New Santa Monica 100 Set Up

[Floridays]

After receiving the new Algae Scrubber from Santa Monica, I was truly impressed with the quality and workmanship with his invention. This scrubber is well worth the money. I am anxiously waiting to see how the scrubber works.

I have to give Santa Monica numerous KUDOS on responding to my emails and phone calls for technical and general questions promptly. I believe he is very proud of his product and it appears that he has spent a lot of time testing and perfecting his product. The best part is the appearance. Because my wife has approved it along with the location were is sit

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00332.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00335.jpg

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http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00344.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00343.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00345.jpg

[ShanGo]

what's that blue cap on the drain off

[Floridays]

The blue cap was a protector for shipping, I did take it off. It just to plug the hole until set up.

[SantaMonica]

It's actually so you can plug the drain while cleaning.

[Floridays]

Oh Ok

Third Day running no Algae yet.
Lights 18 on 6 off
Should I remove the filter sock??
I am not running a skimmer
Any suggestions?

[spideybry]

I would say just let it run just like you have been. Check in a few days. I was paranoid checking everyday (still am lol) After that first weekish, when you remove the screen, you will see how brown it is.

[Floridays]

Ok
Yea guess Im trying to rush it.
Patience

Thanks

[mrbncal]

Yes you want to remove the sock. No need for it.

[Floridays]

Ok Thanks
I'll remove it today

[Floridays]

This is 7 days running
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C00349.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00349.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C00348.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00348.jpg)

[new2scrub]

looks great! my next tank will have a SM100 on it! but for now its the old DIY sp90 lol keep us posted!!

[Floridays]

Thanks
I'll post along the way with pics.

[SantaMonica]

Ok you can let it go another week, this one time.

[Floridays]

Ok Thanks
I'll keep you posted with Pics
Thanks SM

[spideybry]

How are you liking the Santamonica scrubber? I am thinking of adding one to my new DT set up as well :) Will probably be getting the SM100.

[Floridays]

I really like this scrubber alot . It is well worth the money, as I said before the quality and workmanship is outstanding.
These are the pics of the scrubber that has been working for 11 days.
The algae is slow growing in my opinion, but in all due time things will take off after a few scrubbings of the screen

So if you are wanting to purchase a SM 100 you won't be disappointed.
So far I'm Happy
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00397.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00396.jpg

[spideybry]

Good to know. Only thing holding me back is the price lol. Setting up a new system can get expensive real quick. -_-

[Floridays]

Yes it can get expensive but just think spending money on a sump with filtration, sock,bio balls etc, Skimmer and so on.

1 Algae Scrubber, to do all the work in place of the other filtration.
If I would have learned of the Algae Scrubber while buying my setup I would have just purchased the scrubber, but thats just me.
Right now the only thing running on my tank is the scrubber. I removed all the other filtration.

[spideybry]

Well I still need a sump lol. I plan on running a skimmer as a back up/redundancy in the system, since just 1 scrubber most likely won't be enough in the system. I am lookin at around ~180g total system volume. Lets see what happens lol.

[Floridays]

These are the pics of the screens after 14 days. The screens are before and after


http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00398.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00399.jpg
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http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00404.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Couldn't be more perfect. Clean most off, and go to 7 day schedule.

[Floridays]

Thanks SM
I'll keep you posted

[Floridays]

This my second cleaning.
Test results were
Nitrates between 40-50
Phosp 0.25-0.5
The test were done with the API Master Reef test kit.
The first pics were of Hair algae growing on the back glass. I never had this algae before, but it does appear that algae in other places on the glass is diminishing.
The other pics are the second cleaning. On the screen are small green ball type algae. The screen had brown and small amount of green algae.

Feeding twice a day which consist of 1 cube brine shrimp,1 mysis shrimp,1 cube reef plankton
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00446.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00445.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00450.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00449.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00447.jpg

[SantaMonica]

Lots of nutrients in that tank. Clean all the darks stuff off the screen. Be sure to remove the screen from the pipe too, each time, and clean the slot with toothbrush.

[Floridays]

Thanks SM
Do I keep feeding the way I am ?
Clean 7 or 3 days

[SantaMonica]

Feed same.

7 days.

[Floridays]

Thanks

[Floridays]

This is the screen after 5 cleanings. I am not getting any GHA. The nutrients are still high
PH 8.2
Phosphate 0.5
Nitrate 80
Not running any filtration other that the Scrubber.
Lights are on 18 Off 6
Started cleaning the brown algae every 5 days
I clean both screens at the same time. HELP PLEASE

Is there anything that I should be doing different, or does it take longer for the nutrients to come down.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC00557.jpg
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[SantaMonica]

You have black algae. Ultra high nutrients. And you also have very high flow, visible from the thick water on the bottom.

The bald spots on the screen are due to this black algae (which is really just super dark slime) not being able to hold on tightly to the screen. Your extra high flow is causing the slime to let go and go back into the water, which is lowering your filtering. Anytime you see bald spots like that, algae is letting go. Plus, you are letting the black algae get too thick anyway; it blocks all light from reaching the "roots". Black algae should never be allowed to get to be more than just a very thin layer.

Fix: Slow the flow, so that the water on the botton is only half as much, and start cleaning the whole screen every 3 days, all the way down to the plastic. Leave no black algae on the screen at all. This will keep the black algae from blocking too much light to the "roots", and will also keep it from getting thick enough to be carried away by the flow. You need to be not getting any bald spots; filtering cannot operate properly with bald spots.

Do this cleaning every 3 days until there is no more black algae growing.

[Floridays]

Ok great.
So the flow, what about feeding should I keep feeding the same

[Floridays]

Should I remove all the algae from the screen, like starting a new screen

[SantaMonica]

Reduced feeding will speed things up.

[Floridays]

Ok
Thanks SM

[Floridays]

Nutrients still high.
Screen grows very little green,mostly brown.
Clean every three days.
Did several water changes, still the same.

Any suggestions.

[SantaMonica]

3 days is for black, not brown. So let it go 7 days.

How much are you feeding?

[Floridays]

Feeding 3 cubes a day, plus several small crabs for the eel.

[SantaMonica]

You'll need to be getting a half inch of thickness on each side of the screen after 7 days, to filter that. Probably a half pound of harvesting if you clean the whole thing.

[Floridays]

Question:

What is the Baking Soda measurement you use for the top off water?
This is used to raise the PH right.

[dtyharry]

If I had been running a scrubber for such a long time and still had such high nutrient levels, I would be seriously doubting it's worthiness as a standalone system. A little bit of vodka and a good skimmer and you will have zero readings in no time, and a more reasonable electric bill. Just playing devils advocate.

[Ace25]

On my setup, skimmer + vodka takes more time and more power than my ATS and only does a fraction of what an ATS can accomplish. It just takes patience for an ATS to get established, which is something I see a lot of people lacking that speak negatively about an ATS.

Nice try on the Troll bait though.. unfortunately for you, most people on this site know the science behind skimmers and how much they do NOT do for a tank. Thanks for playing though. LOL.

Also, try debating this article if you think Vodka does all that magic you claim.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature


However, there is a demonstrable difference between reef tank water in an active reef tank, and reef tank water removed from the tank. In the latter case, bacteria consumers are largely absent, and so fueling bacteria growth via carbon addition translates to rapid and large increases in bacteria population. In an active reef tank, however, this population increase is not manifest, presumably because active predation keeps the overall level in check. Thus, the highly dynamic nature of bacteria populations in the water column of reef aquaria is highlighted by these studies. From a different perspective, the bacteria population in a reef tank seems to act as a buffer to help dissipate the otherwise potentially serious negative consequences of (inadvertent?) tank pollution via rapid carbon addition, at least perhaps up to a saturation point.

[SantaMonica]

A little bit of vodka and a good skimmer and you will have zero readings in no time, and a more reasonable electric bill.

But how are you going to get food into the water? Since the skimmer takes it out, you have to put it back, or, not have much coral food in the water. How often are you going to re-buy the livestock that dies because of lack of food? Weekly? Monthly?

And how are you going to raise the pH? And how are you going to raise the oxygen? Whatever means you use, it will require more money and/or power. And more space. And will be more to break.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is a great article. That study did not have a large sample of systems to pull from (about 5 tanks) but they were Sanjay's tanks and a few others, and the equipment and process was highly sceintific. So in all fairness, it's hardly conclusive (which is admitted several times in the article) but it sure does provide a lot of good information, and interesting conclusions. Specifically, that it appears that there are some bacteria that are "skimmable" and other that are not. And that skimming appears to remove 27-38% of all bacteria, then there is a "floor" that skimming will not break through. The implication that removal of only one sub-species of bacteria via skimming could lead to an imbalance of some kind (mention of possible causation of "old tank syndrome") I thought was pretty bold, but completely plausible.

Other interesting points regarding carbon dosing is that it didn't seem to really have much affect on a closed reef system, but take the water out of the tank and put it in a container and then it does. Interesting that they also discovered that just letting the water pulled out of a reef tank sit in a covered rubber container causes a bacteria explosion. Also interesting that they they took this further, testing various salt mixes in closed glass containers and got no appreciable bacteria increase. But in the rubber garbage can (like I use to mix) there was a huge spike in bacteria growth within 24 hours, then it dropped and leveled off. Interesting that I have read before to let your SW mix for 24 hours or at least overnight before adding because of "reactions that continue after mixing", and this is just another thing to add to the reasoning I guess.

But in all fairness, the article ends:


The bottom line with respect to the carbon dosing hypothesis is clear; the basic tenets of this theory appear to hold up to experimental scrutiny; carbon dosing does increase water column bacteria populations, and skimming does remove some bacteria with their attendant nutrient loads. Thus, the underlying science behind this approach to nutrient export appears valid.

But I have a feeling that further research will reveal more interesting data.

That article is a great read, if you skip through all the mumbo jumbo about what equipment they used to test bacteria and TOC and just assume that they know what they're doing. I have no idea what a Coulter XL cytometer is, all I know is that now I want one.

[dtyharry]

Admirable as it is to have an entire reef ecosystem in a very small body of water, in reality we are all fooling ourselves if we think we can achieve more than a few fractions of one percent of it.
I would speculate that the vast majority of people who keep reef tanks do so to be able to look at beautiful corals and fish, and not to try and emulate an entire ecosystem.
It can be seen from the many many forums that vodka dosing does work when carried out responsibly, and bacteria are skimmed out to enough of a degree to remove the assimilated n and p.
A skimmer such as the deltec mce300 uses 18w and is more than sufficient for a 50 gallon tank. A similar scrubbed tank would need 50w of light plus the pump.
Both methods reduce n and p and a skimmer is more than adequate to maintain oxygen levels.
As for feeding, yes I am sure that some food is removed by skimming but if fed adequately and with the extra bacteria growth, unless your tank is crammed to bursting, all the corals will be fed.
Ace the advanced aquarist article is interesting if a little in depth for a layman like me, but does confirm that carbon dosing increases bacteria levels, and skimming reduces their levels significantly enough to make the system work. It also says as we all know that bacteria work on an infinite number of levels to maintain a habitable ecosystem.

[Ace25]

A skimmer such as the deltec mce300 uses 18w and is more than sufficient for a 50 gallon tank. A similar scrubbed tank would need 50w of light plus the pump.

And a skimmer like a AquaC EV120 that uses a Mag12 pump takes over 3x as much power as my ATS (110w for pump), My ATS uses LEDs and is run off my return pump/overflow so no extra pump needed and a whopping 30w worth of power according to my kill-a-watt (less than most people use for a light over Chaeto in a refugium!). :P Also, the up front cost of a "good" skimmer is going to cost you around $300 now a days vs $5 in PVC and $10 in CFL bulbs if you go that route.. oh ya, screen, add another 50cents max for that.. I know, that last part may kill the budget right? Better stick with that $300 skimmer that can only work 30% of the time (would anyone in their right mind buy a car knowing it will only work 30% of the time, why do we do so with skimmers then?)

Bacteria is no doubt an important piece to a good reef tank, why else would we have live rock/sand, etc. But to turn it from an important piece to a critical piece, one that we have no way to measure at home, is insane. So when you dose a carbon source, how much bacteria is your system adding/removing, how much of that bacteria is "good" vs "bad"? Things like that are all unknowns to us at the hobbiest level. Isn't one of the basic rules of reefkeeping "If you can't test for it, DON'T DOSE IT!". Yet, so many advocate dosing vodka, vitamin C, etc, with no way to test what it is doing.

[SantaMonica]

all the corals will be fed.

This is the achillies heel of the whole thing. No, the corals won't be fed, anywhere near the same as a no-mechanical-filter system. All of the brown stuff in skimmate, all of it, is (was) coral food. It all needs to go back into the tank. All of it.

Besides bacteria, you are not accounting for DOC (vitamins, proteins, amino acids, carbs), copepods, amphipods, phyto, fish waste, coral mucus, and of course whatever food you manually feed. If you've never run a no-mechanical-filter system before, you might not have seen the amount of particles that float around. This all coral food.

Do you know that acro's grow 12" per year in the wild? That's 1" per month. Some actually grow 20" per year. So what's the ocean got that super-equipment-sps tanks don't" Lighting? No. Flow? No. Low nutrients? No. Super-equipment-sps tanks have all of that.

Food: That's what super-equipment-sps tanks don't have. If you can't see millions of food particles in the water, then you don't have the food supply that the ocean delivers. And that's just during the day. At night, you should have 10 times the amount of particles, again, like the ocean has.

It's not about re-creating an ecosystem; it's about giving corals real amounts of food, and low nutrients, all with no equipment except the scrubber.

BTW, the growth of bacteria in the 24 hour reef water tests is due to bacteria consuming the DOC. Newly mixed SW has no DOC for bacteria to consume.

[Floyd R Turbo]

SM, clarify for me. What I was stating was that one of their findings showed that when they mixed up fresh SW in a rubbermaid type container, there was a bacterial population spike in 24 hrs, which did not happen in glass flasks. It was left as an unknown factor, but theorized that even with containers that were cleaned with distilled water and cleaner and well rinsed (etc, they did a lot) that there was still growth. The theory then became that the bacteria found something to consume in the container material, which seemed to be confirmed because there was no growth in glass containers.

[SantaMonica]

Ah that's different... there have been studies on those, Eric has a sticky on them on his old forum.

[Ace25]

Most plastic containers, even Brute trashcans, will leach some (very small amount) of bad stuff into the water. Found this out by mixing fresh saltwater, tested, Phosphates=.02, tested 24 hours later, Phosphates=.14 using B-Ionic Salt. I can repeat that scenario every time so it isn't a fluke. Now I mix and use the water I make within 10 minutes so I don't get nasty stuff leaching into the water (you can do this with B-Ionic salt, not so with others). My thinking is, there is something in the plastic that is similar to Bio-Pellets and is slowly leaching/feeding a very small amount of bacteria which then dies off when salt is added and gives a spike in things like Phosphates, that is my theory anyway, no science behind it unfortunately. If you think about it, some bacteria is bound to get through tap water / RO/DI filters, then feeds/multiplies a little off whatever is in the plastic container, then the salt kills the bacteria causing the spike. I am not saying that is exactly what is going on, but just from a hobbyist standpoint that is how it appears.

Another thing I noticed when I used a rubbermaid as a sump was it was constantly covered in cyano no matter what I did (although when I added bio-pellets it made the cyano grow about 10x as fast). I could drain it, clean it really well, and within 48 hours it is covered again, but not a spot of cyano in my display tank. So when I took the rubbermaid out I did a quick test, clean container with bleach, dry completely and let sit outside in the sun for a day to make sure all the bleach is gone, then put in new saltwater, powerhead, heater, and a lid... and let run. Within a week with just that setup the sump was again covered in Cyano, although not nearly as bad as when it was part of my tank, more of a light film vs a solid thick mat. That again told me something was leaching out of the plastic to feed the bacteria in the water. Unless you run your RO/DI through a good UV filter I do think some bacteria will be in the water, how much bacteria and what type is anyones guess.

Anyway.. enough of that, sorry OP for derailing your thread... back to your issue, I agree with SM, feed more, clean weekly, and just have patience. Some systems take longer than others for the screen to get established. I would say normal is 30 days, but it isn't unheard of for it to take 3 months to get the screen working good depending on your system.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ace, this wasn't a spike in N or P as a result of die-off that was happening, it is a spike in bacteria growth from 0 hrs (salt added) to 24 hrs. If you read the study in the link provided, you'll see the chart about a little more than 1/2 way through the article - Figure 13.


And now back to the original topic...forgot what that was...oh well.

[Ace25]

Oh I know.. I guess I should have said what my point was in my above post, which was just to say bacteria will survive in many conditions (Researchers proved Cyanobacteria will survive in outer space! (http://www.microbemagazine.org/index.php/06-2010-current-topics/1851-cyanobacteria-from-earth-survive-rocky-ride-through-space)). One of them could be inside the bag of salt itself. Once the bacteria that is in the salt gets put into a plastic container, it now has a better living environment and a food source to multiply. I am guessing something along those lines is what made the difference between glass flasks and clean plastic containers in the article.

Original point of the thread was why the OP isn't getting any green growth yet on with SM scrubber. ;)

[Floridays]

So after all that
What's the answer to my question?

[dtyharry]

And why his nitrates are still 80 despite 4 months of using what appears to be a top spec plug and play scrubber with no faults to iron out or adjustments to be made

[itzrulez]

floridays, ask for someone in your country, that has scrubber, send you some algae, for you seed your screen!(send just like send fishs!)

[dtyharry]

According to the 12 sq in rule per cube rule, what floridays is feeding should we well within the capabilities of the sm100 should it not?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Don't bother seeding it. That would only work for a blank screen, plus with the high nutrient load the only algae you're going to get is the dark stuff, so whatever you get won't live.

I read through this thread entirely several times. I do not see a tank description or pictures of the display tank.

Please post a full description of your tank and system, give as much detail as possible, things like:

Tank size
Lighting and light cycle (on display tank)
pounds of live rock
amount of sand
Fish: type and size
clean-up crew
corals: type and size
sump size and contents
return pump size
tank temperature
dosing schedule (alk, cal, mag, iron, anything else)
screen feed pump size (assuming you feed the screen from a separate pump?), height difference between pump and SM100 scrubber input

This is just a starter list, anything else you can think of, add it. Plus provide pictures, enough so we can see all parts of the system.

This is what I like to ask for when there appears to be a problem that doesn't go away with simple fixes. It seems that the advice given so far is spot on.

First you had black slime that you had to clean every 3 days, and dial back the flow - did you do that? Did the screen growth change?

Second, you stated that you were getting brown algae (NOT black slime) and were told to switch to cleaning every 7 days. Did you do that? What was the screen growth like?

Third, you were advised that you should cut back the feedings and let the screen bring the nutrients down. Have you been limiting feeding? For how long?

I noticed that your initial test results were 40-50, now they're 80, and phosphate was 0.25-0.5, now they're ??? What test kits are you using? When was the last time you replaced them?

I noticed that you have 2 pics on page 3 that show a ton of algae on the back of the display tank. This is why I would like to see full tank shots. Have you ever clean and removed the algae from the display tank? I'm not saying to go and do that right now, I'm just asking if you have. You may not need to and you may not want to yet.

Work on getting this info posted and hopefully we can pinpoint the issue.

[SantaMonica]

Yes the 3 day cleaning, by itself, is enough to stop it from working. It was not black, so it needs to run 7 days.

[Floridays]

Thanks to all
It's my fault I was not letting the screen go 7 days.
During my readings on the site, I thought I was to clean the brown off the screen as soon as it appeared. The saying the Green won't grow if the brown is on the screen.
I am letting the screen go for the 7 days, and see what happens.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok. Still would like to see a bunch of pictures of the setup, if you have the time.

[SantaMonica]

Yes, pics.

What happens is that black (like tar) growth is slippery and covers the screen so that green can't attach. So even if the black growth brings down nutrients so that green would like to grow, the green can't attach. Brown however, is mostly diatoms, and green can grow right through it and attach to the screen.

[Floridays]

I completely understand the concept now.
I thought that any brown needed to be cleaned off the screen before the green would grow.
Should I dose lime water, and will that help the scrubber?

[SantaMonica]

It could, if your alk is low.

[Floridays]

Ok
Thanks

[Floridays]

This is the display along with the scrubber. The growth on the scrubber screen is a full week.
There is several spots on the screen that are green/yellow mix. This is the most green that has been on the screen.
The screen is covered in brown, but looking at the brown closer it appears that the brown looks like it is stringy.
The display does not have any GHA.

Question: Should I let the screen go a few more days or clean it now.
When I do clean it, does all the brown need to come off or do I leave some on.
When cleaning do I just gently rub off the algae, or use a toothbrush and clean to the screen.

http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01978.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01978.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01980.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01980.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01979.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01979.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01977.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01977.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01976.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01976.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01974.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01974.jpg)
http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C01975.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/?action=view&current=DSC01975.jpg)

[SantaMonica]

Give it two more days. It's still very dark, and I'm afraid of it washing off.

Clean it all, lightly.

[Floridays]

Great
Thanks SM

[Spartacus66]

Hey Floridays--just wondering how the last two months have been for you. My scrubber has been going for a week now, and my screen looked exactly like yours did after your first week, so I read the whole thread.

Are you getting any green now?

[Floridays]

I have some green on the screen, but still have the brown.
Thinking of doing a hugh water change.

[SantaMonica]

Water change is not the answer.

How old are the bulbs? How much are you feeding?

[Floridays]

I just replaced the bulbs.
I feed about 2 cubes a day.
Presently I have 4 fish and 1 eel

I have alot of green on the screens, but it gets covered by the brown. I then clean the brown off and leave the green.

[Floyd R Turbo]

My screen get good green growth also, and usually has a layer of brown diatom growth on top of it. It's normal and I wouldn't worry about it unless you have having problems with nutrients or corals.

[Floridays]

I just don't get the green hair like I see on this site.
It stays brown . I let it go 7 to 10 days then I clean it, leaving the green on the screen. Then in about 2 days the brown comes back. This is how its been since I started the scrubber.
Any Suggestions????
Thanks for your input.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I rarely go over 7 days between cleanings. The rationale is that as algae grows thicker it blocks light to the lower layers and can cause detachment, which you may not notice if it's a bunch of small areas.

So when you clean the screen, do you scrape all the algae off, just leaving the algae that is stuck in the holes, or do you just rinse of the brown powdery layer and leave the green hair?

[Floridays]

I remove all the brown algae from the screen, and leave the green which is also in the holes of the screen. I use a soft toothbrush also. I leave the green hoping that it will take over but I haven't seen this yet

[Floyd R Turbo]

It's hard to tell from those screen pics a few posts back with the light on how much of that growth is brown and how much is black. It looks like you have little tufts of green, is that the only green growth you are getting?

On the flipside, your DT shots look a ton better. Have you tested N and P lately?

I would say that your screen is still pulling nutrients out like crazy. Don't go over 7 days if your screen still looks like that.

[Floridays]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02085.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02085.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02086.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02086.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02088.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02088.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02009.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02009.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02013.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02013.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02014.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02014.jpg)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159 ... C02011.jpg (http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/apiratelooksatforty/DSC02011.jpg)

The first couple of photos are the present, and has not been cleaned yet
The other photos are after cleaning, and what I leave on the screen.
The photo with the bowl with algae its all brown algae.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That growth looks a ton better than what it did a few months ago. I would not go longer than 7 days though on the cleaning. It almost looks like the darker stuff on the cleaned screen could be red turf. I get this. When you take a plastic scraper, like one used for scraping algae from an acrylic aquarium or for scraping pots & pans, that 'squeegees' the water out as you scrape it, and it looks almost pinkish red (and the GHA left on the screen will be bright green). When it's wet, it tends to look more brown-red. This might be what you're seeing.

Next time you clean, use a plastic scraper and clean one of the screens really well, like I show in these vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeVQk4jUOKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbtl8DJFGV4

In the second one at about the 3 minute point I show a close-up of the side of the screen that hasn't been cleaned, but the water has been squeezed from it by cleaning the other side. You can see the green and red algae pretty well.

The red turf is not as effective at filtering because it grows slower, and takes up valuable screen space. About once a month I really scrape this stuff off hard, and on time I went so far as to use a hacksaw blade. But I found the handheld plastic scraper works very well if you dig hard. Leave behind only what is between the holes. That's what I do each time I clean.

Like I said, try it for one of the screens (one half of the scrubber) and leave the other half like you've been doing it and see if there is a noticeable difference in growth between the 2 screens over the next week.

[Floridays]

Hey Thanks Floyd Turbo for the help.
I will do like you said, clean one screen and see what happens.

I was getting a little discussed with the results Im getting.
I'll try anything to get it going like it should.

From looking at the pictures would you say clean every 5 or 7 days ? or let it go 10 days

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think you're getting brown/red turf and GHA, not dark light-blocking algae. 7 days.

On a side note, SM's latest cleaning video shows him only quickly cleaning the screen, and then once a month he does the thorough cleaning. I have always done the 'thorough' cleaning. Have you cleaned the box itself out lately? Any algae building up in there needs to be removed every so often as well. I found that coralline algae will grow in the box, then GHA will attach to the rough surface and it's about impossible to remove without a pan scraper.

[Floridays]

Ok I will keep to the 7 day rule.
Every-time I clean I do clean the scrubber box of all the algae.

Thanks again

[SantaMonica]

How much P is in the rocks...

[Floridays]

Its going to be 0.5 Phosphate

[Floyd R Turbo]

Wow your rocks must be loaded with P. Either that, or you are N limited and P is not getting absorbed. What is your N?

[Floridays]

Nitrate 10ppm

[Floyd R Turbo]

I've been following this thread with interest. I just wanted to put this into perspective for you, or anyone else reading...

You started off in January, and by February/March, your N was somewhere in the 40-80 range (difficult to tell when levels are that high, unless you dilute the sample and test at several dilution levels) and P in the 0.5 range.

Now your N is down to 10, P still hanging on at 0.50. Your screen growth is indicating progression, albeit slow, away from a ultra-high nutrient system. It seems that your LR was (and still is) really nutrient rich. But you are winning the battle. I would have to say it has been a tough battle and I am curious to see how long it takes to finally get the N and P down to zero.

Think of the money that you would have spent on alternate methods of nutrient reduction - skimmer, GFO/Carbon reactor & media, filter socks/pads, etc, and don't forget PWCs. And time dealing with all of those.

[Floridays]

Thanks again.
I am not giving up on this. You are right about the money savings
I will continue to fight the battle and keep everyone posted of the progress.

[SantaMonica]

You should be cleaning one screen at a time. If you clean both (in a high-nutrient system like yours), the nutrients will shoot up in the water after a cleaning, and cause the initial screen growth to be dark and slimey, which will block gha from attaching to the screen. So clean one screen every 5 days; each one will then grow for 10 days.

Also get all the turf off so that you can see the white of the screen. If light can't shine through the roots (which it's not in your pics), then the roots are not getting light from both sides and will die twice as quick (as they do on 1-sided screens).

I actually try to push any dark stuff out of the holes, using a toothbrush.

[Floridays]

Thanks Santa Monica
I was cleaning both screens at the same time.
I will change to one screen at a time.

[Floridays]

Hey Everyone
Im still getting the dark brown algae on the screens.
I clean one screen at a time. I leave them growing for a total of 14 days.
When I clean the screens I leave all the green algae that is under the brown on the screen hoping it will over take the brown. After a couple of days the brown algae is back.
I have tried water changes and cleaned the sand which gets really dirty.
N0 is 80
P0 is 1.0
I feed two cubes a day along with several fiddler crabs and small shrimp to the eel
There is green algae on the Display glass
I have : 3 fish
1 Zebra Eel
2 Turbo Snails
1 Bubble tip
Numerous Mushrooms
I have been running the scrubber since Jan 2010 trying to keep interested in this hobby with the scrubber, but with my results its is very hard.
I need help, with any suggestions anyone might have.

[kerry]

I had that problem until I updated my lights to double the standard and I still run them 16-18HRS on.

[SantaMonica]

How old are the lights. 18 hours?

Clean the whole screen, all the way, every 14 days.

Clean the bottom of the box too. And the slot.

Pics before cleaning.