kcress's Turf Scrubber build.

[kcress]

Greetings!
I'm finally getting my act slowly together.

I'm building a TS that is entirely LED based.

I started initially building a variant of SM's 3G. There are so many technical issues with that style design that it rapidly became unwieldy. The biggest single issue is getting electrical power into the screen itself and then having this connection require a connect/disconnect plug that wouldn't get contaminated in handling and washing the lit-screen once a week. That is a real problem. Also any LEDs used have no opportunity to expand their light patterns. You need about an 1-1/2" for 30 degree LEDs to expand to a reasonable spot size.

My design is two fairly dense walls of LEDs I've selected, out of hundreds, for their brightness and wavelength. Each wall will have 132 alternating red and blue LEDs pointed inward at the central two sided screen. They will be spaced such that their light spots will mix at about 50/50.

The screen will be hung in the center. It has a handle to remove it like a cartridge. The entire unit will be made of acrylic. The screen itself is a 1/4" acrylic sheet. To provide grip for the turf there are over 200 slots routed in each face. These slots should provide a hold for the turf preventing complete removal during a cleaning.





Here's the screen:

[SantaMonica]

Looks like a great start! You should be able to get the LED's to within a 1/2" of the screen (although this might not be needed.)


These slots should provide a hold for the turf preventing complete removal during a cleaning.

They will certainly help, but still rough/scratch it up a lot. And you may still want to consider epoxying a screen onto it, depending on how well the holes work.

As for the previous G3 concerns:


The biggest single issue is getting electrical power into the screen itself and then having this connection require a connect/disconnect plug that wouldn't get contaminated in handling and washing the lit-screen once a week. That is a real problem.

One way I though of dealing with this is having the power come in from a permanent wire from the top. The wire would exit out of the water, to a connector that would be in dry air. The connector would thus be unplugged first, and then the screen would be free to be lifted out.


Also any LEDs used have no opportunity to expand their light patterns. You need about an 1-1/2" for 30 degree LEDs to expand to a reasonable spot size.

The LEDs I was looking at were either 90 or 120 degree ones. And with a diffuser/prism sheet on top of them, it should (have not tried it) be totally spread out.

[kcress]

Thanks SM.

Here's the next part. This is one of the two LED walls.

[SantaMonica]

What's the horizontal slots for?

How far will the LEDs be from the screen? Will you be diffusing/prisming them?

[kcress]

Been a change in plan. (Proto-types.. sheesh.)

The slots are/were for wiring the LED connections. The routed holes for the LEDs are all made horribly opaque by the machining process and there is no good way to return transparency. This opacity is blocking 50% of the LED's light.

I am mulling several alternatives. This panel was the inner wall and the LED panel all in one. This required at least 1/4" acrylic. Now I will replace this with a thinner inner face since it just needs to be waterproof. I will make a box on the back of this thin face that will hold the LED structure, (now just dropped in), and then backed with a glued on smoked rear cover to reduce light leakage.

The LED structure needed to hold them all in position will be either an engineering plastic or acrylic sheet machined to hold the LED leads for manual soldering or I will use a single sided sheet of copper cad laminate which I will route to hold each of the LEDs that can then be machine soldered in a conventional manner. This then will be dropped into the "acrylic box".

I'm checking on the price of the copper clad verses the labor/cost of an acrylic/engineeriing plastic design.


The LEDs will be about 2 inches from each face of the screen. The LEDs are about one inch apart in alternating colors. The spots they cast at 1-1/2" theoretically overlap about 95%. So the same blue and red mixture should uniformly cover the screen even if it grows out 1/2" from the face of the screen. My calculations show I need no diffusion or prismatic assist. But! If I do this new design change would make that very simple as I can drop the diffuser into the aforementioned "box" before the LED panel goes in. Everything added, of course, costs more $$ and every surface in between the LEDs and the turf reduces the photon energy at the turf by at least 5% so I would rather not add anything unless my theory is bad.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[SantaMonica]

This opacity is blocking 50% of the LED's light.

Maybe not. Maybe it's just diffusing greatly. After all the material (acrylic) has not changed. Even if melted, it does not become opaque; it just diffuses, as if you sanded it. It may actually be what you want.

As another alternative, how about reversing the LEDs so the leads go through the acrylic, but the lens shines out the open hole?


the same blue and red mixture should uniformly cover the screen even if it grows out 1/2" from the face of the screen

Remember that most grow lights use much more red than blue, I think about 5 to 1.


every surface in between the LEDs and the turf reduces the photon energy at the turf by at least 5% so I would rather not add anything unless my theory is bad.

If so it's another chance to design a G3 (with power out the top) :)

[diy]

I am mulling several alternatives. This panel was the inner wall and the LED panel all in one. This required at least 1/4" acrylic.

This is exactly what I working on doing right now. But I am using 110 superflux LEDs mounted on a standard circuit board. I made a mold 12x12" out of wood (making sure all corners are perfectly square. Sit the circuit board in the mold and pour a ultra clear poly resin in covering everything except the LED lens. Superflux LEDs are 1w high power 5mm LEDs, They are perfect for a application when you need the light source to be extremely close. They also have 120 degree viewing angle and they emit little to no heat. Also with all the searching I have done, I figured out ALGEA loves red more than any other color. I would do a 8:1 ratio.

Heres my layout. Good luck with you scrubber
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p93/ampy549/untitled1.jpg

[kcress]

SM; The opacity is blocking the light. If you hold up a white piece of paper 1-1/2 inches from the front, the light from this verses just holding he LED behind the clear acrylic is huge.

I want this LED panel really close I can't see how to use one in five blue and have it actually work. Not enough spreading distance. These red ones are very bright so I hope they'll be enough even 'diluted' by 50% blue.

The G3.. Think of plugging and unplugging some connector 60 times a year. Then having it flop around as you scrub the screens - water getting in it. Most connectors, (that never have salt and water splashed on them), are rated for about 100~200 plug in cycles. More than that and they start to fail.


diy; Aren't those 'superflux' LEDs four LEDs in series already? How can you put 8 of them in series and then still drive them with only 24V?

Hope you can shoot us a picture!

[SantaMonica]

I would imagine that waterproof marine connectors would be cheap and easy to find. It's only 12V or so, and hardly any current. Or, maybe there could be no connector at all, and the power just runs all the way to the supply. The user just needs to know to install it with enough free-length so he can get it to the sink.

By the way, shouldn't every setup be using an isolation transformer to prevent a possible short to 120V?

[diy]

diy; Aren't those 'superflux' LEDs four LEDs in series already? How can you put 8 of them in series and then still drive them with only 24V?

Hope you can shoot us a picture!

There will 13 strings of 8 LEDs in series. Then the strings will be connected in parallel, So far we are at 16 volts. Then I will run 2 strings of six LEDs in parallel. This puts me at 22volts. The illustration was done in the early design stage and I haven't bothered to change the schematic but, you get the idea, right?

I'll be sure to post a pic when Im finished. I just ordered everything so give me two weeks. Good luck with yours

[kcress]

SM; With respect to the connectors it's the scuffing of the mating surfaces in the plugging and unplugging. I will still be looking for a solution. 8-)
As for the transformer comment: Yes you need some sort of isolation between the wall outlet and your LEDs. Luckily the DC power supply needed usually provides this isolation.


diy; OK good. You know the drill.

[kcress]

I finally received the drills so I could continue with the fab of the LED panel.

Instead of hand bending and soldering a zillion LED leads together I went with a circuit board. But having a circuit board fabbed commercially, of this size, is cost prohibitive. So using a CNC router I scribed a single sided sheet of circuit board that has copper cladding on one side. Then I sicked the router on it to drill the 270 holes in the precisely needed locations.

This is what I started with:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/yo0ec5zj4k.JPG

This is what I did to it:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/xod1ftl7ti.JPG

This is the result:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vc8ilfk5ll.JPG

Now if the LEDs would show up..

[worley]

Nice job, oh to have access to a CnC machine =)

[kcress]

I finally got my LEDs. So I assembled a LED panel.

Here's a view of the front. This thing is exactly 12" tall and 9" wide.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/nzdyj7gyf1.JPG

The parts on the front are all soldered on the back side. (shown here)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/pfbudqtae4.JPG





Here it is fired up. It's runs on 12VDC and is drawing about 3/4 of an Amp.
It's impossible to get thru a digital camera the actual results as the camera sensor is badly overloaded. If you look at it straight on, you'll wish you hadn't. I am not real happy with the red LEDs. Remind me to not believe Lumex's data sheets anymore. Both colors were to have 60degree (total) angles. This equates to the beam patterns overlapping the adjacent LED's physical position. The blue Crees do just that, the red Lumex LEDs appear to be about half that spot size, meaning half the angle! I may want to make a change before I build the other side. I could be trying your 'diamond diffusor plate' yet, SantaMonica.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/u15aeda8sq.JPG

[SantaMonica]

Very nice. You used Cree's? Aren't those similar to the Superflux in that they are 1w each? Your panel is only pulling 9W total; not sure how that can be.

[zoa]

Very cool, Nice job :mrgreen: I'm green with envey

[kcress]

Hi Santa Monica.

You can't enclose a bunch 1W LEDs in acrylic and not expect a hot fire to soon occur. These are just obtainable 'gum drop' LEDs not unobtainable SuperFlux LEDs from Phillips. I spent a lot of time just trying to find some of those to see what their price was. It seems like Phillips just wants to brag about them not actually sell any. Maybe I looked in the wrong places though, as it gets confusing when big companies buy up all the little ones.

These LEDs just have about 23mA running thru them.

The blue are Cree the Red are not. I may be going to them. I may also be going to the 120degrees as they actually look pretty reasonable in cost and up the power a bit without a huge jump to the 'thermal trouble land'.

I think I'm going to complete my scrubber but just go with one side lighting and get this panel into use. I won't box in the light panels as that will allow me to alter them. If this panel obviously gets growth going quickly it may be fine as is. If it's lack-luster in its growing... I will change things. As a yardstick how soon do you see 'something' growing on a CFL lit screen?

[SantaMonica]

Visible by day 3, cleanable by day 7.

[kcress]

Reporting in SIR!

I have finished the construction. Learned a few things along the way too. I'm wondering about the flow "down the slot". I may need to modify the slot boards as seen from above.

I need a different power supply as the box of 30 wall warts I have wouldn't divulge a 12V, 1/2A unit. So I grabbed an old linear supply I ripped out of a tannery control system years ago and hooked it up. It had no labels so I'm not sure what it was rated for but it's getting far to warm for me to risk having in my living room.

Here it is. Note it's just one sided as I'm not going to build the other side's LED panel until I see this one actually perform acceptably.

I haven't resolved how to actually mount this beast either.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/rv2ra3ghif.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/z5azm8rml4.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ioe6x1xxtv.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/4ovin4unjz.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/xi76ea58bj.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/rk35hzffg1.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Very very nice!

[diy]

Wow, thats very nice. What are the dimensions and what size tank is it going on? What do you do by trade, if you don't mind me asking?

[kcress]

Hi diy;

This is for three 55gallon tanks that are 'jumped together' so it is 165g. They all have about 5" of crushed coral in them and that makes for bookoo nitrate production. My nitrates are over 1,000ppm. Presently I have only two large fish. A Yellow Tang and a large Angel of some sort(13years old). I also have a fist size cowry that is over 18 years old. Also 6trillion pods that generally keep my glass clean - better than any snail ever could.

I am half way thru building a new tank. I like c.coral and would like it in the new tank but it's a nitrate factory. If this TS can bring down the nitrate in my existing tank then I know I can use CC in my new set up.

This should be a good test as my present tanks are absolutely loaded with algae of every kind. It is rather like a giant fuge. The YT keeps his tank (the one he likes to hang in most) pretty picked clean but the other two are rampant jungles. The Angel is a major homebody and hasn't left the same tank for a decade,( likes his cinder block).

My biggest issue at the moment is how to actually utilize this TS as I have no sump whatsoever on this setup. I have a closed loop to keep the three tanks homogenized and to provide random waves. But the wave pump is far too large to run constantly ,(3/4hp). I have a Little Giant tapped off the same direct siphon that the waves are fed with (2") that draws from one end of the display 12ft long and returns to the far tank. I think I will be plumbing this to my TS and standing the TS up above this tank so it will be at eye level in my living room. LOL!

The TS is 15.5" tall, 11.75" wide, 6" thick.
The screen is about 10" x 13" It will be single sided until I know the LEDs, as-is, work well enough for me to build another LED panel. Otherwise I will have to alter the LED mix/model for improvement if needed.

I'm an Electrical Engineer.
FlaminSystems.com

[SantaMonica]

A response from a Mexican forum after seeing these LED pics: "its the first time that a company made an algae scrubber? or there are others before? if this has a good price, many people would prefers to purchase a new one. if not, people will try to do a copy of this."

[kcress]

Likes like fun SM. Got a link?

[SantaMonica]

http://www.all-reefs.com/inicio/showpos ... tcount=525 (http://www.all-reefs.com/inicio/showpost.php?p=89127&postcount=525)

[diy]

any updates?

[kcress]

Hi diy, thanks for asking.

I'm gonna put up a picture when I get it going. It's having some teething issues.

1) My original weir gap estimate was off by 60% on both sides, so the water just rushed out the gaps with hardly any hitting the screen. DOH!

2) The water coming in was splashing just enough that I need a top. (maybe a drip every 30 seconds bouncing out) doh!

3) My pump was really loud. Sounding like it had a piece of something rattling around in the volute. It's a Little Giant 1100gph 3-MDGX-SC. Too loud for a living room so I opened up the pump head and pulled out the impeller and the ceramic shaft. The sides of the impeller are all scratched up and the impeller is VERY loose on the ceramic shaft (one which I can find no wear sign). So I am thinking the hole thru the impeller is worn out. I can find no spec on the amount of play. I need to call them I guess.

4) I have modified the weirs and they are ready to go. But now my pump isn't.. <sigh> :(

[diy]

Sounds good, keep us updated. Is the little giant a little much for that size scrubber anyway.

[kcress]

The Little Giant wasn't a bit much, It was a lot much! I had it valved down to 40% since my head is only 20 inches.
I checked prices on a new impeller, shaft and thrust washers for a "maybe it will be substantially more quiet", rebuild. The price was a disgusting 90+ dollars!!

So today I ordered a new Poseidon PS2 silent pump for only a bit more $$.
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumP ... eidon.html (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~pumps_poseidon.html)
Everything else is ready to go. I hope it shows before Friday but I have my doubts.

Stay tuned.

[diy]

Very good choice. Those pumps are sooo quiet!

[zoa]

That pump looks awfully familiar. Looks just like the LAING that is in my hot tub. It is used for the 24/7 filtration.

http://www.lainginc.com/pages/spa.htm

Looks like the same to me. I am glade I saw this in your thread. Looks like I will be purchasing some posiden pumps for my tanks I am building. ;)
I can't imagine the posiden being any louder then the laing. If that is so, then yea it will be darn quiet.

[kcress]

Does look very similar!

Sounds like the LAING might be more efficient but it's not really clear. They don't look readily purchasable either. Bet it costs a bunch more.

My pump made it the local UPS center but not to my house. :(

Tomorrow!!

[zoa]

Yep, you would be right. Almost double the posidens. When I had to replace my circulation pump (this is how I know about them) I ran into a guy, through another guy, who services hot tubs and sold me the pump for 120 bucks. From the store they were about 240-300 bucks.

[kcress]

Well then you did get it for less! A lot less than I paid ~$170 incl tax and ship.

[kcress]

I finally got my pump straightened out. Marine Depot sent me a Poseidon PS4 labeled as a PS2(what I ordered). I decided to go with it. Wow what a nice pump. Truly silent even while pumping 6gpm. It actually has raised my three tanks temperature about 2 degrees F. Not an issue as my tanks have always hovered around 72F.

So the proto type is up and running!! "If you build it they will come" Least I hope the algae will come. These are shots of it running at night with only it lighting the area.

Keep in mind this unit is only one sided at this time and no dark covers are in place as I want 'tinker access'.
I am surprised by the splashing it causes even though the screen reaches an inch into the water. I had to whack out some little hanging barriers to prevent issues with the splashing. I hope the splashing will be gone once a turf is established. Of course this splashing is causing a lot of bubbles. On the other hand I could care less about bubbles, remember I have a wave generator that make huge white-outs of bubbles.

Points to note: The horizontal pipe at the rear is part of the wave system and even though it looks sort of related to the turf scrubber is isn't, as you will see in one of the picture angles.

Also this unit is mounted on one of my tanks generally considered to be the refugium even though it is on the exact same level as the other two tanks.

I am drawing water from the far right tank and delivering it to the scrubber mounted on the far left tank.

I must say the thing is pretty cool looking. A major source of conversation as it is mounted just below eye level. The blue LEDs are causing a lot of things in the room to fluoresce brightly like a black light. My living room is painted a rich orange cream color and lit only by the scrubber looks sort of blood red. (muwhahah). The color is actually c o m p l e t e l y indescribable in words.

So without further ado and in no particular order here we are:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/6khrqj41q9.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/4ac5vi7crm.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/06onoxgf3v.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/ypf0uqjjrp.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/bofyzdrubm.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/40433kto8v.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/xbd0r8219t.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/h95af2af5f.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/28yoq32sf6.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/ye4yr73ovd.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/upi4r2bo9h.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/nvg3fek0nt.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/8x1g3ge3yc.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/c73q0a7eh6.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/dycjfv8izk.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/kkfzoe3uvf.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Can't wait for the.............. growth :)

[kcress]

Well after a few days I see nothing much happening. I pulled the screen and rubbed algae all over it to 'seed it' as I never have before. While doing this I'm thinking "it's still too slippery smooth". So I took it to the shop and attacked it with a #40 grit grinding disk on a hi speed angle grinder. It's rough now! i did all of one side except a little upper corner area as a comparison. Then I rubbed algae on it again. It's back at it now.

[kcress]

Ok then... How long before something starts growing? I am starting to wonder. There was nothing after about 4 days. Then I removed the screen and scratched up the face three days ago. Nothing seems to be happening. I am running the light 24hrs on the theory that until there is something there, there is nothing being photo inhibited. Bad idea?

[SantaMonica]

Probably a better question for Snail, who was using a low-power LED panel too. Or maybe you can look at his earlier posts. Is your screen so scratched up that you can't see through it?

[kcress]

Negative. I was just starting to think maybe I need to really scratch it up. I would still think all those routered slots ought to be doing something.

[worley]

Might be worth trying some of the plastic canvas, nice and cheap and you can get it from most fabric/craft shops

[SantaMonica]

The slots will indeed work later, when there are big clumps of algae. Like Worley says, you could try laying some canvas over it.

[kcress]

How fast would typical CFL lit screen take to get obvious growth going on it?

[big-Ern]

First, your build looks awesome. I have wanted to do a LED version for some time and am watching closely to see how yours works out.

Since LEDs get a lot less light to the screen than the CFLs do, it seems like you should try to take advantage of all of the light you have.
I would suggest putting a silver reflective background film around the 3 non-led panel sides. This film could simply be taped on, allowing easy/clean removal for inspection.

Another suggestion would be to make a thin(maybe 2mm thick) sheet of plastic to fit over the leds. You would machine out holes for each LED so the sheet would slide over leds and sit on pcb surface. The top of the sheet would be close to LED die level. Paint the top of the plastic sheet with reflective paint or just put reflective film on it.

[kcress]

Thanks for the complement big-Ern!

I understand what you're saying. I will cogitate on it.

I really want to see something grow on here before a spend more time and $$ in this direction. While the light could possibly be better used, it is presently so bright that you can hardly look at it. If you get on the other side of the screen(non-lit side) and look you will be dazzled and have spots all over your field of vision.

Theoretically if there was turf there should not be a lot of reflected light worth spending money and materials to recoup with a reflector around the LEDs.

I'm thinking even if my color mix is not perfect (maybe too much blue) I should still be getting something growing under the red LEDs maybe a poka dot pattern of growth.

I am going to yank the screen and put a 100K deep scratches in it. Ones a phonograph needle would be proud of. :mrgreen:

[kcress]

I pulled the screen and attacked it with a 2 inch hole saw. Using just one edge of the saw I walked it all over the place. You couldn't read 2 inch letters thru it now. :shock:

I then rubbed a handful of algae on it. Back to the waiting game. :roll:

[big-Ern]

Can't wait for an update on your scrubber!
I looked through this thread for LED info, can you post it? vendor and part number

I really want to make an LED version but want to see a good working one first.

[kcress]

big-Ern and all other interested screeners - Hi.

Well... If you want a great working LED light you don't want this one as-is...
Granted I've essentially re-started it 3 times but I am not impressed with the growth - AT ALL! :evil:

Because nothing was happening I yanked the LED board and replaced a bunch of the blue LEDs with more of the red ones. The red LumexOpto (Part#SSL-LX5093SRC/E) while bright, are not as bright as the blue Cree's (Part# LC503FBL1-30P-A3). You will see one side of the light that has symmetric red/blue patterns the other side has large areas of red. I was hoping that I would see growth improve in the red squares demonstrating that the red, in slightly higher intensity, would do the trick. Nope.

Here is a shot of my TS taken as a reflection in a window.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/21ejei29f7.jpg

Here is a straight on shot with the camera stopped way down.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/jno7kdpurz.jpg


The color LEDs I have were chosen specifically because they emit near the center of the two plant growth spectrum peaks. So either there are some other colors that are missing from these LED's spectra, or they need to be vastly brighter. Perhaps 4 times as bright?

Unfortunately this is about $60 worth of LEDs you're looking at. 4x would be $220+ and that only gets one side of the screen lit up!! Plus a board, plus a power supply. For brighter I'd have to switch over to HPLEDs. These by themselves would probably be able to hit 4X brighter at about the same cost ~$60. Unfortunately they present some serious thermal issues avoided by the standard LEDs, like the ones I'm presently using. HPLEDs also have the issue of coverage being harder to get uniform because of the relatively few emitters.

Here is the miserable growth. Note the areas I circled. That's all I can see and because the surface is now so rough it's scary, I suspect some of this may just be algae that got pumped by after a wave cycle tore it out of my tank, and it got caught.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/lpctq2ofcx.jpg

My dilemma now is, what to do? Luckily my housing could support just about anything including any kind of CFL or T-whatevers. I'm getting temped.
I also wonder if some white is needed as the growing fluorescents have a broad spectrum even if they are better when tilted towards the red spectrum. Maybe the algae needs a little orange, or yellow, green... etc.

[SantaMonica]

How about this: Get a standard LED panel like this one:

http://shop.sunshine-systems.com/produc ... oductId=10 (http://shop.sunshine-systems.com/product.sc?productId=10)

... and remove the pcb (comes right out), and use it in place of yours. I really think your situation is just a lack of power. This board is 45W (although I still think this is too low).

[diy]

I agree with santa monica. I don't think there is enough power. Try the superflux LED's (http://cgi.ebay.com/100-PC-5mm-5-Chips-0-5W-Red-SuperFlux-LED-100mA-40Kmcd_W0QQitemZ280241845360QQihZ018QQcategoryZ669 54QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l12 62/). These are more powerful than the ones you are using. Defiantly use more red next time.

[kcress]

Yes I just came to that conclusion myself.
I have 0.022A x 10.5V x 33 = 8Watts over an area of 9.5x12" = 114sqin
That equates to about 10w/square foot.

Sunlight at noon is about 85W per square foot. If you throw out half that as being the wrong colors we would still want about 40W on a square foot.

I need about 4x more power. Dang.

diy; Those are absurdly over priced. $50+ for one LEDunit that's only a 1/2W?!? You can buy 1/2W LEDs for about $1.20.
But thanks for the link.

[big-Ern]

kcress,
Check the link again, Its 100pieces of the 1/2watt leds for $53 so 0.53 each with free shipping. Seems pretty reasonable. And they already have huge viewing angle so you can get them up closer to screen.

[diy]

Check the link again

[kcress]

The pages are all distorted!!
Oh yeah, I sure missed that! Makes more sense now. :oops:

I think I'll try some. Need to sort out which. They have a bazillion! :P

[Desktopflame]

I'm not even going to try to pretend that I understand electronics but how about these?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/45-LED-MOONLIGHTS ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/45-LED-MOONLIGHTS-4-ARCADIA-SERIES-3-4-METAL-HALIDE_W0QQitemZ190290938496QQihZ009QQcategoryZ463 14QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Just found them surfing ebay. Am very interested in gettin a scrubber going myself. Preferably with LED's and as I have no knowledge on electronics I would have to purchase ready made ones like those I have linked to. Would these be any good?

[worley]

Good idea, but nowhere near enough LEDs/light and expensive for the light output

[Desktopflame]

Good idea, but nowhere near enough LEDs/light and expensive for the light output

Oh well I was hoping I could buy a couple of sets of those for each side of the screen and that would be fine! I did say I don't know anything about electronics!
Would that still not be enough?

[kcress]

Yeah and the blue there isn't what you want a whole lot of anyway. My ineffective scrubber has a lot of blue now.. You need way more red than blue.

I am also coming to the conclusion that for leds you will want about 45W worth. This is no small amount. I could be off and 30W would do but until I try 40W and see the growth I can tell.

[kcress]

Instead of waiting to get a new LED setup going I'm switching to conventional. I just pointed three CFL at my screen. This way I can get some turf going will I get a new hotter LED panel built.

So I have (2) 19W CFL spotlights pressed up against the acrylic and one 29W curly-cue in a clamp-on about an 1inch from the plastic.

I'm tempted to point my 70W MH up against it.

BTW: On removing the LED panel it was evident that algae has started growing over the entire screen. So I think the LEDs will work if they just get brighter!.

[big-Ern]

kcress, sorry it didn't work for you. I was really hoping it would.

I think you had to be real close. I doubt that you need 40W/ft2. Did a quick light search so my data may be wrong but: sunlight at earth surface when sun at zenith and no clouds roughly 100W/ft2. Visible makes up 43% so 43W/ft2(almost dead on with your number). Red and blue make up small percentage of that so should be much less than 40W. Someone please correct me where I am wrong, I really want to know.

Side note. While some of the LEDs such as the ebay strips linked earlier may not be as bright as one would like to get 0 trates, would they not provide a good enough source in a tank with high trates? A tank loaded with trates will grow the algae almost on its own. And forcing it to grow in a place you can easily remove gets them out of your tank. Could bring trates way down. Once low enough the lower light combined with lower trates will make it difficult for algae to grow. But if it is going to grow in tank wouldn't it continue to grow in scrubber where light source is so much closer.
Obviously everyone would prefer zeros across the board but they could still be very usefull for someone looking to save on bulb/ballast replacement, water changes, and size.

[kcress]

Hey I heard you the first time!! :lol:


I'm glad your numbers are looking like mine. I wish it had worked the first time too. But like they say I haven't failed, I've just learned what won't work.

I think your speculation on trates seems pretty good too.

I'll be ordering phase-two LEDs today.

[SantaMonica]

From what I've seen, low power LED's like those strips do nothing for growth. There seems to be a threashold where there is no growth until the light gets more powerful.

[kcress]

I just bought some of the super-flux on Ebay.

Unfortunately the purchase page asked, "How many do you want?" I responded "100".

It responded, "Congratulations! You've just bought $6,000 dollars worth!" Sometimes I hate Ebay..

[big-Ern]

Wow, think you should be have enough power now.
I will repeat my suggestion about wrapping the other 3 sides in reflective film. It was probably cute seeing the color of 100 LEDs light up your room, but might be a little much with your new 10,000 LED scrubber. ;)

[worley]

lmao, send me the link, I want to see what you bought haha =)
I'm sure you can convince ebay it was a genuine mistake/error =)

[kcress]

About 30sec later I wrote them a letter saying, "wait a minute!!".

They sent me back a cancel the order link.

I'm back on track.

big-Ern; I will certainly need to cover this thing as it was just below, 'serious annoyance level', before.

[kcress]

Today I received my next batch of LEDs. Now I have to conjure up a new circuit board to hold them.
I ran one of the these new "superflux" LEDs. I was not overwhelmed.. However the 140 degree spread is so different from my original 30s that maybe that's why I'm underwhelmed. I need them all on a panel running to see the difference.

Presently I have a 13W CFL spiral bulb in a crummy clip-on and a 13W CFL flood light pointed at one side of my screen thru the acrylic window. And a second 13W CFL shining thru the opposite window onto the other side of the screen.

This is the results of three weeks. Note that the upper left corner is pretty much growth free. This is unscratched acrylic the rest has been greatly marred.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/i7kz9l78k4.jpg


This is the back with no marring - smooth. Note the major lack of growth on this side.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/2lbp8yfp80.jpg

This is a problem with boxed type scrubbers. Splatters result in growth on the windows.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/65hqa3rzf5.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/27htc9564u.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/zntvdllnvb.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/3gdlacs0ve.jpg

[worley]

I've been lucky with my original design, not getting any water splashing onto the thin panels of glass covering the lights, if I leave it too long without cleaning it would however, but never got any growth on the glass, I wonder if it was because it's smooth and would take a lot more water passing over for longer to attach to it?

[kcress]

It could be the dynamics of the water falling down my screen with the slots in it. It's very hard to look at and tell. As the water falls down the long vertical distance it gains speed and can splash easier I think.

[worley]

That makes sense as you have the most algae growth at the bottom of the scubber on the acrylic.
Have you tried the plastic canvas yet? As the mesh is thinner and holes are more shallow, so it shouldn't splash at all unless the slot on the pipe gets clogged

[kcress]

Here we are--- REV2 LED panel.

To review my first panel was growing algae but just wasn't powerful enough. So I have upped the radiated power.

This panel is about 5 times brighter than the last. I will pull the CFLs that were standing in and use this new panel.
This panel is also much MUCH redder than the last rendition. I am using the same blue style LEDs but the red ones are the "Super-Flux" units. Why are they so "super"? Each LED actually has five individual LED die in it. You can actually see them with a magnifying glass.

Here I'm routing the copper clad board to create the required circuit traces.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/fa2n8r7uyk.jpg

Here's the stuffed panel. A lot of soldering. 100 SFlux reds and 48 blues. Whew!

http://www.box.net/shared/static/lnbc8rdsbx.jpg

Here it is lit up. I'll post an installed picture when I get it in.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/pq5bs0soc6.jpg

[worley]

That's awesome, wish I had access to a nice CNC machine :D
Those LEDs look much better, I think the overall warmer colour temp with the extra reds should help quite a bit, shame the photo probably can't do the brightness justice. It' so hard to get realistic photos of lighting.

[SantaMonica]

What's the wattage now?

[kcress]

What's the wattage now?



That's awesome, wish I had access to a nice CNC machine :D

I could route something for you ... Shipping for something big would be insane though. Nything that can go into an envelope and US mail would probably be pretty reasonable.


Those LEDs look much better, I think the overall warmer colour temp with the extra reds should help quite a bit, shame the photo probably can't do the brightness justice. It' so hard to get realistic photos of lighting.

Yep crossing my fingers on the color.



What's the wattage now?

27W (with a higher efficiency LEDs) verses 7.5W (original)

[kcress]

Now instead of my living room walls being blood red from the original blueish LED panel, they are now a fabulous blazing hot fluorescent orange in the Fuchsia Light.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/rymmer2lnx.jpg

[worley]

GRRRROOOVY!
How's the light intensity/brightness looking compared to the CFL bulbs?

[kcress]

It's very hard to tell since the color is so intense and different from CFL. I can't really say.. I did take the CFL and point it at the turf at the same time the LEDs were on. I could not tell that there was any CFL light at all. No difference.

[worley]

So considerably brighter than the CFL, perfect =).
Of course, don't forget to put the LEDs on a timer if you haven't already, gotta give the algae a rest! ;-)

[kcress]

I'm the timer. Off when I go to bed on when I get up. :lol:

[worley]

:lol: , algae can get stressed like corals, so do get a cheap timer for it as regular hours will help the growth as with anything else.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

for some reason I can't see the pictures on this thread.

any ideas why?

[kcress]

None of them?? They are put up in different ways so I'd be amazed to hear none of them are showing for you.

Do you see pictures on other threads?

Sometimes a picture server is slow and the result is it appears they never show. But if you stayed on the thread for a minute or so they finally show up.

[Rumpy Pumpy]

I can see the ones on page one of this thread but no others.

I've not noticed any missing pics on other threads.

Very strange.

[kcress]

Here's my lit side screen pre cleaning.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/69vhxopzxa.jpg

I used a credit card to scrap it off (Capital One) and was a bit depressed by how much comes off. The acrylic even roughed up is just toooooo slick I'm afraid.

About 1/2 of it was covered with this bulbous grassy stuff. Is this the desired turf?

http://www.box.net/shared/static/80kr5xei0z.jpg

[Rumpy Pumpy]

You could try covering the screen with some sort of canvas.


I can see the pictrues now by the way. For some reason ZoneAlarm was blocking your picture hoster.

[SantaMonica]

That's not bad. It's dark, so clean it often.

[Jay1st]

Hi Kcress,


Just an idea, as I like your design.....

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/download/file.php?id=69

If you use your own router, what about making one for me and sending by post ?
I'll paypal you......

[kcress]

Thanks SM.

Jay1st; PM me and we can discuss it in more detail.

You want to provide lighting yourself? Etc.

[kcress]

Here is an example of an acrylic screen.
After roughing it up tremendously I still have a 'hold on' problem.

Here you can see that it takes a bit to scrap the turf enough for anything to happen and once you do, it's fully shed. Very annoying!

I believe the best screen would be something like organic carpet backing so the the algae can send it's holding filaments into the organic matrix. If this theory is true materials like acrylic alone would never be adequate as there is no underlying micro porosity for the algae to work with. This goes for any plastic type material.

The screen:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/moc373skh8.jpg

A close up. The turf is about 3/4" thick.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/d0zftph5oo.jpg


On the up-side my LED panel is clearly doing the job! I must have got the color balance correct as this is just a week's growth.

;)

[kcress]

Just an update.

My system was growing turf quite rapidly. I was starting to see a shift in my hair algae population in my main tank.

As I went to pull my screen for its weekly, the weir shaved off 70% of the turf which all fell into my tank. :x
See the pictures above? That's what happened but over most the screen. Acrylic is just impossible to get porous enough to allow a good hold for the turf.

I've taken it down and will be converting it to a horizontal unit.

I'm making a special ceramic tray in an attempt to mimic a good ocean turf surface.

[SantaMonica]

For a quick fix, just epoxy a sheet of rug canvas to each side of the acrylic.

[ocean rock]

hi kcress , wht dont you start to sell your led lighting rig and with the canvas plastic screens i think this would make a brillant ATS ,

[kcress]

Hello ocean rock!

With SM's help I've have come to understand this whole thing more. Especially, our increasing understanding of hyper nutrient tanks and their resulting non-hair algae growth patterns. This is badly skewing my results. I think my algae isn't growing fast enough.. And it's not, because, it's not even the same type!!. Mine is 3D "plants" not hair algae.

Until I can get some classical turf going I'm leery about selling something to someone when I can't say I've even 'seen the system work'.

Continuing, I need a less expensive LED system. The second panel build was probably $200. And 4 hours. I think I could do it for substantially less now but need to prove it out. The actual housing you see was about $100 in parts alone and about 5 hours of work. That could be paired down with a little work. If I get satisfied with something I will be happy to provide it to others.

[ocean rock]

sounds good m8 please keep at it , iam in the same boat struggling to produce proper turf algae ,

[kcress]

We shall slog on together! :mrgreen:

I'm considering is setting up my scrubber to recirculate. That way it can run in its sweet spot of normal nutrient levels even though the display is hyper loaded. Then as the display comes down slowly increase the mixing ratio until, theoretically, I'm running 100% main tank.

[SantaMonica]

That's a very interesting way to do it. Worley had the only recirculating version so far, but for a different reason. It would indeed work, but I wonder if the complexity is worth the cure, especially if someone who has not built a scrubber yet could just "go bigger" to start with.

Then again, most all the folks that stay "dark green or dark brown" end up solving all the problems that they wanted to solve. But certainly, for a non-pulsed scrubber, fine-tuning to get things to bright green is surely an advanced way of getting the most scrubber per unit size.

[kcress]

Thanks for the input SM. I need to figure out how to pull it off in a clean manner. You're right if it's cumbersome then it's like having to build two different units.

I calculate with my 1000ppm of nitrates it would cost me hundreds of dollars to reduce it using other methods.
If I build a huge unit it still tries to start with wildly excessive nitrates so I never even get hair algae dark or otherwise!

If I start the TS sized appropriately for my size tank, with a recirc system, I could mix a ten to one mix of fresh saltwater and then run that in the recirc loop until the green is in.


I need to think about this.

[ocean rock]

hi kcress can u post a pic of your tank and the scubber your using at the mo intrested to see both , thank oc

[kcress]

Ocean; Here's a tour of the "lab".

This is the three tanks chained together. Note that you need to expand your view of this forum as wide as you can get it because for some reason it wastes a huge area to the right.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/mluhrvxiqo.jpg

This is a hair algae closeup of the middle tank FugeB. There is none in the right hand tank, as the Tang keeps it weeded.
Note the pink calciferous algae starting. That has just appeared since I started with my TS experiments.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/c0cmejvy16.jpg

This is a closeup shot of the left tank, FugeA. More hair!
The green thing is another ceramic turf screen that's being pickled.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/pqxl3zrjnc.jpg

This is a full shot of FugeA. Note my TS pump which draws from the far end of the far right tank.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/a8afdcdskx.jpg

This is a shot of an algal island. I have several. I fish them out regularly.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/pkcf8km822.jpg

Here's view of my screen. There are at least seven types of algae on it. None of them are hair algae. Note the lump between the two nozzles? That is actually HARD. Really strange. Tapping on it feels like a loaf of bread just pulled from the oven.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/vl1p3d8jrj.jpg

Here I just cleaned it by scraping off everything I could. Going for the light green hair again.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/mrm41emky8.jpg

[kcress]

Also..
I have figured out how to run a recirculation system in my particular setup. I've purchased all the pipe, fittings, and a container to implement it. I've glued the pipes together and need to put it in. It's out on the porch being purged by a wind storm. I also have to get my old circulation pump going because my tanks need end to end circulation to stay healthy and homogenized.

Later today when I have it installed I'll put up pictures and we'll be shooting for light green hair.

[ocean rock]

hi kcress , FASANATING , is the display tank a hole in the wall , how many gallons you got all together , do u only run a ats , sorry for all the question but iam very interested

[kcress]

In a hole? No. See the first picture in my last post. Three 55s sitting on a stand in front of the wall. No sump. Filtering is only archaic under gravel filtering and some live rocks.

[kcress]

Here's my recirc setup. I have floated a four gallon container under my scrubbers outlet/drain. I then modded the suction line from the right end of the right tank. That suction is disconnected and a new one is now drawing all water from inside the four gallon container. Now all the water leaves the four gallon - heads into the pump suction - leaves the pump thru a throttling valve - feeds the manifold - is directed onto the screen - returns to the four gallon.

As the nitrates drop in the four gallon I will exchange some water with the main tank. If everything comes together and I get the bright green algae I will start drawing some small percentage of water from the main tank. It would be only a few percent.

As the main tank comes down in nitrates I will increase the mixing until the main tank has been re-mediated and can run 100%.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/g06olmm1sy.jpg

Here is my starting nitrate level! This is lower than I've had so my just modded scrubber was doing something! Remember my nitrates were 1000ppm.
Please note that this reading you're looking at must be multiplied by 5 because this test was run on a 5 to 1 dilution of the tank water.
This means my starting nitrates are a little higher than 100ppm. We shall see!

http://www.box.net/shared/static/je9a0u2862.jpg

Here is a top down view. You can see the floating container and the tee I will be using for mixing eventually. Note that I also swapped out the screen to the one that was pickling for the one I cleaned yesterday. The bright green is not the hair algae we want. It is some unicellular stuff that established itself on the screen in still water. It probably denotes that there are minirals on the ceramic that that green algae loves. Anyway, we're on the way! Sit down and hang on!!

http://www.box.net/shared/static/5vn7s3qkqt.jpg

[ocean rock]

right m8 , get that now , it looks a lot more efficient to my ats , iam not getting the green stuff at all , so iam planing on a re make , i dont think my return pump is big enough to run the screen on full throttle as it comes from the over flow pipes on a durso , if i open the value too much it empties the weir chamber and its hard to balance at the mo iam just running 1 ocean runner 6500 which does 6,500 lts , iam going to renew it with a laguna pond pump that does 16,000lts per hour , iam also running a reef flush that is stopping some of the flow " i think " my over flow pipes are 32mm which put down alot of water so iam going to lengthen the scrubber screen , at the mo its 10 x 8 double sided , looking to make it about 15 x 8 , double sided , x 2 . so ive a bit to do i need to get the turf growing or might have to look at other filtration methods ?

[kcress]

Have you got a number for your nitrates?

[ocean rock]

hi kress here a water test that was do a few months ago
heres my tank test results as done by muzzy
Parameter Recommended
Marine Tank Levels Typical Ocean Levels Your Tank
Parameters
Salinity 35 ppt 35 ppt 35 ppt
Alkalinity 8 to 10 DKH 7 DKH 8.0 DKH
Calcium 390 to 450 ppm 420 ppm 410 ppm
Magnesium 1250 to 1400 ppm 1280 ppm 1275 ppm
pH 7.90 to 8.40 8.30 8.10
Ammonia 0 ppm 0 ppm 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm 0 ppm 0 ppm
Nitrate 0 ppm 0 ppm 2.5 ppm
Phosphate 0 to 0.03 ppm 0 ppm 0.11 ppm

[kcress]

Your nitrates are so low now!! I'm not sure you will be able to establish a screen.

What do you think SM?

[SantaMonica]

Oh yes. A screen can grow well with no numbers at all.

[ocean rock]

its the phoshate that the problem at 0.11 thats whats causing the cyano ?

[SantaMonica]

Yes any phosphate at all will allow cyano. Cyano does not use nitrate.

[kcress]

Cool info. Amazing.

Update: Already my single cell bright green algae is starting to be covered by brown hair algae. Maybe I am finally getting somewhere.

[ocean rock]

glad to here it m8 , i think the only thing iam growing is cyano , so you must be doing some thing right :D

[kcress]

After installing the sub-chamber and diluting it to 1/5th the tank concentration by replacing water in this sub-system with four parts fresh made saltwater, I let the system run for about 3 weeks. After three weeks I took a water sample and found the nitrates to be just about exactly the same as my main tank - the water I'd diluted. I removed the sub-tank and went back to the original tank circulation.

Result: The screen was slowly covered with bright tan lumpy oatmeal looking algae. Yes TAN. A light tan. The flow could not be any better. The occasional hair that breaks off from the main display and ends up hung up on the oatmeal, you can see it whipping in the flow right up against the oatmeal.

A week ago I brought the light down closer by about six inches. It's now about 16inches from the turf. (90W MH)

Since I dropped the light the tan got darker, as dark as you could still call it tan. In the last week the color as shifted to dark olive drab.
See picture below.

Suggestions?

(4 x 3 inch close up)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/zobdflx3k6.jpg

[kcress]

After looking at my scrubber since my last post an hour ago.. I decided I need more light. All I could manage at the moment is a 23W CFL added to the MH. And, I dropped the MH down to 7 inches above the screen. Tomorrow I'll get some more clamp-ons and add more CFL.

[SantaMonica]

After installing the sub-chamber and diluting it to 1/5th the tank concentration by replacing water in this sub-system with four parts fresh made saltwater, I let the system run for about 3 weeks. After three weeks I took a water sample and found the nitrates to be just about exactly the same as my main tank - the water I'd diluted.

The above needs to be figured out first; It's impossible, the way that I read it. If you can explain this step more, it would help.

[kcress]

I agree. Totally unreasonable.

I am seriously doubting my nitrate test kit.

I propose replacing it. What are you using?

[ocean rock]

salifest are rated as the best mate .

[SantaMonica]

Yes, Salifert for 3 years.

[whites]

any updates on your led set up?

[kcress]

any updates on your led set up?

Sorry no. I have been trying everything to get the Desired Hair Algae. I only grow Other kinds so far. I am completely convinced my old tank does not contain any of the required species.

If I could ever get the correct HA I would promptly switch to a new High Brightness LED light. I am just not motivated to spend the money and time since N O T H I N G is working for me.

Last week I ordered new Salifert Phosphate and Nitrate test kits. Maybe they will shed some light on the problem.

[ocean rock]

hi kcress
why do u think some people grow green straight away and others have to persevere , to get the green stuff to grow , as you ve seen my tank test results are very good , yet i still dont have the green stuff on my screen , but iam going to grow it if it turns my hair gray lol , lets face it SM could grow green in a bucket go figure ,

[kcress]

I wish I knew!! :( :(

Until I get the targeted green I can't say with any assurance.

I have done vertical, horizontal, hi-flow, lo-flow, LEDs, Metal halide, CFL spots, CFL curly cues.

Presently I am using a single 75W CFL that is old. I am actually getting some green olive drab puffy stuff. HOWEVER I am also seeing some light green stuff in areas. It's hard to see with the flow and the sunlight hitting it. Tonight I will turn off the flow and see.

Otherwise I have two pet theories.

Theory One.
Very old setups that have had no new additions in years (like mine) may not actually have the desired species of algae existing in it any longer. "Can't grow what's not there." This seems valid since I have tried so many different variables but never had any sign of Bright Green Hair Algae(LGHA).

Theory Two.
Very large initial nitrate loads may select for different algae.
In biological systems as complex as Marine everything specializes. I submit that the LGHA thrives in low nitrate situations. I don't recall anyone with a sub 20ppm tank having any issues with getting LGHA, unless they were doing something really wrong,(classic is lights on 24hrs). This seems to fit with observed results. Most TS systems don't start with really high levels(>20ppm) of nutrients. And they almost always start with other kinds of algae that are darker and otherwise different, and after some nutrient drop convert over to LGHA. After the nutrients start to perceptibly drop the LGHA then starts to manifest itself. Note also that if you drive the nutrients down to zero the LGHA doesn't just die like all the other algae in the system it just suspends growing. I submit that this means it prefers very low nutrient levels. Also I think it will stumble if you flat overload it. Olive Drab HA will re-appear. Perhaps someone can confirm this.

I am greatly disappointed that my new Salifert test kits have still not shown up. :? Teach me to order something Christmas Eve... :lol:

[ocean rock]

cheers kcress
hope you did have a good xmass , you have done alot of expermenting , my tank as very high nutient levels but very low nitrate and nitrite ,but the phoshate is high wich also helps the algae grow in the tank , so iam going to cut down the feeding and keep the black stuff off the screen " I WILL GROW GREEN ! "

[kcress]

Viva la green!
Viva la green!

[kcress]

UPDATE:

You may remember I was doubting the validity of my nitrate test kit so I procured a Salifert Test Kit.




Drum roll...............



It confirms high levels exceeding the test kit's region of accuracy.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/iix1ra9tav.jpg



AlgaeNator has kindly sent me some of the turf out of his SCRUMP unit to prove/disprove a theory that my tank has lost the species of interest. If that is the case I should get the correct GHA going. If actually it is just the high nitrate levels inhibiting the growth of GHA then I should see no real improvement.

To help with the test I now have three new warm white 28W CFLs shining on my screen for a total of 84w of CFL on a 120 square inches of screen. (0.7W/sqin)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/0pv9pi3b0b.jpg


So now it can't be:
1) a flow problem
2) a hold-on problem
3) a light deficiency problem
4) a lack of species problem

We shall see.

[AlgaeNator]

Looking good KCress!

You got the proper lights dialed in now, and now you have a Starter Screen to mess with, from a proven system (My V Scrubber) this should help to see what's really going on with your system. Im Not sure about your "theories" on why your scrubber didnt take off, and if you really have a "dead zone" there. My guess is you just needed to seed your system with the proper spores and stick with the CFL bulbs. But, Like you say time will tell...

Im really glad you documented the high nitrates in your system before you installed my screen materials of the test, it will be interesting to see if:

1. your nitrates go down
2. The Screen I sent grows out fully and takes hold in your system and the screen material holds up
3. What type and speed of growth you get

Im glad the screens shipped ok to you...I cut the bag opening the box to rearrange the light, so I triple bagged it :)

Looks like got the screen material glued on OK..it appears. There should be enough growth on there to get you going I would think. If you can get some shots up close of the screen first few days in your system, I would love to document how they progress and grow on your system over time. That starter sheet I sent you already had some green hair starting to grow in in small clumps (which I was pysched to see so early that the material held up and was suitable for the algae to cling to). As you know, your starter screen was only in my Scrump only a few weeks and the Hair was taking hold.

It will be interesting to me to see the starter screens help to allow the HA to take hold in your system as it has in mine! My experience with the particular HA specie I am growing, and sent you, is that once it starts, it REALLY takes off.

Better buckle up! :)

[kcress]

Here's a picture of the algae starter. It's the third day.

I can see that it's increased by about 2X since it was put in. I can also see that it is now leaking off the material and starting to cover over my existing ice-plant turf. My brighter lighting is also making it grow much faster too. It will be interesting to see which algae wins the race.

I am still hesitant to get very excited as I have been struggling with this for a year now. I refuse to get excited about it.

Anyway on with the mantra - We shall see.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/p3imhg32c7.jpg

[ocean rock]

hope it all goes well

[AlgaeNator]

I'll get exited for you! LOL... Looks like it's taking hold?

My money? Is on Algaenator's HA... hehehe, but then, I'm a bit biased, no?

Question, Did you put BOTH halves of the screen material on there? Looks Like I only see one? Maybe it's just the picture... If not, what did you do with the other half of the screen material and how is THAT doing?

Either way Looking good KC! IMHO It's going to grow like a weed and probably take over your ice plant turf below.. That would be my guess. Be interesting to see how well the screen material holds onto larger "Hair Stars" once they form, that is something I am interested in following Along with YOU as I shipped that prototype screen before I saw it mature. I guess Depending on your flow rates and how big they get, I expect a few will tear off when they get large enough, feed those to your TANG :) That material however may do a better job than my SM screens did at holding onto the Stars when they get bigger.. We see I guess...

Also feed your tank despite your Nitrate levels the algae gets hungry for fresh nutrients, like the human body it needs good food too!

you know my recipe for "Reef Mush"? - ( bloody oysters, fresh clams, calamari, sushi, sea weed, shrimp, brine shrimp, noorie)... blend it up freeze it, and put that in occasionally. Hopefully you have some carnivorous fish in your tank? I know you have a fat tang.. hehehe.. If not just dump a cube of the mixture above into your system every few days.

Also KC keep us posted on your nitrate levels, be interesting to see if they drop? Maybe do another test in a few days or so.. Those screens are just STARTING OUT.. When I shipped it I thought there were SEVERAL HA clumps on there that were just starting... hopefully they survived shipping.. though it sounded like you only saw one of good size? From your picture its hard to make out the HA from the other stuff, though it looks like you have SEVERAL good sized clumps of HA growing downward from that starter screen, and it would be on the screen closest to the camera?

[AlgaeNator]

Where you at KC?

No updates no replies, don't see you on COD4 either? What gives... Was on from 12 till 2am last night solid!

See some more pics, and plz answer my questions in above post too ok?

tu

[kcress]

UPDATE: Alrighty! Here's an update on the Turf Starter I picked up from AlgaeNator.

After a week or so, the Starter Sheet I mounted at the top of my horizontal screen has really started growing. While not as fast as some people's screens have lit off I have to say I am very pleased. Remember I have not had ANY hair algae ever show it's face on my screen In just about a year of trying. So now the small spots that were originally on the screen are now covering a large area and spreading onto the usual Ice Plant turf I've had going. It also shows lots of oxygen evolution bubbles when the water is flowing across it.

I'm very happy with the growth I'm seeing.

Next I have to clean it which is always a little scary when one's finally gotten something going after a long struggle.
Thanks again AlgaeNator for sending me a test strip!

Though I don't expect any great change in my nitrate level yet I will test it in a few days and report.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/0nzozlpbed.jpg

[ocean rock]

glad to here your starting to see results !

[kcress]

Yeah thanks!

Me tooooooo.

When I took the picture I had to turn off my pump and water flow. Then I took the pictures and promptly got multiply interrupted and had to go to town. I came back three hours later and it dawned on me I'd left the water off and the lights on... :o :shock:

It all still looked wet. So I restarted the pump and today it seems the growth has even increased more. Go figger.

[AlgaeNator]

Funny now you mention it KC,

Actually That screen material was exposed to air like that on my system too when it was growing so I thnk you fine. So no worries, my V Scrump is powered by my overflows and return pump, but when I feed I turn OFF the pump, so the screen sits there exposed to air, at times I forget or dont turn on pump for a few hours.. I think as long as it doesnt DRY out completlely you are fine...

If you think about it, this type of Algae, in the wild, does the same thing during tidal changes, so I think this is VERY common and natural for it. This specie may actually PREFER O2 only during short periods of dampness. Maybe it helps it recover from flow exposure and oxgenate and respirate... who knows? All I know is once it starts growing it will really take off...

Glad to hear its taking hold, I knew it would, You will soon see some BRIGHT GREEN DAYGLO Algae coming in, along with other colors too.. That screen i sent you had reds, dark reds, dark greens, HA, Light Greens etc.. So I think there are about 3 diff species going on there.... Though the GHA seems to be the winner in the end.

Keep the pics coming, and in a few days maybe do a nitrate/phosphate test again... and post results if you can... Seems a bit early to test, but I think you should see some reductions at LEAST.

Looking good glad you happy!

I think my original theory is correct that is, that you just needed the GHA specie PRESENT to grow it, almost like Pink Corralline Algae... it can't grow it, if you dont have spores. So I think we can put the "dead" zone theories about nitrates to rest, or any other reason as well

Algaenator

[rygh]

Hmm. I think I will head off to the beach this weekend for some samples to jump start things.
"Moss Beach" must have what I need. Although a marine preserve, so maybe not, even if just algae.

[kcress]

Moss Beach south of SF?

[rygh]

Moss Beach south of SF?
Yes. But since I live in Union City, I will most likely just take my bike out to the bay.

[AlgaeNator]

any updates KCress?

Just curious how you making out, take some pics.. testing etc..

[kcress]

Yes AlgaeNator. The GHA has gotten thicker and spread some more. Nitrates are still pegged over 100ppm.

[AlgaeNator]

prolly not enough yet to make a difference... well when you think its grown enough to show, post some pics? OK??

thanks

glad it seems to be taking hold, that is very good

[kcress]

Will do. :mrgreen:

[AlgaeNator]

Ever notice your rank desciption on here?

Under my handle it says "Slime Algae"

Under yours it says "Turf Algae"

Otheres are "Scrubbers"

I'm not so sure "slime algae" describes me, as much as "Green Haired Algae" would, (though there is some slime on there)
but heck, there is slime everywhere... :)

I guess your handle is a bit closer.. Not sure it means anything anyways, I just noticed it!

btw: could use another progess pic, its been awhile? Very interested to see how u doin... tu..

Nator...

[kcress]

AlgaeN; The titles change with number of postings. I'm kind of in the no-mans-land there. If you want yours to change you need to post more! :mrgreen:


Update Star Date 20100217

The seeding seems to be working. As AlgaeNator's seed screen has spread some more. You can see that it's now trying to cover the IcePlant algae that's been growing.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/vk0g8jy3o6.jpg



This is the harvest from about 2 weeks. It's mostly IcePlant. The IcePlant is now regrowing to about a full inch thick in two weeks.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/mtb4hgvb49.jpg




A common issue with horizontal scrubbers is that as the turf builds it dikes the flow away from it. As the turf builds you get these islands rising up out of the flow. The reward for excellent growth is reduced flow. :cry: So, after the cleaning I boosted the angle substantially. It's now at 20 degrees. We'll see how that does after the turf builds again.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/rl53uu5484.jpg

[whites]

looking great!! whats your po4 etc?

[SantaMonica]

The "ice plant" stuff I believe is what you want. It gets more 3D in the flow, allowing flow to get to all sides of the strands. It also is lighter in color, which combined with the looser packing, allows light to get deeper. I always have the strongest filtering when this "ice plant" stuff is an inch or two thick, swirling in the runoff in the acrylic scrubber. When "ice plant" get covered with darker stuff, it usually means nutrients went up sharply in the tank.

[kcress]

The "ice plant" stuff I believe is what you want. It gets more 3D in the flow, allowing flow to get to all sides of the strands. It also is lighter in color, which combined with the looser packing, allows light to get deeper. I always have the strongest filtering when this "ice plant" stuff is an inch or two thick, swirling in the runoff in the acrylic scrubber. When "ice plant" get covered with darker stuff, it usually means nutrients went up sharply in the tank.


!!!!! It's what I've always had!

But how, HOW do you harvest it? Trying to cut some off is just like you'd imagine would happen if you tried to cut some of the top off of Ice Plant. It just mangles what's left to the point that it bleeds everywhere and then has to recover with brown damaged areas having to struggle back.

[SantaMonica]

I just clean everything completely off. Can't you do that?

[kcress]

Yes I can.. That's sort of what it's come down to. And it comes back in about a week and really starts building the second week.

Sounds like the ideal would be two screens so one can take a week to recover. Then produce.

BTW the Pods can't touch this stuff. They even seem to abandon it. "Nothing here for us folks, move along." :lol:

[AlgaeNator]

Maybe you should dedicate a screen for each type you have vs having them duke it out for space?... Just a thought.

Doing that however, might reduce any kind of immunities they are building up as they fight each other for light and territory... Sometimes what doesn't kill us makes us stronger? Only problem with that statement is, figuring out which WILL kill one, and which one will only make you stronger.
hehe


I say you start another horizontal scrubber, but, this time use the Material we talked about, simply glued to an Acrylic Sheet angled the same way with same flow etc...
Seed it with GHA you have on hand... Let it find is own way on it's own screen/materials.

U wonder how many species of Algae we have growing in our Scrubbers... IMHO I think One is as good as the other, but combine Two? Three? Four? Six? Even better... I say the more the merrier... if you can get Turf, GHA, Slime... and God Knows what else..I say, more power to ya!

Im starting to see a difference in my Display tank btw ONLY RUNNING an ATS, not only am I producing fresh Green food for my fish, I can tell my tank is getting into more of a balance chemically.

[AlgaeNator]

Any updates spuck? How bout some pictures?

[rygh]

Just a note on my experience with a semi-horizontal scrubber and algae types:
I am starting to get a bit of light green ice-plant like algae as well. Does not come off easy.
I was thinking of using a razor blade with a small 1/32 or so shim to leave a little space.
To cut the top off, and leave the base.

Now for the really interesting part: I am only getting it under the CFL section. The LED section seems to have
normal hair algae. Weird!

[ocean rock]

hi kcress
hows the screen running are you seeing any drop in nitrates ,?

[ocean rock]

were have you gone been along time ?