ATS for 83g Custom setup

[spideybry]

Hey guys, I am in the process of setting a new DT/Reef system in my home. It will consist of an 83g custom tank, 75g sump (in the basement), and a 40g frag tank tied into it as well. I am looking to get around 75lbs of dry Pukani rock for the DT, and some of my rock from my current set up in the sump.

My question is will the SM100 do enough for my filtration (not sole filtration since I will have LR and a skimmer running). I am sort of upgrading from my 75 atm, but I plan on only bringing over fish and some LPS to the new tank. I will most likely run a skimmer like the one I have now on my current system either way because I like having a redundancy in my filtration.

I also need to "cure" the rock before I use it in the DT, which I would like to hope I can do in the tank while "cycling".

Thoughts?


[right-click and "view image" to see big pics]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/Screenshot2011-01-05at45845PM.png

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=91616&stc=1&d=1296276088

[SantaMonica]

Base it on the amount of food: One SM100 can handle up to 10 cubes a day with no skimmer or water changes.

[spideybry]

So even with an additional 40g tank and 75g sump, I should be ok? I doubt I would need to feed 10cubes a day lol. Just sounds like a lot to me. Many corals dont seem to eat from the cubes in my tanks, since I use mostly Oyester feast or something with the smaller micron. I know we need to feed our tanks and especially if we have a scrubber, but I don't think I will be needing to feed 10 cubes a day.

[SantaMonica]

Then one scrubber is enough.

[spideybry]

Thts good to hear then.

What would you suggest doing as to "cycling/curing" the rock? It is dry so I think it makes a difference.

Thoughts?

[SantaMonica]

First, many folks are not familiar with the differences between "cycling" and "curing", so here is how you can know what to do, regardless:

If the rock was dry (meaning "dead") when you got it, then there is nothing in the rock that you need to keep alive. So "dry" rock, no matter what it's called, will not benefit from a scrubber (or a skimmer either). Preparing dry rock is easy because you WANT the ammonia to build up to high levels, so that the proper bacteria will build up in and on the rock. This bacteria will then remove ammonia when you put the rock in your tank.

"Wet" rock, meaning rock from the ocean or an established tank, is different. It DOES have live stuff in it, which is why it's called "live rock". You want this stuff to stay alive because it filters and feeds your tank. However, much of it died on the way from the ocean to you, and if you put a lot of this rock directly into your tank, you may get too much ammonia from it. So for larger amounts of live rock, you want to "cure" it in a separate container. But here is where the super, gigantic difference between skimmers and scrubbers really shows: The living things in the rock are kept alive by food particles, but are killed by ammonia. So if you only have a skimmer on the container (which removes food, but not ammonia), you take away the food that the little animals need to live, but you let the ammonia stay, which further hurts the animals.

A scrubber, however, leaves all the food in the water, even if the "food" is dead and decaying stuff. This "stuff" is not harmful at all; it's the ammonia that is harmful. The "stuff" is actually food for the critters that came with the rock. Scrubbers remove the ammonia (that's what algae eats), so the critters in the rock will still have food to eat, without being killed by the ammonia. A skimmer, however, removes the food that the critters need to eat, but does not remove the ammonia. Thus the critters are starved, and killed, at the same time. So if the rock is "wet" and is supposed to be "live rock", then using a scrubber instead of a skimmer will allow the rock to keep the most life possible, and in many cases will eliminate a "cycle" altogether.

So if you are curing live "wet" rock, you don't need or want to add anything to get a cycle going. But if you are cycling dry rock, then you will need to add some food to get things rotting.

All this being said, a scrubber will not grow much during cycling; just a light brown film. But this will be enough to keep ammonia down in the water, and keep nuisance algae off of the rocks. But this will allow the screen to get started, and once you start feeding it will grow much faster.

[spideybry]

Sounds good. It was once live rock, farmed then dried, so I expect some die off, which should help the tank get going. I will also feed the tank heavy to get the bacteria established.

Now you mentioned that the dry rock would not benefit from a scrubber/skimmer in the beginning. I am guessing since I want the bacteria to get a foothold of the rock. Would it be wise to hold off adding the scrubber to the system for a few weeks, then once my tank is nearing the ending stages of the cycle, add the scrubber?

[SantaMonica]

No preference.

[spideybry]

Sounds good, now I just need to get the money lol.

[spideybry]

Here is the new tank almost up. I plan on trying to make my own scrubber. I ordered the acrylic to make a simple box and see how it goes. At least until I can afford the better one. I plan on making it the same dimensions as the SM100, just not as pretty. Should get the acrylic Tuesday :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/dd4a3be4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/43b08b9e.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hey SM excellent writeup on curing live rock with a scrubber. That is exactly what I expected (ammonia eaten by scrubber) however I did not think about the other aspect of it, the skimmer starving the 'critters'. Didn't mean to threadjack I just thought that was great info.

[spideybry]

So to follow up, with the ammonia being eaten by the scrubber, what happens to the bacterial populations on the rock? My ammonia is around ~1.5ppm at the moment. I want the tank to hurry up and get cycled lol.

Could I add a scrubber to the tank and go over the cycling process? Or will that be detrimental to the set up?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/778552d9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/d9c3b672.jpg

[itzrulez]

scrubber ends with amonia
amonia ends with almost every animal...
some bacterias (nitrosomonas,nitrosococcus) use the amonia to convert in nitrite,then other bacteria (nitrobacter)convert nitrite in nitrate....
i think the scrubber can interfere in the process by:
"eating" amonia
"eating" nitrite
"eating" nitrate

i have a question to SM
if we ad some hydroponic legumes(in some possible way), then,the plant will need Nitrogen to produce Protein, that would end to lot of amonia right?

[Floyd R Turbo]

itzrulez, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - growing legumes, being a plant, would absorb the same nutrients that algae would absorb, so if you were running an ATS, it wouldn't grow. Maybe I'm not understanding...

W/R to ammonia, almost every animal (corals included, I believe) produce ammonia. So it's not like the ammonia is instantly zapped by the scrubber, it has to pass through the algae screen. So ammonia will be present in the aquarium, but the bacteria immediately convert it to nitrite, and then nitrate, as part of an ongoing process. This is why in a cycled tank with no skimmer, no bio-balls, etc, just Live Rock, you have no ammonia and no nitrite. The bacteria colony adjusts naturally to the levels of waste available in the tank. The fact that a scrubber removes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate efficiently certainly would affect this balanced equation (which is why isn't not really a good idea to do a hard-switch to a scrubber-only system in an established tank), it certainly will not cause a long-term interference in the biological process.

I think your looking at the situation thinking that if the scrubber eats all the ammonia, then the bacteria will not have anything to 'eat', and will die. This is not completely the case. It is simply an adjustment to a new 'set-point'.

Spideybry: add the scrubber whenever you want. If you add in the middle of the cycle, I don't think it will make a difference. (edit: it doesn't matter if you add the scrubber at the beginning, middle, or end of the cycle - it will work well. I didn't mean "I don't think it will make a difference" to imply that it will not work, rather it will work equally as well in any case). As stated above, if you're cycling the tank, the bacteria colony will grow to the point needed based on the food available. Essentially, it appears that a scrubber 'hides' the cycle. The bacteria populations still go through their growth cycle to get established, but there is no big peak of ammonia and nitrite, even though it will still be there. What happens is that the bacteria form on surfaces, one bacteria forms that turns the ammonia into nitrite, and then that builds up in the water column until the colony that eats nitrite grows large enough to consume it all, and then that colony is significantly oversized and essentially dies off to the point where it is sized to consume only what is being produced by the ammonia-eating colony. All of this consumption happens at a microscopic level on all surfaces, where water flow approaches zero, so it's not like nitrite formed by the ammonia consuming bacteria is circulated away immediately, it is available and immediately consumed. The way a scrubber 'hides' the cycle is that it doesn't allow the excess buildup of ammonia and nitrite during the cycle. It also eliminates the bacterial colony die-off factor.

SantaMonica, tell me if I got that right. It sounds really good, but I might be missing something.

[SantaMonica]

First, many folks are not familiar with the differences between "cycling" and "curing", so here is how you can know what to do, regardless:

If the rock was dry (meaning "dead") when you got it, then there is nothing in the rock that you need to keep alive. So "dry" rock, no matter what it's called, will not benefit from a scrubber (or a skimmer either). Preparing dry rock is easy because you WANT the ammonia to build up to high levels, so that the proper bacteria will build up in and on the rock. This bacteria will then remove ammonia when you put the rock in your tank.

"Wet" rock, meaning rock from the ocean or an established tank, is different. It DOES have live stuff in it, which is why it's called "live rock". You want this stuff to stay alive because it filters and feeds your tank. However, much of it died on the way from the ocean to you, and if you put a lot of this rock directly into your tank, you may get too much ammonia from it. So for larger amounts of live rock, you want to "cure" it in a separate container. But here is where the super, gigantic difference between skimmers and scrubbers really shows: The living things in the rock are kept alive by food particles, but are killed by ammonia. So if you only have a skimmer on the container (which removes food, but not ammonia), you take away the food that the little animals need to live, but you let the ammonia stay, which further hurts the animals.

A scrubber, however, leaves all the food in the water, even if the "food" is dead and decaying stuff. This "stuff" is not harmful at all; it's the ammonia that is harmful. The "stuff" is actually food for the critters that came with the rock. Scrubbers remove the ammonia (that's what algae eats), so the critters in the rock will still have food to eat, without being killed by the ammonia. A skimmer, however, removes the food that the critters need to eat, but does not remove the ammonia. Thus the critters are starved, and killed, at the same time. So if the rock is "wet" and is supposed to be "live rock", then using a scrubber instead of a skimmer will allow the rock to keep the most life possible, and in many cases will eliminate a "cycle" altogether.

So if you are curing live "wet" rock, you don't need or want to add anything to get a cycle going. But if you are cycling dry rock, then you will need to add some food to get things rotting.

All this being said, a scrubber will not grow much during cycling; just a light brown film. But this will be enough to keep ammonia down in the water, and keep nuisance algae off of the rocks. But this will allow the screen to get started, and once you start feeding it will grow much faster.

[spideybry]

lol copied and pasted what was on page 1?

[SantaMonica]

Maybe... too much to type each time.

[spideybry]

Well so far the tank is still cycling without the scrubber on it. I have never seen nitrates so high on any of my tanks lol. I will be finishing the scrubber some time soon :D Just need the last few pieces. I will be painting some sections of it as well btw.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/8658ffbe.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/951e5498.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/ebc8f6b6.jpg

[spideybry]

Notched out where the pipe sits and drilled it for the bulk head :) I need to get the lights and a few more plumbing parts and I am good to go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/faa475b3.jpg

[spideybry]

Scrubber is up and running, just waiting for the lights now :D I also need to get a better pump. Right now I am running a mag5. I also added a full load of fish to the tank. I also moved my skimmer over. I ordered 2x2x24w Current T5s. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/c05ad79a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/4033eb79.jpg

Video
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/th_ab7a0bb6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/?action=view&current=ab7a0bb6.mp4)

[mrbncal]

Take the filter socks off, they just catch all the pods yer gonna be producing, as well as any food for your corals/fish

[spideybry]

It is a new tank though :/ It is comin up diiiirty haha.

Should I still do it?

[rygh]

Hm, your posts about "full load of fish" + "coming up dirty", on an new tank, are a concern.
Could be too much too fast. Be very vigilant for another cycle!

For the short term, I would leave filter sock in and even consider siphoning detritus out with water changes.
Then slowly transition and remove sock, once you are sure it is stable.

[spideybry]

Hm, your posts about "full load of fish" + "coming up dirty", on an new tank, are a concern.
Could be too much too fast. Be very vigilant for another cycle!

For the short term, I would leave filter sock in and even consider siphoning detritus out with water changes.
Then slowly transition and remove sock, once you are sure it is stable.

I think it is mainly because of the Vortech kicking up sand. FIlter socks usually do get dirty either way, new tank or not. There is no detritus in the sump. I am waiting a bit before I do remove the socks though haha.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/ ... f747ac.mp4 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/?action=view&current=78f747ac.mp4)

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/ ... 340858.mp4 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/?action=view&current=e2340858.mp4)

[spideybry]

Good growth so far in the bototm 1" of the box. Seems HA is growing on the box and bottom. Do you have any ideas how to keep the tufts of algae that get detached away from your DT? Also I switched to 3000k bulbs. This pic is from a few days ago. I also plan on putting on a Mag12(1200gph) on it. I will throttle it back a bit though to be safe.

Any tips would be appreciated. Socks are off btw, and nitrates are still around 15ppm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/db63b4d8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/spideybry/3fa9a596.jpg

[SantaMonica]

When you clean the screen, use a stopper to plug the drain, and then also clean the box. This will give max filtering. If coralline or carbonate builds up on any surface (usually the bottom in the corners), clean with vinegar. The more smooth and slippery the surface, the less algae will attatch.

Later, when nutrients are under control, you can decide how long to let things build up on the bottom.

[spideybry]

Thanks for the input. I will def do that on the next cleaning. I also installed a mag12 and throttled it back :) The 3000k bulbs are there too :)