Where are good sps tank?

[iggy]

Where are the sps keepers?

I've yet to see in even photos ATS as primary filtration for a sps tank.

[SantaMonica]

Hardly anyone posts pics of their tanks here. This site is just for filtering. By the time you've put in the years to realize that skimmer's don't remove nutrients, etc, you already have seen a hundres sps tanks, so you don't need to see more of them on a filter site. If your tests come out good, and you have food in your water, your sps will grow. That's not the hard part.

The hard part is non-photo corals. These corals can't have the food removed from the water, at all. And the food must go into the water continuously. And as strong as scrubbers are at removing nutrients, even a standard-sized scrubber has a hard time keeping the nutrients down on a highly fed non-photo tank.

Most non-photo corals can last 3 months before withering away. So your quest for pics should be of non-photo tanks that have had the corals in-place and growing for 6 months or more. Tanks that can do this are replicating the natural reefs better than any other.

[iggy]

Advanced aquarists would know that skimmers remove particulate and dissolved organics and that denitrification process limits nitrates already. I do very much agree that increased feedings is much better than some advice such as adding KNO3 in Zeovit systems.

I am not discouraged by this just not viewing this technique as cutting edge either and wonder where photos might be. One caution with this is that sps can have a negative response to improving conditions if too rapid.

I have seem some vague evidence on the Marine Depot forum by Eric Borneman suggesting this methodology is over looked often. He can be a bit over bearing to deal with as any type of mentor is this hobby.

[SantaMonica]

Cutting edge depends on your reference. It's really just the same ole' way the ocean has been operating for millions of years. So in that regard it's really no edge at all. But if the reference is how much food, vitamins, amino acids and bacteria you can keep in the water for the corals, and do so with no detectible nutrients, with almost no maintenance (multiple weeks with acrylic scrubbers), for no cost for the equipment, then it has the most edge.

[iggy]

Ocean also has dilution as major factor to control nutrients in locations with high biomass and bacterial activity.

Trend I am seeing in tank is definite vanishing diatoms, and perhaps slight green film on glass, and perhaps slightly less coraline algae. It is too early to tell. Slight bubble and hair algae in overflow seem to slowly fade and feeding has increased.

All corals look fine, except Orange Maldive Pavona that may be a bit pale. Areas do have active sweeper tantacles so I will continue feeding.

[SantaMonica]

Actually most of the water on a reef, stay on the reef. A reef recycles the nutrients, and thus does it's own filtering, via the benthic sea-floor algae. There is no real "water change" like people think:

Functional aspects of nutrient cycling on coral reefs. The Ecology of Deep and Shallow Coral Reefs, Symposia Series for Undersea Research, 1983
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/general/lib/CR ... iver22.pdf (http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/general/lib/CREWS/SaltRiver/salt_river22.pdf)

It generally is believed that the main evolutionary adaptation to low nutrient conditions in reef environments has been the evolution of relationships that lead to efficient recycling of nutrients. The foremost example of this type of relationship is the [relationship] between algae and invertebrates.

In order for the reef as a whole to be efficient in recycling nutrients, there must be mechanisms for recycling nutrients among these free-living plants and animals. The main problem [in proving that recycling occurs] arises when one considers that the same high water flow over the reef that assures a large source of low-nutrient oceanic water also assures that any nutrients excreted into the water by animals will be rapidly diluted and carried away [because this would dis-prove recycling]. Therefore, what is needed [to prove recycling] is a mechanism to prevent dilution and loss [into the open ocean]. I would like to bring attention here to a little studied mechanism, that of particle entrapment and nutrient regeneration within the reef framework.

Coral reefs are riddled with holes and tunnels of all sizes. From 50 to 75% of the reef volume can be made up of these voids. These holes contain varying amounts of sediment which comes from a variety of sources, including carbonate sediments generated by degradation of the reef structure by borers, fecal material from fishes and invertebrates that use these holes as shelters or encrust the walls of the holes, and nonreef material (including terrestrial and pelagic) that is trapped inside the reef as seawater percolates through the porous structure. Organic materials [food] in these sediments are metabolized by microorganisms, and in the process, nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] are regenerated. Elevated concentrations of nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] have been measured in waters from these reef cavities.

Reef water is 3 to 4 times higher in NO3 [nitrate] and slightly higher in NH4 [ammonia] and organic N [food] concentrations than oceanic waters. The most dramatic difference in nutrient concentration, however, can be seen between the offshore water and the cave water. Cave water concentrations are 13 times higher in NO3, 2 times higher in NH4, and 3 times higher in organic Nitrogen than offshore waters. These enrichments in the caves represent a significant increase in nutrients [nitrate and phosphate] for any primary producers [algae] that might have access to them [the algae would eat the nutrients].

New nutrients enter the system in both dissolved and particulate form, or are generated [in-place] by N2 fixation. Dissolved nutrients, and some particulates, are taken up by the organisms [but mostly by] algae and zooxanthellae. Other particulates are trapped by the reef framework, and by filter-feeding organisms. Planktivorous fish [who eat floating particles] have been shown to excrete and defecate significant amounts of NH4 and organic material in their nocturnal shelters. Herbivores graze on the algae and corals, and then the carnivores, in turn, feed on the herbivores. The fecal material from both of these groups, many of which spend about one-half of their time sheltering in reef crevices, are deposited either into reef crevices or released just above the reef surface where it rains on to what can be viewed as a benthic wall-to-wall carpet of mouths. [Thus the recycling process is complete, without being diluted by the open ocean. By the way, the open ocean, below 300 feet deep, is very high in nutrients; so if the open ocean did "water change" into the reef, it would add nutrients to the reef, not dilute them.]

[iggy]

Thanks for putting together this information. I like the terminology about recycling seen on typical reef systems, but view varying degrees of the influences mentioned dependent on location, biodiversity, and currents etc. I would be a bit careful of promoting a methodology as more than a tool to apply, even if often overlooked as this method is.

In terms of recycling, much is exported by ATS, and not recycled in a closed system. Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity. It may be possible that some DOC components are not food in a closed loop system as well. I am unclear about this.

What I very much like to about this system is the ability to tie up and then export ammonia.

I have been very carefully observing corals since switching over to ATS. My pictures are in another link if interested. What I have seen is that they appear healthy with a bit more polyp extension. First change was all diatoms disappeared and this was clear in tank with large clam that stirs sand frequently. Then diatom growth on filter slowed. Hair algae that is a bit pale appeared first and when washed away is grew back a darker brown/green. I do have iron to feed algae but not doing it until system has more time. Actually I only use CaCl2, NaHCO3, and MgSO4/MgCl2.

I have many corals I can not identify fully as they are wild collected from Vietnam and Australia by local shop. I have increased feeding several fold, and see no signs of stress. Red turf algae has always been present (not cyano) and that seems to be fading a bit as well with the help of 3 turbo snails in a 140 gallon tank.

I feed H20? Coral food, mysis, cyclops, rotifes, pollock/algae mix and oyster feeds almost 20CC/wk .

Only down side is my Maldives orange pavona is a bit dull. I moved to other side of tank away from anything with sweeper tantacles and hope it imporoves. It has great actinic colors.

[SantaMonica]

In terms of recycling, much is exported by ATS, and not recycled in a closed system.

Almost true. Just think about what you feed your tank... nori, probably. You are putting algae in, and taking algae out. In the bigger picture, no matter what you feed, you are feeding carbon. You are feeding carbon with one hand, and removing carbon with the other hand. So it's almost a truely recycled system.


Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity.

How is this.


It may be possible that some DOC components are not food in a closed loop system as well. I am unclear about this.

All DOC is food, as in the ocean. In the ocean, DOC is the largest non-living biomass of all (bacteria is the largest living biomass). DOC is eaten by bacteria and corals, directly. And bacteria feed the zooplankton and corals, directly. And zooplankton feed the corals, directly. If you want several days of good reading, just read some studies on DOC and "microbial food webs".


What I very much like about this system is the ability to tie up and then export ammonia.

Yep, ammonia is algae's favorite food.


What I have seen is that they appear healthy with a bit more polyp extension.

Because of more particulate food (protein) in the water.


I have increased feeding several fold, and see no signs of stress.

You cannot "over feed" corals. They can eat as much food as you could ever put in the water. Probably 100 times what you are feeding now. The limit, instead, is how strong your scrubber is. In the ocean there is 300 feet of algae (phytoplankton) on the surfance, and on the reefs there are square miles of sea-floor algae, all doing the filtering. All you have in your tank is the few square inches of algae on your scrubber.



I feed H20? Coral food, mysis, cyclops, rotifes, pollock/algae mix and oyster feeds almost 20CC/wk

That's a nice start... 20 ml per week. I currently feed 48 ml per day. Plus, one dead fish (silverside) per week, plus about 10 square inches of nori per day. N and P are "zero". My fast growing sps double in mass every 4 weeks. When I stop feeding, they stop growing. I only have 150 watt halides. I probably need more wattage to get the same growth from the acros.


Only down side is my Maldives orange pavona is a bit dull.

Try doubling your food. You really are not feeding that much, for a scrubber. Food give corals the nitrogen they need to repair.

[new2scrub]

what does the silverside feed? worms?

[SantaMonica]

Eel

[iggy]

Traditional 2-part dosing also should consider a bit of water change from potential to build up salinity.


How is this.


Really basic chemistry but CaCL2 calcified with Na2CO3 will leave CaCO3 and 2 NaCl that will raise salinity. I use about 1 gallon every 6 weeks now so some water change to account for this will always take place in my tank.

I will increase feeding a bit more.

I think your doing a bit of hand waving to say dilution is not a factor of nutrient export still in a natural reef. If the gradient is between ocean and reef is 5 fold for nitrogen then it will take place and difficult to quantify. I am also certain some DOC is less viable than other DOC as food, at least for what is present in most tanks.

What has become very dusty and appears more at some times of the day. Growth rate of coraline algae is less but over all calcium demand is the same so far.

[SantaMonica]

If the gradient is between ocean and reef is 5 fold for nitrogen then it will take place

Yes but the gradient is created by organisms on the reefs, and the nitrogen is also consumed by organisms on the reef, before the nitrogen can be "diluted" into the open ocean.


I am also certain some DOC is less viable than other DOC as food, at least for what is present in most tanks.

Of course it varies. But corals have evolved to use the DOC that is available (and produced by) algae. So if your system is run by algae, it will have the best cross section of DOC that suits the corals.


What has become very dusty and appears more at some times of the day.

If you mean "water" and not "what", then you are seeing 7-day-old baby copepods.


Growth rate of coraline algae is less

Should be more. Check your phosphate.


and difficult to quantify

It's been quantified very well in the pertinent studies:

Online photochemical oxidation and flow injection conductivity determination of Dissolved Organic Carbon [DOC] in estuarine and coastal waters. The University of the South Pacific Library, 1999.
http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... 00004783_1 (http://www.reefbase.org/download/download.aspx?type=10&docid=A0000004783_1)

DOC plays an important role in the bio-geochemistry of any aquatic system, because it is a component of the total carbon which is cycled through organisms, the water body, sediments and plants.

and

Swarming of Polychaetes on the Great Barrier Reef. Proceedings of the 6th International Coral Reef Symposium, 1988
http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... ocid=10533 (http://www.reefbase.org/download/download.aspx?type=10&docid=10533)

Polychaetes are a major component of coral reef ecosystems, occurring in large numbers in both lagoonal and inter-reefal sediments, and within infaunal communities of coral reef substrates. These polychaete communities are diverse, and include representatives of many families and species. Generalized comments have been made as to the role that polychaetes may play in the coral reef ecosystem, which include food sources for a variety of organisms, initial borers of recently dead corals, and recyclers of the abundant mucus produced on the reef.

and

Various aspects of the nitrogen cycle on coral reefs have been studied at different times of the year, and at various locations.

Table 2
Mean nitrogen concentrations over 1979 and 1980 at
selected sites in three reef zones [readings are ug/l]:

Zone................Location...............Nitrate +Nitrite

South crest.........#4.....................0.35
and back reef......#8.....................0.55
Mid lagoon..........#10....................0.93
....................#11....................0.73
....................#13....................0.71
....................#15....................1.00
Southeast and.......#29....................1.36
northeast crest....#1.....................1.22
....................#12....................1.43


Shelf-scale nitrogen and phosphorus budgets for the central Great Barrier Reef. Proceedings of the Eighth international Coral Reef Symposium, 1997:
http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... docid=7786 (http://www.reefbase.org/download/download.aspx?type=10&docid=7786)

All of the above fluxes [nutrient movements] take place against a very large background of re-suspension and deposition of particulate matter and associated nitrogen and phosphorus. A significant proportion of the total particulate nitrogen and particulate phosphorus measured in shelf water is detrital [waste], and much of this detritus is derived from or at least recycled through the [reef floor].

and

In the other 90%: phytoplankton responses to enhanced nutrient availability in the Great Barrier Reef Lagoon. Marine Pollution Bulletin, 2005
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15757726

In the case of nutrients, however, benthic organisms and communities are largely responding to materials which have cycled through and been transformed by pelagic communities dominated by micro-algae (phytoplankton), protozoa, flagellates and bacteria. Because GBR waters are characterised by high ambient light intensities and water temperatures, inputs of nutrients from both internal and external sources are rapidly taken up and converted to organic matter in inter-reefal waters. Phytoplankton growth, pelagic grazing and remineralisation rates are very rapid. Dominant phytoplankton species in GBR waters have in situ growth rates which range from one to several doublings per day. To a first approximation, phytoplankton communities and their constituent nutrient content turn over on a daily basis. Relative abundances of dissolved nutrient species strongly indicate N limitation of new biomass formation. Direct (15N) and indirect (14C) estimates of N demand by phytoplankton indicate dissolved inorganic N pools have turnover times on the order of hours to days.

and

A TOTAL NITROGEN AND CARBON BUDGET FOR THE ELKHORN CORAL Acropora Palmata, Proceedings of the 6th International Coral Reef Symposium, Australia, 1988,
http://www.reefbase.org/download/downlo ... ocid=10501 (http://www.reefbase.org/download/download.aspx?type=1&docid=10501)

Any ammonium produced from the catabolic breakdown of amino acids must be recycled within the symbiosis, since there was a net uptake of ammonium. Interestingly however, mean estimates of dissolved organic nitrogen loss were greater than inorganic nutrient uptake,
indicating that some of the nitrogen acquired from particulate feeding may have been released as dissolved organic nitrogen / mucus.

and

Linkage of small-scale spatial variations in DOC, inorganic nutrients and bacterioplankton growth with different coral reef water types, Aquatic Microbial Ecology, march 2001
http://www.int-res.com/articles/ame/24/a024p017.pdf

Coral reefs are characterized by relatively high gross primary productivity [i.e,, growth from the sun] sustained by the symbiosis between corals and symbiotic algae, the large photosynthetically active area of reef surfaces, ample light, and inorganic carbon [i.e., CO2 etc]. Moreover, coral reefs are well known to trap [eat] particulate organic matter and nutrients from the overlying water. Nevertheless, the gross respiratory consumption [i.e, what reefs "give off"] in reef systems is approximately equal to the gross photosynthetic fixation [i.e, what reefs "take in"], and the net flux of organic matter is typically small [meaning, a reef recycles the nutrients, just like an aquarium]

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reef:

Most importantly, nutrients are recycled, and not lost like they are in the open ocean. In coral reefs and lagoons, the producers include phytoplankton as well as marine worms, seaweed, and coralline algae, especially small types called turf algae, which pass their nutrients to the corals.[26] The phytoplankton are eaten by fish and crustaceans, who also pass nutrients along the food web. Recycling ensures that fewer nutrients are needed overall to support the community.

and

Coral reef primary productivity: a beggar's banquet. Trends in Ecology & Evolution, May 1988,
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 4788901176 (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/0169534788901176)

Primary production in coral reef ecosystems proceeds rapidly through small packages. Maximum areal rates rival the best agricultures, but most of the organic production is conserved and recycled within component organisms and communities. Interactions with animals serve to maximize the productivity of both individual plants and extensive plant assemblages.

[iggy]

Corraline algae does appear OK on closer look and pleased with results overall. Only coral of Orange Pavona may be coming back after being moved away from Red branching pavona. Polyp extension does appear very good assuming this indicates good health. I am still going to perform water changes however as I do not use full balling system. It is very difficulty to quantify DOC, with advanced instruments and composition is very difficult. I am not overly concerned about idea of a fully closed loop system. Phosphates tested 0.02 with LR Hanna meter with no GFO in 4 weeks plus so am pleased.

Trouble I see with your studies is that in now way do the benthic organisms in aquarium have enough biodiversity to perform as a closed reef system. While algae scrubber makes system more forgiving and provide a way to export nutrients, they also produce some DOC at the same time. It

I have built another quarantine tank and made an in tank Scrubber that gets light through backside. I have the new DC controlled sump pump that can make a surge action. Tunze makes too many parts they have trouble tracking themselves. I'll post a few pictures when it is running.

[SantaMonica]

benthic organisms in aquarium have enough biodiversity to perform as a closed reef system

It's not the benthic organisms doing the filtering in a tank, it's the large quantity of chlorophyll in the algae. A scrubber that is packed with algae comes close to the amount of algae per unit area on a reef.


While algae scrubber makes system more forgiving and provide a way to export nutrients, they also produce some DOC at the same time.

Of course... what do you think provides DOC to corals in the oceean? Algae. And what do you think provides DOC for bacteria and other microbes to feed on? Algae. And of course, corals eat DOC, bacteria and other microbes.

You are thinking that DOC "builds up" in a tank. It does not. The corals, bacteria and other microbes keep it in check. Otherwise the ocean would "build up". The corals cannot get enough food in a tank; they keep the DOC, bacteria and other microbes at a very low level because corals keep eating them. My tank is over 2 years old, running on just algae, and no water changes. If DOC "built up", it would have "overflowed" with DOC a long time ago. Just because you cannot "see" DOC being eaten, does not mean it is not. This is a basic function that any marine biologist understands.

[iggy]

I very much like the initial results I have obtained after 6-8 weeks but am trying to better understand system. From my reading DOC does build up or is perceived to build up based on the remaining color bodies that can yellow the tank over time. Color in water is usually a crude measurement but is just looking downward through a white bucket.

Diatoms never went away previously partly from active large clams stirring sand. That problem is completely gone now.

My version of the algae scrubber will have a few modifications.

1) Tunze DC backed up sump pump on marine batter to prevent it from crashing. When power goes out relay switch draws power from battery that is stored beneath tank. I also draws for (2) Tunze 6105's. The system also has a controller that can alternate pump output to act like a dump bucket. I am concerned tank could easily crash if scrubber dried out too long.

2) Two part dosing is very easy to control with AC jr controller and BRS Drew's dosing pumps. This results in salinity increase over time. This can be compensated by running a full balling system with expensive sodium "salt" free special salt mixes and blend of MgCl2 and MgSO4. I am compensating instead dosing weekly or biweekly 5% water changes that pulls out some detritus in sumps and overflows.

3) I use one teaspoon per 20 gallons of carbon changed monthly. I am not interested in yellow tint as it is a display tank. The increased feeding I am already doing should make corals even if DOC along with colored bodies is removed.

My next project will be to make a DIY alarm in AC jr socket that goes off when measured parameters ph temp are out of range. I also want to have ATS over refugium with sand in sump at some point but not right now. That would involve another new sump.

[SantaMonica]

From my reading DOC does build up

What reading is this? Show me the source, and then I'll post as many sources as you want that show that bacteria and corals consume DOC before it ever "builds up". Remember, that's what corals and bacteria eat... DOC.


based on the remaining color bodies that can yellow the tank over time. Color in water is usually a crude measurement but is just looking downward through a white bucket

1. There is no "pure white" color in the ocean to compare the water to. If you take that "pure white" bucket, however, to a "crystal clear" reef and get some water, and you compare it to another bucket of RODI water, you will see a slight greenish (not yellow) tint that the phytoplankton give to it. And if you scuba on a "crystal clear" reef, and you look far away while underwater, you will see the same slight greenish (not yellow) tint from the same phytoplankton. Thus, if you want a natural "crystal clear" reef, you do not want "RODI transparent" water color... you want slight greenish (not yellow) tint that you can only see when comparing to an artificial pure white surface.

2. If you are seeing yellow, something is wrong. Usually, you are not cleaning often enough. Or sometimes, your light is not strong enough. I'll soon be posting newly discovered info (just found out last night) about how weak light increases DOC output of algae, more that it would "normally" have.


I am concerned tank could easily crash if scrubber dried out too long

There have been no reports of anyone's tank "crashing" from this. A screen can last 2 to 6 hours without flow, depending on how much air gets to it. And even after such an event, all you have to do it clean the screen, and stop feeding for a few days until the growth gets back to normal. Enclosed scrubbers usually won't dry out at all, even after a whole day.


The increased feeding I am already doing should make corals even if DOC along with colored bodies is removed.

Remember that particulate food (what you are "feeding") and DOC are two different types of food for corals. The more they have of both, the more they grow. Limiting either one will slow growth.

[iggy]

I have the problem of losing power for more than 2-6 hours and often at worst time. The flow in the tank from stream pumps may be more critical for the sand bed but I will continue with this method hardware.

My current tank does not have a yellow tint and I am not comparing my set up to the ocean at this point. The source of yellow tint from algae turf scrubbers goes back to reading Sprung Volume one where this was mentioned and results are pervasive in bulletin boards. I can not argue if this is true or not. If this is not true with weekly remote screen cleanings then I should be fine.

What do you currently use to make up for calcium and alkalinity in your system?

[SantaMonica]

Lime water.

[iggy]

Ok Thanks for input.

I am going to run tank as is except for some Iron dosed to tank and further increase feeding. I'll post back some pictures in future.

[iggy]

Scolymia has not opened in last 3-4 days. I have had that coral 5 years and it was only of the easiest to keep.

I am assuming at this time it is due to scribbled rabbit fish, but not sure. SPS growth is my primary concern and they are all doing well and growing. I'll increase feeding if possible to oral disk and cover from fish.

[chrissu]

Iggy, How's your SPS growing this month?

[iggy]

Hi Guys,

Just letting the tank continue to grow. Overall I am pleased with results. These comments may mislead you to think otherwise though.

I am running a display tank dominated with SPS hence my post titles looking for some direction. There are not much out there for developed SPS running this type of systems I am afraid, at least being posted anywhere. I only had a few LPS and here are there results.

Based on troubles I had with LPS only I now run a modified ATS system and moved LPS else where. Scolyoma died rapidly. It was rapid white tissue decay. I do attribute it to the filter change over. Autrea's have closed up and do not open a they were doing well before and feeding readily. Old large pectinia with had very interesting night feeding was in a declining condition as well before moving it and it is now recovering. Large ones like that are hard to find.

However, coralline algae accelerated, nitrates are <0.25 N-NO3 by Lamotte and actually lower visiually. Phosphates are 0.03 or o.02 depending on blank by Hana LR Meter.

Yellow Eye Kole Tang developed a slight bristletooth look on mouth. Rabbitfish had it and it recovered. It appears to eat healthy and I suspect it is recovering and I started skimming to pull bacteria from water. I did not move it based on a judgement call.

BUT

All sps are in excellent health and seem to like the higher DOC and lower nutrient levels. I do very gently skim as I am running a display tank. I have increased two part by 25% and still monitoring closely. The conditions in the tank now highly favor SPS growth. I essentially replaced large refugium with ATS and stopped carbon and GFO.

I will keep this system through out year and monitor closely and photograph growth. I do have many nice corals to develop. I am not a fragger unless I need new bulbs.

I do not run any special additives other than feeding a lot. I scrape filter back every sat or fri night heavily with an automotive scraper and run brush over slot to limit spray from back pressure. Ideally I would have two screens and clean twice a week, but heavier scraping results in heavier growth it appears.

I may add Iron with a Eheim liquidoser daily in future.

[apt220]

Good thread. Any updates?

[iggy]

Thanks! Will follow up with pictures sometime.

Dosing pumps have doubled. I use BRS Drew's doser for 50 min each on a 140 display tank. Observations this month on tank are slight amount of cyano is growing ONLY on back wall. This surprises me as I have two Tunze 6105's and Eheim 1262 Sump pump. I scraped it off in 5 minutes. As always it is not a controlled experiment in anyway and rear T5 bulb was changed to Korel Pink bulb for coloration.Did not install Electronic Control sump pump for alternating flow because I am saving for Apex controller that would have greater control over pump.

This weeks scrapping I went a bit further and removed more than 95% of algae to keep growth strong. I did notice a stronger growth on the glass. but then dry skimmer mysteriously overflowed wet this week too.

Growth is definately good on SPS.

I do a few things differently to maintain tank. I run a detritus storm with power heads and along with Tetra Diatomagic filter. This keeps algae I scrap off mechanically filtered as well. I run for 2-3 hours and clean and put away for 4-6 weeks. Heavy brown film is collected. from particles of mulm. Have not run GFO or carbon and keep algae cropped back regularly. I am getting exceptional growth on ORA Spongodis. Blue Iris and Borealis and purple rim capricornis.

Overflows in Oceanic Tank are filled with life. Very little algae but encrusted with Corraline, new sponges, and fuzzy feathery mats on pipe I can not identify. Also has white dots everywhere. Might be barnicles, along with 100's of baby snails.

White tuft of mouth of Yellow Eye Kole Tang healed. I suspect it was from spikes on rabbit fish it swims around with.

Only thing that bothered me was comments by Anthony Calfo I reread in his recent propogation book. He refered to ATS along with refugiums need very careful watching and care needs to be taken not to let ATS grow to point of competing with corals. He clearly did not recommend for monocultures for propogation. While he has much more experience than me I do know my 140 has always ran better when a 20 gallon tall refugium using 70 watt halide growing cropped chatemorpha was used, as well as ATS this fall.

[apt220]

Thank you for sharing you experiences. Has color changed much after starting the scrubber?

[SantaMonica]

A few things:

When you start dosing dead food, as opposed to live food, you are adding nutrients along with the food. The nutrients go into the water column immediately, and are picked up by the cyano before the water even gets a chance to go to the scrubber. So you will start noticing, as I have, that the more you dose, the more thin cyano you get in the darker or lower areas (has nothing to do with your lights). Interestingly, how strong your scrubber is does not matter, because the cyano gets the nutrients before the water ever gets to the scrubber. So, for highly-dosed tanks (which is a new area for reefing), the ways to combat this are:

1. Dose really slowly, so that the standing-amount of nutrinets in the tank never get too high before they can overflow into the scrubber.

2. Design an ultra-high flow scrubber system, so that as soon as you dose, the nutrients do not get a chance to "sit" in the tank...they instead are pulled immediately into the scrubber, repeatedly. This means that the entire volume of the tank would need to pass through the scrubber every 10 or 20 seconds. This level of flow would make the return pump look small.

3. Dose into the input of the scrubber, so at least it gets one pass through the scrubber before coming into contact with the cyano in the tank.

4. (Best but hardest solution)... Dose live food only. If you do this, you can ignore the above three items.


As for Anthony, unfortunately he is wrong; the more algae you have in your system, the more it approaches a natural reef (which is 90 percent algae), and the more protein, amino acids, and food particles it will have for coral growth, and the lower the nutrients will be.

[iggy]

As far as colors go, they are very good. Tyree Sunset Montipora and Orange Montipora with white base stand out now. It seems nitrates can effect coloration and SPS respond in 2-3 months time with lower levels.

As for food I use a lot; Average day
10-15 cc oyster feed daily
1 cube H2O Caviar- Roe eggs
2 cubes pollock with spirulina
2 cubes H20 Coral Food - mix
1 cube frozen rotifer
1 chunk mysis
1/2 sheet nori every other day

I thaw it in hot water and do a very quick rinse in brine shrimp net. Enough to lose nutrient rich water and keep food behind. This eliminates a lot of nutrients. Not home enough to dose (food) but would make sense. Rotifers are difficult to screen and I don't have that much patience normally.

Cyano was mild overall but certainly present. I am aware that blue-green algae thrives in fresh water tanks with high phosphates and low nitrates. It is fixed by water changes and potassium nitrates. It is entirely like Cyano can be limited by adding nitrates back to favor growth of other algaes. I am reluctant to do this however. Only 1 ppm in tank might be necessary. I would prefer to lightly scrape 1X per month if necessary instead of anything drastic.

[sklywag]

I also get/have Cyano in my tank. Comes and goes in what some may call severity but never out of control. If it were a nuscience I'd maybe be upset, but it is never out of control so I consider it part of my reef. Unless I know we're having company in a couple of days in which I add some Red Slime remover and it dissapates for a good week or so.

[iggy]

My issue is more of a long term care concern when compared algae present in what Coral Magazine/Shimek called anorexic in recent issue. I am trying a few things that may not help situation. Flow is very high with two 6105's and eheim 1262 on 140.

Carrying over from growing vascular plants, Blue Green algae exists when phosphates are not limited compared with nitrates. In a low nutrient reef it is possible that phosphate spikes from food are enough to enable cyano to get a foothold.

A few long term techniques I am considering are

1) Tank will have 2-3 consecutive days without halides per month. Cyano is known to deteriorate fast without light with new controller.
2) Sump is connected to ATS and Tank. ATS should be above tank ideally.
3) Increase lighting to 1.5 watts per gallon from 0.7 watts per gallon on ATS
4) very reluctantly add a nitrogen source to have algae out compete cyano more effectively (Is amino acids possible?)
5) live with it :? ?

[sklywag]

Looks as though I've already chosen #5.

Everyone(popular sites) states it's from low flow. I never thought it was flow for I have lots of flow and still get it. As stated in #1, have noticed it comes and goes daily with lights. In the morning it will be faint but by the end of the day more prominent. The run the same course again the next day. I run T5s. And I'm sure the food I buy is garbage. But the fish and corals enjoy it and it's really all about them.

[Vannpytt]

My SPS are thriving and growing alot. I'll post pictures soon. I do run carbon a week of the month to clear out any excess biomass. Polyp extension during lightoff is _insane_. Too bad my cameras are way to shit to take decent pictures during the night.

[iggy]

If you view that cyano is from spiked phosphates while nitrates are low then it is a problem running a low nutrient system.To solve it would require finding the limiting factor preventing phosphate uptake and/or periodically starving it of light or food.

Using what I had on hand I am adding ~5 cc/day of Brightwell AA. After ten days, NEW never seen before slight brown tufts of brown algae appears on tank walls. Cyano may have been reduced. I will make another assessment in 10 days. If it does work I will cut back usage and then add iron. The idea is adding a nitrogen food without adding nitrates directly. I do view it as questionable idea but trying anyway. Using an Eheim Liquidoser that can do 12 timed turns a day every 6 hours at about 1.6 mls per turn. This is good for AA and iron at least. It is discontinued item.

I'll report back in another 10 days.

Nitrate 0.0 Lamotte LR
Phosphate 0.03 Hanna LR
Alkalinity 140 ppm
Calcium 400 ppm
Magnesium 1400 ppm

Pest in tank
-little cyano
-red turf algae (Turbo Snails)
-2 aptasia I need to re-kill

[apt220]

Let's see some pics please :mrgreen:

[marineguy]

Let's see some pics please :mrgreen:
+1

[iggy]

I just have a fuji finepix and will try to add some later. Some older ones are at top of thread.

AA ran out and supply was too expensive to run long term. Running less than 3 weeks I can make a few observations. Brown tufts grew on glass, and on sand bed a bit. Harder to scrape off than diatoms. ATS grew slightly browner and hairier than darker green. My assumption continues either iron or nitrates are limiting phosphate uptake.

I can assume it contributed to nitrate like effects in tank. Cyano on a few high flow area may have slowly receded on own. I would need another 5 weeks to be sure of this. I chose not to continue based on cost of AA suppliment and not knowing exact contents.I am moving on to Iron Gluconate for 2-4 weeks and then increase nitrogen rich foods. SPS are growing and increasing from 50 to 55 min/day at 1.6CC/min of CaCl2 at 2 1/4 cups per gallon.

Time to replace hamilton 14K 250 DE as well.

[SantaMonica]

Don't forget that amino acids are put into the water by algae. The ocean is 90 percent algae (except for bacteria), so if you want more amino's, you can build a bigger scrubber.

[iggy]

I was looking for effect direct of AA on scrubber and tank directly, in an attempt to control cyano. I am think I will get a few pieces of high quality live rock to replace the problem area. This problem is mild but does need some attention. I am adding Iron Gluconate now to observe effect. I am trying to make sure phosphate is limiting nutrient in ATS growth.

What foods are rich in nitrates and lower in phosphates?

I can only guess and heavily rinse frozen foods.

[SantaMonica]

Calcium Nitrate ...
http://aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp ... =2&Regit=3 (http://aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=3)

[iggy]

1lb of CaNO3 and 8 oz Iron Gluconate powder are a lifetime supply.Would check phosphate in CaNO3 depending on how it is make. I know some Zeovit users add CaNo2 to 2 ppm continuously. Eric Borneman thinks this is backwards approach.

AA did have nitrate like properties on some algae and and very easy on SPS. Some delicate SPS may not like CaNO3 at detectable levels. I would have to see if fueling AA/CaNO3 and Iron Gluconate would starve Cyano from phosphate spikes in aquarium. My algae control is good enough right now to try it.

[iggy]

I replaced bulbs I intended to do first of year from old Hamilton 14K that somehow got put back in service. It is much crisper white that washes out yellow pale blue colors in middle of day.

Only one small place had cyano that could be removed with Turkey baster.It is interesting that only grows on one rock that is in back and on back wall. It is also under KZ Fiji Purple bulb. Scraped back wall off and ran diatom filter 4 hours in display tank. It collected dark black film and then ran carbon another hour in tetra open filter.

I am going to apply Micro-Lift Special blend which is poor man's version of ZeoBak and remove one affected rock. I order Iron Gluconate and CaNO3.

I am attempting to drive ATS to greater phosphate limited growth. to combat cyano with seeding bacteria and further limiting phosphate with bacteria.

All fish and Corals appear great except Acans. Scribbled Rabbit fish is present and known to nip clam. I may move one or the other out. I'll try to post some updated pictures next time.

[apt220]

Iggy, sorry to hear about your battle with cyano.

Just wondering what kind of algae is growing on your scrubber? Is it the desired green hair algae?

Also, have you tried cutting back on feedings?

[iggy]

Hi thanks for support!

What I call a problem might be a concern for others. I have always had red turf and bit of cyano. Healthy turbo snails go after turf. I do grow large tan and white feather dusters better than people that migh be trying to.

Ran a bit of iron gluconate last week to see effect. I got clear and immediate response from ATS showing it was iron limited in growth. It was greener and slimier this week. Some sps greens look brighter. No effect on tank otherwise. I cut Iron in half and will continue.

I have also started Microlift Special Blend at 20cc/day mixed with zeovit coral snow. After 5 days I am optimistic still. I am not adding a direct carbon source other than ATS. I beleive coral snow to be a mineral flocullant. My best guess is bentonite clay in a chalk slurry. It is unusual for me to add soMething not 100% known. Snow I consider optional but will make bacteria stick. Microlift stinks but hope it is still viable.

I am cutting back feeding too. Still skimming with little product. Colors of sps look great with green acro tabling with blue tips. I'll use this to track cyano progress in a few weeks.

[iggy]

I remember when ATS initially reduced diatom films. It looked like it was working but it was not clear for 2-3 full weeks.I am having the same situation with reducing cyano. As mentioned I always had a bit and red turf algae. I used these steps to reduce it.

Assumed foothold in tank that had low nutrients was from spiked phosphates, DOC, and yellow light.

Week 1 - Cyano on rocks only in front and problem spot in left back

Added 10 turbos to go after red turf at same time.
Siphon off one spot with soft sheet. Rest was hard attached film on rocks
Replace halides >18months with new 14K bulbs. Eliminated yellow/red shift
Diatom filter Tetra Diatomagic for 1/2 day with carbon coating after 1 hour.
Reduce liquid foods during time of treatment expecting 5-6 weeks.

Week 2 - No Noticable change

Added Iron Gluconate Solution 1% at 6 cc/day spread out with Eheim Liquidoser. Thought was cyano would go uneffected and reach low nutrient levels if ATS grew faster.

Week 3- ATS confirmed growth was iron limited (and in second week as well.)

Cut iron dosage in half. Cyano might have been effected by lower liquid feedings / bluer light.
Started Microlift Special Blend 120 CC day one and 20 CC daily till 16 oz bottle depleted.
Intended to use with Zeovit coral snow but was stopped by recent storms.

Week 4 - May be seeing rock veins under cyano
Little or no skimmate collection anymore. Will know effect in 2-3 weeks I guess. No further changes until then

[SantaMonica]

It's the food. Cyano is very affected by liquid food additions, because the pulse of nutrients gets to the cyano before the water even gets to the overflow to get to the scrubber. So the cyano might see a spike of P = 2 for a half second, but this is all it takes. Only dosing live food would fix this. I'm dosing 48 ml per day of thick blended oysters, and this is causing what looks to be dark purple coralline, although I know it's cyano because the tangs try to eat it (but can't; it's to firm). When I stop the dosing, it goes away. It's mostly in the front bottom. It actually looks good.

[apt220]

I just think that you are taking this little cyano/red turf algae concern to a whole new level and complicating it bigtime. Cyano feeds off whatever nutrients your system can't handle. Cut down on your feedings even more and let your scrubber catch up or maybe build a more efficient/bigger one. You are adding a lot of stuff to your system and while it's kinda fun experimenting and adding things to your system to see how it reacts, you should be letting your system equilibrate. As the saying goes, nothing good in this hobby happens quickly. Just my opinion of course.

[SantaMonica]

It might be noted that cyano is on all natural reefs.

[iggy]

I did not mention I stopped oyster feast too.

It might seem complicate but I tried to make sure ATS is phosphate limited, and trying to reseed rock that were primarily eco dry rocks. Growth is good overall and maintenance is easy.

Montipora reponds well to excess feeding and wanted to correct issue before proceeding.

I agree it is phosphates in all likelyhod, or phosphates incorporTed in DOC.

[apt220]

It might be noted that cyano is on all natural reefs.

Yeah that is true, but since we have closed systems, we need to be selective of what we let survive/thrive in our tanks. Cyano is just ugly, too. Other examples include acropora eating flat worms and red bugs that are found on natural reefs, but we really would prefer not to have those in our tanks. Although some tanks do just fine with them, it's not really desirable.

[iggy]

I can tell cyano is now dissapearing in tank from top to bottom and right.

When bottle is empty I will go to 1x per week dosing.

[iggy]

Cyano is mostly gone now. Colors are great and clarity is as well.

Getting an enormous amount of white specks growing in sump and back of tank wall. They may be baby feather dusters or some type of barnacle. Baby snails are everywhere too.

I attribute this to ATS feeding them along with a good salt mix. I never had feather dusters before I switched to Tropic Marin. I switched to tropic marin 2 years ago and ATS last Spetember.

[SantaMonica]

Congrats on the cyano. Can you give a summary of the steps...

[iggy]

1)I replaced old halide bulbs with new 14k Hamilton 250 DE. Old 14k were put back in use when I got some burn from 10ks.

2) Discontinued all liquid foods for 2 weeks

3) ran diatom filter tetra diatomagic every week and cleaned glass but did nto disturb sand bed. Powder activated carbon as second coat.

4) Added 20 ml per day of Microbe Lift Special Blend in 180 total gallons. Carbon source was only DOC from ATS.

5) 2cc of 1% iron gluconate was added as only additive during and prior as it goes great with low nutrient ATS.

I am curious about iodide and potassium on colors but will hold off for now.

[SantaMonica]

If I stop the liquid food, it works for me too.

[iggy]

Cyano can hang around for a long tie with starvation alone before. I viewed decline as rapid.