this utilizes EVERY inch of the trough and sheets while still being able to light it from above like a horizontal scrubber. The trick was to figure a way to allow lights to be placed ABOVE them without having to have them on each side like a TWO sided scrubber. I think I found it with the "V" design. The V shape placement of the screens allows for large sheets to be placed along the full 24" of the trough, but angled INWARD towards the center of the trough, which does two things..

1. The angled sheets are semi-horizontal in that, the water sprayed from above cascades downward across the sheets face, which meanwhile are exposed to lighting on the entire surface area. The sheets DO NOT have to be placed inside the PVC pipe to support them or power them, they rest on the sides of the trough the slotted spray bars trickle down over them, to clean them is a breeze, simply tilt them out and back in for cleaning.

2. It allows the lighting to come down from ABOVE vs the sides. The V shape angles and exposes the screen surface material towards the lights even when the lighting is placed directly above them, they still get excellent lighting coverage.

For the Prototype trough I just purchased a flower box and modded it supported it with cutout plastic eggcrate to lower it, (my stand is short) and used Rubbermaid container for return, and fixture is Reptile light with two angled screw in bases with 2x 25w CPF floods
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/protoscrumpfull.jpg

Here is how I setup my current prototype (will get some pix up shortly) Im using 2 ea 25W Floods in fixture
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/VictoryScrumpPrototypesetup.jpg

here's more
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/scrumpside.jpg


With light removed looking at one of the screens and PVC plumbing

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/protoscrumpfullnolight.jpg

One side of 20"L x 8" H mesh screen ready for first cleaning after 12 days
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/Scrumscreen12days.jpg
My Scrump Design does a few things I think are critical to success... It has large surface area for the ATS sheets, its easy to acess/clean, and be lighted with simple lights or with a variety of avaialable fixtures, with one huge difference, it will NOT be lighted from the sides but from ABOVE. It can be powered (as in my case) from the overflow(s) or an external pump.

And most importantly to me the EFFICIENCY of this Hybrid ATS scrubber: With this Design: The surface area of screens with this V design is = to that of a Vertical double sided Scrubber going the length of the trough

kcress
10-31-2009, 12:02 PM
I'd call it a V-Scrump myself. "Victory" = confusing.

Pictures man - where - are - the - pictures?

AlgaeNator
10-31-2009, 12:16 PM
For production MODEL: It is a very simple design that consists of two modular acrylic rectangle tanks: a long 24" trough and a return section with plumbing that connects them both. They are seperate and can be moved around. It utilizes TWO large screens on each side to form the "V" inside the trough. The screens in my prototype are 20"L x 8" H, and placed on each side below the spray bars, these will be the same. I used acrylic sheets for support behind the mesh, with the canvass mesh epoxied to them which is roughed up using hole saw for the surfaces (for now). The light fixture I plan on offering will rest on top of the trough, and will be the standard reptile hood W/ 2-CF Floods with reflectors, or 24" HO- T5 hood.

Trough:
The trough section which holds the two ATS scrubber sheets in a "V" shape, can be set up in a VARIETY of ways under or out of the stand, depending on your avaialable space. The Scrubber section is a trough like acrylic tank measuring 10x10x24", which has two 1/2" Slotted spray bars (pics coming ont this too) with slots spaced out about 2" apart on each side. It has a 1" PVC Drain underneath/or on end (depending on setup) using a UNISEAL on it, this can be centered or placed at the end of the Scrubber trough for drainage back into the return section. The trough will have a small space saving Acrylic single support on the NON Return Side End to hold it up in place. The other side of the trough will either have ANOTHER centered support (for lower installs) or REST on top of the return section keeping that end up in place, The trough section will then dump into the movable modular RETURN section which is another acrylic tank measuring about 10H x 12W x 16L. The return section will have an adjustable baffle to keep MB away as much as possible from return pump.

Modular Return:
One way to setup the V Scrump when WIDTH of stand is issue but you have H, is the trough sits ON TOP OF the return section allowing the return section to SLIDE under the trough to save space. (drain in center) this brings the end of the return to the end of the trough for space saving. Either way you choose, it drains INTO the return section using gravity. This is a good method for smaller WIDTH but TALLER stands which can accomodate a higher TROUGH section but not a LONGER Scrump. (see diagrams below). I find a lower trough is a better trough for access and cleaning/inspection and lighting space. (my stand could be taller). For Longer Width stands which are LOWER, the Scrump can be made with the drain line near the END or side end of the trough VS center so the Return section can placed at the end of the trough. Yet another even more space saving method which will LOWER the trough even more, is to slot the return section side that supports the trough, the width of the Trough, and then slide the trough partially into/above the return section thus lowering the trough and saving space. And finally the trough can be lowered to just ABOVE the return section with plumbing entering SUBMERSED below the top off level of the return section. (This is how I have my setup right now for the prototype.) I wanted to keep the trough lower for access and light space on top, but was concerned putting the drain line BELOW the water level in the return section might cause HEAD pressure and thus the trough would fill up and the balance between overflows and return would not be equal.

AlgaeNator
10-31-2009, 12:39 PM
For the production version everything will be acrylic and much nicer looking. I just made the prototype to TEST my theories and the idea.

The SCrump idea is a very simple design that consists of two modular acrylic rectangle tanks: a long trough and return section with plumbing that connects them both some PVC spray bars, two long mesh screens, and finally a covered Light on top.

Here are some drawings for some options for the produced modular design and other plumbing options.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/Scrump2.jpg

AlgaeNator
10-31-2009, 01:38 PM
Heres a drawing of my slotted 1/2" Spray Bars which feed the trough on each side above each screen. Since I dont insert the screens into the PVC I came up with the slotted idea. I liked the drilled perforated HOLE spray bar idea and tried that, but I found the holes clogged too easily, and that type were also LOUDER than the slots. But I think they were best at covering the screens.

In my prototype I am testing different bar connection methods. Right now, I feed ONE of my spray bars the end, and the other one in the middle with a T fitting to test how each method works.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/slottedspraybar.jpg

Drainage using overflow method to power it:

What I found was that 1" Drain lines MUST be used if you plan on powering the Scrump with your overflows like I am, in order to keep the rate of flow constant and even from tank back to return section. Also the larger pipes move more water in greater volume and less speed= quiet. My main concern lowering the trough and thus having to feed the drain line it into the SIDE of the return section, was that the HEAD pressure created from the submersed drain line of the trough, from the RETURN section water levels, would not allow the GRAVITY flow from the TROUGH to keep up with the return pump thus filling the Trough, and raising the water level in the trough. (not ideal)

However even using a 950gph return pump and a split overflows to power my Scrump, the trough itself stays just barely filled with water, keeps the drain inside it silent, and also keeps the cascading water off the screens flowing down into the water almost silent.

IF you powered the Scrump with a pump vs overflows, keeping up with the overflow is not an issue, also if you have the H (i didnt) you can RAISE the trough up in the ONTOP of Return section mode and let gravity do its thing, spilling the water from the Scrump back safely/quietly into the return section without fear of backing up the drain line of the trough.

AlgaeNator
10-31-2009, 03:04 PM
For the prototype I purchased a REPTILE two bulb metal fixture. I liked this since it had Two sockets, you could angle them and it was the right size.

Each socket/ light has its own power on off, and cords. I just leave them on and connect the fixture to a timer.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/scrumplightinside.jpg

Being able to place your lights ABOVE the ATS and even INTO it, if you want (using several straight down CF with no reflectors) give you a LOT of options for lighting the SCrump. Even small HO T5 low profile fixtures could be used as well, for this design, you will need about 24" of light fixture to cover the trough.

I just used the Reptile lite with 3200K Floods, for the prototype. I think adding ONE more socket and combining the cords into ONE would be cool, or a HO T5 fixture for the final commecrial version. Since I plan on putting kits together for people I want to use pre-built UL fixtures for the kits no matter what type they are. (safe) and offer them choices. So far for the 24" Scrump the two CF Floods appear to be doing just fine, the light is spread very nicely in the trough, and it reflects all over the place since the bulbs are down into the Scrump slightly.

kcress
11-01-2009, 12:44 PM
Thanks for the pics!

Looks well thought out. Innovative. Should work pretty well.

I'd think linear lights would be superior to spots for that configuration. I'm having a hard time even imagining anything like a uniform light pattern with your configuration.

Also I think your 1" drain is a disaster waiting to happen. You should consider a larger one or possibly a second one that is dry and only comes into service once the other is plugged - possibly both.

SantaMonica
11-01-2009, 03:00 PM
Nice. Looks similar to Broder's.


The surface area of screens with this V design is = to that of a Vertical double sided Scrubber going the length of the trough

Correct. But remember it's getting half the light. A vertical has two lights, one on each side, so each side gets all the power of one light. With yours, there is just one light, that is shared by two screens. So with yours you'll need to double the wattage in the center (goal = 1w per gallon).


I liked the drilled perforated HOLE spray bar idea and tried that, but I found the holes clogged too easily, and that type were also LOUDER than the slots.

Also, drilled holes do not flow as much water as a slot.

AlgaeNator
11-01-2009, 06:37 PM
Thanks for the pics!
I'd think linear lights would be superior to spots for that configuration. I'm having a hard time even imagining anything like a uniform light pattern with your configuration.

Algeantor wrote: "Being able to place your lights ABOVE the ATS and even INTO it, if you want (using several straight down CF with no reflectors) give you a LOT of options for lighting the SCrump. Even small HO T5 low profile fixtures could be used as well"

Agreed about the spots, pointing at each other and instered slightly down in there, light is going EVERYWHERE that I can tell.. but.. as you can see above, I mentioned the best method or another method using linear CPF, or T5 for this application is the way to go. I was for the proto, I was already planning on changing them out this week to 4ea LF's..similar to Broder's design. I was just being lazy and cheap for the short term proto :) I figured long term I will add two more smaller CPF spirals centered in that fixture extening a bit less INTO the trough, for a total of 4ea x 45W Linear's in their place of the two 90W floods, to run the proto long term, or until I find an affordable VIABLE 24" T5 fixture.

Though i am getting good growth on the mesh screens with the two floods now, I suppose and and am sure it could be better. Also as I mentioned above, the endgame goal for the production model will be to power the Victory V Scrump with a single low profile 24" x 4 tube T5 HO fixture that would sit neatly on top of the trough, it would really be nice looking, and is the actually where I will probably end up when I offer them as a kit bundled together on my site. I like the idea of a lense protected light source where the bulbs/sockets arent directly exposed to splashing and creep as they are with open lights to the sides/near above/in the Scrump. And even though a T5 fixture will direct the light more downward than a Linear CPF spiral light would, the fact the ATS screens are angled in, means they will STILL get great light coverage if the light source is directly from Above. Not only that, I wont have to BUILD the fixture or modify it in anyway to sell to customers. The lamps/fixture itself, will be UL listed and safe and probably drop shipped from supplier.

Since I am building the rest of it, I want to simplfy the process as much as possible, these will be WAY more easy for me to build than my skimmers were.. :) heheh

The Spots are really only needed when you want to direct the light for a vertical screen from the sides, in this case the more diffused and UN directed the light source the better. Plus, linear lights are smaller cheaper, and will not be as exposed to the water/mist/creep that the spots are getting over time due to the fact they will not protrude AS much into the trough since the base/bulbs are usually shorter. Which really makes this design even more simple, just using regular spiral type cf bulbs that fire in all directions. I just wanted to use these for a bit since I Just PAID for them and they were NEW! ahahha



Also I think your 1" drain is a disaster waiting to happen. You should consider a larger one or possibly a second one that is dry and only comes into service once the other is plugged - possibly both.

Well its something to consider for production models. In my case my Scrump is powered by my two overflow drain lines which are protected by a pair of my CJStandpipes in the overflow, which are protected due to the design utilizing a bell housing around the drain line, which only measure 1/8" gap around the pipe, so nothing large enough (snails, debris) can even get by those housings to allow them to go down into the drain lines into trough. Whats MORE worrisome is the SLOTS clogging! :) Unlikely they would all get it completely, but they must be maintained and cleaned regularily. Having two sets helps. . Powering it with overflows works for me because of my pipes, But not everyone would have my pipes installed so possibly TWO drain lines protected with coarse foam, and or one larger one would be better, or even a real mini CJStandpipe installed on the trough drain line.. mmmm....

AlgaeNator
11-01-2009, 06:43 PM
SantaMonica Nice. Looks similar to Broder's

Thanks SM, Im pretty happy with it, I looked at his design and thread when he posted a link on my "See Scrubber" he gets great growth and has a good solid build, it's very similar in some ways, except his design is much larger (I was aiming for under sump compact like yours) his also uses the mesh hanging down on each side in sheets dangling vertically, the end result and design are very similar to his, that is true..

But to be honest It was YOUR dual light trough ATS that inspired the trough idea , I just was looking for a way to light it from ABOVE with a SINGLE light source(s), so actually its a Hybrid of your design and also Broder's. Also I was inspired by and kinda liked that other guy routestomarket's idea for the dual Horizontal Scrubber and was looking for a way to somehow build a semi horizonatal screen method, and be able use ALL of the screen area, and the V setup did it

Correct. But remember it's getting half the light. A vertical has two lights, one on each side, so each side gets all the power of one light. With yours, there is just one light, that is shared by two screens. So with yours you'll need to double the wattage in the center (goal = 1w per gallon)

As for the lights, I'm not sure what you mean by "one light" if you mean one light "source" than I agree. But I Actually have TWO spotlights in the trough, 2x 23W/90W Equivalent which is 180W total light wattage there, about 50W actual CFL watts. My system is about 100Ga total, so doubling it using 4 ea linear CPFL, as Broder did, should do it for me too. For the proto I have already decided (as Kcress pointed out too) that the simple non reflector/spotlights linear CPF bulbs would be more efficient light source with this design, as they can fire in all directions. (including side to side) It will work better than the setup I have now, until I can locate an affordable Single T5 HO 4 bulb fixture to bundle with it.

Lighting it from above, was my goal with this design, being able to use ONE SINGLE 4 bulb HO T5 fixture mounted above it, would give the Scrump a VERY low profile while getting good light spread and W/GA.

Broder's method uses 4 Linear 45W bulbs which seem to work great for him, I will do the same mod to my Reptile light in the short run. Since my screens are also to the sides of the light source as well, not just under/infront of them like a Vertical design, with they V design they are only partially UNDER them

So, Using those linear vs Spots makes more sense (as I also already noted in my posts above). Right now I have the two spots pointed towards each other so the get pretty good coverage and growth has been fine so far IMHO, as I think that trough refracts a lot of light off the water below and inside the trough itself to some degree. The spots are pretty close to the screens too.

What I would like to find is a 4 Bulb T5 HO 24" Fixture that is affordable I could bundle it with the SCRUMP kit. I have found a few, but they aint cheap! On the other hand, Its hard to justify spending $200.00 on a T 5 HO sump light on the proto when I can mod that Reptile light for under 20$ including lights to prove concept :)

Anyone who has a good suggestion for 24" T5 4 bulb HO fixture thats affordable, I am open to it

AlgaeNator
11-01-2009, 07:53 PM
Also about the flooding issue KCress, if the trough were to backup and the 1" drain line totally clogged, the water level would drop in the return section and the pump would pretty quickly start pumping air/water as the levels dropped in the return section below the pump's intake. The trough is pretty big in volume (larger than return section) and will hold enough water before spilling over due to the fact the Return pump in the now starved return section, would start sucking wind/water first, thus reducing/stopping flow from the overflow standpipes. Not a really great scenario either, but better than a flood I suppose.

And SM, About the slots, I agree they do allow for more water flow than the holes and run quieter too.. I do wonder about LARGER holes and FEWER of them though. (something to try) The Trick is getting them to flow EVENLY without having a mesh screen inserted into it to divide up the flow. Also like the holes, the slots also get clogged with small debris even, and the flow gets dicey sporatic (not stopped) at times if not watched. I am trying to come up with some out of the box thinking for getting water to my V Screens which wont clog and give good coverage and flow but is quiet with little spray (creep). I need an inspirational moment like the V screen idea came to me, as coming up with a good safe/quiet/even water flow delivery method has been a challenge and is STILL a challenge today that I have not overcome as of this posting.

And having studied the nature of water flow inside pipes with slots/holes/mesh or no mesh, I find the flow speed of course, is greater at the START of the slots/holes than it is near the end (due to the directional flow of the water if its introduced from ONE end.) You would THINK that this would cause MORE water to flow out at the start of the slots where the water enters, but actually, it's LESS, the speed of the water carries it OVER the slots unless they are LARGER/WIDER than the ones further down the line, or somehow deflected to flow out of the first series of slots (inserted screens do this) This is why im experimenting with delivering the water with a T fitting on one side of my trough, to see how it is when the flow is INTRODUCED in the CENTER of the spray bar, then it hits the T fitting (which is slotted itslef at the base) and shoots to EACH side. Seems to work ok but needs perfecting too.


There has to be a better way, I just hope I can find it.

kcress
11-01-2009, 09:20 PM
Who's this KKress you keep conjuring up? :roll:

Sounds like your feeder pipe is not 'flooded' but running as what's called an 'open channel'. I mention this as it would all change if you transited from one mode to the other. Another words if you went flooded channel you would likely get more water out of the first slots. Perhaps some slight modification that brings you to sort of half and half would even things out.

AlgaeNator
11-02-2009, 12:46 AM
Kcress,

My spray bars are each connected to 1 drain line from my overflow which has a CJStandpipe at its origination inside the overflow. Not sure what you mean by "flooded" and "open channel" and all that stuff, but I think due to the overflows being mixed with water, its more open than flooded, because the CJStandpipes mix in AIR with the water to break the siphon and its gravity fed and not under that much pressure/volume as it would be if it was supplied by a pump directly. So the water is flowing but its broken up a bit and aerated from the overflows and gravity fed.

I have tested running the slots with screen and without inserted screen, with a pump pushing the water under pressure (flooded?) and that is even WORSE, the water at point of entry, moves quickly by the first slots and amazingly the slots at the end of the spray bar flow greater and harder. I actually enlarged the slot in my hanging VERTICAL screen nearest the input side to increas flow at the point of entry. I would NARROW the slot down at the other side.. I actually used TABS on my first screen at the point of entry to DIVERT water at the start of the slot so it would get watered at that end of the screen.

The drilled hole method seemed to be the most even of all the flows as the spray bar pretty much pressurized slightly with the water as it was restricting flow a bit.

ChrisD
11-02-2009, 04:44 AM
Algaenator

Here's some thoughts including things I wish I could do if I had the money and/or time and/or space....

Waterflow through unit
To me the problem here is that, especially if running of the tank overflow, people's' flow will vary. With the diy nature of the current units people do not have such serious issue with widening the slot as they made it in the first place. If, however, they have spent hard-earned cash to buy a pre-made option, taking a dremel to it is less attractive. So, if you had a mini trough on each side above the start of each screen with an adjustable slot in the bottom that would give some versatility. Any restriction on the flow across the slot would be somewhat balanced by a rise in water level in the feeding trough, hence increased pressure throught he slot. You could incorporate an emergency overflow in each feed trough should the slots get blocked. This may also help reduce noise as you could feed the trough with a large diameter pipe.

Lighting
I am using 4 18W CFL bulbs on my 8x11" vertical for my 55g and I have had a 2 degree CELSIUS increase in temparature. This is heat I really don't want! T5HO would be great due to remote ballast, LEDs even better (especially given the lamp replacement frequency). I will probably drop to 4 11W and see if this reduced the heat impact but still provides suitable growth. Make sure you think about avoiding heat input / incorporating fans to provide cooling.

Angle of the screens
Increasing the angle of the screens makes the unit narrower and gets closer to the benefits of the vertical design. Maybe there needs to be some trialling to determine an optimum pitch.

Hope this helps

ThePisces
11-02-2009, 12:03 PM
Hi, interesting concept. Just one thing I thought I would mention is the use of a Rubbermaid container. Not sure if you read the article by Eric Bourneman on Marinedepot.com about problems with toxins leaching from a Rubbermaid trash can? You said yours was a prototype design but as soon as I saw the words Rubbermaid mentioned I thought I would give you the heads up on these products. Not sure if all their plastics are the same but better safe than sorry.

Cheers,

The Pisces

AlgaeNator
11-02-2009, 02:08 PM
Algaenator

Here's some thoughts including things I wish I could do if I had the money and/or time and/or space....

Waterflow through unit
To me the problem here is that, especially if running of the tank overflow, people's' flow will vary. With the diy nature of the current units people do not have such serious issue with widening the slot as they made it in the first place. If, however, they have spent hard-earned cash to buy a pre-made option, taking a dremel to it is less attractive. So, if you had a mini trough on each side above the start of each screen with an adjustable slot in the bottom that would give some versatility. Any restriction on the flow across the slot would be somewhat balanced by a rise in water level in the feeding trough, hence increased pressure throught he slot. You could incorporate an emergency overflow in each feed trough should the slots get blocked. This may also help reduce noise as you could feed the trough with a large diameter pipe.

thanks for reply Chris D. I saw that mini trough idea, is it the one where they cut PVC pipe, placed below a what looks to be a drip slotted spray bar? If so, That is something I do want to experiment with, I think that's what you are talking about and ajust that without having to cut/mod it. I am still looking at ways to let the water flow unrestricted, and then basically cascade/SHEET off onto the Screens somehow. Keys to solution are unrestricted even flow, less clogging, little as possible spray/spattering to eliminate creep and evap. If I come up with something viable I will most certainly share it.

Your point about an assembled unit and flow rates is a good one, It needs to be made clear if using overflows to power it, that It's up to the person how to run the supply of water to the trough, and results here may vary. But its better to try to figure out a method BEFORE that, one which reduces MOST user problems when using overflow power. Using overflow power, yes flow rates will vary depending on return pump sides and head pressure etc.. So a better adjustable method needs to be found before it can be put out on market powered by varied overflow flow rates. I think the overflow flow rate variation problem could be controlled however, by simply diverting some flow (it its too much) or running wide open as In my case. But they must have a MINIMUM amount of return flow rate to make it work.

The reality is, for most users, the most likely option is providing a bundled TESTED dedicated pump used to power it, which can throttled back if needed tuning it just right as the user wants. Also it would not be dependent on overflow rates or give the potential for flooding wither as its just cycling water. Not only that the pump could have a coarse pre filter on the intake (will need cleaning) which could prevent Debris from getting to the slots/holes of the spray bars. (another plus) Iwould like to be able to offer the SCrump as "OVERFLOW POWERED", as an OPTION, though if at all possible. For me, personally, I am a big fan of using LESS pumps as possible as they also ADD heat to the water too, among other things like electric bills and maintenance. So for me getting a proto to work on my own tank using overflows seemed logical and more of a GREEN way to go. If figured i already GOT 900gph circulating through my volume, why not try to use it?

Lighting
I am using 4 18W CFL bulbs on my 8x11" vertical for my 55g and I have had a 2 degree CELSIUS increase in temparature. This is heat I really don't want! T5HO would be great due to remote ballast, LEDs even better (especially given the lamp replacement frequency). I will probably drop to 4 11W and see if this reduced the heat impact but still provides suitable growth. Make sure you think about avoiding heat input / incorporating fans to provide cooling.

The trough will be fairly open on each side dpending on light source used should cool farily well on its own, but something to consider again, is, this is where being able to use existing flow shines, as you have one less pump heating water as well

Angle of the screens
Increasing the angle of the screens makes the unit narrower and gets closer to the benefits of the vertical design. Maybe there needs to be some trialling to determine an optimum pitch.
another good point could make screens more vertical since light is centered in middle.. but they do also run more quiet partially angled water slows as it falls, also I put drain line in between them to kinda support the angle
Hope this helps

AlgaeNator
11-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Hi, interesting concept. Just one thing I thought I would mention is the use of a Rubbermaid container. Not sure if you read the article by Eric Bourneman on Marinedepot.com about problems with toxins leaching from a Rubbermaid trash can? You said yours was a prototype design but as soon as I saw the words Rubbermaid mentioned I thought I would give you the heads up on these products. Not sure if all their plastics are the same but better safe than sorry.
I am using the clear type rubbermaid container for the return, I think the trough is PVC or ABS (will verify) but should be fine short term as this is only going to be up a short time while i prove concept. Besides.. the algae will consume toxins and die before the fish and corals? (hopefully hehe) lol Jk..
Cheers,

The Pisces

SantaMonica
11-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Chris: Put a fan on it; the temps will be back down to normal.

ChrisD
11-03-2009, 02:18 AM
**Thread hijack** !!!

Thanks SM

Just getting a power supply to add a fan (will use a spare 92mm PC fan and see how it goes). Would rather not add the temp in the first place though as the fan further increases electricity consumption (minimal I know) plus increases top off amounts hence more water consumption.

I did back off the lighting to a 17 hrs on, 7 off and it's brought it to a more steady 38 Celsius so I'm happier with that. Might stick with the 18W and 18 hrs once fan is set up until the DT is clean and then drop to 11W lamps to see if it will sustain a clean DT (will still be 0.8W per gallon).

Might even look at making my own led grow lights. Look slike it would be about £60 for all the components. Not bad considering they will run for years without changes and only consumem about 14W.

**hijack over - sorry Algaenator :oops: **

Algaenator - just had a thought on an adjustable slot design...
Are there two standard sizes of rigid pipe where one fits nicely inside another? Then you could cut a large rectangular opening in each and rotate them relative to each other to adjust slot size. Similar technique to drilling through the side of a loosely fitted end cap and pipe then twisting to adjust air flow on a durso standpipe. When it comes to cleaning simply open up the slot and any debris will easily be flushed out.

AlgaeNator
11-03-2009, 10:51 AM
**Thread hijack** !!!


**hijack over - sorry Algaenator :oops: **

Algaenator - just had a thought on an adjustable slot design...
Are there two standard sizes of rigid pipe where one fits nicely inside another? Then you could cut a large rectangular opening in each and rotate them relative to each other to adjust slot size. Similar technique to drilling through the side of a loosely fitted end cap and pipe then twisting to adjust air flow on a durso standpipe. When it comes to cleaning simply open up the slot and any debris will easily be flushed out.

No worries M8, its all good and heat is relevant to the thread something to think about!.... Interesting idea on the adjustable slotted pipes.. I will ponder that, and can look into that.. 1/2" PVC will slip pretty good into 3/4" PVC not sure how that would work though, I will be setting up a testing rig in my shop to test some other ideas I have as well as that one. Once I have my test rig setup I can really try all kinda things.

Right now Im working on testing narrow long thin Acrylic "Deflector" INSERTS, made out of thin plastic , They will go INTO and HANG on a slotted pipe (similar to how screens now are inserted into or below the slots with existing designs). I will use my "Zip Tie free" design to hold the acrylic "deflectors" in place inside the slots. I will use 1/8" very thin acrylic that hangs INSIDE the slot, it will be about 20" Long by 1/2 -1" H, so about 1/2" will hang below the slotted pipes to cascade deflect the water to the screen below. It's setup grab the flow inside the pipe and cascade it gently down ONTO the sheets BELOW It. So basically instead of the screen being inserted into the pipe, my short H sections of Acrylic will be inserted and will divert the flow down and across the L of the screens, allowing the flow to basically cascade down the screens on each side from the acrylic inserts which will be angled towards them. I will draw up the concept might be easier to visualize it that way, also maybe take a pic or two.

Even this method will need maintenance and cleaning and will clog up partially, eventually, but so far, my first attempt seems to work pretty good. Just need to tweak the flow and get the slot sizes down. I would prefer as LARGE a gap around the Acrylic as possible to allow for debris to pass. We see how that works and when the slot size becomes too large and counter productive to the system/flow in order to carry the flow across the 20" span of spray bar (a challenge). Maybe there is a way to create a hole thats large enough somewhere in the pipe to pass the larger debris that would clog the slot further down acting like a "cleanout" of sorts?

mmmm...

AlgaeNator
11-03-2009, 06:35 PM
Here is a drawing of my latests concoction, its another hybrid design gleaned from Vertical ATS scrubbers using the standard slot/zip tie type spray bar to move water onto/across the ATS screen. But instead of attaching the ATS SCREEN to the pipe, My idea is to use a short strip of 1/8" 20" x 1-1.5" H Acrylic inserted into the slot to be uses as a "deflector or DRIP STRIP". This will allow me to direct the water down onto my V screens which will be free and loose from the pipe, just resting inside the trough on the side walls NOT inserted into the tubing as normal vertical screens are. So the drip strip takes the place of the ATS screen inside the Tubing basically. It performs the same duty as the screen, but it drips/directs water down to the V screens on each side.

The insertion of the screen into the spray bar (as with standard vertical ATS), and or this Deflector material seems to actually work the best so far of any method I have tested, including slots, holes etc.. and also, as far as being able to move water across a distance when the flow is introduced from one end of the pipe, it has good gaps to prevent clogging, and provides even coverage of water over the full length of the Screens.

The deflector will be notched with my other idea "NO ZIP TIE" tabs at each end, which allows the Strip to be supported inside the tubing and slot without the need for any Zip ties or other connectors. The tabs hold the Strip in place as they extend slightly BEYOND the slot on one side resting on solid tubing, and on the other the CAP will hold and support the tab from droping through the slot, or the slots made deep enough on each end to enable the deflector to slide in on one side enough to allow the other side to go into the slot, then slide back to center to hold it.

I did a beta test with a similar setup using a small L shaped deflector made of very thin plastic to prove the concept, and it seems to be working pretty well. I will setup a REAL version of this shortly. Again main thing is to have the SLOT as wide as possible to allow debris to pass making for less upkeep and prevent clogging, while allowing good flow across the screen's 20" Length.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/AcrylicDeflectorStrip.jpg

AlgaeNator
11-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Also changed out lights, removed the spotlights and installed 2ea 30w 3000k linear standard CPFL so no more floodlights.

Will add another center 2 ea CPFL shortly to increase to 4 CPFL screw ins for a total = 120W true (not equiv) of total power. Or over 400W equiv of Lighting.

Hopefully this weekend I will get some time to build the drip strip deflector and do some testing, will take some pics.

kcress
11-05-2009, 03:03 AM
That should definitely get things cranking!

ChrisD
11-05-2009, 03:14 AM
Algaenator - live detail re my experience on cooling....

Last night I put a basic 60mm computer fan so it is blowing down over the screen due to my temperature issue. From a very short period (only about 9 hours) it seems to have brought my temperature down from 28.5oC to 27oC. May be partly due to the main lights cycle etc - will check tonight when I get home. I only had a spare 60mm fan, a 120 would be much better adn I am only running at 6V so it's not pushing a lot of air and is totally silent but seems to have had a dramatic effect.

I would consider 2 areas for ventilation:
1. Can you design it so the CFLs are within their own enclosure that can then have a PC fan mounted to extract the hot air (2 would be better - one push, 1 pull). This will keep the lamp temperature down and (assuming tehy behave like like linear T5s) improve the light output plus extend life.
2. Try to design in a fan to push some air across the screen. A variable speed option would be good to balance cooling vs evaporation and noise. This can be done by using a variable output transformer (mine has a simple switch to choose between 3,4.5,6,9 or 12V or a PC fan speed controller (some fans come with them already attached).

kcress
11-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Chris you say the temp went down. What temp?

ChrisD
11-05-2009, 03:36 PM
The tank water temperature

kcress
11-05-2009, 05:57 PM
I could easily see a degree or two when pointing a fan at that wall of water. Evaporation would probably triple and you'd export the lighting heat to boot.

AlgaeNator
11-06-2009, 03:37 AM
Chris D. Interesting idea, I could easily surround the bulbs with acrylic tubing, but if you notice with CPFL they have the starter/tranformer/ballasts in the BASES, thats where they get hot and heat up, prolly 2x the bulbs itself, they really need some kinda heat sink around the base and or metal fins around it, at base of the lamps put some air across THAT and you cool the bulb big time. Maybe a Edsion base with heat sink? Now you talking.

Putting fans on the flow will really speed up EVAP which out here in SOCAL its ALREADY so dry I put a gallon almost every day in as it is.. hehe.. But thats a good affordable way to cool the water and cool the lamps if you are willing to lose H20 in the process.'

KCress,

I agree I think the 4 bulb unit using the CPF with no reflectors will really help kick start it.

Also I think I found a good material for the ATS screens that is very affordable, gluable, easy to work with, non toxic and should hold up in the reef tank

I will test it before I release it so as not to waste anyones time. I may post it anyways so stay tuned.. I dont see how it could NOT work at this point from what I can tell it has EVERYTHING needed to work for Algae Spores to cling to and flourish, but you dont know till you try it in real life.

kcress
11-06-2009, 12:02 PM
Hardybacker with stucco on it! :lol:

Stucco will rip your flesh off. Turf would probably love it.

AlgaeNator
11-07-2009, 10:28 PM
KCress..

yes I have lost flesh on knuckles over the years, and bled all over it, on that subject I couldnt agree more.. Great flesh ripper!

Not sure about he leaching of the HB and stucco, but would prolly be fine.

I need to get on with my new material Idea which will be installed over acrylic.. I think if the material holds up/is durable/allows growth, then we have a winner here..also very cheep.

Also havent given up on standard SLATE screens.. Rock is good.. Nature uses rock.. so should we? hehhe..


CU tonite

johnrt
11-08-2009, 04:41 AM
Nature is still in the stone-age. We can drive to Home Depot!

John T

AlgaeNator
12-29-2009, 11:38 PM
Wow long time coming, have some quick picks to post of a maturing screen and
harvested hair algae from my screens before I fed it to my fish... My Emperator and Blue Tang
really like the greens from the scrubber!

This is a pic of a large fist sized "Star" of Hair Algae that ripped off the screen earlier today. I get about 1 of these every few days... They swirl in my return section's baffles till I spot them, then I feed to the fish.

GreenStar

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/GrnHairStar122909.jpg

I am prototyping different screens in my SCrump right now, This is a Shot of the RIGHT side of my Victory Scrump, This Screen is 24"x12"
Standard SM roughed up plastic mesh with Acrylic backer and frame. The other side I tested during this same time, simple plain acrylic heavily scratched to see if the hair would attach.. NO go, so doing something else very interesting ontop of that same sheet, which I will report on shortly.
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/GrnScreen2122909.jpg

Closer shot you can see the screen Hair growth which is pretty good I think? Also you can see better where the Star ripped off the wall, and you can see the mesh clearly in a freshly scarred spot on the screen to the RT about 1/4 way down

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/AlgaeNator/GrnScreen122909.jpg

SantaMonica
12-30-2009, 10:22 AM
Algae falling off is an indicator of a too-smooth screen. In addition to making it cactus-rough, adding a second sheet of canvas helps. Also cleaning a bit more often helps. And if you still get pieces falling off, you can reduce flow a bit.

It's important to remember that the big pieces are just the ones you see; you don't see the individual hairs that let go.

AlgaeNator
12-30-2009, 11:30 AM
Hi SM!

I have double screen/canvass on that side sandwitched, and both sheets roughed to shreds.

Actually I dont mind the chunks coming off, its a "Circle of Life" kind of thing, heheh

Besides, the stuff grows back so quickly its amazing. Yea the area where it ripped does have good flow, but...
harvesting the tear offs, I figure is just recycling it for my fish, so I will let'er continue to rip.

Besides it's free Greens for my Veggie eaters! Both tang and emp. have HLLE Im watching to see if the algae
has any beneficial effects on that problem, ive tried just about EVERYTHING else. I dont think you can get much
better than fresh algae fed to them every few days?

Do need to add more light to the trough, at least one more CFL, and get my other screen side going as well.

I am hoping my new protype screen MOD idea will work on the other side... stay tuned

AlgaeNator
01-18-2010, 02:14 PM
Update:

For any of you interested in getting Starter ATS screens from me....I sent a 20" x 10"starter screen ( basically one half of my Victory Scrubber Scrump) and several loose " Hair Stars" over the KCress to test and attach to his Horizontal scrubber. We want To see if we can seed his system with My Starter Screens and how they ship. Shipping was fine, the Algae did well according to Cress... So, so far It appears my new prototype mesh material is going to work, which allows me to ship screen easily. The HA seems to cling to it and flourish on it after only 2 weeks in my system. If Cress can get his to grow out, and the material holds up, then I will consider the experiment to be a success. He also has VERY high Nitrates which have been documented BEFORE he installed my starter Screens. It will be interesting to see what growth he gets, and how it effects the Nitrates.

Im pretty confident he will have success on BOTH counts with my Victory Scrump Starter Screens.

If anyone is interested You can follow the progression of the ATS starter screen I sent here:

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98&start=120