Help on my design/idea

[spideybry]

Hi all, I have been reading information on this site for the past week. When I first found the site, I was actually just browsing the web looking for remedies for bryopsis/hair algae. I found this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68 (http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68) and I read the entire thing lol. I was actually up till around 4 am reading about it.

Any way, a little about myself/setup. I live in Philadelphia and operate a forum with a few locals which has grown to about 1500 people :D (hopefully someone can hop over there and give some info ;) ). I have been in the hobby for around 3 years now. Started with a 55g reef, then upgraded to a 75g reef. I tried a frag tank when I had the 55g tank set up, and failed due to extremely high HA. I then had to break that down. Taking care of two individual systems is rough when you work full time and come home beat -_-. Any way, I digress.

My latest frag tank is a 40g (30x24x12) with a 20g long and a 29g sump. It has been plagued with HA/bryopsis for a while. Since it was bare bottom I would get a crazy amount of algae growing on the bottom and sides. It got to a point where I almost broke down the tank.

Any way I scraped it all, tried running Seachem Phosguard. Algae seemed to turn grey. I started feeding again for the frags in there, and the algae is already on its way back and bright green. This seems to be my last option, since a few of my frags are infested, I have them separated before they infect the rest of the other frags, but with the frags sitting on the bottom, I see them getting creeped up again.

So here is my area to work with, I have a couple options so I am debating on how I will set it up.
(please try to ignore the ginormous firehazard.... I kind of have it rigged that way because of a new LED fixture I have with cables that are too short.) The ATO is on the bottom right (lip of the bucket)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/3bc4c3fb.jpg

One option would be to take the overflow pipe, and convert it to the ATS. It would work, I could get a good 13" out of it width wise, and around 7" height, but it would most likely be one sided. (here is the one pic of how it could work) My only thing is that I have a Mag5 (500gph, split between two tanks. My guess is I am getting maybe 150gph out of the return, which wouldn't be enough I think.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/847fcbe9.jpg

Another option, is to do the bucket method, but I am kind of stuck since I can't put it anywhere above the tank. An option would be to use a Mag5 pump (500gph) to build an in sump ATS, probably one sided. Finally I could man up and build a box lol... But my skills/money is a problem lol.

So guys, any input would be great.

[SantaMonica]

I say use the pipe like you are thinking of, with a separate pump, and two 23 watt CFL 2700K on each side.

[sklywag]

If you placed another 90 (elbow) where your hand is at perpendicular to it. That sump looks to be about 10-12 inches wide. Then the length down to water level looks to be at least 15-20 inches giving you 150+ sq. inches and room for lights on both sides.

[spideybry]

I think I am going to go with the separate pump. I probably would get the same sq. Inches either way. I will tentacles today.

I have all the parts minus the screen and new impeller for the pump. Hopefully I can get it up and running in a few days.

Thanks.

[sklywag]

And watch as the HA dissappears.

[spideybry]

I really hope so... Btw I may do it like you are saying since I may get the most bang for my buck. It is a standard 29g, so it has 12 3/4" in that area there. I could probably use about 10x10, and light both sides giving me 100" sq. That should be more than enough for this system.

Hey guys remind me if I am wrong, you don't want a scrubber too large correct, like going over kill on a tank isn't good when it comes to scrubber size. Just wanted to double check that.

I picked up the screen from an arts n crafts store. It is 12x18, I will cut it down to the right size soon. Now I all I need is a new impeller for the pump and I should be good to go. I already have all the plumbing parts I need, maybe too many, and I may be missing one piece to hook up the tube to a bigger size, since I am going from a 3/4" threaded female, to 1" male PVC, I need to figure out a way to hook it up and hang it.

I also need to get the clip on lights lol.

Rough enough?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/11c57ab6.jpg

[SantaMonica]

The roughness looks good. The more the holes are closed-in, the rougher it is.

However for a 10 X 10 screen, you need at least 50 total watts... 25 on each side. You can't have a scrubber "too big" for a tank, but you can have a screen too big for the lights. If the screen is too big, parts of the screen will have weak light, and this will not help with filtering. A 10 X 10 screen really needs a 33 watt CFL on each side. And best would be two 23 watts on each side.

You are probably fine with a 6 X 6, and a 23 watt on each side, about 4" away. This will cover most of the screen, and take less space, and filter just as much.

[spideybry]

That sounds good, I just need to get the lights. I am thinking those clip on ones with the big reflector? Then get some CFL screw in bulbs and I should be good right?

[SantaMonica]

Yes, curly-Q spiral bulbs.... not spotlights.

[spideybry]

These right?
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg202/donkondra/Article%20pictures/Bulbcomparison.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Yes...

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/CFLbulbs.jpg

[spideybry]

Lol gotcha. Those were the ones I was referring to. Any tips for cutting the pipe for the inlet of the screen aside from making it small first then enlarge if necessary?

[spideybry]

Hey guys, I started putting together the scrubber. Got the impeller and most if not all the parts I need. I also finished the other side of the screen and it is nice and rough. I just need the lights and I am good to go.

I rearranged the sump area a bit piping wise. Now the return is PVC completely to the sump. (has a few leaks but I will fix those soon enough)

I am looking at using a 7.5"x10" scrubber. Should be enough for the system. Thoughts?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/6b3608b2.jpg

Also here is an idea for the structure of the scrubber.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/Untitled-1.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Looks good. You could put up to a 42 watt bulb on each side, with a big reflector.

One thing about frag tanks, is that you want to be able to feed as much as possible. You can't over feed corals (they can eat as much as you can feed), so the limitation is how strong your scrubber is.

[spideybry]

Hmm I am barely feeing atm, to try and keep nutrients down to contol the algae.

Should I make an emergency overflow part into it in case it backs up? Or just endcap it and control it with the ball valve.

Once I get the nutriets down a bit I will start feeding again.

[new2scrub]

yes them:) don't forget a pipe union so you can remove the screen for cleaning,,hate to see you get it all glued up and not have any way to remove the screen!

[SantaMonica]

Endcap.

[spideybry]

Rough enough?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/5fe6cf44.jpg

Here is the pipe work. I think I need to rig something up to support the weight of it though.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/9157886e.jpg

My new lights lol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/ccc8fe17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/d4a5943c.jpg

[Vannpytt]

Good job!

[SantaMonica]

Screen is good.

Bulbs looks small... what is the wattage.

[spideybry]

Says 40w and 2700k.

[SantaMonica]

No... those are 10 watts. Equivalent watts do not count. They are way too small and will not work. Get 42 real watts, which are about 180 equivalent watts.

[spideybry]

Where does it say that on the box? Just curious.

Edit: I am guessing right on the bulb? And on the top left corner where it says using only 10 watts?

[SantaMonica]

Yes

[spideybry]

Hey guys, here is the scrubber up and running. I think it has too many leaks, I will try to fix it soon. But as of right now it isn't harming anything since it is dripping into the sump. The flow seems perfect on one side, nice even water, but on the other it seems like it is dryer. Maybe I need to widen the hole for the inlet?

Here is the vid :D
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/ ... 01f0a6.mp4 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/?action=view&current=6f01f0a6.mp4)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/a4fc94f0.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Move the bulbs closer.

[spideybry]

Any closer I will get splash back. Could that be a problem?

[new2scrub]

glue the pipe so there is no more leaks but first make sure that the slot is 1/8" wide and remove any burrs from machining the slot,then move reflectors about 1" closer there should not be much in the way of slashing at first but as the algae grows into the slot it will cause water to spurt out,in witch case you will need to protect the lights using acrylic or glass sheets

[SantaMonica]

Also you can silicone the bulb socket. Then just cut it out with a razor to replace.

[spideybry]

Ok, so opened up and glued the rest of the pipes, as well as moved the lights closer. I am kind of worried that the section highlighted isn't getting enough flow. I widened the area, and even made the gap more open to accommodate the flow but nothing. Any ideas?

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/ ... a4f577.mp4 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/?action=view&current=7da4f577.mp4)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/8bddf201-1.jpg

[SantaMonica]

It should fill-in as it grows.

[spideybry]

Do you recommend purchasing a small piece of turf and growing that out to speed up the process? Or should I just wait it out. I put some small strands of the algae I have in the system on the canvas, hopefully I get something out of that.

Thanks again btw.

[SantaMonica]

No need to see it... it just falls off anyway.

[spideybry]

This is it finished, glued and lights moved closer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/359862dc.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Very good.

[spideybry]

Now if I am not seeing any growth, should I be feeding to spike ammonia/phosphates?

[SantaMonica]

No.

[spideybry]

One more question, I noticed a lot of people have drilled small holes on the outlet side of the pipe where the water comes out to go down the screen, is this necessary? I am just afraid of clogging.

[spideybry]

Bump? Also I am expecting light brown growth atm right? Well, not light brown growth, but a film correct?

[SantaMonica]

Holes should not be needed.

Film is correct.

[spideybry]

So here it is up and running for a week now. Here are the results of the 1st week of production. The end that sticks in the water seems to have a lot more color on it. Is this normal? I also took it apart and cleaned it Wed. Any input?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/750b2ad8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/b3ef060f.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Looks fine. Your light is not too strong, but is still an ok start.

[spideybry]

I returned the 23w ones and put on 40w CFLs, should that be enough to grow good algae?

[SantaMonica]

With big reflectors, yes.

[spideybry]

Ok good news and bad. I have some cool looking growth. I am cleaning and doing maintenance, and I feel a shock... Turns out the pump I was using to feed the scrubber started putting electric current into the water....

Until I get another pump, which is going to be tomorrow, I have the screen sitting in the tank. Is this ok? Any help please.... -_- Will it be ok until tomorrow?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/598e3dee.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/ebad5373.jpg

[piratefish]

Should be fine as long as its in the water

[chrissu]

Should be fine as long as its in the water


+1. It will be fine if in the water.

[spideybry]

Scrubber is still going strong. It has little pockets of green hair algae growing on it which I hope is a good sign.

I am also noticing that I am getting Cyano in the tank. Is this a usual step in the process of removing the nuisance algae from the DT? It may be attributed to using Oyster Feast, like I read in another thread on the site, since it is a liquid. Any input?

[SantaMonica]

Yes liquid food appears to cause cyano much quicker than regular solid food, since it's immediately available to the cyano before it even reaches the scrubber. You can minimize this by high flow from the display to the scrubber, so it gets there right away.

Of course, if your display is full of fast growing corals, it probably won't matter.

[spideybry]

Well the display is a frag tank. I am trying to find a good micron sized food for the sps that isn't a liquid. I guess I could add another Koralia in there that I have sitting around but idk if it will solve the problem.

[iggy]

I had some success with discontinuing liquid food however this article discusses that ATS and vodka systems are prone to cyano due to low nitrates. It suggests other algaes will be limited at some point allowing cyano to compete.

http://www.burgerszoo.eu/over-burgers-zoo/coral-husbandry/table-of-contents?ce=1

Freshwater vascular plants are well known to have blue green algae when plant growth is nitrate limited. However planted tanks can tolerate nitrates far better than delicate SPS of course. I am in process of experimenting using same techniques as SEARS COLLINS 1994. His method involved doing the following to rid BGA (cyano).
- add iron gluconate for two weeks to make growth phosphate limited. Freshwater tanks are 0.1 ppm
- add potassium sulfate to 15-30 ppm and raise nitrates with potassium nitrate to 5-10 ppm.
As long as hardness and lighting is correct and substrate is not disturbed it usually works.

I have read of people using zeovit system and adding 1-2 ppm nitrate back to add nutrients for growth and cyano control. Potassium would target 380 ppm and very difficult to measure.

[spideybry]

That is interesting. Problem is I am not running a Zeo system/Vodka system. I wonder if adding the sulfate and nitrate will help the issue. Since it is a frag tank I am bare-bottom, so substrate is not an issue.

For the last two days I have stopped feeding the oyster feast/amino acid supplement to see if it makes a difference. Though from what you are saying adding nitrate can help control in low nutrient systems, so maybe I am going in the wrong direction?

[spideybry]

Here was growth today. I think the flow I am getting on one side is more than the other :/ I need to figure out a way to even it out a bit.
Cyano is getting worse despite not feeding. Suggestions?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/b89486ff.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/6bae1611.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Yes more flow would help the top grow as much as the bottom. But it will even-out as growth happens.

Any cyano now is just because less algae for competition. Will go away later.

[palmer373]

what pump are you using?

[spideybry]

It was a Mag5, but I have a no name brand Catalina Aquariums pump when the other one decided to put electric current into the water. I haven't been able to do anything other than that. I am also gonna revise the design a bit for more even water flow, and I plan on fixing it since it spurts every where. It actually shorted one of my lights and the light wont work any more. So idk what imma do lol.

I fell down the steps on Wed and messed up my ankle and knee so things have been rough since I can't get to the basement. I will keep you posted.

[spideybry]

So here is a little progress shot on the scrubber. So far I think it is making somewhat of a difference. I notice that the cyano is still there in the tank. The hair algae is also still present on the glass and a couple frags, but tufts of it just float off once u wave by it. It is hard to get a good color presentation in the pics so I took 3 different ones.

I noticed the algae on the bottom that is a bit browner is harder to scrape off, needs finger nails. It seems as if I am getting better growth on the bottom area which is getting hit with less light which is odd, but maybe getting more flow. Input?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/c87dd543.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/49892f58.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/c6b0d3c9.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Looks like you are not turning the lights off.

[spideybry]

I am, 16 hours on, 4 off. Should I lighten that? Keep in mind I don't feed much. I am having trouble finding cubes with good micron size for corals since there is only 2 fish in the 70g system. A pseudo chromis, and a strawberry dottyback.

[SantaMonica]

6 hours off.

[spideybry]

Hey, so apparently my clock was a bit off. I was running t for 3 hours off in a day. The dial must have fallen on te floor an it pushed in the knobs and my photo period was thrown off. Good catch btw ;)

Thanks.

[spideybry]

So here was my growth as of last night before I cleaned. One side is using a smaller bulb because I haven't been able to get a new one since the other one shorted out. I only cleaned half the screen.

Input?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/0b5b25d6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/79e61244.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/2720a90b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/1855e7ae.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Definitely need more flow/iron to compensate for the strong light.

[spideybry]

Sounds good, I did bump the flow since it looked a bit yellowish. I am afraid if i bump it any more it will spurt everywhere tho.

I will add some iron.

[spideybry]

Thoughts on getting more growth?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/a55f0454.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/95187b07.jpg

This is after I cleaned it btw. Note, I left the patches of what looks like tufts of green turf or GHA hoping it spreads.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/820b8639.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Bald spots are caused by too much light relative to how much iron the algae is getting. The more light that algae gets, the more iron it needs too. CFL bulbs tend to make bald spots because all the light is concentrated in one spot, while the edges of the screen don't get enough light. Aside from switching to T5HO bulbs, here are your options from best to worst:

1. Get more flow. This will deliver more iron to the algae and let it grow again in the bald spot. Your screen needs to be very rough, however, to hold on to the algae in the higher flow.

2. Add iron, such as Kent's Iron+Manganese, per the instructions.

3. If adding iron did not fix it, and you can't increase flow, then reduce the number of ON hours. Reducing hours is always preferable to using smaller bulbs, or increasing the bulb distance.

4. If you get down to 14 hours ON, and the burn spot is still there, then you'll have to move the bulbs further away, or get smaller bulbs.

[spideybry]

I have been dosing iron for the past week.

I can open the ball valve all the way, but then the chamber that the pump is in almost goes dry since I have the pump in the first chamber of my sump and drains over the middle chamber. Seems the pump is actually stronger than my return pump lol.

I may lighten up the time ON to 14 hours like you said. I will see what happens.

On a side note, I got the acrylic for the scrubber :D

[spideybry]

Ok so here is an updated shot. I have been dosing iron, also moved the light back a bit, and bumped up the flow a bit. One of the bulbs cracked and one side went without light for a few days.

Any input?

First two shots are the side that had no bulb, looks like hair algae to me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/fcc67cfb.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/fab2e9b2.jpg

Here is the side with light.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/9cd52004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/afc26990.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Algae is still burning. Needs stronger flow. If you can't increase flow, reducing lighing by 2 hours.

[spideybry]

Will do.

[spideybry]

Screen is growing well now. I actually put it inside my 20l tank that you see in the 3rd picture. It is doing well since I have been able to bump the to max flow, I am definitely getting patches/strands of GHA :) The tank still has some patches of cyano, and HA on the walls, the snails are eating it up though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/19b99a8b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/580f5649.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/f1d65c0a.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Are you removing the screen and cleaning the slot? Need to get that flow even across the screen.

[spideybry]

I am, but it is just too much flow so it shoots down at an angle which is why you see the cross marks of where the water was going down.

[spideybry]

I am getting way more growth now that I opened up the throttle on my pump. I moved the entire scrubber to a 20l and it is in there so it doesnt matter how much flow I put through the scrubber :) I will post pics of the growth. I am getting a bunch of GHA all over the screen now.

[spideybry]

Here is the screen now. Still have cyano in the tank though :/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/b21cc105.jpg

[SantaMonica]

You are still burning the middle.

[spideybry]

I moved the lights off to the side a bit so it is more at an angle. Let's see how it does.