Pods in tank or debris from filter sock & floss??

[TankTinkerer]

Okay, so I set up my ATS and put it "in commission" about 17 days ago for my 120 gallon Display Tank and 25 gallon sump. I have a double-sided vertical screen with eggcrate between the two screens (which SantaMonica says it TOO thick and which I'm working on fixing). Right at 7 days, I cleaned 90-95% of the algae and then in a day or two, I saw a small spike in 'trates and phos, and THOUGHT I remembered someone here or on RC saying that you have to leave some algae on the screens in between the cleanings, something like clean one side and a week later the other side. Wasn't able to get back to www.algaescrubber.net (http://www.algaescrubber.net) from Day 14 to Day 17 to confirm, so I let it go. (I know it said EVERY 7 days). On Day 17, when the water started gushing out the top of the "head tube" making a huge waterfall noise, I figured that algae was covering the holes, so I cleaned the head tube and one side of the screen.

Ever since day 10or 11, each time I turn on the return pump after feeding, I'm getting about 3-5 seconds of small, tiny white particles that get pushed out of the return pump line.

Based on the suggestion of a LFS guy I trust, I started using a felt filter sock about 4-5 days ago. Here's how the system flows...

The water in the tank exits the external Over-The-Shoulder overflow box, enters the ATS by gravity and then runs into the Wet-Dry input pipe. From there, the water falls to some white floss and then drips into the white felt filter sock. I took the Bio-Balls out about a week ago to make room for the filter sock, so after leaving the filter sock, water flows directly into a LARGE Chemi-pure Elite bag and then past two 150 gram bags of GFO. I was afraid that the 'trates and phos would spike after taking the Bio-Balls out in 2 batches over 3 days, so I bought some Allgone, which it says is supposed to remove nitrates. It is suppsoed to be a temporary fix until I start to see results from the ATS.

Well, somewhere in the ATS & sump, something is producing small (1-2 mm), straight, white hair-looking somethings. It squirts out of the return pump line after the return pump in the sump comes back on after a feeding. My wife thinks the majority have a small v-shaped tail and are small shrimp or brine or krill. I think the filter sock is shedding or the floss is shedding. None of the fish have RUSHED to the scene to clean up this mess since this started for the last 16 days. Last night, after cleaning the thicker brown algae on the screen with cold water from the hose (yes, it was 34 degrees in Miami yesterday), the white "snow" entered the tank and the fish ate about half of the mess and didn't bother with the rest of the suspended particles. I swear my eyes saw krill and/or shrimp-like bodies, but I could be making my mind think that after hearing of sugar plum fairies and having visions of krill in the water. I did use Brine Shrimp eggs to feed the coral about 4 days ago and about 10 days ago.

After the water leaves the Chemi-pure/GFO/Allgone gauntlet, it flows under a mid-level baffle to the inlet of the skimmer in the skimmer compartment and then over a baffle to the return pump compartment.

I took the floss out and still saw the "snow" then put it back in. I took out the filter sock and thoroughly rinsed the filter sock in a bowl of RO/DI and after turning the pump on without it in the tank, it still "snowed." Some people on RC say that they wash theirs in the washing machine without detergent. Mine are new and I have 3, which I pull out after 4-5 days for a clean one.

I've tried elimating one thing at a time to see what's going on, except the Chemi-pure Elite bag (35 days old) and the GFO bags (30 days old). I replace the algone every 7-8 days.

Suggestions? I'm stumped. If I think it's the Algone and take it out, how long will it take for 'trates to spike, if they are going to spike. I know that's like saying how long does it take to get to the moon without telling you EVERY detail of the vehicles, time of year, phase of the moon, etc and the answer WIDELY varies, but, in general, how long would it take for 'trates to spike.

How long, on average, after starting an ATS have people seen the phos and 'trates go down? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for the long thread, just wanted to be as detailed as possible for you "home gamers" out there that are the experts in detective work.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I started a reef from scratch (well, with a lot of well established live rock anyway) 6 or 7 weeks ago. The scrubber was run from day one. From memory I think the Nitrate and Phos' peaked after about 10 days to 2 weeks after adding livestock and came down quite quickly after that. I think both were zero within a couple of weeks of peaking and they have both tested zero since.

Personally I wouldn't use any filter socks, floss or Algone or whatever. I did use some Seachem Denitrate and Purigen at first but took them out months ago and it made no difference to the NO3 or PO4

The "white snow" is probably baby pods

[TankTinkerer]

Why do you recommend not to use any filter socks? Don't I need to get the BIG chunks out before the water goes to the skimmer to ease the workload on the skimmer?

[SantaMonica]

Easy fix: Remove floss, sock, chemi pure, gfo, allgone, and hopefully the skimmer too.

Leave pump on 24/7

[TankTinkerer]

Can I remove the Chemi-pure, GFO, Algone and filter sock all at the same time?

Doesn't the filter sock help pull out the big chunks?

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Can I remove the Chemi-pure, GFO, Algone and filter sock all at the same time?

Dunno. I think I'd remove the chemical filters gradually if it was me.



Doesn't the filter sock help pull out the big chunks?

What for?

You put food in, then you immediately try to filter it out again.

[TankTinkerer]

Rumpy Pumpy,
I usually turn off the skimmer and return pump while I'm feeding for at least 30-45 minutes so the livestock gets the majority of the food. After that, I want the filter to pull out the chunks so the skimmer doesn't have to work so hard. Are you saying that the big chunks of food and the dissolved organic compunds (DOC) that the skimmer are supposed to eliminate are the food for the algae to grow on the screen? How does cleaning the screen 90-95% every 7 days keep the nitrates and phosphates from spiking the day after the cleaning?

I have a tank that is 24 inches deep and I have a return pump that is just barely getting the water uphill to the 5 foot point. I think the GPH at 5 feet is about 450-600 gph, so I bought a Mag 12 hoping that I'd get more turnover per hour. I always have a bunch of suspended particles that don't seem to float up to the surface and then down to the ATS and skimmer, so I have been trying my best to figure out where the particles come from. I have a sand-sifting Blue striped and Yellow head Goby so I think he's the culprit with my crushed coral bottom.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

Rumpy Pumpy,
I usually turn off the skimmer and return pump while I'm feeding for at least 30-45 minutes so the livestock gets the majority of the food. After that, I want the filter to pull out the chunks so the skimmer doesn't have to work so hard. Are you saying that the big chunks of food and the dissolved organic compunds (DOC) that the skimmer are supposed to eliminate are the food for the algae to grow on the screen? How does cleaning the screen 90-95% every 7 days keep the nitrates and phosphates from spiking the day after the cleaning?


To tell you the truth, I've never owned or run a skimmer so I can't really comment on those.

The thing with using a scrubber though is that, once established, you shouldn't need any other form of filtration (save for live rock). The whole concept of the scrubber is that you add food to the tank, the fish, clean up crew, corals and microbes in the tank consume the food and eventually break it down into compounds (including but not limited to NO3 and PO4) which algae uses to reproduce and grow. The scrubber provides conditions which favour the growth of algae and a premium surface on which to grow (allowing the algae in the scrubber to out-compete the algae in the tank for nutrients) You then harvest some of the algae once a week or so and thus export the waste products from the food you've been adding which has been incorporated into the algal biomass.

There is no need to "remove the large chunks" with a sock or floss because it all gets consumed one way or another and ends up being converted into algal biomass (which you will later remove)

My 55 gal reef system has been running for 7 months (I'd been keeping freshwater fish for 20 odd years previously) using only my home made (and probably not very efficient) scrubber (ok, for the first 2 or 3 months there was a bit of Purigen in the sump too but I don't think it did much). I have made no water changes at all over that time (obviously I have topped up with RODI water to replace evaporation), and other than food, I've only added Alk, calcium and occasionally some Seachem Reef Plus (still on my first bottle). The tank is not heavily stocked with fish, (a Yellow tang, pair of clowns, a coral beauty and five chromis) but I feed quite heavily (I think), everything is growing, the water is clear and I have only lost one fish since the start (a small clown which I believe was attacked by one or more of the other fish when introduced them). All the corals have grown and the hermits and other inverts appear to be thriving (although I did lose a shrimp too).

I test for NO3 and PO4 weekly and it is always zero. I suppose there might be a short spike after cleaning the algae, I haven't tested the day after cleaning frankly, but the algae starts to grow back immediately (you need to leave some on to reseed the screen), so I don't think that is likely to be a problem.




I have a tank that is 24 inches deep and I have a return pump that is just barely getting the water uphill to the 5 foot point. I think the GPH at 5 feet is about 450-600 gph, so I bought a Mag 12 hoping that I'd get more turnover per hour. I always have a bunch of suspended particles that don't seem to float up to the surface and then down to the ATS and skimmer, so I have been trying my best to figure out where the particles come from. I have a sand-sifting Blue striped and Yellow head Goby so I think he's the culprit with my crushed coral bottom.

Maybe, does it matter?

You could always add a couple of powerheads to move it round.

[TankTinkerer]

You mention leaving some algae on the screen to seed the next week's batch, but no one says how much. SantaMonica recommends 90-95%. Someone on Rc said keep one side and clean the other.

The algae is thin, thin brown, looking more like the crud that comes from the skimmer. Why is it that Rumpy Pumpy can run his tank without a skimmer and EVERYONE else with a refugium has to have one, even though they have plenty of chaeto or caulerpa??

In any case, it's been 19 days and now my Phosphates have gone from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.5.

I don't want to kill my coral...what do I do to lower the phosphate until the ATS really starts working??

[SantaMonica]

If you build and operate the scrubber right, it will work. Let's see lots of pics of the screen, light, etc...

[Rumpy Pumpy]

You mention leaving some algae on the screen to seed the next week's batch, but no one says how much. SantaMonica recommends 90-95%. Someone on Rc said keep one side and clean the other.

My screens are not typical of what people use. I use the reverse side of wall tiles which have a rippled imprint on them. I scrape the entire surface of the tile each time, usually with an old credit card but occasionally with a box knife blade, when it starts to get quite tough. Obviously some of the algae is left in the ripples on he tile surface and I find that's easily enough.




The algae is thin, thin brown, looking more like the crud that comes from the skimmer. Why is it that Rumpy Pumpy can run his tank without a skimmer and EVERYONE else with a refugium has to have one, even though they have plenty of chaeto or caulerpa??

Couldn't possibly comment, I can only tell you what I have observed from mine.

It's not just me who runs with a scrubber alone.




In any case, it's been 19 days and now my Phosphates have gone from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.5.

I don't want to kill my coral...what do I do to lower the phosphate until the ATS really starts working??


So your phosphates have risen, since you started the scrubber, even though you are still using the skimmer and your other methods of filtration?

[Eclip]

The light brown is the first type that i found grows. When i clean up around the slot so its perfectly clean to keep good flow then i clean off leaving only little strips of algae left the algae will spread and grow in fairly quickly if you are feeding enough. You can reduce feedings a little if you are worried about PO4 but .5 will not hurt them much especially if it is on its way down. clean 90% each time and it will grow green if you have enough flow.