Can an ATS cause problems with Acropora / SPS?

[rygh]

First, I have been running a fairly successful ATS now for quite a while, and am a bit of an advocate.
I have a reef tank, with fish and softies, but no SPS yet.
I have been discussing various ATS strategies with some local experts as I migrate toward an SPS dominated reef tank.
And some of what they said, and some scientific papers they pointed out, make me worry.
(These are not alarmist ats-haters. It is a real concern)

The premise is this: Algae produce various substances that
crank up microbial activity, causing problems in SPS corals, especially Acropora.
On key study was where they placed quite a bit of algae next to a coral, separated by a fine mesh.
No algae - coral was fine.
With algae - coral died off.
With algae and antibiotics - coral was fine
Not sure what type of algae it was.

Enclosed is a quick graph from one paper showing the effect of algae.
In particular, note the turf one.

It is clear from what I have read that SOME algae can really hurt SPS coral, and that turf algae is probably one of those.
It is not clear about hair algae, which is what vertical scrubbers grow.
And of course, these studies were not about ATS systems, but more general coral bleaching.

It does seem that carbon can eliminate the issue, as would big water changes.

SO:
Anyone out there know more details on this?
Anyone out there have an ATS, and a decent amount of Acropora (not softies), and NOT run carbon?

[Vannpytt]

I recently added 10+ Acropora, running perfect watervalues, thought I have algae in tank. I myself witnessed RTN on a few, almost instantly. I added carbon a few days ago and the RTN stopped, for now. The water has that crystal clear non natural look, and the corals seem more happy. This is in no way scientific, and my scrubber, however big, was not running enought stream at that time, so I can't really say either way. Some algae however, do extrude growth inhibiting toxins to the watercolum as this is one of their natural ways of "taking over the hood". Again, I do not have any science behind this, and from what I gather, in nature, there is far more water to dillute toxins, so the beneficial effects of algae are almost only positive.

Then again, bacteria eat toxins. SPS eat zoo and phyto.

[rygh]

Interesting. Fits what I have heard from others.
Although there are so many variables, these things are hard to prove.
But maybe there is something to this problem.

Is your ATS growing hair or turf, or maybe slime?

[new2scrub]

are they saying that the growth inhibitors effect all corals or just sps? also i have been told in the past that all soft corals also have growth inhibitors they release. i think santa said that the bacteria "eat" the toxins rendering them harmless, it would be nice to know for sure.

[SantaMonica]

Algae produce various substances that crank up microbial activity, causing problems in SPS corals, especially Acropora.

If by "problems" you mean they grow too much, then yes.

Several hundred studies on real reefs show basic reef operation: Algae produce vitamins, proteins and amino acids, which feed corals directly, and which feed microbs which feed corals directly, and the microbes then feed zooplankton which feed corals directly. That's how oceans work. When you use algae in your tank, then your tank operates like the ocean.


One key study was where they placed quite a bit of algae next to a coral, separated by a fine mesh.

There was another key study where one girl drank so much water that she died (really). She was "really close" to the water, so she drank lots of it, and she died in two hours. And yes, the death was documented as being caused by excessive water intake. There were other people with her, right next to her, in the same temperature air, drinking the same water (although not as much), and they did not die. So this MUST mean that "water kills people".

Point is, hundreds of reefers (even me now) are growiong sps using algae-only filtering. How do you think this is possible if "algae kills sps"? If the people you are talking about were right, all the sps would die. But they are not; they are growing very fast (my digitata's double in mass every month if I feed a lot). SPS are the hardest to grow because they need a lot of light, and lots of food in the water. A lot of people have trouble with the food part.


Enclosed is a quick graph from one paper showing the effect of algae.

You should see the graph of the dead girl, and the effect of water on her.


these studies were not about ATS systems, but more general coral bleaching.

The studies you are talking about, if they are the ones I've read, are dealing with OTHER things that killed corals (water temp, etc) in the ocean, and then algae grows on the skeletons; when enough algae grows, they respire at night and reduce oxygen, (possibly, not tested) hurting the few remaining corals. This is the same as if you had 10 big fish in a small tank (WAY overcrowded) that you normally feed 10 cubes a day. If you started feeding 100 cubes a day, within a day or two the excess food will cause ammonia and loss of oxygen which would kill 9 of the fish. One fish might live, however the 9 other dead fish will now start rotting, and this extra bioload will kill the last fish.

So does food normally kill fish? Does water kill people?

Of course, scrubbers are on reverse photoperiods, and even when off they add oxygen from the waterfall, so the oxygen issue is a non-issue.


It does seem that carbon can eliminate the issue, as would big water changes.

Why would you want to eliminate the vitamins, proteins and amino acids that the acro's need to grow? When are you going to put these things back in?


Anyone out there have an ATS, and a decent amount of Acropora (not softies), and NOT run carbon?

MOST scrubber people don't run carbon. It defeats the purpose.


Some algae however, do extrude growth inhibiting toxins to the watercolum as this is one of their natural ways of "taking over the hood".

All algae exude DOC, which is then depleted by bacteria, which then feeds corals. That's how corals are fed.


in nature, there is far more water to dillute toxins

On natural reefs, most water is recycled; it is not "water changed" as people believe. The reason DOC on reefs is kept low is because what I just wrote above.


I recently added 10+ Acropora, running perfect watervalues, thought I have algae in tank. I myself witnessed RTN

Did you have any acro's before this? If so, then those are the ones to "watch"; not new ones that you just put in. New ones are going through far too much stress from just being moved from tank to tank. If you had acro's previously that were doing "poorly" for several month, and they you added carbon and they did better, you would then have something to look at. But not when adding them newly to the tank. And in the case of already having them, the carbon could have increased light that is reaching the corals, in which case it would really be the light that is the problem. I know it's mine... I only have 150 watt halides.


i have been told in the past that all soft corals also have growth inhibitors they release.

Exactly. And what do you think happens?... bacteria eats it.

If you are going to mention "studies" then you need to post them. Since you didn't, I won't post any either, but I will direct you to one of the few threads on RC that covers many studes on exactly this topic (the last page or two details the consumption of DOC by bacteria)...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843241

Remember, algae is 90 percent of all life in the ocean (besides bacteria). Algae does ALL the filtering, and ALL the feeding, for every living thing in the water.

[Vannpytt]

Yes SM, and this is why I cannot conclude. I recently added Carbon, and I've seen lots of tanks running traditional systems, and their Acros thrive. There are so many factors when introducing new corals, especially SPS that there is no way of saying. What I can say, however, is that with light reduced for 3 days, carbon and skimming, I don't have algae anymore in my tank. It was a really quick fix. On the other hand (Again too many variables) since I increased the flow over my screens, the growth there has been tremendously much greener and longer, so this could also be it. That said, my NPS are not happy anymore. Once my tank is rid of the algae, I will turn off skimmer and remove the carbon. I do however think I'll run carbon once a month for a short period to clear out any excessive toxins, much like you said in your RC post. I also run UV, but for other reasons. And water changes for correcting salts when dosing kalkwasser.

[SantaMonica]

You have the classic case of a weak scrubber: algae in the tank. And the classic case of not enough food in the water: NPS not doing well. Solution to both: scrub stronger, and add coral food (continuously would be best).

The RC post is someone else, btw.

[Vannpytt]

Again, yes, and I asked you what you thought about the config and growth last week and you said "it runs fine". I don't think it runs fine, and would like to know how I can fix my problem. I have wastly enough light in close proximity. I have, or should have, enought flow (8k lph for a 75cm slot). The screens are very rough. Hate to make this into a post on my scrubber. What else am I missing?

[rygh]

That bit with the girl drinking water did little more than confuse me.
And no, I am not complaining about coral getting bigger.

I am really not trying to bad-mouth scrubbers. Check my other threads.
I have an ATS, and am happy with it, and want to use it going
forward as I transition to SPS. But I am really worried.

To be more specific on the problem:
The algae somehow increase the number of microbes that are DAMAGING to SPS coral.
Seems like the final result might be a viral infection.
The coral dies, and does not grow bigger, no.
Microbes liking algae makes sense to me. How they turn-bad, or overwhelm the coral, no idea.
But if you eliminate those microbes, using antibiotics, the coral is happy again.
If you add a lot of carbon, it seems to absorb these chemicals, and all is well.
I do not pretend to know the mechanism, and even the authors do not.


It could need a lot of algae to cause the problem yes, but then there is quite a bit in a scrubber.
Not sure.

Yes, most studies and papers start as a different discussion, to do with mass die-offs.
But as part of those studies, they test the algae / coral interaction, and what is going on.
Thus, those studies really do seem relevant.

You are correct that Vannpytt's original experience with adding those SPS could be attributed to simple acclimation problems.
Sounds like it is more than that though reading subsequent posts.

From what I read/hear, it appears to be specific to SPS. Most LPS do not have this problem.
And as I think I mentioned, I do have LPS now that is quite happy.

Regarding studies and lack of citations: Yes, that was a problem.
Go here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
Search for:
algae effect on coral
Even without an account, the summaries are pretty good.

If there are hundreds of success stories, can you please link to at least one.
Decent size not-brownish Acropora + ATS + no carbon + no huge water changes.
Having a skimmer is fine. Moderate water changes are fine.

Your tank looks great. I looked at those pictures of course.
But all I see is one small Acropora that is really rather funky looking, and not in a good way.
Digitata seems to grow, but hard to tell if it supposed to be brown.

That south african tank looks great.
But at 15% water changes per week, he could probably ditch all the filtration and not notice.

I have seen some other ATS+SPS, but never any with no carbon.

[piratefish]

Well Im just a new guy to reefing only 6 month into this hobby. My only filtration from the start has been the SM100. I have mostly lps and sps. My Acros are growing just fine. Mostly just frags but they are growing. I have one large orange digitata that I broke a piece off of about a month ago and never glued it to a plug. It is now attached to the rock. My purple haze monti that is just 2 months old has almost encrusted the 3" disk it is attached to. This is just my experience and again Im really new to this hobby. I only have a 55g with 6x54 watt TekElites

[rygh]

Very good to hear!! :D
You should add some quick pics to the success pages.
Double checking - not running carbon, correct?

[iggy]

I have been growing SPS for maybe 10 years, and before that I grew display tanks of planted fresh water tanks with fertilizer and CO2. SPS are over rated in difficulty by many novice aquarists that don't understand requirements.

You can view SPS and asses health just like you can with planted tanks. Some general guidelines are:

Birdsnest with fine pointed needles will indicate low nitrates.

Cyano will indicate high ration of phosphate to nitrates and low flow. This is true in both fresh water and saltwater tanks.

Hair algae could indicate too much iron in freshwater but is a sign of high nutrients in reef tanks. More specifically I would indicate growth with nitrates that is not phosphate limited.

Corraline algae growth indicates a slightly supersaturated Calcium level with phosphate limited growth. SPS can grow without supersaturation but coralline growth rates are a very good indicator as well.

Temperature variations of more than 3F is not advised but possible 2F swing is better such as 79-80F.


ATS can create right conditions however it can bring a very quick change in conditions that may make adjustments necessary. It can be compared to rapid introduction of vodka system. I increased feeding 2X and may go to 4X over next year.

Observations are likely attributing fast changes to tank that ATS can cause not fractions of DOC algae create, such as cresols. Of course hair algae growing on top of SPS will limit and kill off SPS. This should not be happening. It is not the same as manipulating a fillter to export algae.

I am a bit different here in that I would promote a hybrid system not a true ATS for SPS tanks. The algae will increase "microbes". Bacterial decay has a few pathways to humic substances that can color water or feed corals.

I prefer to skim lightly and don't use carbon. I do suspect some removal of bacteria increased from ATS is necessary. I have no proof other than a functioning system. I do small water changes too with a high quality salt. I have feather duster multiplying in sand bed to point of annoyance indicating large amount of food is present.

SPS tanks take 1-2 YEARS to mature as stable environments. Attributing die off in this break in period is misleading to other hobbyists.

Feeding SPS is also important. I like Oyster Feast as mentioned here many times but also like H2O Coral Food and Rotifeast. H20 Coral Food stays in suspension well and gets strong feeding response of acans.

I am letting my current version of tank mature and will report back or have some kind of photo album available. Saw one coral on MudShark here I would like to identify and get. Other than that I am fairly content with system.

[SantaMonica]

The algae somehow increase the number of microbes that are DAMAGING to SPS coral.

No they don't. Otherwise everybody who ran scrubbers would not have sps. And, there would be no sps in the ocean, since the water is packed with phytoplankton (algae).


The coral dies, and does not grow bigger

No, they don't die. And yes, they get bigger. You need to read more.


Microbes liking algae makes sense to me. How they turn-bad, or overwhelm the coral, no idea.

That's because they don't. Don't you know that microbes and viruses are in the ocean, in quantities of millions per ml ? That's millions of microbes and viruses, in one milliliter of seawater. And bacteria in the ocean gets as high as 10 million per ml. Yes, 10 million bacteria in one milliliter of seawater. Corals, including sps, already know how do deal with these things. Eating them is one way.


But if you eliminate those microbes, using antibiotics, the coral is happy again.

You are wrong. Where are you getting this information? If you "eliminated" the microbes in your water, all your corals would die. What do you think they eat for nitrogen?


If you add a lot of carbon, it seems to absorb these chemicals, and all is well.

All is not well. You just removed the protein, vitamins, and amino acids that the acro's needed. However, you may have weak lights, which will shine a bit stronger (especially the U.V.) with the GAC in the water.


I do not pretend to know the mechanism, and even the authors do not.

You have to stop looking a one "study". That why I gave you the girl-water example. It's one "study", and does not mean anything to anyone. Do some reading on Reefbase:

http://www.reefbase.org/resource_center ... /main.aspx (http://www.reefbase.org/resource_center/publication/main.aspx)


From what I read/hear, it appears to be specific to SPS. Most LPS do not have this problem.

LPS don't need a lot of light, or need a lot of food particles in the water. Both of these things are harder for people to do, so they tend to not get done.


And as I think I mentioned, I do have LPS now that is quite happy.

Because LPS need less light, and less food particles in the water.


Regarding studies and lack of citations: Yes, that was a problem.
Go here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed Search for: algae effect on coral
Even without an account, the summaries are pretty good.

No, you are not going to get away with that here. Post the exact study, and the exact text (quote) from the study, showing that it was exactly the algae that caused the original "problem". Yes, you'll need to actually read the studies to do this; not just look at the titles. The problem is, you don't know what the titles even mean when you read them. Plus you did not even post any. Don't you think I've read studies on that site? I regularly read 20 different sites, and pay full price for the articles. I read and take notes on about 3 studies every day. So after you have read the (any) studies, and posted the quote(s) from the studies, along with the titles and links of the studies, then you'll be in a position to start understanding what you are saying.


If there are hundreds of success stories, can you please link to at least one.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8)

...and these are just from my threads, from the general reef sites. Most people don't post on my threads, however, and I don't even read the local and niche sites. I have a list of over 100 sites that I don't have time to get to, all of which have people running scrubbers.


Having a skimmer is fine. Moderate water changes are fine.

Yes, if you want to remove food from the water and have slower coral growth. Remember that on reefs there are no skimmers, and (practically) no water changes. It's all done by algae and recycling.


But all I see is one small Acropora that is really rather funky looking, and not in a good way.

And you missed the part of it being stung, eaten, and under 150 watts. That's why I keep it, to see how much food is required to make up for these things. You are reading these things, right? They are in English, and you seem to type good English.


Digitata seems to grow, but hard to tell if it supposed to be brown.

Was brown when I got it.


That south african tank looks great. But at 15% water changes per week, he could probably ditch all the filtration and not notice.

Hardly. People who feed any real amount of food at all say that even with 30 percent changes, and a skimmer, they still have nutrient problems until they add a scrubber.


I have seen some other ATS+SPS, but never any with no carbon.

Do a web search, and read the other forums.

[piratefish]

Very good to hear!! :D
You should add some quick pics to the success pages.
Double checking - not running carbon, correct?

No I am not running carbon.

The only thing on my tank from the start was the scrubber. No sock,Floss, skimmer,or any other type of filtration. I dose Bionic 2 part and Mag.

[Vannpytt]

Picture? :D

[piratefish]

I will try to get pics up this coming week. My tank is at my office not in my house, Its a long story please don't ask :shock:

My camera is not great but i will do my best.

[rygh]

Great responses with the real experiences. :!:
Many thanks.
It is making me feel a whole lot better about it.
And the more I look at how those studies about algae differ from the way an ATS works, the less I see the direct link.

SantaMonica:
I am probably not being clear enough about the science of the concern, since your responses don't
exactly match what I was trying to say, but don't worry about it.
I was looking more for responses on real experiences with SPS + ATS anyway.
And you/others have given that. Hope there are more.
The main reason I did not spend a ton of time properly citing references is that I
was deliberately trying to not write an "attack" thread trying to PROVE ATS will kill SPS.
I was asking, not accusing, and just passing along the premise on the cause.

[SantaMonica]

By the way, for the one experiment where they put one coral and one piece of algae in a tank, and the coral dies, this is because they have eliminated all the bacteria that is part of a normal tank (and part of a normal reef). It's the bacteria which eats the exudates. It would be the same as removing a fish from your reef and putting him in a box of water, and wondering why he died (no bacteria to eat the ammonia).