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View Full Version : No Algae growth - Help



nm983
12-24-2008, 06:38 AM
Hi,

I installed AST in a bucket it's not white but covered with reflective cover inside and 4x flurocent bulbs of 28 Watt 1250 Lumen each one. ( two on each side).
The screen width is 10 inches feed by 500G/H pump, the flow is wide and steady as I saw in one of teh pics that Santa Monica uploaded.

However there is only little growth of brown algae, in front of the bulb where teh light is stronger it grow even less. the water temp is 26 Celsius and I don't use a fan.

The Nit is ~200! I assume the phos is also high but I didn't measure. I even brought some algae from the sea but nothing yet it's running two weeks.

What is wrong?

Thank you

SantaMonica
12-24-2008, 10:10 AM
Post a few pics. There is no way you can have that strong lighting without growth in two week.

What is the screen material?

nm983
12-24-2008, 11:04 AM
It's sort of plastic canvas. The green algae brough from the sea.

nm983
12-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Here is the water flow

kcress
12-24-2008, 01:21 PM
Looks nice...

Does the screen wiggle a bunch with the water running down it?

A head scratcher!!

nm983
12-24-2008, 01:32 PM
No - it's just that I had to cut the screen a bit narow in the bottom.

SantaMonica
12-24-2008, 06:23 PM
It's fine, if the lights have the power you say. Give it 7 days, and post pics again. It's going to grow brown before it grows green. Either one is fine.

nm983
12-24-2008, 09:16 PM
Okay - thank you for bringing this graet idea to practice.

One important lesson I learned is that it's important to make a "backup hole" or even better few in differents heights so that if the lower are blocked teh water will have another exit.

worley
12-28-2008, 06:09 AM
Do you have the lights on a timer? having them on for 24x7 with that much light will inhibit growth, I found that out the hard way until I put a timer on and the lights are off 8 hours a day, growth was somewhere in the region of 10 times faster after this.

nm983
12-28-2008, 07:15 AM
yes it's lighting all the time - thank you very much for this input,I will turn it of for 8 hours.

Ther is very little green algae now.

worley
12-28-2008, 04:04 PM
You will be shocked at the difference.
The giveaway was that there was less growth closer to the lights, exactly what happened to me.
Constant very bright light appears to put the algae under stress and it does appear to need time to recover to grow, give it two days or so and the growth will start to explode!
The growth will then become higher closer to the lights, as long as it gets a rest each day.
Is that really 200 ppm nitrate? It will grow like mad with that, but more worryingly your fish won't.
If you have anything in there that is surviving I'd seriously consider a large (50%?) water change and let the scrubber bring down the rest.

nm983
12-28-2008, 09:44 PM
well the reason fo rsuch level of nitrate is previous implementation on DSB that failed.
Now there is only a thin layer, fish are okay since it raised slowly and I am not adding anything until it low again.

kcress
12-28-2008, 11:07 PM
Yes, just fish, can take a slow rise to astronomical levels. As I've said mine is 1200ppm nitrate. I can't hardly wait to see what a TS does for my system.

Plants absolutely need a rest period. Makes sense. I believe they actually reverse cycle. They take in oxygen and give off CO2 if I remember correctly.

nm983
12-29-2008, 08:25 AM
Here is an updated picture you can see clearly that broun algae grow where is less light andgreen where is more light but yet - very little.

Is anyone knows if algae can take advantage of carbon added by vodka dozing same as CO2?

worley
12-30-2008, 03:34 PM
Yes, just fish, can take a slow rise to astronomical levels. As I've said mine is 1200ppm nitrate. I can't hardly wait to see what a TS does for my system.

Yikes, 1200ppm?? How did you even measure it? Did you have to dilute it 10 times with RO and test it? And this is a marine tank?


Here is an updated picture you can see clearly that broun algae grow where is less light andgreen where is more light but yet - very little.
Give it another day or two and it should start to grow pretty quickly as long as the other conditions are ok (enough light, water flow etc). Is that growth with the lights on a timer now (and how long?)

Patrick Pending
12-30-2008, 05:12 PM
It could be photoinhibition too much light energy overwhelming the ability of the algae to use it. The algae then just shut down photosynthesis and stop making food. Consequently, there won't be any significant growth under these conditions. As suggested in earlier posts, giving the algae a dark period will help greatly. This may sound contrary to what you are trying to do, but you could also try reducing the light to one lamp on each side until you have an established growth on the screen. Then once you have a a screen with healthy growth you can then increase the light to favor those algae that can cope with it.

Many(most?) of the marine algaes grow in relatively low light conditions ,they are very efficient at harvesting light at low levels and limited spectrum. These types of algae are not able to utilize high levels of light.

The picture of your tank (is it recent?) does not show any appreciable algae growth which is strange if your nitrates are so high. I think you should also check your water parameters e.g., do you have low KH (can limit algal growth). I rarely do any water changes but if the nitrate was that high I definitely would.

Cheers,

Pat. Pending

nm983
12-30-2008, 11:01 PM
I think the reason that there was no algae growth but brown species because it did not exist in the water. Bringing some algae from the sea helps and I can see same hair algae growin now in front of the bulbs however looks like this type requires tons of lumens. I started injecting very slightly CO2 to the skimmer trying to accelerate the growth - Alkalinity is high and I am checking PH daily -Co2 should also help the bacteria instead of dosing Vodka.

I washed the screen with water, it was supprizing to see how much dirt (and micro algae) kept there, the washing water came out dark brown.

There was mad groe of brown algae inside the aquarium but I reduced the light in about 30%, I am also using active carbon, robust skimmer and cleaning the algae that grow, that's why you don't see much inside the aquarium.

kcress
12-31-2008, 12:22 AM
Yikes, 1200ppm?? How did you even measure it? Did you have to dilute it 10 times with RO and test it? And this is a marine tank?


Yes, a ton of dilution to get to a point where maybe I can see some change at the very top of the range, which is 200ppm.

nm983
01-04-2009, 09:38 AM
Here is an update after using CO2 and 45w + 28W bulb (on one side where the pic from) I found it disspointing.
I am using empty bottle to protect the bulb.

SantaMonica
01-04-2009, 12:44 PM
What is disappointing? Seems like good green growth.

nm983
01-04-2009, 10:03 PM
Is that the amounf of energy required to keep the grow - it's much above what other people using.
Also consider I am using co2.

Is this level of grow already requires cleaning or should I wait a bit more?

10x

SantaMonica
01-05-2009, 01:13 PM
Go ahead and clean weekly now. It will grow more each week.

Patrick Pending
01-06-2009, 04:48 AM
Is that the amounf of energy required to keep the grow - Have you tried using less?

- it's much above what other people using. - Yes, doesn't that suggest that you should be using less not more?

Also consider I am using co2. - I doubt whether CO2 is a limiting factor here. I don't think additional CO2 will make any difference as your system is unlikely to be CO2 depleted.

To achieve optimal growth requires a balanced environment: Light, temperature, nutrients, water chemistry, minerals, CO2, and oxygen. The light also needs to be the correct spectrum, intensity and duration which should include a rest period.
Your lack of growth could be a lack of any one of these requirements but it's not light and it's not CO2!

The material you have used for your screen looks woven. Therefore, there is certainly a possibility that it is soft PVC, in which case it will contain di-ethylhexyl-phthalate (DEHP). DEHP is used as a plasticizer it is not bound to the polymer and leaches out of soft PVC. It is toxic to humans, fish and may well be toxic to the algae :o

Cheers,

Pat. Pending

nm983
01-06-2009, 11:37 AM
1. It grow much faster in front of the bulb so doesn't it means that more light is better?

2. Adding co2 made huge difference, perhaps because I am using active carbon which affect co2 level.

3. is there any method I can use to test if this material is toxic?

10x

Patrick Pending
01-06-2009, 03:05 PM
1. It grow much faster in front of the bulb so doesn't it means that more light is better? - I think you should establish some healthy growth across the whole of the screen before you experiment with varying any of the conditions. Experimentation is great but you need a reference to judge your results against. Start with what works and then vary conditions to see what results in an improvement.


2. Adding co2 made huge difference, perhaps because I am using active carbon which affect co2 level. - Sorry, it doesn't look huge to me and I also use activated carbon.


3. is there any method I can use to test if this material is toxic? - you can do a burn test to determine if the material is PVC. heat a copper wire until the surface oxidises and the flame burns clear, touch the hot wire to the plastic to melt a small amount onto the copper, return the wire to the flame and if it burns green then suspect PVC. There are further tests you can try if you are still unsure.

Cheers,

Pat. Pending

SantaMonica
01-06-2009, 03:38 PM
What is the color of the smaller bulb? It looks very blue.

I say, just clean weekly, and the growth will fill in.

nm983
01-06-2009, 08:41 PM
Well, at least it didn't burn green but orange - I hope there is't any other toxic that orange indicates ;)

The 28w bulb are 6500, the 45w is 2100k, I couldn't find anything else. I can tell you that inside the tank there is brown algae growth below the blue flurocent evet after reducing the light level there. As fas as I know plants are very adaptive to light as long as it is not green. .

Currently There is not much to scrab, I washed it with a strong flow of water untill the water came out clear again. It removed also some of the green algae.

nm983
01-14-2009, 10:22 AM
You must take a close look on the "clean" side to imagine the quantity of ugly black algae that was removed using a knife: lol:

Unfortenatly water parameter are the same yet.

SantaMonica
01-14-2009, 11:12 AM
I hope there is't any other toxic that orange indicates

Orange/yellow growth, when it it thick and rubbery, is from lack of flow.


Currently There is not much to scrab, I washed it with a strong flow of water untill the water came out clear again.

I see the problem now. There is actually a LOT to scrape. That first picture of yours is LOADED with dark brown... ALL of it must come off. Dark brown does not grow thick because it blocks the light so well. The underlying layers are dying off and putting N and P back into the water. Remove the screen and scrape everything off both sides, all the way down to the bare screen.

nm983
01-14-2009, 07:59 PM
Okay, I scraped it on both sides to the bare and washed it.
Does it mean that as long as black algae grow I will have to clean it often on both sides?

SantaMonica
01-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Yes. Don't let the black get more than 3 or 4 days old. In a few weeks, your N and P will be lower, and you'll started getting green , which you can let go a whole week.

zoa
01-15-2009, 04:20 PM
Not trying to hijack here but what about the brown alage? Should it be cleaned off every 3-4 days as well?

nm983
01-16-2009, 06:57 AM
I believe so but lets wait for SM answer.

36 hours passed from last clean and it already full with thin layer of black / brown algae so I cleaned it again and there was relatively plenty to wash - unblivable.

I noticed slight raise in ammonia and nirite levels looks like the dead algae was decompound by PSB to ammonia since there is lot of light there.

I also noticed that it grow thicker with less light so I turned off 2 bulbs and now it's running with single 28w on each side.

SantaMonica
01-16-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes any/all algae needs to be cleaned weekly of course, but the dark brown stuff, and especially the black, needs more often (like 36 hours in your case) because it blocks the light so well. After a few of these cleanings, the algae will start getting lighter.

If the ammonia/nitrite was indeed from the algae (and not something else), then it means more of the algae was dying than was growing. The part that's dying, of course, is the underlying layers that are not getting any light.

And anytime you notice there is more growth with less light, it means either that you are not turning the light off for 6 hours each night, or your flow is too low.

nm983
01-16-2009, 10:17 PM
It's not just that it's less grow but it become whiter with signs of green algae - I suspect that dark algae does not like much light as green. Since it become whiter I suspect also actiivty of photosynthetic bacteria that decoumpound what was left there.

BTW - removing the fan accelerate teh growth speed, I assume it's the rising temprature inside the bucket.

worley
01-19-2009, 02:11 AM
The fan would be reducing temperatures unless the air temperature around the bucket is higher than the tank water?

nm983
01-19-2009, 03:23 AM
the fan reduced the temprature inside the bucket - looks like algae grow faster at highr temprature which makes sense - most plants grow during the summer -assuming we are not making an algae soup ;)

nm983
02-11-2009, 10:36 AM
It seems like green algae grow only after brown/red algae grow - I have two questions:

1. Is the red is Ciano and if so what should I do?

2. should I still clean the screen to bare or allow the green algae to grow?

kcress
02-11-2009, 12:27 PM
Clean it just like normal. Don't strip it! As your tank's nutrient levels drop the type of algae on your screen will automatically shift. Right now red algae is the happiest.

consigliere
02-12-2009, 04:19 AM
sorry kcres...I think he should take a single edge razor and run it down the length of the screen ..then invert it and run in the opposite direction...TRUE TURF has strong roots and thats what he wants..I have used this method MANY times on new scrubber screens with great results...the weak,wishy washy ,undesireable algae just falls right off and the stuff with the strong roots begins to take over and dominate..

kcress
02-12-2009, 03:42 PM
consigliere; That's fine but I'm not clear on your razor blade instructions. Are you saying use the blade in the normal manner and carve off down to the screen? Fully eliminate the algae?

worley
02-13-2009, 06:47 PM
Personally, I'm yet to encounter any algae that doesn't come off with a credit card, after six months now.
However, I've been getting various different types of algae that dominate at different times on the screen, all of which seem to smother the other types.
At the moment, it's this very strange dark green algae, it covers all the other algaes, and it produces a plastic-like layer and smothers the other algaes.
I only really noticed when I had a small ammonia spike, started to clean the screen and as I pulled this layer that covered the entire screen off, there was rotting algae underneath, so I think I need to clean a little more often until this stuff goes. It also seems to be giving good enough growth to clean in 4-5 days tops.

SantaMonica
02-14-2009, 07:01 PM
The yellowish plastic-like stuff is from lack of flow.

worley
02-15-2009, 03:47 AM
This is green plastic like algae, and I know the flow is too low with this pump, there seems to be a huge loss in flow when connected. I've checked the pump without the flexible pipe connected to the scrubber and it gives pretty good flow, but even with the slot cut at 90 degrees to the main slot it's still flowing pretty slowly (there's no obstructions in the sccrubber, you can blow air through the pipe without much resistance).
I have however, cleaned all of one side, and got rid of the plasticy coating on the other and cleaned out the feed pump and the flow is a little better.

nm983
02-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I wonder what should be P & N levels so that green algae will grow?

I made whater changes and now N is 50 and P 0.1 but thereis bery little green algae.

SantaMonica
02-15-2009, 07:02 PM
Much lower, probably N = 10

consigliere
02-16-2009, 11:16 AM
I just hold a single edge razor in one hand ,pointed slightly at a forward angle and just run it with moderate pressure down the screen...then I flip the screen upside down and repeat ...it really doesnt strip the screen...Like I said- just the weak alge goes...the strong gets stronger ...and thats what u want anyway...

nm983
02-17-2009, 10:24 AM
Since ATS was not a a success for me so far I even start getting low Ammonia and nitrite levels which I never had I decided to take new approach:
After cleaning of cleaning the screen using a razor it still seems dirty so I took a hard bristle brush and clean the screen with it using hard pressure , it took out TONS of dirt, much more than the razor eliminated. Perhaps it’s the nature of the screen I am using.
After I installed it back in the bucket and turned the light on, I was surprised to find short green hair on the screen after clean it so much. Looks like it being choked under the dark algae and it look much resistant.
I will keep updating you as have more results.

SantaMonica
02-17-2009, 02:25 PM
If you are finding "dirt" type stuff, or green hair "buried", then you are not doing your cleaning. Clean every week, all the way down to the screen, like you did today.

tarraza
02-23-2009, 05:34 PM
Today is mi first day in a forum like this, but the only thing that i can tell you guys is that this is my 5 months that I have NOT change any water in my 30 gal salt watwer tank full of hard corals ,soft corals etc. For more than 8 YEARS i spend a LOT of money on additives to eliminate nitrates above 30ppm, phophate way over 20 not to mention water change every other week just to get partial results. Now I do not even test for nitrates, phopate , I only test one in a blue moon for calcium, ph, and alk. My filtration for this tank is a ACUACLEAR 110 FILTER ON THE BACK OF MY TANK WHITH MY VERSION OF ALGEA SCRUBBLE (of course whith ALL the ADVICES FROM ST. MONICA in). People KEEP IT SIMPLE '' THIS SYSTEM REALY WORK". Soon I will fine the way to send pictures of my tank.

kcress
02-24-2009, 02:33 AM
Bravo tarraza!