Version 3 ATS : Vertical, LED, bigger

[rygh]

Well, time to try again. Hopefully the third time is the charm. Bought the acrylic and components, so starting this long weekend.
Any last minute advice would be great.
Thanks.

# FUTURE TARGET TANK:
200g main reef tank. Moderately loaded, but well fed.
75g sump, always dark, with some live rock.
Desire strong ATS filtering. No skimmer or other filter.
Testable on current 65g system

# BASIC CONCEPT:
Build a dual-scrubber system. Two identical modules.
Vertical type, double sided. Center screen with lighting on each side.
Each would be very much like a tall SM100. Same width, similar construction, but twice as high.
Screens = Two x 20" x 14" = 560, dual sided = 1120 sq in of surface total.
LED lighting. High efficiency LEDs, spectrum optimized, about 60W each = 120W. (Roughly equivalent to 300W T5)
Two 850 GPH (effective) pumps from tank up to scrubbers, gravity return to tank.

------ Gory details follow -----

# BACKGROUND:
Revision 1 was a small undersized test setup. It was one sided, and nearly, but not completely vertical.
That was largely to test the concept.
It worked, but being small, did not do that much.

Revision 1-B was an LED lighting swap.
I replaced the CFL with an LED setup.
Worked OK, about the same as CFL, Less power, same results.

Revision 2 was a large semi-horizontal build.
Going to an ATS setup for real.
The major driving factor in a horizontal build was space, and eliminating cost of extra pump.
Protein skimmer was turned off. Filter socks removed. Feedings increased.
First lighting setup was 1/2 CFL and 1/2 LED. Subsequently switched to all LED.
This worked fairly well. Happy corals. Nitrates and Phosphates at 0.
Some of the main tank algae is hurting, but not really dying off.

The problem is, a horizontal build just does not seem efficient enough to out-compete
the algae in the main tank. So I want to build a vertical.

Another new factor is that I have approval (from wife) of going to a 200g system. YIPPEE!
(From 65g)
So obviously, I have to build something a lot bigger.

# ATS TYPE:
Definitely plan a two sided dual vertical system.
Two identical independent systems.
. Separate screens, pumps, everything.
. Great for redundancy.
. Allows single smaller unit test on current tank.
. A bit more expensive, and more things to fail.
. Uses a smaller pump for each.
Two sided vertical.
With LED, the best energy point trade-off is a single screen with lighting on both sides.
The pump power is a large percentage, and LED lighting outputs only one direction.
Having tried a horizontal that just never was quite efficient enough, I plan to go vertical.

# ATS SCREEN SIZE:
Standard SM100 = 100x2 = 200 sq in surface area.
Very strong for 50g. Good for 100g
Basic = 1 inch/gallon. Good = 2X. Strong = 4X
Target a 200g tank + 75g sump = 275g
Best to have 300*4 = 1200 sq in
/2 sided, /2 unit = 300 sq in per
Ok to have less, 275 * 3 = perhaps 825 sq in
/2 sided, /2 unit = 206 sq in per

# ATS PUMP:
DUAL. Two required : Quiet One 4000
Most energy efficient at rates I need.
Assume 2.5' of head, so 850 gph
Total for 2 = 1700 GPH
Pumps to be located in bucket of fresh water with heat dissipation. Eliminates heat transfer to tank.
Gives a 6X filter turnover ratio.

# ATS SCREEN WIDTH:
Each one = 850 GPH
Target 35-40 GPH/inch
A good value = 20 inches wide = 42.5 GPH/in
Total for 2 = 40 inch wide

# ATS SCREEN HEIGHT:
1200 / 2 / 40 = 15
1000 / 2 / 40 = 12.5
No real reason to skimp on height, other than adding head to pump pressure.
Current target = 14"
This gives 14 * 20 * 2 * 2 = 1120 sq in of surface area.

# LIGHTING:
This will be LED based. N * (1X Blue + 2X Deep-Red + 1X warm-white) mixture.
Using modern LEDs, algae spectrum optimized. Seems to be about 4X more efficient than CFL, or 3X versus good T5.
A standard SM100 = 100W of T5 with quality individual bulb reflectors
So 4X that = 400W
Standard CFL target is 1 watt / gallon = 275W.
So preliminary target = 120W of LED power. Since a 30W set is fairly easy to build.
Easy to add more later.

# POWER USAGE:
Pumps = 2 x 50W = 100W, 24hrs/day = $224 per year
LED Lighting = 120W, 16 hrs $180 per year. (Standard CFL would be $600)

[inkidu]

You are making me want to build a new revision now.

Still waiting on my 680nm led tick tock tick tock

"This will be LED based. N * (1X Blue + 2X Deep-Red + 1X warm-white) mixture."

Specifics please. (type, power, driver etc...)

Good luck

[SantaMonica]

Standard SM100 = 100x2 = 200 sq in surface area.

SM100 = 100. That's why it's a 100.

[rygh]

Standard SM100 = 100x2 = 200 sq in surface area.

SM100 = 100. That's why it's a 100.

I was using true surface area (which has to include both sides/surfaces), not screen size.
Assuming it is 20" x 5" x 2 sides. That = 100 sq in screen size, so 200 sq in in surface area.
Or maybe I am really confused and it is much smaller than I thought.

[rygh]

"This will be LED based. N * (1X Blue + 2X Deep-Red + 1X warm-white) mixture."
Specifics please. (type, power, driver etc...)

I will build 4 "lights." One for each surface. (2 sides x 2 modules)
Each is a copy of what I am using right now.

Each "light" will be 30W, and include:
8 x Deep Red LedEngin. LZ1-00R205
- Running 700 mA (low power), 2.9Vf = 2W each
- About 100 lumens, but not very accurate for deep red.
- About 400mW radiant flux.
- Peak wavelength around 660 nm.
4 x Blue LedEngin. LZ1-00B205
- Running 700 mA (low power), 3.4Vf = 2.4W each
- About 50 lumens.
- Peak wavelength around 450 nm.
3 x Warm-White. (Still uncertain what brand. Probably Cree)
- Running 700 mA (low power), 3.6Vf = 2.5W each
- About 50 lumens.
- Peak wavelength around 450 nm.
Driver = LPC-35-700
- Capable of 35W.
- Drives 700mA, 9-48V

[inkidu]

Thanks for the info.

Maybe you are aware but I will mention it,

Cree is coming out with the XM-L soon. (couple months maybe less???)

160 lumens per watt @350 mA

Whether a warm white will be immediately available is another thing.

Hope this helps.

[SantaMonica]

Scrubber "size" is based on having light on both side of the screen. So 100 needs to be 100, with lights on both sides, which is meant for a 100 gal tank, and with 100 watts fluorescent light for high filtering.

[rygh]

Scrubber "size" is based on having light on both side of the screen. So 100 needs to be 100, with lights on both sides, which is meant for a 100 gal tank, and with 100 watts fluorescent light for high filtering.

Hey, it is your product, so you can name it any way you want.

I guess I am basically building an RY-500-L. :P
Perhaps overkill for a 275g system. Oh well, gives me room to expand.

The reason I am annoyingly pedantic about using the more strict scientific definition of "surface area" is because I did two
single sided revisions. As such, I had to be careful not to be confused myself, and end up with a half-size scrubber.

[rygh]

Maybe you are aware but I will mention it, Cree is coming out with the XM-L soon. (couple months maybe less???)
160 lumens per watt @350 mA Whether a warm white will be immediately available is another thing.
Wow, had not heard that.
Those will definitely be going in my main tank.
(Lighting for a 200g tank is going to be an interesting and expensive project)
But for the scrubber, the warm-whites are a very small part (20%), and only to cover whatever spectrum the main reds miss,
so really just going for reasonably-cheap instead.

[inkidu]

EDIT

The led I mentioned.

http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail. ... 1079100891 (http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1271079100891)

Coming this fall.

Hope this helps

[rygh]

It will be interesting to see the cost difference between bins, and luminance at a more realistic 750mA.
The XP-G-R5 is 139 lm at 350mA, which is not far off 160. (15%)
While the extra efficiency will eventually pay for the up front costs, it may take quite a few years.

[rygh]

Here is the "build instructions" for the boxes I am making. I am just about done, then I will add pics.
I am including this for 2 reasons:
1) To emphasize that with a little planning, you can get almost zero wasted acrylic.
2) To show that you can use much thinner acrylic. Cheaper, lighter, better light transmission.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Plan:
This will make two 22" x 16" x 6" boxes.
Almost zero waste of acrylic pieces.
Uses 1/16" for front/back. Cheaper, lighter, passes light better.
But requires precise widths on end/bottom, and care in how the joints come together.
The rest is 3/16, but can be 1/4. Really driven by what Lowes stocked.
You can glue the edge of a 3/16" sheet, but the 1/8" edge is too small to bond.

# Purchase:
Available at Lowes:
Acrylic: 1/16" thick, 32" x 44"
Acrylic: 3/16" thick, 24" x 48"
At the end, used all but about 1/2 sq ft, small pieces.

# Front/Back: Two roughly 16 x 22
Use 1/16" acrylic.
4 * 15-7/8" x 21-7/8"
Simply cut the big 32" x 44" sheet into 4 identical pieces.
Roughly 16x22 each - saw blade
Will be routed down later. Just make sure 1 edge of each is perfect.

# Ends: Four roughly 6 x 16
Use 1/4" acrylic.
4 * 5-7/8" x 15-3/4".
These are full height. Bottom actually goes inside ends.
Cut 24" x 15-3/4" from end of sheet, then cut that into 4 * 5-7/8" wide pieces.
Slot for pipe on top will be cut later.

# Bottom: Two roughly 6 x 22
Use 1/4" acrylic.
2 * 5-7/8" x 21-1/4"
Subtracted 1/4 from each side for thickness of ends. 21-7/8 - 1/4 - 1/4.
Cut 5-7/8 off twice, then cut off ends to length

# Top stiffener: Four roughly 1 x 24
Use 1/4" acrylic.
4 * 1" x 24"
Cut 1" x 24" off four times)

# Top Plate: Two roughly 7 x 24
Use 1/4" acrylic.
2 * 7" x 24"
You should have about 14" left. Just cut that in half.
A little more if you have a thin kerf blade.

# Legs / Base:
Use redwood 2x6 (1-1/2 x 5-1/2).
4 * 12" x (2x6)

# Cut notches for pipe.
Target is top of pipe to be 3/8" below top of ends.
Option 1: Cut pipe opening with drill hole cutter.
Option 2: Clamp coupler to acrylic, cut small hole, route with flush cut to coupler
Then cut straight up from hole with saber saw or router/fence.
Do to all four end pieces, identical.

# Clean edges
You need 1 good edge on front/back.
You need 1 good edge on ends.
You need 3 good edges on bottom. (1 long, 2 short)
Planer, sandpaper, scraper.

# Gluing main box - step 1
Set front on flat surface.
Glue one end on. Make sure it is exact height on top perfect edge of front.
. Bottom will overhang. Leave 1/64 overhang on sides.
Glue bottom on, to front + side. Make sure it is level.
. Will be excess front below bottom.
Glue other end on, to front + bottom. Make sure it is exact height on top perfect edge
. and parallel with other side. There will be excess on front.
Stop and let dry.

# Cut excess.
Take a router flush cut bit, and cut off excess on front acrylic and
any on ends where they meet bottom.

# True up.
The bottom and ends must be EXACTLY the same width to glue the back on.
To do this, easiest to run it through a router table.
Front acrylic against fence. Flip it 3 times.

#Glue on back.
Making sure top lines up exactly.
Route off excess front/back. Same as above.

# Glue stiffeners
Glue stiffeners along top of box.
Also made a few smaller stiffeners.

[rygh]

Getting there.
The two boxes of acrylic are glued up.
Finishing one off first. It is almost done.
Still need a base, insulation, lights, pump, rougher screen, and tuning the slot.
But almost there.

One thing I realized though: With the thin wall acrylic, it may not handle being full of water. But not meant to
ever fill beyond 3/4 inch, and if it does, I have big problems anyway.

[rygh]

Here it is finally running.
Too many distractions. Took a while.
Still hooked up with temporary CFL lighting though. Need to order LEDs.

[rygh]

Quick update:
I ran it for a couple of days, and green started to appear.
I shut if off, since it was only a quick test.

I really need to work on something to shade the slot. It sure plugged up fast.
My plan is to cut a 1.25" PVC pipe in half, and build some mounting brackets for it, so
each half drops in as a shade on each side.

I need more overflow holes on top. It actually started to produce a bit of a water jet when the slot filled,
pushing the lid up enough to leak. Probably need to increase the slot a bit as well.

I also need to work on the out-flow. Way too many bubbles, and super noisy.
Right now, there are two 1.25" holes, that feed into a single 1.25" pipe.
I prefer not to go with a huge pipe, so I plan to add a 1" pipe, in "full siphon" that should
take most of the water. The little left should be fine in the original pipe.

[rygh]

The slot:
From another thread: The slot ended up being surprisingly tricky to get right.
I went through a couple of pieces of pipe, trying different things.
The slot is 21 inches long, and runs about 800 GPH.
I ended up cutting a 1/8" slot, and then drilling small 3/16" holes every 1/2".
The holes fixed two things: They added flow, since 1/8" was too small, and they roughen up
the slot, reducing the horizontal velocity, making a more even flow.

For the test setup, the slot is still not big enough, but I am waiting.
But for the real system, the ATS will be a bit higher, so I will lose some pressure.
Easy to make the slot bigger. Not so easy to make it smaller.

[rygh]

Screen Clips:
Not originally my idea, but worth writing up more carefully, since they work great.
I have a 1.25" pipe for the slot.
I cut small 1/4" long pieces from a 1.5" pipe, ending up with small rings.
I then took a 1" chunk out of the ring. So ended up with a ring, with a gap.
I then cut small rectangular 3/8" holes near the top of the screen for the clips.
The rings clip over the pipe fairly easily.
What you do is rotate the rings around the pipe, into the holes, to hook/unhook the screen.
Super easy.

[rygh]

A bit of a change on the lighting:
I decided to save some money, and instead of going with the fancy deep-red LEDs, just buy some
cheaper warm white + reds from ebay.

I also plan on putting all the LED lighting details in a different thread.
HERE:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=728 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=728)

[DWIZUM]

Watching this with great anticipation, as I am planning a very similar build on a slightly larger tank. I'm glad you've done all the hard work of figuring out which LEDs are effective. :)

[rygh]

Thanks.
It is basically done, but sitting on the shelf gathering a bit of dust.
A big tank is a LOT of work to set up. There are so many other things to do.
Plus, between work and kid stuff, not that much hobby time.
But I anticipate getting tap-water testing going in about 2 weeks, so might have something more to show.
Target for fish was Thanksgiving, but looking questionable.

[sklywag]

Boy! That's what I call slow and steady. Is that Thanksgiving of this year?

[rygh]

Boy! That's what I call slow and steady. Is that Thanksgiving of this year?
GRRR :lol:
Yes. Well, hopefully this year...

Here is a picture of my fish "room" in the garage.
Upper shelves are the ATS boxes. One complete on left, one partly done, and one be usurped by storage for ventilation parts.
Lower big box is my 125 gallon sump/refugium/crypto section.

[attachment=0:1fjl7qkn]fishroom.jpg[/attachment:1fjl7qkn]

[rygh]

A new picture of the filtration for the new tank.
Shows dual scrubbers set up and running in test mode.
Just tap water.
Estimate is a month or so, and I may have water in the new tank, so maybe some green by Xmas.
Changes the plumbing a bit:
Loop 1: Tank -> Pump -> up to top ATS -> gravity fed back to tank.
Loop 2: Sump -> Pump -> to lower ATS -> straight back to sump.
The second loop has a lot more flow, but technically only filters the sump.

[rygh]

Slowly but surely getting this done....
(Very slowly)
But some real things to show.

First, a picture of the ATS glowing away. Shows the cool purple from the LEDs.
[attachment=2:62t1nwp4]ats_led.jpg[/attachment:62t1nwp4]

Second, a picture of some growth finally. It has been running for a few weeks, and starting to work.
The tank is almost empty of life, and it is a big screen, so I do not expect a lot at this point.
But still good to see some real green. I think it is already better than my old horizontal one.
[attachment=1:62t1nwp4]algae4.jpg[/attachment:62t1nwp4]

Third, a quick pic to show how it tilts out for screen cleaning.
It tilts over, and you rotate the small plastic pipe pieces that act as screen holders.
Pretty easy, except that I have to get on a ladder to do it.
[attachment=0:62t1nwp4]ats_tilt.jpg[/attachment:62t1nwp4]

[SantaMonica]

Good to see progress. How about pics of the led...

[rygh]

Outside plate. Shows main heat sink for center deep red / blue / deep red.
And a few scattered regular heat sinks.
I used the LEDs from my old system, plus new ones, hence the slightly odd build.
[attachment=2:3qw63rnz]ats2_led2.jpg[/attachment:3qw63rnz]

This shows the LEDs on. Note the dispersion due to grating. A few bright points, but otherwise pretty even.
Totals : 2 x deep red, 1 x blue, 4 x standard red, 6 x warm white.
It is a bit less optimal than I would like, but really good enough.
[attachment=1:3qw63rnz]ats2_led3.jpg[/attachment:3qw63rnz]

This shows the LEDs themselves.
Note the hole, and the attached heat sink from my old setup.
[attachment=0:3qw63rnz]ats2_led4.jpg[/attachment:3qw63rnz]

Possible future changes:
I have 4 of those big center red/blue/red heat sinks. I think I will change it so
that I have two sets of those per side, instead of one.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Killer man! I'm thinking that when I set up my 120, I'm going to do a single-sided top-of-tank scrubber, and since I have the time I think I'm going to make something similar to yours. Doing DIY LED DT lighting, so why not. I thought you were going to use 2 deep red : 1 WW : 1 blue, your ratio seems to be completely different, with tons of red. Is that because the WW's hit the blue spectrum enough that you don't need so much additional blue?

[rygh]

Killer man! I'm thinking that when I set up my 120, I'm going to do a single-sided top-of-tank scrubber, and since I have the time I think I'm going to make something similar to yours. Doing DIY LED DT lighting, so why not. I thought you were going to use 2 deep red : 1 WW : 1 blue, your ratio seems to be completely different, with tons of red. Is that because the WW's hit the blue spectrum enough that you don't need so much additional blue?

Honestly - the ratio was dictated by what I had lying around, complicated by needed to run both old and new
scrubber at the same time during transition. I still might switch to more of my "ideal" ratio.
But yes, the WW have quite a bit of blue, so I think that is pretty well covered.
So it is really not all that different if you break down the spectrum components.

To clarify: The reason to use red+blue instead of warm white is to further optimize power usage, not
because it will grow algae particularly better. Basically, using more warm whites wastes a fair bit
of power in the areas that are not critical to algae. But it does not specifically hurt growth.

To be specific:
I still think the "ideal" ratio is N * (2 deep red + 1 warm white + 1 blue)
But I think "good enough" is N * (1 Warm white + 1 Red)

There are really 3 mistakes I have seen on LED systems:
1) Being way off on intensity. Both too high and too low.
You need to use the new 3W LEDs, and be up around 1/3 to 1/2 the recommended T5 wattage.
2) Not enough red in general.
While WW are good, they are weak in the upper red, and are not good enough just by themselves.
But that does not mean you have to super-optimize the spectrum.
3) Spot lighting
It is important to diffuse the light, bounce it around, and mix it.
Bare LEDs have a rather poor lambertain pattern, which can result in a huge range of intensity,
leaving some patches with not enough light, and others with way too much.

-------

Separate non-led note:
I am not sure what "single-sided top-of-tank scrubber" really means, but I personally will never build
anything but a 2 sided waterfall type ever again.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh, I couldn't see the light on the backside. All the pics I've seen of your have looked like the box was single-sided.

As far as what I mean, I mean that my scrubber box will sit on top of the tank, and there will be no sump. The reason I was going to go single-sided is because it avoids conflicting with DT lighting. I can position a 24" wide scrubber on one edge of the tank (2'x2'x4') and put the light fixture on the outside, so that only a few inches are taken up by the scrubber over the top footprint of the tank. The screen would have to be 2x size but that's still only 20x12 (or taller) and that's a pretty good dimension for diffusing LED light across, at least it seems to be. Nothing is set in stone, of course. I could do a double-sided 12x12, and just aim the DT LEDs a little differently. It's just that I have a nice undrilled tank, which I was going to drill for a BeanAnimal 3-pipe system...

Thanks for clarifying the ratios. I guess the real test would be to build one of each and run on parallel systems and see which one does a better job.

[rygh]

Yes, the backside is a bit hard to see. You can sortof tell from the picture of it tilted out.

Proper scientific experimentation is a pain, yes. It was not too bad on my old horizontal,
because it was long, and in segments, and I could replace each segment, or
put duct tape over things, and sortof get test results.

So your scrubber is actually inside the DT? Intriguing.
I can see how that would have to be 1 sided.
Well, I have absolutely no idea if that will work well or not.
I take it that this is for a different tank from your 120-reef thread.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, the 120 reef is a tank that I maintain, the 120 I am referring to is empty, sitting in my study at home, on end, still wrapped in cardboard, surrounded by dog kennels. I take my EE PE Exam on Friday, and 10-12 weeks later when I get the results, and if I pass, then I can start on that project. Otherwise, it has to wait until next year (after I take the test again and wait again).

The scrubber wouldn't be in the tank, it would sit on top of it, and drain directly into the tank. The reason for one-sided would be to allow for more room for the main DT lighting. It could still be double-sided, just would have to sacrifice a little space for DT lighting.

So, did you just chain all the LED straight together, all on one power supply (the one you listed on page 1)? So those 5W special deep reds and blues, are they fed off a different source than the cheap reds and WWs? Any special driver board? These may sound like noob ?'s because they are and I am.

It looks like you went with one additional WW (24 total instead of 20) was that because the layout worked better, you just could (because there was enough Vf available) or any other reason?

I'm trying to nail down what I will need for a 120, either single sided or dual sided, it would have the same amount of light, just positioned differently...

[rygh]

Cool, another EE.
Hey - shouldn't you be studying instead of web surfing?

Each side has a power supply. So 2 x Meanwell LPC-35-750
They can drive 750mA, up to 48V.
So 13 LEDs in series at roughly 3.5V is fine. The Reds are actually lower, so I am well under spec.
Thus I am under-driving the 5W. Waste of money perhaps, but otherwise no issues.


I am confused by your 20/24 comment.
I only have 12 warm whites total. 6 per side.
Each side = 2 x deep red, 1 x blue, 4 x standard red, 6 x warm white
Why exactly 13 - no real reason - just luck I guess. :-)


---

Depending on your DT lights, you might actually have room for dual sides.
I would with my fixture.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/H1nso8Ys28Rdfn56VGlxWLnGvZ5g75Y5vMj7izQyufM?feat=d irectlink
This is one half of it, for a 240 gallon tank. Note the gap in the middle.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Studying is for wussies. I've been studying for months. Now I'm just doing practice tests. Bo-ring.

Your thread on the light viewtopic.php?f=3&t=728 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=728) said 20 WWs (that was total, so 5 per fixture x 4 fixtures) I just noticed that you mad it with 6 WWs, but the symmetry I'm guessing had something to do with that.

So since this is for a 200g tank w/75 sump so 275 system, logic would follow that one box (double sided) would be high-filtering for a 100g system, adequate filtering for a 120, or even a 135 for that matter.

Or does it still need to be put through the "Santa Monica Wringer" test, where you feed like nuts, don't clean the screen for 2 weeks, etc - all the dumb stuff real people would do?

So you got that much growth on one box of the 2 box system, in a tank that has a bare minimum of life? How long has it been running for? I guess the true test is to load up the bio in the tank and see if it can handle it.

[rygh]

Ahh, yes, that thread.
At some point I forget I had started a different thread, and started another. Oops.
I guess I need to update that someday.

Not really sure why I added another WW.
I think it just happened as I was drawing out the layout. Never really planned it.
Probably due to symmetry as you guessed.

I think the final tank total was 220 gallons.
My sump is empty of life, so irrelevant for scrubber calculations.

The big change - I plan to run a protein skimmer long term.
Sorry, sacrilege.
I tried running without one on my previous reef tank for about 6 months.
No issues with the normal measurable water parameters at all. Zero Nitrates/phosphates, as normal.
But I suffered from endless detritus buildup, and without tedious cleaning,
as it built up some corals would get unhappy. Plus looked ugly.
It is possible that with the perfect water flow and enough detrivores, might be solvable,
but decided it was easier to have a skimmer, and simply feed more.

But with a skimmer, I need less scrubbing. Hence dropping down to one box. FOR NOW.
I just installed the skimmer a few days ago, so that growth was without a skimmer.
I have most of the parts for a second ATS, so we shall see what happens.
I feed fairly carefully.

Tank has been up and running (skimmerless until now) for about 4 months.
ATS has been running for about 4 weeks.
That growth was about 9 days. (yeah, oops)
But it was a pretty thin covering. Not even close to max. Hard to tell from pictures.

I have several fish in QT now. Once I add those, I will probably be about 1/4 total planned bioload.
It will be interesting.

[rygh]

A very interesting "oops" I just noticed. : I have only been running the LEDs for 8 hours / day.
:oops:

Really.
I set it up like that for a quick test, and with so many other things to do, promptly forgot to increase it.
I will bump it to 12 and see what happens, then longer.
A fun problem to have.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Got an update for us, screen growth, effect of longer light period, etc?

[rygh]

Lighting change made essentially zero difference.
Perhaps growing a bit clumpier than it was before.

My theory - there is simply not much for the scrubber to do yet.
Big scrubber, big tank, big skimmer, very few fish and corals, and no accumulated nitrates.
So the limiting factor on growth is nutrients.

Nitrates and phosphates are zero, and I am not getting hair algae growth in main tank.

I will try to remember to take some pics this weekend when I clean it.

[rygh]

Well, zero difference on lighting change might have been premature.
Scrubber is cranking up a bit more now. It also appears the algae type is getting a bit thicker and stringier.
So maybe just took some more time.
It is also thicker in the center, where I have my good blue/deep red LEDs.
So I may not be so done with light tweaking after all.

Latest pics enclosed. Also is a picture of the skimmer for fun. Whatever method, I am pulling out lots of gunk.

[attachment=2:6yze0pjg]algae5.jpg[/attachment:6yze0pjg]

[attachment=1:6yze0pjg]algae6.jpg[/attachment:6yze0pjg]

[attachment=0:6yze0pjg]skimmer1.jpg[/attachment:6yze0pjg]

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is very interesting. It looks like your 'ideal' combination might be the one to go with after all.

I am looking at putting one together, and I thought that it might be a good idea to bunch the LEDs together such that you had a group of 1 WW :: 1 Blue :: 2 Deep Reds for given area of screen, say a 'quadrant' of a 12x12 screen, with another group in the very center. So a 12x12 screen would have 5 groups for a total of 5 WWs, 5 Blues, and 10 Deep Reds on each side. What are your thoughts on that? Any problems with light distribution?

[rygh]

That clustering makes sense to me.
It is something I did on my display tank, to eliminate banding. So should help.
The only possible tricky part is the thermals. You need a thick heat sink to make sure
it distributes the heat away from a point source like that.

Although it is just algae, so if it turns out to be a hassle, might not be worth doing.

Oddly, light distribution will probably be better, not worse, because of clustering.
The reason being that you can distribute all spectrums equally.
It allows you to really analyze the pattern, and get the overlaps right.

Key to distribution : Do not put LEDs too close. And consider diffusion grating.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I assume you mean not putting the LEDs too close to the screen, and then distance from each other would be limited by physical heat distribution. I was thinking that mounting them in a tight square/diamond with individual heat sinks like the ones you have on the back of the sheet would be good, but somehow making them physically separate from each other versus mounting to the sheet and having the sinks on the back of the sheet.

Then, I thought that maybe finding a pattern for the DR LEDs that spreads them out more and making a B/WW cluster would work too. Also, I wonder if using a diamond diffuser with a smaller pattern would work better, the one you use seems like it may just not diffuse the light enough? Do they make finer diamond diffusers? I'll have to search a bit...

[rygh]

Yes, I meant LEDs not too close to the screen.
Of course, that mean light does drop off a bit in intensity.

Unless you have a fan, I think you will have thermal issues.
It is difficult to have a heat sink that can handle the thermals from an LED that
still fits in little more than the footprint of the LED.
For example:
If you have 4 LEDs, clustered into a 2"x2" square, with a thin sheet, that really
means that your heat sink will not be effective beyond about 2.5" x 2.5".
And a 2.5x2.5 heat sink is pretty marginal for 4 LEDs unless you have a fan.
*That big gold heat sink on mine is 2"x4"x2", fins spread out, and only handles 3.

On the other hand, with a thick mounting plate, heat can spread out a lot,
so even if you cluster, the heat sink can be much larger, and includes the plate itself.

--

For diffusion plate, I just bought what they had at Home Depot. It was the only size there.
Note that you can use two layers. One side is flat, one side is diamonds.
Easy to glue the flat sides together.

--

I have been toying a bit with using the water to cool the LEDs as well.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I had looked up some heat sinks to use for my DT build, they were like the ones that TeraHz used on his build on RC, basically old CPU heat sinks, a little larger

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... ?t=1880113 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1880113)

Post #8

These should be fine I would think and you could put them right next to each other or maybe 1/16" apart for thermal separation. Good for clusters. No active cooling needed.

[rygh]

I took a quick look. He is claiming 55C, and the way he did his fixture, those are really wide open
to air flow, plus there are some extra aluminum pieces.

So yes, probably fine, but depends on your fixture and how enclosed they are.

Also, depends on your target. They will definitely not fail.
But longevity is a function of the square of the temperature,
so I consider 55C a bit on the high side.

[Floyd R Turbo]

But the L70 date is based on the chips running at rated temperature, which is way higher than 55C, more like 150C, but then you get just over 70% lumens vs 25C. And I'm not clear on where exactly that temp is measured either. But as far as useful life goes, by the time the useful life is getting close at high temp, let's say 5 years, we will all be running LEDs with 2x the efficiency anyways, and these will be in the trash.

[rygh]

Six month update
Well, its been running for about 6 months now, so figured I should give a quick update:

So far - pretty good. Overall, I am happy.

It has been cranking away, solidly producing algae.
Nitrates and phosphates are not measurable, and never have been since I turned it on.
But I do have a bit of nuisance algae in the main tank, so I guess it is not perfect yet.

I did have an interesting pH problem, caused a bit by the scrubber.
When the scrubber went on, it quickly sucked the CO2 out of the system, causing a rapid temporary
rise in pH. This combined with a bit of over-dosing on the Soda Ash caused some real issues.
But improving ventilation, offsetting display/ats lights better, and switching to Baking Soda fixed that.

I do have some plans for improvement, probably in the winter when I have more time.
1) Larger drains.
I had to throttle the pump back a little because it would overflow.
2) An improved bubble reduction system.
I have a few Tee's, bends, and things, but I am still getting a few bubbles in DT.

Plus, if I get really bored, I want to try a few things:
1) Adding lots of bubbles to the water in.
So it is a bit frothy over the screen.
My experience with the pH drop gives me an indication that the CO2 levels do drop, and in my case,
might even be reducing growth a bit. Could be a fun test, or more likely a complete waste of time.
2) Tweak the LEDs more.
Of course. :geek:

[SantaMonica]

With my two scrubbers, when the lime water top-off runs too much (I do it manually) the pH has gotten as high as 9.0. But I guess it would do that with the lime water by itself. A quick dose of baking soda brings it right back down.

[Floyd R Turbo]

What size drains are you using right now, and did you risk overflow because algae clogged the drain?

As for a bubble remover, here's my idea that works better than any other so far

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1396 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1396)

[rygh]

What size drains are you using right now, and did you risk overflow because algae clogged the drain?

As for a bubble remover, here's my idea that works better than any other so far

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1396 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1396)

I have two 1.25" holes that go to a single 1.25" pipe, plus an extra 1" drain. (For about 900 GPH)
Clogging is not really an issue, since the holes that clog are way bigger than the pipe, plus
my slot seems to clog faster than the holes.
I think my big problem is really too many bends and twists in the pipes, plus the pipes are probably 15 feet long, but only 1 foot drop vertically.
(scrubber is in garage)

Interesting idea on the bubble reduction. I need to think about that.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hey Rygh, do you have any current growth / harvest pics?

[rygh]

Not really.
There is no change from the pics on page 4 of the thread.
No new fish either, just a few coral frags, so not really surprised.

[rygh]

Well, it has been over two years since I started this thread.

I am now happy to say - Scrubbers are boring.
They simply work. Yawn.

It is interesting about all the new goings-on on the forums though. Been a while since I have visited.
Bubbly-upflow scrubbers. Hmm ... maybe.
Floyd R Turbo selling LED systems. Wow.

One interesting update though:
A friend was pestering me with questions about Phosphates and scrubbers.
So I ended up buying one of the electronic Hanna ultra-low-range phosphorous meters.
I seem to average aroung 5-12 PPB (yes, per billion)
But it is phosphorous, so to convert to standard PO4, = 3.066/1000
So I have phosphate readings around 0.015 to 0.037
Nice! No need for GFO.

[SantaMonica]

Yep who has time for getting black coffee grounds all over the place :)

[Garf]

Rygh - I notice a while back you said if you were bored enough that you would try putting bubbles on your screen to improve co2 availability, did you get round to it?

[rygh]

Rygh - I notice a while back you said if you were bored enough that you would try putting bubbles on your screen to improve co2 availability, did you get round to it?

Decided not to bother.
Growth is really not an issue. With nitrates + phosphates at zero, and no algae, not sure what it would help.
It is pretty over-sized.
Pretty sure it is nutrient limited. Growth changes more with feeding.

At this point, the only things to solve would be to make cleaning slightly easier, and to reduce the power.
For power, I need to get it into the drain line, instead of a separate pump.
For cleaning, I need to make it a bit easier to access.
But neither are major. Someday....

[rygh]

Well, a bit of a setback a couple of weeks ago.
My pump died and I did not notice.
So the screen really dried out. Probably only 2 days, so not all dead, but mostly.
Cleaned it off pretty well.
It is starting to grow back pretty quick. I am happy about that.
But it is shedding a lot of old brown dead algae as well.

I added some extra carbon. Did some extra water changes.
So far, no issues.
I always run a skimmer, have a lot of live rock, and do not feed a ton, so I did not expect
a huge problem.
Pump just had some calcium deposits. A bit of vinegar, and it is as good as new.

No bid deal overall. Just an annoyance.
In a way, it is rather nice to know that failure is no big deal.

[SantaMonica]

It probably will be grown again in a week.

[kaskiles]

Decided not to bother.
...For power, I need to get it into the drain line, instead of a separate pump.
...Someday....

So if you had fed this ATS from your drain instead of a dedicated pump, the pump build-up failure would not have happened? Assuming that a drain fed system would be as controllable?

[sklywag]

The only way to go I think. New.
http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab308/ddinox64/th_10-14-2012086.jpg (http://s874.photobucket.com/albums/ab308/ddinox64/?action=view&current=10-14-2012086.jpg)
Old or current.
http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab308/ddinox64/th_5-29-2012024.jpg (http://s874.photobucket.com/albums/ab308/ddinox64/?action=view&current=5-29-2012024.jpg)

[rygh]

I am still having phosphate issues after the pump-failure-death I had. (mentioned above)
The screen is growing strong, but phosphates just will not go down.
They are not horrible. (around 25 ppb phosphorous = 0.075 ppm PO4)
But bad enough that I am having real Cyano issues, and some coral does not appear happy.

My guess is that the ATS is totally nitrate limited right now.
I am not getting any green nuisance algae. Just Cyano.


I tried a cup of GFO in a filter sock. Helped a bit, but I have a big tank. It will take a real reactor to
do it that way.

I tried adding potassium, since that was low. No obvious difference.


I guess I could add some high nitrate, low phosphate fertilizer. Weird, but might help.
Probably just stick with more GFO until it stabilizes.

---

I am thinking about a GEN-4 scrubber!!
As others mentioned, having it on the return is the way to go. Saves power as well.
Plus, probably make it a bit smaller, and easier to clean.
But it is a busy winter, so not sure when that will start.

[SantaMonica]

You don't need to add anything. You probably just have dead scrubber growth landing in the display; this will fuel the cyano.

[rygh]

Hope so.

I might replace one of the screens.
I have been thinking of doing that anyway, since it broke a bit on the top at the attachment point.